I don't know if this is objective fact, especially on a Giants board with most people old enough to remember the 86 Giants, but why is the 86 Giants D not regarded as highly as the 85 Bears D? And is it actually not as good? If it isn't as good, why? The 86 Giants had probably the best defensive player ever and probably the best defensive coach ever. Were the 85 Bears deeper?
And what about the great 49er offense of the 80s? Montana, Rice, Craig, Taylor - revolutionary for that era. Two playoff games in 85 and 86 against the Giants - they scored a TOTAL of 6 points.
Agreed. '85 Bears were best of all time followed by the'76 Steelers and '00 Ravens... LT was the greatest defensive player of all time, but the '86 Giants Defense is generally not included as a top ten defense in most rankings.
The first memory that comes to my mind when I think of the '85 Bears is our playoff loss in Chicago. With Sean Landetta whiffing on a punt in the swirling frigid winds of Soldier Field... and the Giants getting shut out with virtually zero yards from scrimmage.
But I will say this - the two greatest defensive efforts in Super Bowl history were delivered by two massive underdog Giant teams, first in super bowl XXV against the offensive juggernaut Bills... And second of course, super bowl XLII against the undefeated Patriots... The '85 Bears beat a very mediocre Patriots team in one of the most one-sided games in super bowl history...
90 worked, so, great, but it felt like a hack, a needed hack, but still a hack, to institute the ' clobber the WR.'
Whereas clobber the QB has a more traditional or honorable thing about it maybe.
$64,000.00 dollar question right there. That scheme that Ryan came up with (86?) really had never been seen before(?) - but, the Bears definitely had some great players. And, as good as the D was they couldn't get back to the NFC Championship game the next year (lost to the Redskins). The OC's in the league only needed 1 season to figure his defense out. That is a hard question ... : )
Unless Landeta kicked the crap out of the ball and the bears returner ran back to his own 1 and handed us the ball, we weren't winning that game.
But I have to say that the Bears 85 D was better than the Giants 86 D ... but imo that is solely because of the Bears coach and defensive scheme ... I think the 86 Giants had the better defensive talent - but I loved (LOVED) Buddy Ryan's scheme (even though he was a jackass)
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$64,000.00 dollar question right there. That scheme that Ryan came up with (86?) really had never been seen before(?) - but, the Bears definitely had some great players. And, as good as the D was they couldn't get back to the NFC Championship game the next year (lost to the Redskins). The OC's in the league only needed 1 season to figure his defense out. That is a hard question ... : )
was that jerry glanville's scheme or am I messing that up?
Also the Jets were 10-1 at that point. I was a bit young at the time but remember the playoff games vividly. I'm sure there had to be huge Subway Superbowl talk.
Unless Landeta kicked the crap out of the ball and the bears returner ran back to his own 1 and handed us the ball, we weren't winning that game.
+1.
Even though we were in it until the wiff, we really weren't 'in it'. It reminded me of the '63 Championship game against the Bears. Score wise we were in it, but YAs bloodied head picture was the same indicator as the wiff; in it but not.
First score was a Tom Flynn blocked punt for a TD! Not only did the Giants have the lead - what a great redemptive omen!
Downhill from there, though. DRUBBED 31-19.
Until the playoff run of 1990, Bears had the Giants number.
Bears played in one of the weakest divisions in football at the time. The old NFC Central - Packers, Lions and Buccaneers were laughably bad.
Agreed. Just like the Giants spent most of their offseason celebrating and writing books after our 1st Super Bowl win.
Hard to argue the 86 Giants D was better than the 85 Bears D, but I’d submit the 86 Giants had the best single season linebacker crew of all time. Banks and LT in their prime, HoF Carson still playing great, plus a stud in Reasons. Loaded with depth too with rookie Pepper and guys like Headen and Hunt.
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In comment 13953416 BestFeature said:
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I think the difference was a game changing scheme that the idiot Buddy Ryan developed. Of course the league caught up with it, like it does with everything. I believe the players were roughly equal. The Giants had the superior LB's and the Bears had the better DL. The Bears were a better, more dominant D, but because of the scheme.
Interesting, thanks. I do find it interesting that Buddy Ryan had a more innovative scheme the Belichick.
Belichick wasn't really Belichick yet. He was a 33 yr old in his first season (I believe) as DC. You can't compare him to now. Buddy Ryan was like 200 years old even then.
The Giants meanwhile had a brutal schedule. They faced Washington twice (who won 12 games in 1986). Had to play a stretch vs. Denver (who went to the Super Bowl) and then on the road on a Monday Night vs. the Niners and then on the road the next week in Washington. Literally the 3 teams they had to beat to win the championship...and the Giants won them all. Chicago never had that kind of challenge.
After that 2nd Washington game, the Giants defense got stronger. You can count on one hand how many times a Bill Walsh offense got demolished after the Montana run began. Madden himself said during the Washington NFC Championship shutout that he thought the Bears 1985 defense was the best he ever saw. But the way the 1986 Giants defense was playing, considering the offensive firepower of the 49ers and Redskins, was actually better.
Bottom line, the 1986 Giants defense in their playoff run, at their height was better than the Bears in 1985. But the Bears end to end in 1985 was the best overall.
And I believe it was right in the middle ("the mist" as some would say, hehehe, or midst)
Of this context that the Knee of Thiesman Incident took place.
Context was everything for that occurance.
The Redskins were a powerhouse and Schroeder actually made their offense stronger than it had been in years. Theismann was at the end of his career when LT officially ended it. Riggins had slowed down. The Skins had Schroeder, George Rogers, and a slew of USFL castoffs who were all damn good (Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders, and Kelvin Bryant). Clark put up over 200 yards receiving in the first Giants game on the Monday Night of the Mets Game 7 in the World Series.
People also forget, the Cowboys were 6-2 when they faced the Giants in that second game. Herschel had supplanted an aging Dorsett. They were right there with the Giants and Redskins at the top of the NFC East. Once Banks broke Danny White's wrist, the roof finally fell in on the Cowboys and that pretty much ended the Tom Landry reign and set up the Jimmy Johnson era as they lost 7 of their last 8 games.
Even the lowly Cardinals had a solid offensive team, with Neil Lomax, Roy Green and JT Smith.
It was a more brutal era of football as well.
But regardless, you felt that LT and the front 7 would handle it.
And at very least Simms was implacable and had that cementicious noggin.
If you go back and watch the Redskins/Bears game in 1986 and saw how much Flutie struggled and Walter Payton, bless his heart, had struggled down the stretch and was terrible in the playoff loss, ran for only 38 yards and had a key fumble. The Bears hadn't yet realized that Neal Anderson was the right man for the job.
The Bears offense completely bogged down, and that was at home. If you put the Bears offense in those same conditions that the Redskins got, with zero passing threat from Flutie and a struggling Payton, they would have gotten shut out and might not have crossed midfield the entire game. That 1986 Bears offense vs. the 1986 Giants defense would have been possible the biggest mismatch of any in the playoffs at that time. The Bears offense was probably the worst one of all the playoff teams. And the Giants defense was the best. They would have killed Flutie, similar to Schroeder, who actually collapsed as the NFC Championship Game ended on the sidelines from the beating he took.
As Matt alludes to above, that 1986 Redskins team was damn good. If I was a Skins fans that year, I would have been furious with the Giants.
As Matt alludes to above, that 1986 Redskins team was damn good. If I was a Skins fans that year, I would have been furious with the Giants.
I was a little scared of the aura of the Bears thanks to the 1985 shadow. But I remember being more concerned with trying to beat Washington 3 times. I thought the Bears defense could have given the offense problems. But the Bears offense was so bad after McMahon got hurt, that I thought the revenge factor and being at Giants Stadium, the Giants would have dominated them so badly defensively that unless offense turned it over, Chicago wouldn't move the ball at all. The Bears scored 20 or less points 7 times in their final 10 games.
Odds are, the 17-0 score that the NFC Championship Game was in 1986 would have probably been the same score if Chicago was there.
You would think they would have multiple championships like the Giants, 49ers and Redskins. But nope, just the one.
Look at the '86 Bears schedule sometime. It might be the weakest NFL schedule I've ever seen. The NFC Central that year had 3 double digit loss teams: the 5-11 Lions, 4-12 Packers, and 2-14 Bucs. The Vikings were 9-7 and pounded the Bears in the Metrodome 23-7. After their second loss, they played seven straight games against teams with losing records. Four of them they won by a FG or less. Their two big wins in that stretch came against the Bucs, who were one of the worst teams in NFL history (-234 point differential).
The Bears turned the ball over 46 times that year! Once McMahon went down for good in week 8, their offense went from mediocre to putrid.
But the Bears D was the best I'd ever seen.
As for 86 - our team beats the 86 Bears. As Matt was saying - imo we were a better team in 86. I thought the 86 season game vs Minny was the turning point. Then back-to-back-to-back we beat Broncos, 49ers, and Skins. Our defense dictated the play.
Mike Tyson Had "it".....
Sandy Koufax had "it"....
Whoever was facing them, just were not confident they would win.....
Giants in playoffs played them tough but our offense wasn’t up for it.
Edge goes to Bears but 86 Giants D was one of the best. 19 games only 2 teams scored more than 20. 7 teams couldn’t get more than 7. Giants played 8 teams with a top 10 scoring offense. Played 8 teams with 10 wins. Played 5 with 11+ win teams and win all of them. Denver twice with 11 wins. And 3 with 12 (Was).
Bears had 9 teams fail to score 7. 3 scored over 20. They had several shutouts. They played 5 teams with top 10 offense. They played 7 teams with 10 wins. They only beat one with 11 wins. NE at 11 wins (2 wins) and Mia at 12 had more than 10 wins.
85 Season should have ended with a Mia and Bears rematch but Dolphins played awful in Champ game. Bears caught a huge break with NE in the SB.
Strength of schedule goes to 86 giants but Bears has better defense because they dominated the LOS like no other team.
Giants in playoffs played them tough but our offense wasn’t up for it.
Edge goes to Bears but 86 Giants D was one of the best. 19 games only 2 teams scored more than 20. 7 teams couldn’t get more than 7. Giants played 8 teams with a top 10 scoring offense. Played 8 teams with 10 wins. Played 5 with 11+ win teams and win all of them. Denver twice with 11 wins. And 3 with 12 (Was).
Bears had 9 teams fail to score 7. 3 scored over 20. They had several shutouts. They played 5 teams with top 10 offense. They played 7 teams with 10 wins. They only beat one with 11 wins. NE at 11 wins (2 wins) and Mia at 12 had more than 10 wins.
85 Season should have ended with a Mia and Bears rematch but Dolphins played awful in Champ game. Bears caught a huge break with NE in the SB.
Strength of schedule goes to 86 giants but Bears has better defense because they dominated the LOS like no other team.
Gastineu. Klecko and Lions
Another bad ass line centric team.
It's interesting that
Jim Burt was only 6'1" 260 (d nose tackle those years)
and yet
Leonard Marshal ( 3/4 de?) 6'3" 288.
Which is weird because even now we have those 3.4 ends, at the moment, exact same size! Even given much huger OL'ers.
Perhaps the 3/4 ends should be 6'3" 333 if we are to run the 3/4 the same way (two gapping) but we won't be, apparently, so I guess it's OK!
How did the Bears punk out? Did they refuse to play the Giants?
You're a weird dude.
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Giants were most devastating in 86! Knocked every QB they played. Bears QB was next, but the Bears punked out
How did the Bears punk out? Did they refuse to play the Giants?
You're a weird dude.
The Redskins beat the Bears to knock them out of the playoffs in the divisional round which led to us thoroughly whipping the Skins in the NFC championship game. I was thrilled that the Bears were eliminated because the Bears defense was still the most dominant force in the league and would have likely been a tougher matchup for us than the Redskins...
Whether the 86 Giants beat the 85 Bears, I probably go Giants but its not a slam dunk. While i think low scoring of ocurse, I worry that Phil Simms didnt exactly have the quick release and game to match that Bears defense and probably allows a TD himself to the Bears.
Maybe we win 13-10?
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In comment 13953477 Elite Mobster #32 said:
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Giants were most devastating in 86! Knocked every QB they played. Bears QB was next, but the Bears punked out
How did the Bears punk out? Did they refuse to play the Giants?
You're a weird dude.
The Redskins beat the Bears to knock them out of the playoffs in the divisional round which led to us thoroughly whipping the Skins in the NFC championship game. I was thrilled that the Bears were eliminated because the Bears defense was still the most dominant force in the league and would have likely been a tougher matchup for us than the Redskins...
I know what happened - I just tend to think of "punked out" referring to someone refusing to compete, not getting eliminated by the team that wound up winning the Super Bowl the following year.
Posted this earlier - the 82 point playoff difference is the largest of any SB winner in history.
And the thing is, Ryan was true to his word. I swear there were times I think he rushed 11. It was the weirdest looking D I ever saw ... so frequently he had 8+ D'men on the LOS.
Link - ( New Window )
As Matt alludes to above, that 1986 Redskins team was damn good. If I was a Skins fans that year, I would have been furious with the Giants.
So did I ... but, at the same time I sort of wanted to play them again to see how we would have done. But, it was not meant to be ...