Does anybody find it weird that the media has very little to say about Rosen to the Giants? Ben Allbright is really one of the only media members to mention that possibility. Sy said if the Giants go QB it'll be Rosen. Colin mentioned something about him last week. Other then that he's barely mentioned. Everything else is Barkley, Chubb, trade down or that Darnold is the only QB the Giants want.
I just think it's very strange that they have no interest in the player they've met with most. The guy our one of our Owners flew all the way across the country to have dinner with.
Yet we didn't hear anything about Mara traveling anywhere else for dinner. Yes he may have had dinner with other prospects when they visited the team, but I'm sure Rosen did as well.
The media has just been completely wrong about basically everything we've done since we hired Gettleman that it's hard for me to believe they have any idea what we want to do in the draft. Albert Breer said we don't like Rosen. Yet we met with him at the combine. Met with him before his Pro Day & then went to his Pro Day, held a private workout in Cali & both of our Owners had dinner with him before that. Then we brought him in for a 2 day visit to NY. Seems like a lot of resources & time being spent on someone they don't like.
I can see a comparison to Jay Cutler, though.
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In comment 13915961 Colin@gbn said:
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the fact that Mara went all the way to west coast to have dinner with the kid is about as telling a tell as you are going to get in the draft business short of a team announcing outright before the draft who they are taking - but are worried about the off-chance that the Browns deal with someone else like the Jets.
Was it ever confirmed that John Mara attended the dinner? I know there was some conflicting reports at the time on whether it was John or Chris Mara who was there.
Ralph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
John Mara said not to read anything into the dinner he and Steve Tisch had with UCLA QB Josh Rosen. He said he'll be having dinner with a lot of the top guys in the draft.
Twitter link - ( New Window )
LOL What else would he say? By all means, read into the fact I went to dinner with him?
And yes JT there is so much out there right now it is hard to tell fact from smokescreen. However, I would be absolutely shocked if the Giants take Barkley at #2. (I would just sort of be shocked if they took Chubb who at least can rush the other guys passer!)The absolute value of that pick is the QBs and you either take one or hold up another team in a trade. Even Buffalo at 12 and 22. Would you trade Barkley for Marcus Davenport, Mike McGlinchey and Isaaih Oliver (in 2) plus an extra #1 in 2109.
here's why you don't trade and take the QB. You are very likely going to be in a situation within the next couple of years here you have to give all those extra picks back plus maybe more to move back up to get your QB. Time will tell though.
I don't know many owners who go and meet with draft prospects. I know Howie Rosman went to meet Wentz prior to his Pro Day and the Browns owner went to meet Allen & Darnold. Which we know they are drafting 1 of them. To me it's a huge deal and the media never really picked up on it.
And yes JT there is so much out there right now it is hard to tell fact from smokescreen. However, I would be absolutely shocked if the Giants take Barkley at #2. (I would just sort of be shocked if they took Chubb who at least can rush the other guys passer!)The absolute value of that pick is the QBs and you either take one or hold up another team in a trade. Even Buffalo at 12 and 22. Would you trade Barkley for Marcus Davenport, Mike McGlinchey and Isaaih Oliver (in 2) plus an extra #1 in 2109.
here's why you don't trade and take the QB. You are very likely going to be in a situation within the next couple of years here you have to give all those extra picks back plus maybe more to move back up to get your QB. Time will tell though.
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If there's a Jeff George in this draft, it's Josh Allen. Not Josh Rosen.
I can see a comparison to Jay Cutler, though.
The difference is that Cutler doesn't care enough to be a great franchise QB. The talent is there but the work ethic and desire just aren't.
A)We know that now, but that wasn't the consensus on Cutler at the time.
B)It remains to be seen how much desire Rosen actually has.
Hitdog being mum is the surest sign yet that the Giants haven't set their board or made up their minds yet :). The closest we've got was a month or so ago when a poster suggested liking Chubb was a smokescreen and he said it wasn't. Maybe that means he's their target but it's hardly an endorsement. Who doesn't like Chubb?
Gettleman converted to Christianity.
From newyorkjets.com....
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and the empty suit Mara . Rosen will be our guy . For how long we will see. Such is life. Surprise me. Hope we win the SB with him but he will not be ELI resilence wise. MO
Gettleman converted to Christianity.
only if the guy was a religious nut and it INTERFERED with playing football, otherwise no one cares.
I'm for Chubb in a trade down to 4 only.
I'd be okay with Darnold, as he seems like a guy with a good future in the league as well. I want no part of Mayfield in NY (though he'd be fine most elsewhere), and Allen is sketchier the more I see of him.
I'd be disappointed but wouldn't throw the remote if we went Barkley or Nelson. Chubb I'd be tempted to, only because I don't think he fits our scheme anymore.
I admit though -- I'm one of those guys who tends to believe that a player, especially a QB, who was very highly touted out of high school, then checked almost all of the boxes and expectations in college and remained equally highly touted throughout college and goes into the draft as a legit first round prospect, those guys tend to have success, or at least tend not to be busts, in the NFL.
Just off of memory, players who stick out to me who were very highly rated (mostly five star) prospects out of high school and were first round prospects in the NFL include Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Matthew Stafford, Ryan Luck, Cam Newton, Jameis Winston, Deshaun Watson. There are probably more in the last 15-20 years who I can't think of. These guys all had the eye-popping talent from early on, and then proved their metal in college. Many highly touted QBs out of high school just don't live up to the same potential in college or get side tracked for one reason or another. It takes talent, luck and very hard work to make it through that scrutiny and land on top. Lower tiered NFL caliber highly touted QBs I recall recently are Christian Hackenberg, Matt Barkley, Chris Simms, Mark Sanchez, Jimmy Claussen and Ryan Mallet, but Sanchez was the only one of those guys who was heading into the draft as a sure fire first round prospect. So he's the only one I can really think of in that category who was a true bust--and I personally felt he was always overrated because of the Carson Palmer/Matt Leinart success at USC. The one other guy I remember from way back who fits that mold was Todd Maranovich (also USC), but he had severe off field issues. I know you can't put too much emphasis on these sorts of comparisons, but I do think there may be something to it.
That said, putting Rosen's "character" issues and concussion concerns aside, can anyone point to real weaknesses in his game as a first round prospect, as compared to other top prospects who have come through over the years. His game acumen is supposedly equal to or superior to Peyton's at that point in his career; he has probably a better arm than Peyton -- Eli had a stronger arm than Peyton too, but Peyton was better because the guy studied and knew everything about football, while Eli was supposedly more of a typical teenager in high school and college; he is very accurate, has great mechanics and footwork in the pocket; he's probably a better athlete than Eli and Peyton were in college based on his combine numbers and tennis background, and supposedly isn't a bad basketball player either; he's almost the same size and weight as Eli was when he came out a year later at age 22, and at barely 21 years old, the kid should easily be capable of adding 10-20 pounds of muscle to his frame by the time he's 23-24, almost from natural physical maturation alone, not to mention an NFL workout regimen.
The one downside I'm aware of, as a pure football player, is that he doesn't appear to make a lot of plays when things break down in the pocket, some of his off target throws occur when he's under pressure, and he doesn't show a propensity to extend the play with his feet, even if he has the raw athleticism to do so. This may well be a legitimate weakness, just as it is with most pocket passers over the years -- with Peyton, with Eli, with Tom Brady, with Dan Marino. I'd love to have a great pure pocket passer who is also a phenomenal athlete -- I actually preferred Ben to Eli in 2004 -- , but John Elway and Andrew Luck only come across once every 25-30 years, and despite Luck's size, he's struggled with many injury issues in the NFL that he didn't have in college.
What am I missing -- in terms of his ability as a pure QB prospect?
I put the "character" stuff to the side because I just don't buy it. You don't become that technically superior and intelligent about the game without putting in more work than anyone else; it's not something that just happens naturally. And watching his games, the guy has taken numerous shots and popped back up; his physical toughness doesn't seem to be a fair topic of criticism. Concussions are an issue, I concede, but many players have had concussions in college and been OK in the NFL. And realistically, if any of these top QB prospects gets a $25-35M deal, with $20M guaranteed, and then suffers a serious head injury (or numerous serious head injuries) three years in and is told he may suffer from depression or uncontrollable violent behavior or bad memory loss by age 50 if he doesn't retire, well each of these QBs would be fools if they don't take the $20M and walk away. It has nothing to do with whether they grew up wealthy or what they can do after football, certainly not with $10+M in the bank after taxes; it's just common sense. And if any of them have families, the thought of their families alone would force them to retire. So the issue that he'd be more likely to walk away than another guy doesn't hold a lot of water for me. The question as to whether he will be predisposed to getting more concussions is a question that the Giants and every other team have to do all they can to figure out from a medical perspective. But few people seem be suggesting that his concussions were particularly severe.
Buffalo: Traded down last year, looking to mortgage future to trade up now;
Rams: Traded down and passed up RGIII (which broke right for them), traded up for Goff;
Houston: Mortgaged 4th pick overall to get Watson and 3rd pick in 2nd round to rid themselves of Osweiler because of QB hell.
If you have a chance to get a QB, you get a QB. You don't draft a RB, even if it is a potentially great one. And you know why? Because you can get great RBs in the latter rounds. You cannot get great QBs in the latter rounds, barring a huge exception to the rule.
Colin: I'm all on board with the Giants taking Rosen. I am hoping he is the pick, and your information is correct.
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Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
Passing on a QB that has a Hall of Fame career with the Jets is the worst thing the team can do.
Yep.
I'd be okay with Darnold, as he seems like a guy with a good future in the league as well. I want no part of Mayfield in NY (though he'd be fine most elsewhere), and Allen is sketchier the more I see of him.
I'd be disappointed but wouldn't throw the remote if we went Barkley or Nelson. Chubb I'd be tempted to, only because I don't think he fits our scheme anymore.
Sorry but I don't think you "roll the dice" with a #2 pick. You love a guy who's your #1 target and you draft him with conviction and no reservations or you trade back.
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
Substitute apostrophes for pronouns.... - ( New Window )
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone.
Thanks to everyone - one of the most interesting recent threads on BBI.
If Chubb or Barkley are only OK it kills you just like the QB would. It’s the same rookie deal. After the rookie deal you can drop the player. QB or not. Barkley is instantly one of the highest paid guys at his position. If he isn’t special it hurts just like the QB would.
If Rosen is there and Giants keep the pick he’s the guy. Just too much value for a QB with his throwing skills and brain. This kid was running Peyton Manning’s offense in 8th grade. He’s got everything you want.
If Browns take Allen then Rosen goes 2 it won’t matter who makes the pick. If Giants don’t take him they trade down and some other team moves up for Rosen.
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Three more things. The first is the giants like Webb. The second thing is there are exceptions. The cowboys, jags, and rams don't regret taking zeke, fournette, or Gurley. Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
How do you proove someone leaked info? You'd have to threaten to fire whole departments. That seems unlikely.
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In comment 13916975 jtgiants said:
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Three more things. The first is the giants like Webb. The second thing is there are exceptions. The cowboys, jags, and rams don't regret taking zeke, fournette, or Gurley. Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
How do you proove someone leaked info? You'd have to threaten to fire whole departments. That seems unlikely.
It's not about proving it. There are ways of plugging leaks, and there mere threat of termination of employment stops the majority of leaks.
And, as someone said above, the advantage of picking a QB at 2 - if you hit they give you such a salary advantage. Even if you hit on a RB at 2, you are already paying that RB as one of the best in the game; it is not worth it salary-wise. It simply is not cost effective to pick a RB in the top 5.
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In comment 13916975 jtgiants said:
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Three more things. The first is the giants like Webb. The second thing is there are exceptions. The cowboys, jags, and rams don't regret taking zeke, fournette, or Gurley. Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
How do you proove someone leaked info? You'd have to threaten to fire whole departments. That seems unlikely.
Here's how - you make each of them only privy to part of the info, and/or give each of them intentionally incorrect info. Whatever version of the story comes out in the press identifies your leak.
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In comment 13917373 Giants34 said:
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In comment 13916975 jtgiants said:
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Three more things. The first is the giants like Webb. The second thing is there are exceptions. The cowboys, jags, and rams don't regret taking zeke, fournette, or Gurley. Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
How do you proove someone leaked info? You'd have to threaten to fire whole departments. That seems unlikely.
Here's how - you make each of them only privy to part of the info, and/or give each of them intentionally incorrect info. Whatever version of the story comes out in the press identifies your leak.
Yeah, but I question how realistic it is that Dave would have time to play Mission:Impossible secret agent stuff like this.
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In comment 13917457 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13917373 Giants34 said:
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In comment 13916975 jtgiants said:
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Three more things. The first is the giants like Webb. The second thing is there are exceptions. The cowboys, jags, and rams don't regret taking zeke, fournette, or Gurley. Finally, taking the wrong qb at top of the draft is the worst thing a team can do
In the Zeke draft, the Cowboys drafted Zeke then Jaylen Smith. Do you think they would prefer Ramsey and Derrick Henry instead? You can get high impact RBs later in the draft.
I don't know what everyone is hearing. JonC has said Barkley/Chubb/Nelson/Darnold, but Colin has said, overwhelmingly, Rosen. This is what I know: this offseason, since Gettleman took over, basically no one, not here, not the press, no one, has gotten anything right (with the possible exception of Hitdog). (That's not meant as an insult, by the way, I love the rumors.) People thought we had hired McD, but that was not the case. The press constantly speculated on different people as the favorites, but those proved to be false as well.
We were also met with many other surprises. Basically, the Giants have done a much better job of plugging the leaks that plagued the organization for years under Reese. Right now everyone is saying the Giants are interested in the draft's top prospects. How hard is that to do? I imagine most teams have interest in the top prospects in the draft.
Gettleman is a bad ass, and my bet is he came in and said if anyone leaks info, they are gone. That probably stopped that nonsense. I underestimated how important that aspect of our job was, as we had major information leaks.
How do you proove someone leaked info? You'd have to threaten to fire whole departments. That seems unlikely.
Here's how - you make each of them only privy to part of the info, and/or give each of them intentionally incorrect info. Whatever version of the story comes out in the press identifies your leak.
Yeah, but I question how realistic it is that Dave would have time to play Mission:Impossible secret agent stuff like this.
I guess it depends how much of a competitive disadvantage one believes the leaks to be, and conversely, how much of an advantage it might be to actively run a misinformation campaign.
If you're going to run a misinformation campaign anyway, you might as well run multiple iterations of it and kill two birds with one stone.