I'm a new poster to the site, but have read many of your posts, especially about the draft. I'll try not to re-tread the same discussions, or at least try to bring a slightly different perspective. I am having frightful flashbacks of Thomas Lewis, Derek Brown and Cedric Jones (I can't knock Dave Brown because he played for my alma matter. Giants draft Daniel Jones in the first round in 2020, anyone?? After his redshirt senior year, of course.).
I have one main question -- which answers the QB or no QB debate for me: Does anyone really think that the Jets are currently in a significantly worse short term and long term QB position than the Giants? They have Josh McCown still, who frankly played better than Eli last year and, despite being older, has less tread on his tires (one of the few negatives of the fact that Eli hasn't missed a game in 13 years or whatever--that's a lot of wear and tear). They signed Teddy Bridgewater, a big question mark b/c of his injury but a former first round pick who definitely could come back and be a legit starting caliber QB. They also have Christian Hackenberg. Say what you will about him, but the guy was a 2nd round pick, has size and arm strength to succeed, and hasn't had a real shot yet. He has just as much of a chance to succeed as Davis Webb, if not significantly more. They also have Bryce Petty, although his days are probably numbered. I just don't think the Jets are any worse off than the Giants at the QB position (none of these QBs will likely start for either team next year), yet they clearly thought that the top 3 QBs -- Darnold, Rosen and Allen, in my opinion (or at least 2 of them) -- are good enough to trade away a lot to have a chance to draft. So do a fair number of other teams, apparently.
It worries me that the Giants' brass may conclude that none of these QBs are franchise-worthy QBs or that it's only Darnold--despite the fact that several teams that have decent bridge QBs and developmental prospects seem to be coveting more than one of these guys. I'm personally in the Rosen camp. I think he can be great. I don't buy that his ceiling is lower than Darnold's because Darnold has better improvisational skills outside the pocket, but if the Giants' brass prefers Darnold and he's available, I won't argue with it. But if Darnold goes to Cleveland and the Giants take Barkley or Chubb or trade down, and the Jets draft Rosen, or Allen for that matter, and he becomes one of the best QBs in the league, the Jets become a playoff fixture for the next 10-15 years and the Giants are mired in mediocrity for the next 10 years after Eli retires, I just might become a Jets fan....Not really, but it'll hurt...and I'll just hope the Giants draft Daniel Jones in 2020....
The Giants are acting as if Eli can still play great football.....Can still win Super Bowls. I am not sure about that but he was the best player on the field against Green Bay in their last playoff game...and if OBJ did not drop those early TDs....who know how that game would have gone.
I suspect they would draft Darnold....as he is the safest bet imo. Rosen has major health concerns and Allen has accuracy issues and Baker is just too short.....I suspect ever team has these QBs in different order
Otherwise, they will try to draft players to make this team the best it can be.....small trade downs that allow them to still get one of Chubb, Barkley and Nelson.....and go from there....
As far as the Jets are concern, If they do not draft a QB after giving up 4 premium draft picks.....they will be viewed as a joke.....as at 6, they have had access to the top players
Are they?
Or are they acting like a team that has a beloved incumbent QB with a NTC and a contract structure that would have required them to telegraph their intentions six weeks before the draft (along with all other associated attention) if they tried to get rid of him?
Or are they acting like they might be confident that they can engineer a smooth transition from one franchise QB to another and want to ensure enough overlap to provide for that?
The Giants aren't acting like anything other than a team that recognizes its weaknesses and has actively worked to address them with all available options.
On to the Jets: Yes, McCown did play better last season then Eli. He did so without any “weaponry” or a quality o-line , either . Yes his stats were a glamorized WCO work product . Not disputing otherwise . I’m not a Jets fan. So their moves don’t get emotional responses from me. All I will say is that the Bridgewater signing was gratuitous . Hackenberg stinks ; so does Petty. They were astute to move up.
I’m going to mention the quarterback situations of 2 other teams. The Chargers and Steelers. If they were in the Giants position , both would draft one of the quarterbacks at 2. For reasons that are so obvious that they don’t warrant mentioning . Lastly , if Gettleman goes “build up-build around” with a high value placed on Webb-great. But in so doing he could be screwing this thing up for the next 12 seasons or so. And will justifiable be remembered as an asshole for doing it.
Have the jets ever really had a franchise type quarterback besides namath and maybe O'Brien? Testaverde wasn't there long.
Quarterback desperate team's make quarterback desperate moves and decisions. Maybe they will get lucky this year.
I wouldn't base anything off of what the browns, jets or bills think or do.
The Giants and Broncos are actually very similar---choosing to add a QB Project, versus adding immediate use top talent to teams that self-identify as Playoff Competitors.
If the Giants trade that 2nd pick, it will be to a team that loves one of the QB's(with the Giants passing on the same)---and THAT will be the long term comparison.... between the G's and Their trade partner.
QB is the most important position on the field, and if a guy you like is there, take him! If he isn't, you can't force the pick. Until someone knows exactly how the Giants view the QBs in this draft, nobody knows what they will do with the pick.
I have also seen a lot of people post about the Jets picking right behind us. I would be shocked if the Giants spent more than 5 minutes thinking about what the Jets may do, other than assuming that they moved up to take a QB, and what that would mean if the Giants decided to trade down.
The difference is, the Jets have spent significantly more draft capital on QBs (round 2 2013 G Smith, round 4 2015 Petty, round 2 2016 Hackenberg) without much to show for it. They also traded 3 2nd round picks to move up in this year’s draft, presumably to pick a QB. So in this sense, the Jets are in QB hell, whereas the Giants story is yet to be written.
As George from PA points out, no-one knows how NYG views the current QB class. Unless you feel strongly that any of the 2018 QBs are the real deal, you have to put faith in Gettleman and the NYG scouts.
Ask yourself this - what is the benefit of the public support, completely independent of how sincere it seems? If they're truly in support of Eli, they're under no obligation to announce it. They can just keep him, play him and pay him.
IMO, the very public outpouring of support and confidence is to convince one or both of two separate audiences: other NFL teams in order to keep them uninformed of the Giants' draft intentions; and a sizeable portion of the Giants' fanbase, in order to assuage them after last season.
Ultimately, I just feel as though the Giants have played out this offseason in a way that hasn't tipped their hand at all, and I'm aware of the fact that I tend to view things through a prism that supports my own opinion - that's just human nature.
I've seen you post numerous times about Gettleman and Shurmur having to win quickly or else their jobs could be at risk - might you also be interpreting the offseason through a lens that supports that belief for yourself?
No Downside. Zero....
Unless I am missing something....
On to the Jets: Yes, McCown did play better last season then Eli. He did so without any “weaponry” or a quality o-line , either . Yes his stats were a glamorized WCO work product . Not disputing otherwise . I’m not a Jets fan. So their moves don’t get emotional responses from me. All I will say is that the Bridgewater signing was gratuitous . Hackenberg stinks ; so does Petty. They were astute to move up.
I’m going to mention the quarterback situations of 2 other teams. The Chargers and Steelers. If they were in the Giants position , both would draft one of the quarterbacks at 2. For reasons that are so obvious that they don’t warrant mentioning . Lastly , if Gettleman goes “build up-build around” with a high value placed on Webb-great. But in so doing he could be screwing this thing up for the next 12 seasons or so. And will justifiable be remembered as an asshole for doing it.
Sean Paytons system was vastly different when following Fassels philosophy vs. when he was calling the shots as a HC.
TC ran a system tailored to Elis strengths. MacAdoo called the plays and helped with strategy but was given directive what the general gameplan and philosophy would be.
When Mac ran the show he ran the offense according to his vision. Instead of continuing to tailor the offense to his QB , it looked like he was trying to do many things outside of Elis strengths.
Eli the consummate good soldier never complained nor made a stink about it.
One of Shurnurs greatest strenghts is working within the confines of what is given to him and looking to maximize on the specific skillsets of the players. Not obstinately forcing a player to adjust to your idea of what is best.
QB is the most important position on the field, and if a guy you like is there, take him! If he isn't, you can't force the pick. Until someone knows exactly how the Giants view the QBs in this draft, nobody knows what they will do with the pick.
I have also seen a lot of people post about the Jets picking right behind us. I would be shocked if the Giants spent more than 5 minutes thinking about what the Jets may do, other than assuming that they moved up to take a QB, and what that would mean if the Giants decided to trade down.
Of course you also have to hope they arent totally missing the boat on a QBs true talent level either. A few reports and a couple BBI insiders have said they like Darnold then its a big drop off. To discount Rosen would be a big mistake. He has the whole package. The injury stuff (Solder has had 4 concussion at a position where you get jarred more than QB) and character stuff is overblown.
Then, if Shurmur is really the quarterback whisperer, when Eli moves on (by his choice), the same GM and HC can transition the team for the future, regardless of who the QB is.
Is that too much to ask for?
Then, if Shurmur is really the quarterback whisperer, when Eli moves on (by his choice), the same GM and HC can transition the team for the future, regardless of who the QB is.
Is that too much to ask for?
Ivan be encouraged, I do believe this is within the realm of possibility with this new regime.
Slinging it all around field, extending plays when he had to, pin-point accuracy, excellent footwork and guts standing in pocket many times too.
Most impressed with how he hit his targets so precisely...away from the defender and allowing for yards after the catch.
He's our guy...
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
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much more difficult than it has to be. If the Giants believe one of these QBs is a franchise QB and they can get him (or one of them if they see multiple) at #2, then they will draft him. Eli will start next year while the new guy learns. If they have serious reservations about the QBs available at #2, take the best player available at another position.
QB is the most important position on the field, and if a guy you like is there, take him! If he isn't, you can't force the pick. Until someone knows exactly how the Giants view the QBs in this draft, nobody knows what they will do with the pick.
I have also seen a lot of people post about the Jets picking right behind us. I would be shocked if the Giants spent more than 5 minutes thinking about what the Jets may do, other than assuming that they moved up to take a QB, and what that would mean if the Giants decided to trade down.
Of course you also have to hope they arent totally missing the boat on a QBs true talent level either. A few reports and a couple BBI insiders have said they like Darnold then its a big drop off. To discount Rosen would be a big mistake. He has the whole package. The injury stuff (Solder has had 4 concussion at a position where you get jarred more than QB) and character stuff is overblown.
If DG and Shurmur don't like Rosen (or any other QB at 2) I trust their judgment. It still baffles me that some fans think they are in a better spot to assess that with far less information and experience.
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Eli played under the worst offensive system in the NFL the last 2 years. Coupled with a bad OL and losing his top 3 WRs
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
Does Eli Manning play defense as well? How many games under Tom Coughlin did the offense put up enough to win, only for the defense to blow it? Remember the 52-49 loss to New Orleans. The problem with Steve Spagnuolo's defensive scheme is that when injuries happened the defense took a nosedive. It was a system based on everybody reading the offense the same way and reacting to what the other defenders were doing. I gave up counting the number of botched assignments because the CB thought he would have S help over the top that was not there.
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Eli played under the worst offensive system in the NFL the last 2 years. Coupled with a bad OL and losing his top 3 WRs
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
It doesn't explain the last 5 years, but it does offer insight into the problems under mcadoo. As far as the 3 prior years, there was a different set of issues. Was Eli part of some of the problems? Sure he was. When a team is not playing well there is plenty of blame to spread around.
We will find out soon enough how much was Eli, how much was personnel and how much was coaching.
Imo, I think Eli will have a very good year under a coach who will tailor an offense to his strengths, a general manager motivated to improve the offensive line and a coach committed to actually running the ball with effectiveness.
I don't think that's what he's saying. He also spoke of 10-15 years. Though 15 is extreme. But over the next 10 year how would it look if the Giants passed on a QB that the Jets took and he was great for a long time. That is also a part of his post.
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In comment 13914558 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
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Eli played under the worst offensive system in the NFL the last 2 years. Coupled with a bad OL and losing his top 3 WRs
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
It doesn't explain the last 5 years, but it does offer insight into the problems under mcadoo. As far as the 3 prior years, there was a different set of issues. Was Eli part of some of the problems? Sure he was. When a team is not playing well there is plenty of blame to spread around.
We will find out soon enough how much was Eli, how much was personnel and how much was coaching.
Imo, I think Eli will have a very good year under a coach who will tailor an offense to his strengths, a general manager motivated to improve the offensive line and a coach committed to actually running the ball with effectiveness.
I agree. He will likely have a very good year. But then what? he will be 38 yrs old. That’s not much of a window to build around.
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In comment 13914558 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
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We will find out soon enough how much was Eli, how much was personnel and how much was coaching.
If he has a bad year this year it won't tell us a thing about 3-4 years ago.
I agree with those who say that a condition for DG and Shurmer getting their jobs was to say that Eli has years left and to promise that he will be the starter going into next year. I personally think/hope that Eli has another year, maybe two max, of pretty decent play, but one problem with being the iron man that he has been is that he has probably played another year or two of football games than his contemporaries like Rivers and Ben. That's a lot of additional wear and tear on his body--although I agree with the commenter who said that the Chargers and Steelers would very likely take a QB if they had a top 5 pick as well. Denver is a good comparison for the Giants too--I can't see Elway passing on Rosen or Allen unless he thinks that Paxton Lynch still has a shot to be good.
Two further questions:
(1) Does anyone know whether the Giants really tried to move up to draft Patrick Mahomes last year? I know that that was with prior management, but I would imagine that John Mara had to at least sign off on that strategy, if that was in fact their goal last year. I have to think he will have some say in this draft--even if it's just telling DG that he has to convince him why one of these top QBs isn't good enough. I would imagine Mara is the one guy who really doesn't want to go back to the post-Simms, pre-Eli era.
(2) Although I assume that no one knows the answer to this, for those who have closely followed the Giants' pre-draft buzz over the years (something that is far more prolific nowadays than it was in the days when Mel Kiper's draft guide book was one of the only ways to get info on the draft), what do you make of the buzz that the Giants only like Darnold and don't like Rosen, or are split between Darnold and Allen as their top QBs. Is there anything to be read from it one way or another, any signals that the Giants are purposely giving, or is it all just an attempt to sow confusion and keep everything secret?
Imo, Eli has always gotten the "support" and contract his level of play merited at the time
Eli is a great Giant. He is not The Giants.
I did not stop watching when LT or Strahan or Carson or Simms or Bavaro stopped being able to be on the Giants. The same will be true when Eli's career succumbs to time.
We wont know his level of play until after the first six games of 2018. Pre season will tell us nothing. One or three games will tell us nothing (he has always had maddingly bad plays admidst excellent ones).
What is more, I remind us that even 2008-2011 Eli with this team would likely not produce a winning playoff season.
Yes with a very very good overall team he can likely still win (Peyton did). The 2018 and maybe even the 2019 Giants will not yet be that team
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In comment 13914710 twostepgiants said:
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In comment 13914558 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
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Eli played under the worst offensive system in the NFL the last 2 years. Coupled with a bad OL and losing his top 3 WRs
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
It doesn't explain the last 5 years, but it does offer insight into the problems under mcadoo. As far as the 3 prior years, there was a different set of issues. Was Eli part of some of the problems? Sure he was. When a team is not playing well there is plenty of blame to spread around.
We will find out soon enough how much was Eli, how much was personnel and how much was coaching.
Imo, I think Eli will have a very good year under a coach who will tailor an offense to his strengths, a general manager motivated to improve the offensive line and a coach committed to actually running the ball with effectiveness.
I agree. He will likely have a very good year. But then what? he will be 38 yrs old. That’s not much of a window to build around.
I think it will really depend on how he plays. The thinking will continuously change more so with us fans. Eli could benefit greatly from an effective running game to take the pressure off of him. There are so many variables that have to be played out to really see what the future will be
If we draft a quarterback with the 2nd pick. Then of course everything changes because I can't see Eli being here beyond next season
Either way, it will be interesting to see it all play out
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In comment 13914724 TrueBlue56 said:
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In comment 13914710 twostepgiants said:
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In comment 13914558 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
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Eli played under the worst offensive system in the NFL the last 2 years. Coupled with a bad OL and losing his top 3 WRs
How does that explain 33-46 over the last 5 years?
It doesn't explain the last 5 years, but it does offer insight into the problems under mcadoo. As far as the 3 prior years, there was a different set of issues. Was Eli part of some of the problems? Sure he was. When a team is not playing well there is plenty of blame to spread around.
We will find out soon enough how much was Eli, how much was personnel and how much was coaching.
Imo, I think Eli will have a very good year under a coach who will tailor an offense to his strengths, a general manager motivated to improve the offensive line and a coach committed to actually running the ball with effectiveness.
I agree. He will likely have a very good year. But then what? he will be 38 yrs old. That’s not much of a window to build around.
I think it will really depend on how he plays. The thinking will continuously change more so with us fans. Eli could benefit greatly from an effective running game to take the pressure off of him. There are so many variables that have to be played out to really see what the future will be
If we draft a quarterback with the 2nd pick. Then of course everything changes because I can't see Eli being here beyond next season
Either way, it will be interesting to see it all play out
Agreed.
At #2 the investment is too high both in dollars and a premium draft pick to let him sit for 2 years. If they go QB at 2 , it is very likely Elis last hoorah next year (at least here with us).
A guy drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round Lauletta, Rudolph, Mike White etc that dynamic of sitting longer changes entirely.
In comment 13914658 Ivan15 said:
Then, if Shurmur is really the quarterback whisperer, when Eli moves on (by his choice), the same GM and HC can transition the team for the future, regardless of who the QB is.
Is that too much to ask for?
RetroJint : 4/15/2018 7:33 am : link : reply
Note above : Eli had been in the same system for 3 seasons , not 2. Not that the system was dramatically different than any other in the league-it wasn’t -but it must be said fairly that Eli’s one decent season in the last 6 was under McAdoo.
The system in 2015 in TC's last year was most definitely not the same system. This has been posted before, but the differences were numerous and significant. I won't rehash everything, but here are some of the high points:
- 2015 was varied in personeel formation. 16 and 17 featured the 11 personnel grouping at a higher percentage than not just every team, but a historical high
- In 2015, we were among the league leaders in plays of 20+ yards. In 16 and 17 we were at the bottom and near the bottom
- In 2015, the amount of balls thrown 10+ yards was 14% higher than in 16 or 17.
2015 was TC's offense with Mac calling plays. 16 and 17 was Mac's offense.
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Interesting points
RetroJint : 4/15/2018 7:33 am : link : reply
Note above : Eli had been in the same system for 3 seasons , not 2. Not that the system was dramatically different than any other in the league-it wasn’t -but it must be said fairly that Eli’s one decent season in the last 6 was under McAdoo.
The system in 2015 in TC's last year was most definitely not the same system. This has been posted before, but the differences were numerous and significant. I won't rehash everything, but here are some of the high points:
- 2015 was varied in personeel formation. 16 and 17 featured the 11 personnel grouping at a higher percentage than not just every team, but a historical high
- In 2015, we were among the league leaders in plays of 20+ yards. In 16 and 17 we were at the bottom and near the bottom
- In 2015, the amount of balls thrown 10+ yards was 14% higher than in 16 or 17.
2015 was TC's offense with Mac calling plays. 16 and 17 was Mac's offense.
It's so damn obvious that even the most novice viewer should have been able to see it, honestly.