LeBron is great no doubt about it.... but the GOAT is still Jordan.... Does Jordan lose to Dirk Nowitski, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler with Wade and Bosh, I think not.
Do we really have to mention Jordan in every Lebron thread? Â
LeBron is great no doubt about it.... but the GOAT is still Jordan.... Does Jordan lose to Dirk Nowitski, Jason Terry, and Tyson Chandler with Wade and Bosh, I think not.
Dirk Nowitski was a heck of a player and underrated throughout his career.
very nice shot but I would define it as crazy or insane or that difficult. ZBy your hype on here I was expecting something different. Certainly a great moment for LeBron.
But a 10 ft runner to beat the Raptors in a tie game and go up 3-0 in the second round is not something I would say makes you the GOAT.
It doesnt change his 3-5 record in the NBA finals. probably soon to be 3-6 because of the ridiculously terrible East.
The play he got the top of his head grazed and acted like he got hit with a baseball bat is just classic, insufferable LeBron.
Bet you wouldn’t call him a whiny little bitch to his face... makes you just a bitch.
He’s a competitor, what competitor doesn’t complain when he doesn’t get foul calls when he believes he should, as great as LeBron was last night I couldn’t help but think about how the refs were dreadful calling the game last night, a lot of questionable calls and no-calls.
Don’t get the LeBron is whiny little bitch stuff... is he dramatic yeah but when you call him a whiny little bitch can’t help but assume you are just a hater.
KD, Westbrook and Harden...
Popavich, Duncan, Manu, Tony Parker, Kawai Leonard...
The 73-9 Golden State Warriors...
That’s got to count for something, no? Or do you still believe it doesn’t mean anything because he’s totally owned the eastern conference playoffs for the past decade it seems... give him some credit somewhere please
KD, Westbrook and Harden...
Popavich, Duncan, Manu, Tony Parker, Kawai Leonard...
The 73-9 Golden State Warriors...
That’s got to count for something, no? Or do you still believe it doesn’t mean anything because he’s totally owned the eastern conference playoffs for the past decade it seems... give him some credit somewhere please
You missed the whole premesis of the post. I said he is a top 3 player of all time. Is that not giving him credit? I just said his path to the finals has been incredibly easy as the east has lacked talent for nearly a decade
I’d say LeBron has had better talent around him than Jordan did.
I never understand how people so drastically underrate the teammates Jordan had, some of whom have all-time career numbers and percentages.
It’s an interesting debate. I know Lebron has wade but he didn’t have prime wade. I’d argue pippen with Jordan was better than wade with Lebron. After that
Bosh was probably better than grant/bosh
Irving was better than any PG Jordan had
Kukoc was a matchup nightmare ala love. But as a 6th man he blows out anything Lebron has
I’d give Lebron a slight edge as far as personnel.
I’d say LeBron has had better talent around him than Jordan did.
I never understand how people so drastically underrate the teammates Jordan had, some of whom have all-time career numbers and percentages.
I’m not underrating anything. But outside of Pippen and Rodman I can’t really think of many all stars Jordan played with. LeBron has played with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Allen, Love, etc.
One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
As a casual basketball fan I would say that LeBron has faced much harder competition in the finals then Jordan ever did. But just the eye test having watch both play Jordan is clearly the better player probably because if the killer instinct he had.
One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
People don't like younger people coming in and challenging viewpoints. And I'll admit, I've never watched MJ and 6 rings in 6 shots with 2 years off from basketball is pretty convincing to me so I won't challenge Lebron taking MJ's spot just yet.
But the fact of the matter is more and more good talent comes into the league than leaves it. Just look at this year's rookie class. Are there 10-15 good players retiring/falling for every one that comes in? I'd say it's a 2:1 ratio. The league naturally gets more saturated with talent. Lebron's old Cavs teams, AI's Sixers and the '04 Pistons just wont even sniff the finals today and those teams are only 10-15 years ago.
One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
People don't like younger people coming in and challenging viewpoints. And I'll admit, I've never watched MJ and 6 rings in 6 shots with 2 years off from basketball is pretty convincing to me so I won't challenge Lebron taking MJ's spot just yet.
But the fact of the matter is more and more good talent comes into the league than leaves it. Just look at this year's rookie class. Are there 10-15 good players retiring/falling for every one that comes in? I'd say it's a 2:1 ratio. The league naturally gets more saturated with talent. Lebron's old Cavs teams, AI's Sixers and the '04 Pistons just wont even sniff the finals today and those teams are only 10-15 years ago.
The talent coming in to the league is offset by superstars joinging each other to create superteams. We are 1 win away from 4 teams getting into conference finals who were predicted before the season started.
The East is a joke as regards to competition. So some of those teams may have had a chance in getting into the finals.
Again, here are the superstars Lebron had to go through to get to the finals
1. Chauncey Billups
2. Derrick Rose (MVP)
3. Pierce, Garnett, and Allen (at the end of their careers)
4. George, West, Hibbert
5. George/West
6. Atlanta - teage/Horford/Millsap
7. Lowry/Derozen
8. Horford
9. Brown/Tatum/Horford/Rozier
I mean honestly. This is really, really, really bad for a conference final. Billups and Rose were the only true superstars in their prime he had to beat. And even Billups teams was at the end of their run. Both guys probably wont make the HOF either.
You have to realize Lebron made a lot of these teams/stars look worse then they really were. He swept a 60 win Hawks team in the conf finals that had 4 all stars. The 2007 Pistons team was a great team. Those Paul George Pacers teams were loaded and a very tough out. While those Celtics teams were older, they were still coming off 2 finals appearances in 3 years.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
You have to realize Lebron made a lot of these teams/stars look worse then they really were. He swept a 60 win Hawks team in the conf finals that had 4 all stars. The 2007 Pistons team was a great team. Those Paul George Pacers teams were loaded and a very tough out. While those Celtics teams were older, they were still coming off 2 finals appearances in 3 years.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
See all I see is BS there.
Hawks 4 all stars? Wow. Not one person in the NBA would take Atlanta's team ober Lebron and 4 stiff. Thats the reality of the situation.
2007 Pistons were old. Billups was the only one who had anything left when that team lost.
Pacers teams were loaded? With who? George was young and developing, Granger was consistently hurt, Hibbert was never a good offensive player. West was their best player. Are we really saying thats a loaded team?
The Celtics were good, but on their last legs.
Who did Jordan beat?
Bad Boys
Barkley
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny
Outside of Penny and injuries, Jordan consistently went through HOFs to get into the finals. Lebrons path has ALWAYS been much, much easier. This year he has to play a team without its two best players to get to the finals. Tough, eh?
by Lebron haters that the East is an easy road and that he has a 3-5 (probably 3-6) record in the Finals. There is more talent than ever before, if the East is lacking it then it's saturated in the West. This GS team is the best collection of talent ever assembled, they are in year 2 of a likely 5-6 year run.
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
by Lebron haters that the East is an easy road and that he has a 3-5 (probably 3-6) record in the Finals. There is more talent than ever before, if the East is lacking it then it's saturated in the West. This GS team is the best collection of talent ever assembled, they are in year 2 of a likely 5-6 year run.
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
How many finals would he have made if he were in the west? Id say 4-5.
I dont think people realize how f'n bad the east is and has been. This is why I dont think he ever leaves the East. Even with Philly and Boston emerging, its still not the West.
As far as his losses. If we are going to build him up as the GOAT going 3-6 in the finals is a huge blemish.
by Lebron haters that the East is an easy road and that he has a 3-5 (probably 3-6) record in the Finals. There is more talent than ever before, if the East is lacking it then it's saturated in the West. This GS team is the best collection of talent ever assembled, they are in year 2 of a likely 5-6 year run.
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
How many finals would he have made if he were in the west? Id say 4-5.
I dont think people realize how f'n bad the east is and has been. This is why I dont think he ever leaves the East. Even with Philly and Boston emerging, its still not the West.
As far as his losses. If we are going to build him up as the GOAT going 3-6 in the finals is a huge blemish.
I started off by stating I don't think he is the GOAT, he'd have to win a few more rings for that to be a serious convo, it's hard seeing him win another anytime soon too.
I'm basically in agreement with you about where he ranks, top 3.
You have to realize Lebron made a lot of these teams/stars look worse then they really were. He swept a 60 win Hawks team in the conf finals that had 4 all stars. The 2007 Pistons team was a great team. Those Paul George Pacers teams were loaded and a very tough out. While those Celtics teams were older, they were still coming off 2 finals appearances in 3 years.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
See all I see is BS there.
Hawks 4 all stars? Wow. Not one person in the NBA would take Atlanta's team ober Lebron and 4 stiff. Thats the reality of the situation.
2007 Pistons were old. Billups was the only one who had anything left when that team lost.
Pacers teams were loaded? With who? George was young and developing, Granger was consistently hurt, Hibbert was never a good offensive player. West was their best player. Are we really saying thats a loaded team?
The Celtics were good, but on their last legs.
Who did Jordan beat?
Bad Boys
Barkley
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny
Outside of Penny and injuries, Jordan consistently went through HOFs to get into the finals. Lebrons path has ALWAYS been much, much easier. This year he has to play a team without its two best players to get to the finals. Tough, eh?
If you think David West was the best player on that Indiana team I'm not sure its worth arguing about anything else.
But yes Lebron has had it easy. That's why he has a chance to go to his 8th straight NBA Final. No big deal, plenty of other great players do it....
In what way? Paul George won MIP, was 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA Defense, and their leading scorer. He also played incredible defense on Lebron in those playoffs.
That team didn't last, but during that short window the Pacers were an elite team. Also were the best the defensive team in the league.
And how about the 2011 Bulls? Another 60 win team that Lebron completely destroyed in the playoffs...
RE: RE: He was arguably their best player in 2012-2013 Â
In what way? Paul George won MIP, was 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA Defense, and their leading scorer. He also played incredible defense on Lebron in those playoffs.
That team didn't last, but during that short window the Pacers were an elite team. Also were the best the defensive team in the league.
And how about the 2011 Bulls? Another 60 win team that Lebron completely destroyed in the playoffs...
I am a Bulls fan. That 2011 Bulls team was carried by 1 player. It was not a very good team at all. Kurt Thomas started 40 games and Keith Bogan started EVERY game.
Indiana back in 13/14 were like every other pretender. Couple decent players who grinded every night and won a lot of games when oether teams took it easy. They were a good team. They were not loaded nor were they going to win a title.
the best defense in the NBA that year. Noah made an all defense team that year and the 2 following years (including DPOY). Deng made the All Star game the next two seasons (which were both actually worse than his 2010-2011 season). Carlos Boozer was flawed but averaged 17 and 9 that season.
the best defense in the NBA that year. Noah made an all defense team that year and the 2 following years (including DPOY). Deng made the All Star game the next two seasons (which were both actually worse than his 2010-2011 season). Carlos Boozer was flawed but averaged 17 and 9 that season.
You can argue with me until the cows come home - but that Bulls team was led by 1 person. Thats it. Boozer was not good, despite some nice stats. Deng was a good role player. Noah missed the majority of the year. They were a one man band. Again, they were the typical team who did well in the regular season but was outclassed by better talent. Again, Keith Bogans started 82 games. Keith f'n Bogans.
You guys talking about role players. Not teams you build around.
"Barkley
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny"
Orlando even grabbed allstar Horace Grant from Jordan and still couldn't win one.
These teams could never beat Jordan. Thats the point. Didnt the knicks make the finals after each year Jordan retired? Didnt Jordan take down Shaq and Penny the year after they went to the finals?
Jordan's teams went through very good players teams and HOF players every year he was in the finals. I cant say about Lebron in the east.
Both players would have killed it in each other's era. But can you dream about what Jordan can do with no hand checking and the 3 ball era and the court spread?
In the debate between Jordan and LeBron, the only foolish answer is anyone who uses extreme or definitive language.
Saying there is "no way" one is better than the other, or saying that it isn't close, or that it's obvious-- all of those opinions seems detached from objectivity.
You take Jordan, I'll take LeBron. You take LeBron, I'll take Jordan. Both were incredible in different way.
They played in different eras, in different situations.
Jordan played in a more physical era. LeBron plays in the most athletic era with the highest concentration of global talent that the sport has ever seen.
LeBron left and went to teams where he could have a say in his roster construction. Jordan stayed with the Bulls but also never won anything without Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson (as well as other stars and specialists on those great Bulls teams). Jordan has fewer blemishes on his resume, and LeBron had teams fall apart without him.
Both are historically great players, the best of their generations.
Both are incredible. Both
'These teams could never beat Jordan. Thats the point. ' Â
of the late '80s-early '90s NBA is an interesting exercise. Physically he could more than hold his own with the ruffians of those days, but would teams like the Pistons or the Knicks be able to throw him off his game? It worked for the Pistons with Jordan for a while, but Jordan learned how to overcome that.
RE: Wondering how Lebron would have handled the style Â
of the late '80s-early '90s NBA is an interesting exercise. Physically he could more than hold his own with the ruffians of those days, but would teams like the Pistons or the Knicks be able to throw him off his game? It worked for the Pistons with Jordan for a while, but Jordan learned how to overcome that.
By the same virtue, how would most NBA players score on Lebron if he was allowed to hand check? That argument certainly holds fact offensively but Lebron detractors never seem to look at the other side of the ball in that respect.
RE: RE: Wondering how Lebron would have handled the style Â
of the late '80s-early '90s NBA is an interesting exercise. Physically he could more than hold his own with the ruffians of those days, but would teams like the Pistons or the Knicks be able to throw him off his game? It worked for the Pistons with Jordan for a while, but Jordan learned how to overcome that.
By the same virtue, how would most NBA players score on Lebron if he was allowed to hand check? That argument certainly holds fact offensively but Lebron detractors never seem to look at the other side of the ball in that respect.
Can they set illegal screens like they do today ;) haha
you can extrapolate certain aspects of different eras that clearly. It’s annoying every time you hear something like “Jahlil Okafor was born 25 years too late”. Really? Were big men soft and could get away with not being able to rebound in the 80s in 90s? I think all aspects need to be considered when comparing eras.
comeback by the Raptors.
LeBron is having an unreal series.
GOAT? Hard to argue against him.
We do when the GOAT is mentioned.
Dirk Nowitski was a heck of a player and underrated throughout his career.
Here’s a fun question.
Who was the best player Lebron best in the east to get to the finals?
Dwight Howard? Derrick Rose? Chauncey Billups?
You when someone else mentions GOAT. Jordan was and still is.
But a 10 ft runner to beat the Raptors in a tie game and go up 3-0 in the second round is not something I would say makes you the GOAT.
It doesnt change his 3-5 record in the NBA finals. probably soon to be 3-6 because of the ridiculously terrible East.
The play he got the top of his head grazed and acted like he got hit with a baseball bat is just classic, insufferable LeBron.
Here’s a fun question.
Who was the best player Lebron best in the east to get to the finals?
Dwight Howard? Derrick Rose? Chauncey Billups?
What great teams did Jordan ever beat? Hint: None.
The play he got the top of his head grazed and acted like he got hit with a baseball bat is just classic, insufferable LeBron.
Bet you wouldn’t call him a whiny little bitch to his face... makes you just a bitch.
He’s a competitor, what competitor doesn’t complain when he doesn’t get foul calls when he believes he should, as great as LeBron was last night I couldn’t help but think about how the refs were dreadful calling the game last night, a lot of questionable calls and no-calls.
Don’t get the LeBron is whiny little bitch stuff... is he dramatic yeah but when you call him a whiny little bitch can’t help but assume you are just a hater.
Popavich, Duncan, Manu, Tony Parker, Kawai Leonard...
The 73-9 Golden State Warriors...
That’s got to count for something, no? Or do you still believe it doesn’t mean anything because he’s totally owned the eastern conference playoffs for the past decade it seems... give him some credit somewhere please
Popavich, Duncan, Manu, Tony Parker, Kawai Leonard...
The 73-9 Golden State Warriors...
That’s got to count for something, no? Or do you still believe it doesn’t mean anything because he’s totally owned the eastern conference playoffs for the past decade it seems... give him some credit somewhere please
You missed the whole premesis of the post. I said he is a top 3 player of all time. Is that not giving him credit? I just said his path to the finals has been incredibly easy as the east has lacked talent for nearly a decade
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No chance. He’s a top 3 player ever. But come in dominating against jv teams doesn’t enhance your case.
Here’s a fun question.
Who was the best player Lebron best in the east to get to the finals?
Dwight Howard? Derrick Rose? Chauncey Billups?
What great teams did Jordan ever beat? Hint: None.
Another stan-esqu post.
At least Jordan best isiah, Wilkins, Barkley, Ewing, miller, Shaq penny....etc.
“Nuff said”
I never understand how people so drastically underrate the teammates Jordan had, some of whom have all-time career numbers and percentages.
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I’d say LeBron has had better talent around him than Jordan did.
I never understand how people so drastically underrate the teammates Jordan had, some of whom have all-time career numbers and percentages.
It’s an interesting debate. I know Lebron has wade but he didn’t have prime wade. I’d argue pippen with Jordan was better than wade with Lebron. After that
Bosh was probably better than grant/bosh
Irving was better than any PG Jordan had
Kukoc was a matchup nightmare ala love. But as a 6th man he blows out anything Lebron has
I’d give Lebron a slight edge as far as personnel.
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I’d say LeBron has had better talent around him than Jordan did.
I never understand how people so drastically underrate the teammates Jordan had, some of whom have all-time career numbers and percentages.
I’m not underrating anything. But outside of Pippen and Rodman I can’t really think of many all stars Jordan played with. LeBron has played with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Allen, Love, etc.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
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One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
People don't like younger people coming in and challenging viewpoints. And I'll admit, I've never watched MJ and 6 rings in 6 shots with 2 years off from basketball is pretty convincing to me so I won't challenge Lebron taking MJ's spot just yet.
But the fact of the matter is more and more good talent comes into the league than leaves it. Just look at this year's rookie class. Are there 10-15 good players retiring/falling for every one that comes in? I'd say it's a 2:1 ratio. The league naturally gets more saturated with talent. Lebron's old Cavs teams, AI's Sixers and the '04 Pistons just wont even sniff the finals today and those teams are only 10-15 years ago.
Quote:
In comment 13956388 Iamhagg1 said:
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One thing that bothers me is that a lot of his game winners are when the game is tied. It’s a much different shot than being down... it just is... be he’s great though and can’t dent it.
Talk about nitpicking... is this Skip Bayless? And this isn’t even true.
How could people possibly criticize Lebron at this point ?
People don't like younger people coming in and challenging viewpoints. And I'll admit, I've never watched MJ and 6 rings in 6 shots with 2 years off from basketball is pretty convincing to me so I won't challenge Lebron taking MJ's spot just yet.
But the fact of the matter is more and more good talent comes into the league than leaves it. Just look at this year's rookie class. Are there 10-15 good players retiring/falling for every one that comes in? I'd say it's a 2:1 ratio. The league naturally gets more saturated with talent. Lebron's old Cavs teams, AI's Sixers and the '04 Pistons just wont even sniff the finals today and those teams are only 10-15 years ago.
The talent coming in to the league is offset by superstars joinging each other to create superteams. We are 1 win away from 4 teams getting into conference finals who were predicted before the season started.
The East is a joke as regards to competition. So some of those teams may have had a chance in getting into the finals.
Again, here are the superstars Lebron had to go through to get to the finals
1. Chauncey Billups
2. Derrick Rose (MVP)
3. Pierce, Garnett, and Allen (at the end of their careers)
4. George, West, Hibbert
5. George/West
6. Atlanta - teage/Horford/Millsap
7. Lowry/Derozen
8. Horford
9. Brown/Tatum/Horford/Rozier
I mean honestly. This is really, really, really bad for a conference final. Billups and Rose were the only true superstars in their prime he had to beat. And even Billups teams was at the end of their run. Both guys probably wont make the HOF either.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
See all I see is BS there.
Hawks 4 all stars? Wow. Not one person in the NBA would take Atlanta's team ober Lebron and 4 stiff. Thats the reality of the situation.
2007 Pistons were old. Billups was the only one who had anything left when that team lost.
Pacers teams were loaded? With who? George was young and developing, Granger was consistently hurt, Hibbert was never a good offensive player. West was their best player. Are we really saying thats a loaded team?
The Celtics were good, but on their last legs.
Who did Jordan beat?
Bad Boys
Barkley
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny
Outside of Penny and injuries, Jordan consistently went through HOFs to get into the finals. Lebrons path has ALWAYS been much, much easier. This year he has to play a team without its two best players to get to the finals. Tough, eh?
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
I've resisted putting him on Jordan's level for as long as possible, but he's earned it. Good for him.
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
How many finals would he have made if he were in the west? Id say 4-5.
I dont think people realize how f'n bad the east is and has been. This is why I dont think he ever leaves the East. Even with Philly and Boston emerging, its still not the West.
As far as his losses. If we are going to build him up as the GOAT going 3-6 in the finals is a huge blemish.
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by Lebron haters that the East is an easy road and that he has a 3-5 (probably 3-6) record in the Finals. There is more talent than ever before, if the East is lacking it then it's saturated in the West. This GS team is the best collection of talent ever assembled, they are in year 2 of a likely 5-6 year run.
It certainly makes his 9 Finals appearances seem less stellar but I also can't see 6 Finals losses counting against his greatness either.
How many finals would he have made if he were in the west? Id say 4-5.
I dont think people realize how f'n bad the east is and has been. This is why I dont think he ever leaves the East. Even with Philly and Boston emerging, its still not the West.
As far as his losses. If we are going to build him up as the GOAT going 3-6 in the finals is a huge blemish.
I started off by stating I don't think he is the GOAT, he'd have to win a few more rings for that to be a serious convo, it's hard seeing him win another anytime soon too.
I'm basically in agreement with you about where he ranks, top 3.
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You have to realize Lebron made a lot of these teams/stars look worse then they really were. He swept a 60 win Hawks team in the conf finals that had 4 all stars. The 2007 Pistons team was a great team. Those Paul George Pacers teams were loaded and a very tough out. While those Celtics teams were older, they were still coming off 2 finals appearances in 3 years.
Who were these superstars that Jordan beat in the East? Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Reggie Miller, Mourning. Great players but those teams are pretty comparable to Lebron's EC competition. He also lost to Shaq's Magic in 95 ( he was rusty from his return).
Even this Raptors team won 59 games and has 4 "max" players. Lebron just owns them and is dominating them. What he's currently doing is truly remarkable.
See all I see is BS there.
Hawks 4 all stars? Wow. Not one person in the NBA would take Atlanta's team ober Lebron and 4 stiff. Thats the reality of the situation.
2007 Pistons were old. Billups was the only one who had anything left when that team lost.
Pacers teams were loaded? With who? George was young and developing, Granger was consistently hurt, Hibbert was never a good offensive player. West was their best player. Are we really saying thats a loaded team?
The Celtics were good, but on their last legs.
Who did Jordan beat?
Bad Boys
Barkley
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny
Outside of Penny and injuries, Jordan consistently went through HOFs to get into the finals. Lebrons path has ALWAYS been much, much easier. This year he has to play a team without its two best players to get to the finals. Tough, eh?
If you think David West was the best player on that Indiana team I'm not sure its worth arguing about anything else.
But yes Lebron has had it easy. That's why he has a chance to go to his 8th straight NBA Final. No big deal, plenty of other great players do it....
Thats not a loaded team whatsoever.
Thats not a loaded team whatsoever.
In what way? Paul George won MIP, was 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA Defense, and their leading scorer. He also played incredible defense on Lebron in those playoffs.
That team didn't last, but during that short window the Pacers were an elite team. Also were the best the defensive team in the league.
And how about the 2011 Bulls? Another 60 win team that Lebron completely destroyed in the playoffs...
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and 2nd best player in 2013-2014.
Thats not a loaded team whatsoever.
In what way? Paul George won MIP, was 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA Defense, and their leading scorer. He also played incredible defense on Lebron in those playoffs.
That team didn't last, but during that short window the Pacers were an elite team. Also were the best the defensive team in the league.
And how about the 2011 Bulls? Another 60 win team that Lebron completely destroyed in the playoffs...
I am a Bulls fan. That 2011 Bulls team was carried by 1 player. It was not a very good team at all. Kurt Thomas started 40 games and Keith Bogan started EVERY game.
Indiana back in 13/14 were like every other pretender. Couple decent players who grinded every night and won a lot of games when oether teams took it easy. They were a good team. They were not loaded nor were they going to win a title.
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny"
Orlando even grabbed allstar Horace Grant from Jordan and still couldn't win one.
You can argue with me until the cows come home - but that Bulls team was led by 1 person. Thats it. Boozer was not good, despite some nice stats. Deng was a good role player. Noah missed the majority of the year. They were a one man band. Again, they were the typical team who did well in the regular season but was outclassed by better talent. Again, Keith Bogans started 82 games. Keith f'n Bogans.
You guys talking about role players. Not teams you build around.
Wilkins
Ewing and the Knicks who went to the championship when he retired
Reggie Miller and a better Pacers teams
Oneal and Penny"
Orlando even grabbed allstar Horace Grant from Jordan and still couldn't win one.
These teams could never beat Jordan. Thats the point. Didnt the knicks make the finals after each year Jordan retired? Didnt Jordan take down Shaq and Penny the year after they went to the finals?
Jordan's teams went through very good players teams and HOF players every year he was in the finals. I cant say about Lebron in the east.
Jesus Christ.
Saying there is "no way" one is better than the other, or saying that it isn't close, or that it's obvious-- all of those opinions seems detached from objectivity.
You take Jordan, I'll take LeBron. You take LeBron, I'll take Jordan. Both were incredible in different way.
They played in different eras, in different situations.
Jordan played in a more physical era. LeBron plays in the most athletic era with the highest concentration of global talent that the sport has ever seen.
LeBron left and went to teams where he could have a say in his roster construction. Jordan stayed with the Bulls but also never won anything without Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson (as well as other stars and specialists on those great Bulls teams). Jordan has fewer blemishes on his resume, and LeBron had teams fall apart without him.
Both are historically great players, the best of their generations.
Both are incredible. Both
lol. ok.
By the same virtue, how would most NBA players score on Lebron if he was allowed to hand check? That argument certainly holds fact offensively but Lebron detractors never seem to look at the other side of the ball in that respect.
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of the late '80s-early '90s NBA is an interesting exercise. Physically he could more than hold his own with the ruffians of those days, but would teams like the Pistons or the Knicks be able to throw him off his game? It worked for the Pistons with Jordan for a while, but Jordan learned how to overcome that.
By the same virtue, how would most NBA players score on Lebron if he was allowed to hand check? That argument certainly holds fact offensively but Lebron detractors never seem to look at the other side of the ball in that respect.
Can they set illegal screens like they do today ;) haha