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NGT: Elliott or Ramsey?

Strahan91 : 5/2/2018 6:00 pm
I’ve seen a few writers mention in regards to the Barkley pick that as good as Zeke is, the Cowboys would likely be a better team with Ramsey and would take him if they could do it over again.

Forgetting for a moment that Barkley is a better prospect than Elliott was, is the above true? I personally don’t think so and was surprised to read that several times. When Elliott played the full 16 games in 2016, they won 13 games. They don’t have a ton of talent on defense so they weren’t winning 13 games in 2016 or 2017 with Ramsey. Adding a single corner doesn’t add to your win total like controlling the clock, keeping your defense rested (making it more effective) and opening up opportunities for the quarterback. Without Elliott, Dak didn’t just look pedestrian like he did with him in 2017, but he looked terrible. Other than a much better QB and possibly an absolutely dominant pass rusher (think Von Miller or a healthy JJ Watt), it’s hard to see how any player could effect Dallas in the way that Elliott has.

Most point to the Cowboys 3-3 record without Elliott but they didn’t hit double digits in points for 3 weeks. They beat the Giants and Raiders who by all accounts were terrible teams and had largely given up at that point. They did easily beat the Skins but Cousins was sacked 4 times in that game, turned the ball over 3 times and Dallas had a special teams TD. While the score looks lopsided today, a lot had to go right for them to win that game given that Dak threw for all of 100 yards. Morris did have a big game but Washington has the worst run D in football and he wasn’t nearly as effective in other games during Elliott’s absence.

What do you think bbi? Am I crazy? I could see the argument made in favor of Ramsey having a lengthier career or him being far cleaner off the field but as football players I just don’t see where that conclusion comes from.
Ramsey is amazing  
robbieballs2003 : 5/2/2018 6:07 pm : link
But I agree. Adding one corner to that D isn't going to help out all that much especially when they play a ton of cover two leaving the corners minimized.
Elliott is a very good back, but both in college and in the pros  
Ira : 5/2/2018 6:11 pm : link
he benefitted by running behind good offensive lines. I think Barkley's going to be a better back. Our o-line is better, but not in the class of the Cowboys line.

Regarding Ramsey, he's a very special corner. He may become the best corner in the league.
Ramsey vs Beckham twice a year would be fun to watch  
est1986 : 5/2/2018 6:11 pm : link
Can’t argue against the Zeke pick, other than the suspension aspect, it looks like a really smart pick.
The cowturds success lies with their oline, once it deteriorat so will  
SterlingArcher : 5/2/2018 6:12 pm : link
their office. Prescott benefited from that oline, let's see how he plays when his oline breaks down.
Dude  
huygens20 : 5/2/2018 6:13 pm : link
It’s reallt not even close


Ramsey, whose a top 5 cb already, if not top 3, is probably 2x as valuable than Elliot When it comes to win contribution. When it comes time to pay Elliot and Ramsey, this will be reflected in their salaries too.

Positional value matters

Qb
Edge rusher/de
Cb
Ot
Wr

In that order ^
Its a marter of  
sharpshooter66 : 5/2/2018 6:18 pm : link
personal philosophy. The whole value chart is blown way out of proportion on this site. Teams pick their guy based on what they want to do schematically and dont look back.
Strictly ability and production I’d probably take Elliot  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 6:23 pm : link
but knowing his character I’d go with Ramsey.
RE: Its a marter of  
huygens20 : 5/2/2018 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13951505 sharpshooter66 said:
Quote:
personal philosophy. The whole value chart is blown way out of proportion on this site. Teams pick their guy based on what they want to do schematically and dont look back.



False. You pick guys that force touchdowns and prevent them

qbs, pass rushers, cbs
Ramsey  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 6:29 pm : link
And it’s not close. It’s a passing league with rules tilted in the passing offense’s favor.

Having a corner who could shut down half the field is more valuable.
Taking away one opponent's  
allstarjim : 5/2/2018 6:35 pm : link
Weapons is a powerful thing with respect to winning games. However, it is not more important than ball control and the ability to score from anywhere on the field.

Elliott does more to contribute to winning games than Ramsey. The latter is a stone cold baller, a bad ass, and I would want him on my team. But I would still take Elliott, because controlling the ball is an even better way of stopping an opponent's offense than having great players stop them. In one case they aren't even on the field.
RE: Taking away one opponent's  
huygens20 : 5/2/2018 6:39 pm : link
In comment 13951539 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Weapons is a powerful thing with respect to winning games. However, it is not more important than ball control and the ability to score from anywhere on the field.

Elliott does more to contribute to winning games than Ramsey. The latter is a stone cold baller, a bad ass, and I would want him on my team. But I would still take Elliott, because controlling the ball is an even better way of stopping an opponent's offense than having great players stop them. In one case they aren't even on the field.


the difference between a guy who averages 5 ypc and 3.7 ypc

and a guy

50 passer rating and 100 passer rating against


is not even close
Cornerback is not a position that you can get production from  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2018 6:42 pm : link
with less than brand name talent. It's one of those positions that's not scheme or roster dependent. Revis would still be Revis playing behind a subpar pass rush.
The character off the field crap  
djm : 5/2/2018 6:44 pm : link
Sways me to say Ramsey.

Zeke was a boon to that team, likely a bigger boon than Ramsey would have been the last two years, but zeke is a ticking time bomb and Ramsey is getting better and better.
The analysts saying the Cowboys would be better off with  
Mike in NJ : 5/2/2018 6:49 pm : link
Ramsay over Elliot are probably the same ones that are criticizing the Browns for taking Denzel Ward 4th overall. I have seen several people, most recently Mike Lombardi, state that taking a CB that high in the draft is a waste because "cornerbacks don't matter, it's all about the pass rush."

Look at how Dallas has performed with and without out Elliot, check out their record when he has played vs. when he hasn't played. They are significantly better with Ezekiel Elliot on the field.
RE: Dude  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13951499 huygens20 said:
Quote:
It’s reallt not even close


Ramsey, whose a top 5 cb already, if not top 3, is probably 2x as valuable than Elliot When it comes to win contribution. When it comes time to pay Elliot and Ramsey, this will be reflected in their salaries too.

Positional value matters

Qb
LT
Edge rusher/de
Cb
Ot
Wr

In that order ^


Actually I heard a former GM break down the positional values the other day. I've made the change in your post to reflect the proper order.
Meant to remove your OT  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 6:57 pm : link
from the list. But that's what he said with a pretty good break down of why as well. Basically said

QB is the best player on a team. LT (usually because most QB's are right handed) protects the most valuable player. Then LDE because he attacks the best player in the game.
Arghhhh  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 6:58 pm : link
RDE not LDE
RE: The analysts saying the Cowboys would be better off with  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2018 7:00 pm : link
In comment 13951579 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
They are significantly better with Ezekiel Elliot on the field.



Indisputable.

They also got subpar QB play from a second-year player that hasn't figured it out yet. Also a contributing factor. Their best offensive weapon other than Elliot last season was a 900 year old TE with one foot into retirement.
Legitimate argument to be made about value of Ramsey over EE,  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/2/2018 7:05 pm : link
but do I think the Cowboys would take Ramsey if they had a chance to do it all over? I honestly don't.

The same writer as the OP cites also said the Jags wouldn't select Fournette if they had a chance to do it all over again. That one is different because the alternative might be DeShaun Watson.

I have become annoyed by some writers' insistence of focusing solely on positional value as opposed to individual prospects. If individual prospects no longer matter, we might as well select players by choosing from buckets that say "Quarterback" or "Left Tackle".
RE: The analysts saying the Cowboys would be better off with  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 7:25 pm : link
In comment 13951579 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
Ramsay over Elliot are probably the same ones that are criticizing the Browns for taking Denzel Ward 4th overall. I have seen several people, most recently Mike Lombardi, state that taking a CB that high in the draft is a waste because "cornerbacks don't matter, it's all about the pass rush."

Look at how Dallas has performed with and without out Elliot, check out their record when he has played vs. when he hasn't played. They are significantly better with Ezekiel Elliot on the field.


Wasn’t their LT hurt the same time Zeke was out?
RE: Taking away one opponent's  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 7:25 pm : link
In comment 13951539 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Weapons is a powerful thing with respect to winning games. However, it is not more important than ball control and the ability to score from anywhere on the field.

Elliott does more to contribute to winning games than Ramsey. The latter is a stone cold baller, a bad ass, and I would want him on my team. But I would still take Elliott, because controlling the ball is an even better way of stopping an opponent's offense than having great players stop them. In one case they aren't even on the field.


You could argue that being able to shut down the opponents offense is a form of ball control.
You can make the argument for either  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 7:31 pm : link
the “easily” posts are terrible.
RE: You can make the argument for either  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 7:35 pm : link
In comment 13951626 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
the “easily” posts are terrible.


That’s why the league pays cornerbacks more on average than running backs.
It’s not just Ramsey for Elliott  
WillVAB : 5/2/2018 8:05 pm : link
Dallas could’ve went Ramsey then Derrick Henry or Kenyan Drake in the third. I think both backs would’ve been just as productive as Zeke. Even more do bc neither has been suspended.

Dallas OL makes life easy for RBs. I think there’s a good chance they wouldn’t miss a beat if Bo Scarborough had to get the lion’s share of the carries for whatever reason.
RE: RE: You can make the argument for either  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 8:13 pm : link
In comment 13951632 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951626 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


the “easily” posts are terrible.



That’s why the league pays cornerbacks more on average than running backs.


Amazing argument, really, I can’t believe you thought of something so brilliant.
I've written on this before here  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 8:14 pm : link
I'm firmly in the Ramsey camp. A few things to remember about Elliot and the boys:

1. The Cowboys won three games the year prior to drafting him. However, people seem to forget that they played that year without Tony Romo and (I think?) Dez Bryant and Sean Lee for significant chunks. It's not like they added Elliot and that was the only change.

2. The running back the year prior was Darren McFadden. A lot of Rbs would have been a significant improvement.

3. When Elliot was out this year, Alf Morris averaged over 5 yards a game. Elliot's absence isn't why they weren't winning, imo. That had more to do with the complete lack of weapons in the passing game and some losses on the OL (leary). The OL was even further weakened when Tyron Smith got hurt.

Ultimately, I think you can get sufficient production at RB with a lesser investment. It's harder to do the same at CB and the cap savings make the CB even more valuable in terms of building a roster.
And Dallas’ OL won’t be the same for long  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 8:15 pm : link
they can’t afford to keep them all, so putting any old body back there isn’t going to be a viable option.
RE: Dude  
the mike : 5/2/2018 8:37 pm : link
In comment 13951499 huygens20 said:
Quote:
It’s reallt not even close


Ramsey, whose a top 5 cb already, if not top 3, is probably 2x as valuable than Elliot When it comes to win contribution. When it comes time to pay Elliot and Ramsey, this will be reflected in their salaries too.

Positional value matters

.

Qb
Edge rusher/de
Cb
Ot
Wr

In that order ^



Except that ultimately it is all about the players being compared... no doubt that Ramsey is more valuable than Elliott because he has exceeded all expectations as a shut down corner. What about Elliott versus another top ten drafted cornerback like Eli Apple? Or perhaps a top ten drafted offensive tackle like Ereck Flowers? No doubt that Elliott is a thousand times more valuable than either one despite the lower positional value. You can't be a slave to mechanical rules when evaluating talent...
RE: And Dallas’ OL won’t be the same for long  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 8:56 pm : link
In comment 13951702 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
they can’t afford to keep them all, so putting any old body back there isn’t going to be a viable option.


Again, all the more reason paying an RB at the top of the market hurts your roster. Save huge money at QB, CB, or DE and you can splurge at OL. Pay top of the league money at RB and you have to scrimp elsewhere.

As to who you can put back there, again, Alf Morris averaged over 5 yards a carry last season as the starter.
Ramsey easily  
AcesUp : 5/2/2018 9:01 pm : link
Looking strictly on the field, in a vacuum? It's close...but I still go Ramsey. The guy is on his way to being the best CB in the league, if he isn't there already. I take that over a top RB just about every time. Then when you factor in the peripheral factors like character, contract (Ramsey's rookie deal is a huge discount at CB vs. Elliot at RB) and 2nd contract/shelf life? You're entering dismissive "easily" territory.
Also  
AcesUp : 5/2/2018 9:03 pm : link
To put this in perspective. Ramsey is JUST hitting his prime, Zeke entered the league mid-prime. We've seen the best of Elliot, we're not there yet with Ramsey.
RE: RE: And Dallas’ OL won’t be the same for long  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:06 pm : link
In comment 13951775 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951702 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


they can’t afford to keep them all, so putting any old body back there isn’t going to be a viable option.



Again, all the more reason paying an RB at the top of the market hurts your roster. Save huge money at QB, CB, or DE and you can splurge at OL. Pay top of the league money at RB and you have to scrimp elsewhere.

As to who you can put back there, again, Alf Morris averaged over 5 yards a carry last season as the starter.


It really doesn’t. The fact that RBs make so little means paying a top one doesn’t keep you from spending elsewhere. What don’t you get about that?

I’m not suggesting to just go out and pay every RB but paying guys like LeVeon Bell help your team more than giving the same money to an above average guard, for example.

This notion that RBs aren’t valuable because they are paid the least is exactly why capitalizing on rule can be smart. Get ahead of the curve, not behind it, and have fun paying top dollar for average players at other positions.
I don't get your math for starters  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 9:18 pm : link
You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?
The bottom line, Zeke Elliott is a heck of a player,  
barens : 5/2/2018 9:23 pm : link
and if it weren't for the suspension, who knows what would have happened with the Cowboys. As much as I hate them, they got a great one, and we'd be lucky if Barkley was just as good as Elliott.

It's been quite clear that when Zeke comes off the field, the Cowboys do not run the ball as effectively.
RE: I don't get your math for starters  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?


Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And I’m only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.
There wasn't much of a drop off  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 9:34 pm : link
From Zeke to Morris.. let that sink in.. cowboys won 13 games with their oline.. not Zeke.. with a healthy Murray they will just as many games.. Ramsey on the other hand makes people around him better because he is a shut down guy.. the loses for cowgirls came last year because their all pro LT was out..

In a vacuum... Knowing Zeke gets suspended  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 5/2/2018 9:35 pm : link
And all the drama it caused last year... Ramsey would be the pick.
RE: RE: RE: You can make the argument for either  
ajr2456 : 5/2/2018 9:37 pm : link
In comment 13951695 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951632 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951626 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


the “easily” posts are terrible.



That’s why the league pays cornerbacks more on average than running backs.



Amazing argument, really, I can’t believe you thought of something so brilliant.


Perfect retort for something you can’t dispute.
In a Vacuum, Ransey > Elliot, but...  
jcp56 : 5/2/2018 9:38 pm : link
Elliot fits perfectly with the Cowboys. Strong running game, play action for Dak, keep the defense off the field.

But a shut down corner lets you deploy an extra player (safety help) creatively. (perhaps a safety dropping into the box to stop a dominant runner like Elliot).
A good way to look at a real life example of the two  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 9:38 pm : link
is to look at the Champ Bailey, Clinton Portis trade back in 2005 or so. Champ had an historic career and contributed to Denver for over a decade. Portis was oft injured and never lived up to the billing pretty much from day one. He had a few decent years but he didn't alter the losing culture in Washington one bit.
Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 9:39 pm : link
Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..
Lies, damn lies and statistics  
djm : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
Darkwa averaged the same or more than zeke last year. Is he better?

Zeke is a stud. Hes one of the best players in football. No one cares how much money he makes until he’s no longer a great player. Same will apply to Barkley.

Lies, damn lies and statistics  
djm : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
Darkwa averaged the same or more than zeke last year. Is he better?

Zeke is a stud. Hes one of the best players in football. No one cares how much money he makes until he’s no longer a great player. Same will apply to Barkley.

RE: There wasn't much of a drop off  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:48 pm : link
In comment 13951857 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
From Zeke to Morris.. let that sink in.. cowboys won 13 games with their oline.. not Zeke.. with a healthy Murray they will just as many games.. Ramsey on the other hand makes people around him better because he is a shut down guy.. the loses for cowgirls came last year because their all pro LT was out..


I don’t know how people believe this. He had 2000 yards and 16 TDs in 2016 and still had 1200 yards and 9 TDs in 2017. Morris isn’t a threat in he passing game and had a WHOPPING 1 TD in 2017.

Morris being just as effective as Elliot is the definition of bullshit.
And let’s not even discuss Elliott  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:51 pm : link
spending all of 2017 focusing on a legal battle. I’m not defending that piece of shit but it’s comical to compare Alfred Morris to him.
RE: Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13951870 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..


Darkwa is much better than Fournette. THat extra .5 YPC would have guaranteed them the Super Bowl.
RE: RE: Morris averaged 4.8 ypc  
chuckydee9 : 5/2/2018 10:07 pm : link
In comment 13951906 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951870 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


Zeke averaged 4.1.. Zeke is all about his oline.. he isn't as good as Bell, David Johnson, and definitely not as good as Gurley.. Barkley will last be much better than Zeke..



Darkwa is much better than Fournette. THat extra .5 YPC would have guaranteed them the Super Bowl.


unfortunately they (Darkwa and Fournette) played for different Oline.. also their game flow dictated different running condition.. Zeke and morris played behind Dallas Oline..

Zeke is better than morris but he isn't a huge game changer.. Demarco Murray did the same thing with that Oline.. Zeke also provides better pass catching ability and therefore is three down back.. but make no mistake at pure running there isn't a huge difference.. let Zeke run behind a bad Oline and then you can judge him.. Guys like Bell, David johnson and Gurley are much better than him..
RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/2/2018 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And I’m only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.


A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.
I’ve had enough stupid for one day  
UConn4523 : 5/2/2018 10:44 pm : link
I draw the line at Darkwa being in the same discussion about production with the top RBs in the game. It’s comical.

As for 2nd contracts, tops RBs get second contracts. The only reason why Bell hasn’t is because he wants WR money. He’s making over $14 million this year because they can’t come close to replacing his production without him. Would love to see Darkwa and Perkins generate 85%, heck even 50% of his production which you conveniently cap at yardage and don’t even discuss scoring (you ignore it with Elliott, Bell, and Johnson). But continue spewing your garbage.
Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis  
bradshaw44 : 5/2/2018 11:12 pm : link
Again, is the perfect example.
RE: Dude  
Vanzetti : 5/3/2018 12:02 am : link
In comment 13951499 huygens20 said:
Quote:
It’s reallt not even close


Ramsey, whose a top 5 cb already, if not top 3, is probably 2x as valuable than Elliot When it comes to win contribution. When it comes time to pay Elliot and Ramsey, this will be reflected in their salaries too.

Positional value matters

Qb
Edge rusher/de
Cb
Ot
Wr

In that order ^


Ramsey over Elliott. And it's not close.
RE: It’s not just Ramsey for Elliott  
Mdgiantsfan : 5/3/2018 12:29 am : link
In comment 13951680 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Dallas could’ve went Ramsey then Derrick Henry or Kenyan Drake in the third. I think both backs would’ve been just as productive as Zeke. Even more do bc neither has been suspended.

Dallas OL makes life easy for RBs. I think there’s a good chance they wouldn’t miss a beat if Bo Scarborough had to get the lion’s share of the carries for whatever reason.


Good grief!! Put the pipe down! If you don’t like Zeke fine, but he is much better than Kenyon drake! Now way he’s putting up Zeke-like production.
RE: RE: It’s not just Ramsey for Elliott  
WillVAB : 5/3/2018 2:25 am : link
In comment 13952083 Mdgiantsfan said:
Quote:
In comment 13951680 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Dallas could’ve went Ramsey then Derrick Henry or Kenyan Drake in the third. I think both backs would’ve been just as productive as Zeke. Even more do bc neither has been suspended.

Dallas OL makes life easy for RBs. I think there’s a good chance they wouldn’t miss a beat if Bo Scarborough had to get the lion’s share of the carries for whatever reason.



Good grief!! Put the pipe down! If you don’t like Zeke fine, but he is much better than Kenyon drake! Now way he’s putting up Zeke-like production.


Look at Drake’s production the last 6 games or so last year when they finally featured him. It’s a legitimate debate Zeke v Drake getting 20+ touches behind Dallas’s OL. Like someone said earlier, Demarco Murray was the NFL leading rusher in Dallas and they let him walk.

And like I said earlier, it’s not just Ramsey v Zeke. It would be Ramsey and Drake vs Zeke and Maliek Collins.
Dallas made the miatake  
fanatic II : 5/3/2018 5:50 am : link
in the 2015 draft.

Dallas should have selected Tevin Coleman instead of Randy Gregory.

Then in 2016 Dallas selects Ramsey instead of Elliott.

Coleman and Ramsey would have been better than Gregory and Elloitt.

Behind the Dallas OL Coleman would be a top 5 RB, just like Murray and McFadden before him.
RE: RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
ajr2456 : 5/3/2018 6:00 am : link
In comment 13951969 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And I’m only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.



A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.


In fact only 5 QBs the last decade have sat a year, and four of them it probably had with that they weren’t good:

Locker
Tebow
Manziel
Lynch
Mahoney (the only possible good one)
I don’t care about history  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 6:48 am : link
If we drafted a QB there’s a very real possibility that he would sit all of 2018 and possibly part of or all of 2019. I’m not making that up, have you paid attention to anything this off season?
RE: RE: RE: I don't get your math for starters  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 7:28 am : link
In comment 13951969 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13951854 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13951824 Giantfan in skinland said:


Quote:


You pay an RB 1-5 million and a rookie QB or CB 10 million.

I pay a rookie RB 10 million and a vet QB or CB 15-30 million.

Understand why I'm at a disadvatange?



Where do you factor in sitting and not playing for 2 years? And I’m only partially talking about rookie contracts. On contract #2 RBs that are great are a bargain compared to average players at other positions. Hence my previous post.



A) What QB drafed high has sat for 2 years? Has that happened since Aaron Rodgers? The league is different now. QBs taken in the first round are usually playing by the middle of their first season, and definitely by year 2.

B). RBs are "bargains" on contract two because nobody wants to spend money on an RB with 4-5 seasons of mileage on them. That's because it is usually the case that the RB is already slowing down at that point. There are exceptions...but it's not the norm.


This is pretty much the biggest reason for why a QB at 2 was never an option. Everything this team has said and done this offseason indicates that they feel Eli has 2+ good years left in him. Teams in today’s NFL don’t draft quarterbacks in the first round to have them sit for 2 years.

And then if you cut Eli  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 7:32 am : link
please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.
RE: I don’t care about history  
ajr2456 : 5/3/2018 8:07 am : link
In comment 13952133 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
If we drafted a QB there’s a very real possibility that he would sit all of 2018 and possibly part of or all of 2019. I’m not making that up, have you paid attention to anything this off season?


A QB at 2 would not have sat 2019.
Ohh ok  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:09 am : link
thanks Gettleman.
RE: And then if you cut Eli  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 8:34 am : link
In comment 13952152 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.


That is a good point, I think the cap hit for cutting Manning next year is close to, if not more than, what Barkley will earn next season.
RE: Ohh ok  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 8:41 am : link
In comment 13952183 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
thanks Gettleman.


This was a thread about Ramsey v. Elliot and general discussion of RB value. You gave turned this into a debate about the value of the Giants picking a QB at 2. Pretty much irrelevant.

As to the other backs mentioned in this thread, what you're missing is that the point isn't really that they'd be just as good as Elliot. I think he's a really good back (though not really an asset in the passing game). The point is that behind that OL, a lot of reasonably good backs could be very productive. While they may not quite put up Elliot level production, uthink they'd do enough for the cowboys to be successful. That's why I think the team is better overall by adding a guy like Ramsey.
Positional value..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 8:41 am : link
would've been a powerful tool in the mid 90's when the salary cap was onerous. George Young would've probably stayed the GM for awhile had we used it.

Today, positional analysis often devolves into pithy conclusions like run of the mill RB's will produce as well as star RB's. Heck, one poster yesterday discussed how Darkwa and Gallamn produced better rushing yardage than McCoy. The inference being that if you cut McCoy and replaced him with two mediocre backs, you wouldn't lose any output.

We all know that's bullshit, but it is the meat of why so many people are now saying that RB's are just slightly more valuable than kickers and punters. When you say that last sentence with a straight face and conviction, it might be time to re-evaluate the positional value argument.
RE: RE: And then if you cut Eli  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:46 am : link
In comment 13952220 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13952152 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


please include his dead cap hit in your analysis.

If you are going to give lectures on positional value and cost, the least you can do is post accurate information.



That is a good point, I think the cap hit for cutting Manning next year is close to, if not more than, what Barkley will earn next season.


Hat is correct. His dead cap this year is $17 million and next year it’s $6.2 million I believe. So if you drafted Darnold you’d be paying close to $30 million in 2018 in the 2 QBs, then in 2019 if Manning was cut you are still paying close to $12 million if you factor in Eli’s dead money. And then if you choose to upgrade at RB (he cheapest position) you have to add in another $5 million give or take.

So at year 2 with Darnold and a FA RB you’ve already spent almost 2/3 of Barkley’s entire rookie contract. And then you have to factor that in 2019 Darnold is basically getting his first playing time and may suck so it’s possible we don’t even see an upgrade in QB play.

Lon story short, your bold statements have a lot of layers you didn’t bother to get into. I’m not saying I’m right, but I could be, and if I was, this scenario isn’t the greatest if you are going to talk positional value and give lectures on how an NFL franchise should operate using average salaries per position as your only focus.
Giantfan  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:48 am : link
I’m not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliott’s absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and don’t talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.
And positional value was brought up  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 8:51 am : link
by someone else so blame them.
At least from my perspective  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 8:56 am : link
That's not the discussion. The question isn't whether Darkwa = Elliot. The answer to that is clearly no.

The question is whether the added value of Elliot vs. other guys that were available with a lesser investment justifies the high cost the Cowboys paid for him. As others have argued, plug Derrick Henry or Tevin Coleman in behind that line, and I just don't think it meaningfully alters the expected trajectory of the Cowboys season. Add Jalen Ramsey to the mix on top of that and I think you have a better team overall (and healthier one from a long term cap perspective).
But then that bogs..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/3/2018 9:04 am : link
down the idea of roster construction.

When every team starts to use cut-rate RB's to be the feature back they do free money up elsewhere, but that doesn't mean the pool of elite backs have shrunk.

Here's a funny thing about the positional value argument, though. The teams in the last 5 years who have been over the cap or had to make significant moves to get under the cap weren't teams with expensive RB's. So it really isn't helping in cap management terms. The two teams over the cap this past offseason, the Eagles and Rams have a small portion of $$ tied to the RB. The Rams with Gurley being on his rookie contract, and the eagles are in the bottom half of the league in RB salary.

Teams with an excellent OL can win with mediocre backs. Teams with an average line can win with an elite RB. We won with Bradshaw and Jacobs, but looked like shit with Rashad Jennings and Perkins.
RE: Giantfan  
Giantfan in skinland : 5/3/2018 9:10 am : link
In comment 13952232 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I’m not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliott’s absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and don’t talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.


Elliot started 10 games and scored 7 TDs.

Alf and Rod Smith split 6 starts and scored 6 times. That's actually a higher TD rate.

I'm not arguing Elliot is anything other than one of the best backs in the league. But, despite popular belief to the contrary, the Cowboys running game renained perfectly productive without him.
When it comes to Ramsey v Elliott  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:17 am : link
I think positional value plays a factor. If you factor in where each player plays, that’s also something that needs to be considered. But it’s worth noting that the Jags oline is also very good and Elliott may even have better success with them considering they have better weapons than the Cowboys.

After that my comments are directed towards the Darkwa bullshit. I’m sick of watching our run game, it’s pathetic. I’m glad we have what should be a game changing back and his cost vs drafting Darnold and having him sit + he dead cap hit for Eli makes that whole cost argument a wash.
RE: RE: Giantfan  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:20 am : link
In comment 13952273 Giantfan in skinland said:
Quote:
In comment 13952232 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


I’m not missing anything. That OL was great and has regressed and may continue to do so. Morris has 1 TD in Elliott’s absense.....1. You keep talking about yardage and don’t talk about scoring, catching the ball, or having to account for EE on every down since he can score from anywhere.



Elliot started 10 games and scored 7 TDs.

Alf and Rod Smith split 6 starts and scored 6 times. That's actually a higher TD rate.

I'm not arguing Elliot is anything other than one of the best backs in the league. But, despite popular belief to the contrary, the Cowboys running game renained perfectly productive without him.


I am using the same stats and logic to state that Zeke isn't a top 5 RB..Even McFadden did really good the year before once Cowgirls started giving him the workload... there are quite a few RBs that are better than Zeke.. David Johnson, Fournette, Dalvin Cook, Bell, Gurley, Howard and Hunt are all better.. I may be in minority but thats my opinion.. Barkley will also be better than Zeke..
The OP lost me  
MetsAreBack : 5/3/2018 9:28 am : link
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.
I really don’t agree with you  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:31 am : link
too much stock is being put into his 2017 performance which, by his own fault, he was dealing with a year of legal issues. I think it’s fair to say that Football wasn’t the only thing or even the most important thing he was focusing on.

He’s a bellcow who can score from anywhere and catch. He has the body to handle 300+ touches per year. I think he’s better than Fournette, Howard and the jury is out on Cook and Hunt despite early success. The only RB in the NFL that’s definitviely better is Bell, possibly Gurley. Johnson would be too but I need to see him post injury.
As far as the value of the position and why it isn't getting paid..  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:31 am : link
I think it just has to do with the fact that NFL hasn't really had any great RB come out over a several year span when the best RBs coming out of college were pretty replaceable.. that has not been the case over the last 3 drafts.. last years draft was loaded with 5-6 legit RB.. Barkley is also a legit superstar RB.. 3 years from now when Gurley, Zeke and David Johnson are getting paid 12-15M per year.. the RB franchise tag number will be super high as well..

I don't have anything against the position as much as I think Zeke is over ratted.. when scrub level players can replicate your performance then you aren't a top 5 player..
RE: The OP lost me  
chuckydee9 : 5/3/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 13952308 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.


Also that 6-4 includes a win against the eagles when they weren't trying to win and had their playoff position setup.. yet Dallas Offense wasn't good.. so really it was 5-4 with Zeke.. but don't let facts and stats get in your way of judging Zeke as a top 5 RB..
RE: The OP lost me  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 9:34 am : link
In comment 13952308 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
with all the nonsense excuses for why Dallas won 3 games without Elliott... on the back of a strong running game (Morris) no less.

6-4 with Zeke, 3-3 without him.

And the beating they took in Atlanta had a lot more to do with losing their left tackle... than it had to do with Zeke.


Not to mention they were 13-2 with Zeke on the field in 2016, and 0-1 without him. So over the last 2 seasons they are 19-6 with Elliot and below .500 when he is playing.
It’s funny that his rookie season is being ignore  
UConn4523 : 5/3/2018 9:46 am : link
I loathe the man but I’m taking that out of my assessment of he player. His 2017 was still very good despite the time missed + off he field issues. If you can’t see it or won’t factor that in, it’s pointless debating.
I think that this year's draft is a pretty good indication that  
Mike in NJ : 5/3/2018 9:46 am : link
teams are changing the way they value running backs. There were 3 taken in the first round (Barkley, Penny, Michel) and a total of 6 in the top 43 picks (Chubb, Jones, Johnson). Add in Derius Guice and thats 7 RBs in the first 2 rounds.

Compare that to the previous few year: in 2017 there were only 4 taken in the first two rounds, 2 in 2016, 4 in 2015, 2 in 2014.

RE: I think that this year's draft is a pretty good indication that  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2018 11:05 am : link
In comment 13952336 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
teams are changing the way they value running backs. There were 3 taken in the first round (Barkley, Penny, Michel) and a total of 6 in the top 43 picks (Chubb, Jones, Johnson). Add in Derius Guice and thats 7 RBs in the first 2 rounds.

Compare that to the previous few year: in 2017 there were only 4 taken in the first two rounds, 2 in 2016, 4 in 2015, 2 in 2014.


It was a good year for RBs. Drafts are like harvests. Sometimes you have a bumper crop at a certain pointion. Other years there's maybe one worth a damn.
I am not going out on a limb...  
hitchchops2 : 5/3/2018 7:32 pm : link
...in saying that every NFL team would take Ramsey over Elliott. For a variety of reasons, including longevity and positional value, this is pretty clear. Beyond that however, is the fact that Ramsey is just a far superior football player, and the best player in that draft by a significant margin. Elliott had a great season behind a great line, but his impact will continue to decrease, and he will more than likely be on his second team while Ramsey is still an All Pro.
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