Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Now dust settled: Reflecting on thinking behind choice at #2

Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 8:42 am
Giants more than most organizations are huge on character this is especially magnified in round 1 and then even moreso if you are picking top 5. In that range they want a guy who has it 'all': character, production, measurables, work ethic etc.

They also tend to prefer the high impact player/position which is why while we heard they liked Nelson alot, they werent going to pick an OG at 2. Which of the blue chip non QBs left Saquon or Chubb . RBs for the most part ARE a lower impact position until you find the rare game changing types with home run speed and playmaking ability and-or ones that are legitimate receiving threats out of the backfield.

Barkley is both those things and an extremely high character player to boot.

Now in regards to the QB position. I think multiple things were going on there which led to them going non QB. As we all know if you think there is a franchise QB AND your organization has decided it is an immediate (or almost immediate) need, that QB should trump everything else.

So breaking down those two factors: Was there a franchise QB in the Giants opinion? I beleive the answer is yes but it was only one of the 4 top options: Sam Darnold. We spoke about character earlier and its even more magnified when we are talking a face of the franchise player.

Right or wrong I believe that dropped Rosen and Mayfield out of the picture entirely. To take a QB at #2 for the Giants, he will need to be Eli squeaky clean. Look at their recent history of QB picks: Eli,Simms,Brown,Webb,Laulletta . All guys with squeaky clean character.

The two guys that fit that bill were Darnold and Allen. However in Allens case I think there was enough doubt about how raw he was and if he would be able to correct all his mechanical stuff more so than Darnold. Darnold showed tremendous accuracy despite some flaws , Allen was very inconsistent. Also Allen did not show a high level of anticipation and D reading ability while Darnold was much better in this department. With all that said, at the end of the day, I think the ONLY QB with a top of the draft franchise grade was Darnold.

Now to the second point and why the Giants didnt pick him: QB was NOT deemed an immediate need. All the quotes from Gettleman to Shurmur to Accorsi kept repeating one mantra; Eli has years left. Also despite being unproven, Webb is doing everything right. That did not sound like an organization ready to part with their 2 time Super Bowl winning MVP QB at the end of this year. And making the investment at #2 in the entire draft at QB usually means the kid is playing sometime year 1 or latest year 2.

Now we may or may not agree with ownerships logic/decision but this is very likely what happened. Sam Darnold being available at 2 and them passing on him was case in point. If you still doubt, ask yourself this question: If they truly thought Eli was done, in drastic decline, or right on the precipice of it, do you honestly think they bypass Sam Darnold at #2 ? Further, knowing this is also a very prideful organization that doesnt believe it will be picking at #2 anytime soon again?
At the end of the day, Joe  
JonC : 5/8/2018 8:53 am : link
they picked the #1 player on their board.

The only QB talk I heard was Darnold was the only one they really liked, but it appears he was not any higher than #4 on their board, behind SB, Chubb, Nelson.

They stayed true to their board.
The dust has settled?  
Don Draper : 5/8/2018 8:59 am : link
.
The meltdown..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/8/2018 9:03 am : link
from fibromyalgia can't get here soon enough.
RE: At the end of the day, Joe  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:04 am : link
In comment 13957646 JonC said:
Quote:
they picked the #1 player on their board.

The only QB talk I heard was Darnold was the only one they really liked, but it appears he was not any higher than #4 on their board, behind SB, Chubb, Nelson.

They stayed true to their board.


So Jon, if they truly thought Eli was done you think they bypass Sam Darnold at #2?
If DG was truly honest  
JonC : 5/8/2018 9:05 am : link
then SB was their target, end of story.

Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.
BigBlue  
joeinpa : 5/8/2018 9:06 am : link
It is interesting to try and figure why they did what they didn

But the fact of the matter is, they chose a possible great running back over a possible franchise quarterback.

If they win another Super Bowl with Eli or go on to win Super Bowl(s) with Webb or Lauletta, then they were right.

If not and either if Darnold, Allen or Rosen go on to stardom, then it is one if the biggest blunders in the history of the organization.
Overthinking things (IMO)  
giants#1 : 5/8/2018 9:21 am : link
QBs - IIRC, they've (DG and/or Shurmur) mentioned that there wasn't a consensus on the QBs, meaning they liked some things QB A did and other things QB B did and likely didn't view any as a 'can't miss' franchise QB. I think if there was a consensus that another Eli was sitting there, they would've taken him.

Barkley - top RB prospect in years and that's saying a lot with Gurley, Fournette, Elliott coming out recently. But he's more than just a RB as he is exceptional out of the backfield, something some of his detractors like to overlook when they point out his (relatively) low rushing totals from last year. Shurmur has shown he can be very creative offensively and with the Vikes did an excellent job maximizing the talent and finding mismatches. DG also drafted a similar (but far less explosive) player in Christian McCaffrey #8 overall last year. Like CM, Barkley won't be expected to run the ball 20-25 times/game, but could easily see 20+ touches per game as they look to get him the ball in open space and move him around to create mismatches.

Normally, dump-offs are extremely reliable (I say *normally* because the Giants RBs were awful last year) and if you have an explosive player like Barkley they can even lead to big plays and a much more efficient offense. How many times will Barkley need to beat a LB in the flat before teams start covering him with a safety or extra DB? And the second the safeties start cheating up a little or hesitate, Beckham is blowing past them or Engram is getting behind them down the seam.
RE: If DG was truly honest  
Matt in SGS : 5/8/2018 9:26 am : link
In comment 13957662 JonC said:
Quote:
then SB was their target, end of story.

Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.


I think JonC is on target here. Gettleman himself said it fairly simply "you have the #2 pick, don't over think it". The most significant thing I think Gettleman said on draft night was that if you have to talk yourself into a pick, especially that high, you don't make the pick because you have to live with it.

He's pretty clearly talking about the QBs, and Sam Darnold specifically. If you have Barkley so highly rated, and there are no good trade down options, and you aren't sold on the QBs, I'd imagine this wasn't that hard a decision for Gettleman to make once Mayfield went #1.
RE: If DG was truly honest  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:35 am : link
In comment 13957662 JonC said:
Quote:
then SB was their target, end of story.

Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.


He was their target partially b/c they believe Eli has 'years' left as many involved in the decision making put it.
IMO  
gmen9892 : 5/8/2018 9:36 am : link
1 of these 2 things had to be true in order for the Giants to pass on Darnold.

1) They emphatically believe that Eli has AT LEAST 2 more years left of above average play. They probably believe his downfall was due to a horrible supporting cast and system, like many on this site believe.

or

2) They really think they have something in Webb. The Lauletta pick fell to them late and they couldn't pass on getting some competition, but they are obviously liking what they are seeing and hearing out of Webb.

We will/should 100% know the answer to #1 after this season, as this should be the best supporting cast Eli has had in 5+ years. The answer to #2 comes shortly thereafter.
Looking at their draft  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 9:37 am : link
I think there was a change from Jr to DG in approach and that they switch from a tiered hierarchy to a straight vertical list.
As Matt wrote  
JonC : 5/8/2018 9:37 am : link
DG's point about talking yourself into a prospect looms large.

You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.
RE: RE: If DG was truly honest  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:38 am : link
In comment 13957695 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 13957662 JonC said:


Quote:


then SB was their target, end of story.

Clearly, they believe Eli's got something left AND they didn't believe in a QB over SB. Time will tell if they were right.



I think JonC is on target here. Gettleman himself said it fairly simply "you have the #2 pick, don't over think it". The most significant thing I think Gettleman said on draft night was that if you have to talk yourself into a pick, especially that high, you don't make the pick because you have to live with it.

He's pretty clearly talking about the QBs, and Sam Darnold specifically. If you have Barkley so highly rated, and there are no good trade down options, and you aren't sold on the QBs, I'd imagine this wasn't that hard a decision for Gettleman to make once Mayfield went #1.


I still haven't seen anyone answer this question: Does DG pass up Darnold if they thought Eli was 'done' or very nearly finished?

Yes Barkley carried a rare grade, I certainly agree with this. However I just see no way we pass on Darnold if they thought Eli was done.
what is so difficult to understand here? They could think Eli close to  
Victor in CT : 5/8/2018 9:38 am : link
done AND also think that none of the QBs are worth that pick.
RE: As Matt wrote  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:39 am : link
In comment 13957711 JonC said:
Quote:
DG's point about talking yourself into a prospect looms large.

You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.


This is where we disagree then. I think the prospect was present but they didn't deem their to be enough of a 'current need' to take him.
I think that would be short sighted and dangerous  
JonC : 5/8/2018 9:41 am : link
and not very professionally thought out.
RE: IMO  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:42 am : link
In comment 13957707 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
1 of these 2 things had to be true in order for the Giants to pass on Darnold.

1) They emphatically believe that Eli has AT LEAST 2 more years left of above average play. They probably believe his downfall was due to a horrible supporting cast and system, like many on this site believe.

or

2) They really think they have something in Webb. The Lauletta pick fell to them late and they couldn't pass on getting some competition, but they are obviously liking what they are seeing and hearing out of Webb.

We will/should 100% know the answer to #1 after this season, as this should be the best supporting cast Eli has had in 5+ years. The answer to #2 comes shortly thereafter.


EXACTLY. Or even a combination of the two and they further hedged their bets on Webb by taking a second tier QB in Lauletta. Taking him in the fourth meant no where near the commitment of taking a QB #2 overall (which would have likely meant moving on from Eli at the end of the year-which they obviously weren't ready to commit to do.)
pretty much everyone on the planet  
blueblood : 5/8/2018 9:45 am : link
had Barkley as the best player on their board. The Giants took the best rater player coming out of college. Really not hard to understand or even accept the rationale. Barkley is a better player that any of the QB's.

Barkley helps your running game.
He helps your passing game.
He helps create defensive mismatches.
He helps putting the play action back in the Giants offense.
He helps protect your QB.
He helps your 4 minute offense.
He helps your time of possession.
He helps your defense.

Its simple he helps many phases of the game and he helps NOW and in the future..



RE: I think that would be short sighted and dangerous  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 13957718 JonC said:
Quote:
and not very professionally thought out.


Like I said right or wrong, Darnold was very high on their board. They weren't ready to part with Eli whom they believe has 'years' left AND while feeling strongly they can win now in his remaining 'championship' window.

We will see in a couple years just how wise a decision this is. If we win a championship or close to it before Eli retires, that makes this is a sound decision even if one of Darnold or Rosen become a franchise QB.

Or of course if Webb or Lauletta turn out to be legitimate upper level Qbs.
Joe, agree with JonC’s last post here.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/8/2018 9:47 am : link
Barkley or no Barkley, if they saw something long term “franchise” here, they would have snapped up one of the QBs and that would have been the correct call, generational back or not, imo
Joe  
JonC : 5/8/2018 9:49 am : link
I think you're missing the forest for the trees, read blueblood's post.
RE: RE: As Matt wrote  
Victor in CT : 5/8/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13957716 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957711 JonC said:


Quote:


DG's point about talking yourself into a prospect looms large.

You don't force the pick. I was very vocal about preferring a QB if they believed one was the guy to takeover for Eli. They decided that prospect was not present.



This is where we disagree then. I think the prospect was present but they didn't deem their to be enough of a 'current need' to take him.


dammit man how dense are you??? I wasn't abot need! it was about getting the player they most believed in!
and "Darnold was very high on their board"  
JonC : 5/8/2018 9:50 am : link
probably was #4 at highest.

They stuck to their draft board.
Most who know my posts know that Eli is no deity to me  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/8/2018 9:54 am : link
However, eliminating random injury as a contributing factor,

I honestly believe that Eli (warts and all) is a better QB in 2018 and 2019 than any of 5 QBs we can possibly be discussing.

Factor in the relative position of SB's football player evaluation grade compared to the QBs' evaluation as players.

Wildcard factor: It is possible, not likely but not ludicrous, that Webb is better than any of the 5 in 2020.

It should have taken DG about 2 seconds to make this decision.

















if they truly wanted a franchise QB, all they had to do is to look at  
JohnB : 5/8/2018 9:55 am : link
their roster and see "Manning, Eli".

Barkley and a good (great?) running game makes any QB look a whole lot better. And it will for Eli too.

~Take the best player in the draft
~Get a player that helps your franchise QB be a better player
~Bring in a high quality, hard working player
~Take one of the best lineman in the draft with the 2nd round pick

It is damn tough to find a franchise QB but when you do, you don't let them go until you know that are finished. Eli isn't!!

RE: and  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 9:58 am : link
In comment 13957737 JonC said:
Quote:
probably was #4 at highest.

They stuck to their draft board.


Still haven't heard someone come out and say it.

So regardless of what they felt about Eli, you believe Saquon would have been the pick?

I could see passing on Mayfield,Allen and possibly Rosen. But not Sam. Just Too good production and personality match for what they look for.
RE: if they truly wanted a franchise QB, all they had to do is to look at  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 10:00 am : link
In comment 13957743 JohnB said:
Quote:
their roster and see "Manning, Eli".


It is damn tough to find a franchise QB but when you do, you don't let them go until you know that are finished. Eli isn't!!


John I think their thinking centers more on this than Darnold's grade. They don't want to let go of a Qb they think has years of championship football left.
People waiting..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/8/2018 10:02 am : link
for something to come out about the draft day decision are going to be sorely disappointed because I doubt that information is ever coming out.

Sadly, it doesn't stop the multitude of threads thinking the information will come out and the theories behind what the thinking was.

JonC and Victor have pretty much given the most rational view.

Thinking the situation is getting clearer from comments by DG isn't going to happen.
RE: RE: and  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 10:04 am : link
In comment 13957750 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957737 JonC said:


Quote:


probably was #4 at highest.

They stuck to their draft board.



Still haven't heard someone come out and say it.

So regardless of what they felt about Eli, you believe Saquon would have been the pick?

I could see passing on Mayfield,Allen and possibly Rosen. But not Sam. Just Too good production and personality match for what they look for.

It seems contradictory that you would have skepticism about one person's statement on the team's vluation of Darnold but in other posts insist that the Giants valued Darnold highly. I'd like to see someone come out and say that too.

In truth, there's a lot of conjecture here about the what the Giants themselves believed. Maybe not so much conjecture but transference of our own views onto the brain of DG
It had to do with their view of the QB more than anything  
BSIMatt : 5/8/2018 10:09 am : link
I think Darnold while a very good prospect had enough question marks to knock him down a peg. You should be pretty damn near squeaky clean to go top 2 and to hear the issue of Darnold regressing last year instead of improving was likely enough to take the shine off him(however had that not been the case he’d likely have gone #1 over mayfield). However, I do think their assessment of Eli obviously played a large role, if they had Cleveland or NYJ QB situation on their hands they’d have run to the podium to take Darnold and Barkley would not have been in play. Having Eli allowed them the luxury of taking highest graded player. I think Webb would be an absolute non factor in them choosing wether to draft Darnold.
They've made their thinking pretty clear  
UberAlias : 5/8/2018 10:14 am : link
For my part, I saw this as a golden opportunity to set themselves up with elite QB for years to come. That said, it would have been foolish to take a QB for the sake of taking a QB. As it turned out, I saw two prospects as potentially franchise altering - Sam Darnold and Saquon Barkley. Both were on the board when they picked, and at the end of the day, I suspect there may come a day when they regret passing on Darnold, but they should not regret taking Barkley, if that makes sense.

Time will tell. I think it's past time to move on from this debate. It will undoubtedly resurface many times over, but for now we should get behind the decision and enjoy the truly special addition to the team. The impact SB is going to have for Eli and Odell is going to be massive.
With all of the picks, based upon DG's comments  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 10:16 am : link
they picked the top value player. Even for Carter and Hill DG specifically said that it was lucky that need matched up with value.

Occam's razor on Barkley...and every other pick they made...is that DG spoke truth. The name at the top of the ability/talent/value list (value being *solely* a function of ability and talent) was Barkley in the first round, Hernandez in the second round, Carter at 3a...etc.

I really do think that they switched from the previous regime having a tier of talent and then picking by need to a straight vertical list of ability and then just going straight down that list to pick the top name at their time to pick.

If they factored in need and selected from a tier of similarly ranked people, DG was first of all lying, and second of all, they would have taken a lot more time to deliberate before picking.
IOW, if they had Darnold ranked at #4  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 10:17 am : link
then they would only have picked him if they picked 4th (or later if someone picked a person (like Mayfield) who was not 1-3 on their list.
I think they knew that this team isn't ready for a rookie QB.  
Motley Two : 5/8/2018 10:23 am : link
New GM, New Head Coach, New Systems, New Playbook, New Culture.

If I'm the new Head Coach in that situation, I wouldn't really want "Make Rookie QB our next franchise QB" on my plate. It's recipe for disaster.

I'd want the vet QB leading my offensive meetings while I try to fix the mess and get the 52 other guys up to speed. Get the team ready and to the point where a rookie QB can come in and have success.
If Saquon lives up to the “once in a generation type player” hype  
est1986 : 5/8/2018 10:23 am : link
People will still question the pick... I don’t know what to tell them... If Saquon plays as well as he is capable of playing in his first two years, we will be in some playoff games, and if Eli has anything left he can lead one last playoff run IMO. By the time Darnold develops into a great QB like I think he will, this entire team will have had to be rebuilt and we will have to witness several really bad years with no guarantee of contention any time soon. Loving the Saquon pick more and more each day as we get closer to seeing him in action, can’t wait. Does Giants rookie mini camp start this Friday?
When we were on the clock I really thought they were going to  
SGMen : 5/8/2018 10:27 am : link
call the Jets and say "you want Darnold, give us the #3 and a draft pick or two...." - everyone knew the Jets wanted Darnold. Fleecing a team is good. LOL.

But seriously, if Barkley is Adrian Peterson but a better receiver & blocker than we did well. If not, we'll never hear the end of it.
I guess I missed it when it was announced but uh...  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 10:28 am : link
why do you guys keep calling him Joe?
it's JerseyJoe  
JonC : 5/8/2018 10:29 am : link
.
I still don't get all the love for Darnold.  
Jeever : 5/8/2018 10:30 am : link
If his performance in the bowl game was any indication I'd be running in the other direction as fast as I could. You say he didn't have a good OL or offensive weapons. What does that tell you.

I don't care how great a QB you are. If you can't run the ball and stop the run and pressure the QB you're not going to win very many games. I like Gettleman addressing our running game and the OL.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If the Ravens can win a SB with Trent "Effin" Dilfer at QB what does that tell you. They won because the could run the ball and stop the run and pressure the QB on defense.

I predict the Giants will win another SB before Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield ever do.
RE: If Saquon lives up to the “once in a generation type player” hype  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13957780 est1986 said:
Quote:
People will still question the pick... I don’t know what to tell them... If Saquon plays as well as he is capable of playing in his first two years, we will be in some playoff games, and if Eli has anything left he can lead one last playoff run IMO. By the time Darnold develops into a great QB like I think he will, this entire team will have had to be rebuilt and we will have to witness several really bad years with no guarantee of contention any time soon. Loving the Saquon pick more and more each day as we get closer to seeing him in action, can’t wait. Does Giants rookie mini camp start this Friday?


I love the pick. I think it just underscores that ownership believes we are in a 'win now' window (despite last year's debacle) while Eli still has life in his arm.

They're trying to build the best team they can now in 2018  
JonC : 5/8/2018 10:42 am : link
and Kim Jones also reported there's a plan in place to quickly rebuild over the next 2-3 years. You could say that's a view that suggests the window is open now and they're trying to keep it open for whatever Eli's got left, as well as bring a QB along during the process.

Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.
RE: When we were on the clock I really thought they were going to  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 13957786 SGMen said:
Quote:
call the Jets and say "you want Darnold, give us the #3 and a draft pick or two...." - everyone knew the Jets wanted Darnold. Fleecing a team is good. LOL.

But seriously, if Barkley is Adrian Peterson but a better receiver & blocker than we did well. If not, we'll never hear the end of it.


I think it's more the results. If we win a SuperBowl or at least come close and Barkley plays a big role in Eli's remaining few years, this will be considered the 'right' move.

However if we don't and/or one of Darnold or Rosen become a top 10 NFL QB for the next 10-15 years this will be questioned for years to come.

I actually agree with Giants thinking. I believe Eli has a few years left and Barkley could have even more a positive impact than Gurley,Zeke and Fournette have had leading their teams to the playoffs.

And of course if either Webb or Lauletta at least prove to be in range of what Darnold or Rosen become that in itself further justifies the pick.
RE: RE: If Saquon lives up to the “once in a generation type player” hype  
Big Blue '56 : 5/8/2018 10:44 am : link
In comment 13957804 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957780 est1986 said:


Quote:


People will still question the pick... I don’t know what to tell them... If Saquon plays as well as he is capable of playing in his first two years, we will be in some playoff games, and if Eli has anything left he can lead one last playoff run IMO. By the time Darnold develops into a great QB like I think he will, this entire team will have had to be rebuilt and we will have to witness several really bad years with no guarantee of contention any time soon. Loving the Saquon pick more and more each day as we get closer to seeing him in action, can’t wait. Does Giants rookie mini camp start this Friday?



I love the pick. I think it just underscores that ownership believes we are in a 'win now' window (despite last year's debacle) while Eli still has life in his arm.


Too, Shurmur had Keenum 1 win from the SB. He was great with Foles when he was first with Philly. Did well with Bradford pre injury. Aside from the fact that they considered SB a no-brainer, I have to believe Webb or Lauletta could manage this O under the aegis of Shurmur if necessary.
RE: They're trying to build the best team they can now in 2018  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 10:46 am : link
In comment 13957810 JonC said:
Quote:
and Kim Jones also reported there's a plan in place to quickly rebuild over the next 2-3 years. You could say that's a view that suggests the window is open now and they're trying to keep it open for whatever Eli's got left, as well as bring a QB along during the process.

Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.


Which is a big reason why they chose Barkley and not Darnold. B/C if they didnt feel they could 'win now' (or soon) they likely don't pass up on the franchise talent of Darnold.
So I'm listening to some guy on YouTube talk about the draft...  
Klaatu : 5/8/2018 10:49 am : link
Don't know who he is, never listened to him before, just killing some time, don't even remember his name or the name of his channel.

Anyway, he says that while he really liked the Giants' draft, he also really didn't like it, because even if Barkley turns out to be "the next big thing" at RB, it won't mean anything if Eli Manning is cooked. The Giants will have blown their best chance at getting a franchise QB to succeed him, and they'll regret it for the next fifteen years.

Fifteen years? Seriously? Yup, that's what he said. Fifteen years.

I thought that was pretty stupid. Even if Manning is cooked, even if Webb or Lauletta never amount to anything more than acceptable back-ups, would it really take them that long to find another QB that could lead them to glory? I don't think so. They may go through some lean years, but if they can put together a team that's relatively stout across the board while they're looking for their QB (in the draft, through free-agency, or via a trade), well, so be it.

I look at what the 2005 Steelers were able to do with a dominant defense, a monster running game, and the 11th pick in the '04 draft in his second year at QB, and I don't worry too much about what the Giants didn't do in this year's draft.
RE: So I'm listening to some guy on YouTube talk about the draft...  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13957822 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Don't know who he is, never listened to him before, just killing some time, don't even remember his name or the name of his channel.

Anyway, he says that while he really liked the Giants' draft, he also really didn't like it, because even if Barkley turns out to be "the next big thing" at RB, it won't mean anything if Eli Manning is cooked. The Giants will have blown their best chance at getting a franchise QB to succeed him, and they'll regret it for the next fifteen years.

Fifteen years? Seriously? Yup, that's what he said. Fifteen years.

I thought that was pretty stupid. Even if Manning is cooked, even if Webb or Lauletta never amount to anything more than acceptable back-ups, would it really take them that long to find another QB that could lead them to glory? I don't think so. They may go through some lean years, but if they can put together a team that's relatively stout across the board while they're looking for their QB (in the draft, through free-agency, or via a trade), well, so be it.

I look at what the 2005 Steelers were able to do with a dominant defense, a monster running game, and the 11th pick in the '04 draft in his second year at QB, and I don't worry too much about what the Giants didn't do in this year's draft.


There has been alot of debate on the top 4 guys in this draft. I guess it all depends on your 'final' grade on 3 of the 4 (since Mayfield went #1). If you beleive that one or more of Allen,Rosen or Darnold will become franchise Qbs it makes the debate all the more interesting.

Because if Eli falls apart too soon and Webb /Lauletta aren't legit NFL QB's and one of those guys turn into the next Eli, Ben Roethlisberger or Phil Rivers, this could become a historic miss for the organization.

Of course swing the pendulum the other way and we win a championship with Eli and Barkley playing big roles in the next 2-3 years and it possibly becomes the best decision ever.
RE: RE: They're trying to build the best team they can now in 2018  
Big Blue '56 : 5/8/2018 10:57 am : link
In comment 13957815 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957810 JonC said:


Quote:


and Kim Jones also reported there's a plan in place to quickly rebuild over the next 2-3 years. You could say that's a view that suggests the window is open now and they're trying to keep it open for whatever Eli's got left, as well as bring a QB along during the process.

Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.



Which is a big reason why they chose Barkley and not Darnold. B/C if they didnt feel they could 'win now' (or soon) they likely don't pass up on the franchise talent of Darnold.


If they BELIEVED he was a franchise talent in the first place. They weren’t going to settle or force such a high pick. DG said this many times
Barkley was the easy pick for what Getteman was looking for  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 10:59 am : link
a great player with minimal to no risk.

DG gave his folks plenty of opportunities to convince him to go with another player but nobody was able to.

He also was never going to trade that pick.

Therefore, we have Saquon Barkley.

Lets play ball...
RE: it's JerseyJoe  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13957791 JonC said:
Quote:
.


Oooooohhhhh... didn't know that. Thanks.
I wanted a QB, but let's be clear ...  
DonQuixote : 5/8/2018 11:04 am : link
Barkley is an outstanding prospect.

The other thing to think about wrt Davis Webb is that he was drafted in the 3rd round because he was not NFL ready. Now fast forward one year, and maybe he is more ready than he was last year, maybe he is a better prospect now than he was a year ago. If so, he might very well be a first round value, today, in the eyes of the Giants management.

Davis and Lauletta are literally two months apart, age wise. I am not so sure where Davis would be ranked in this year's draft if you took his college tape and added a year of experience on an NFL practice squad. I suspect he is above the third rounder in terms of value to the organization, and may have graded out above several of the highly touted QB's, which is what really matters.
RE: Barkley was the easy pick for what Getteman was looking for  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13957836 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
a great player with minimal to no risk.

DG gave his folks plenty of opportunities to convince him to go with another player but nobody was able to.

He also was never going to trade that pick.

Therefore, we have Saquon Barkley.

Lets play ball...


This thread's original intent was not to question the pick but moreso to see if we could figure out Giants thinking behind it.

Obviously there are many variables but the big one in my estimation is they believe Eli has years left AND that they could compete for a championship in his remaining window. Otherwise, I just don't see them passing up Darnold at #2.
RE: RE: They're trying to build the best team they can now in 2018  
JonC : 5/8/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13957815 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957810 JonC said:


Quote:


and Kim Jones also reported there's a plan in place to quickly rebuild over the next 2-3 years. You could say that's a view that suggests the window is open now and they're trying to keep it open for whatever Eli's got left, as well as bring a QB along during the process.

Many here have a problem with the word rebuild ... this wasn't a tear down start from scratch rebuild. But, they are rebuilding the defense, the OL, and the offensive scheme, as well as depth/specials.



Which is a big reason why they chose Barkley and not Darnold. B/C if they didnt feel they could 'win now' (or soon) they likely don't pass up on the franchise talent of Darnold.


I was one of Darnold's biggest supporters here, and even I don't think that statement is truth, and all the other facts and logic suggest the contrary.

They stayed true to their board and conviction on SB.

What "thinking"..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/8/2018 11:15 am : link
are you really trying to parse out?

DG said Barkley was graded as high as Peyton Manning. They've basically said without saying that Barkley carried a much higher grade than the other QB's (Chubb was supposedly the next closest).

It's ponderous that you're trying to figure out something that's already been laid out pretty clearly.

But I'm guessing it will be 100 more threads before it finally sinks in.
RE: RE: Barkley was the easy pick for what Getteman was looking for  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 13957857 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957836 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


a great player with minimal to no risk.

DG gave his folks plenty of opportunities to convince him to go with another player but nobody was able to.

He also was never going to trade that pick.

Therefore, we have Saquon Barkley.

Lets play ball...



This thread's original intent was not to question the pick but moreso to see if we could figure out Giants thinking behind it.

Obviously there are many variables but the big one in my estimation is they believe Eli has years left AND that they could compete for a championship in his remaining window. Otherwise, I just don't see them passing up Darnold at #2.


I gave you all the thinking you need behind it.
If they really did as they say they do  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 11:26 am : link
and go with a value board and best player board, then any jibber jabber about QB's (Eli, Webb, Darnold, or any others) is just hot air. It's nice to whimsically speculate but everyone is living in Candyland. The QB discussion (the current one or the future one) was completely irrelevant to their thought process and not even considered in the decision-making. It turned out to be just a fan thing.
Morning Drive yesterday.  
Boy Cord : 5/8/2018 11:43 am : link
Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.

Both have strong arguments. Papa’s has the lower chance of success IMO as I feel the odds are greater that Rosen or Darnold have a higher percentage chance of being franchise QBs than the Giants winning a Super Bowl in the next few years. Modern-day NFL wisdom says you go with the potential franchise QB.

Giants picked #2 in 1981 and got LT. I was a newly-minted teen when LT was drafted so I don’t remember what the pre-draft chatter was before the 1981 draft. Were people calling for a QB?

The only two QBs hat has any NFL success out of that draft were Neil Lomax and Wade Wilson, and only one was drafted in the first round at #6.

Sounds like the decision to go non-QB was pretty damn easy compared to this year. What I’m rambling on about is I find myself on both sides of the fence: wanted a QB but damn excited to see SB on the field. It just is what it is.

The bottom line is, the dust hasn’t settled and it won’t settle for a long time, if ever. This decision has the fodder that will last the players’ careers and becomes football lore that will be hotly debated for possibly decades.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/8/2018 11:45 am : link
Ah, I was wondering which old poster this was....
RE: Morning Drive yesterday.  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 13957918 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.
RE: RE: Morning Drive yesterday.  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 13957925 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957918 Boy Cord said:


Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.





This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.
Again...how in the world do you know what the Giants were thinking?
And, what do they want for Christmas?  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 11:51 am : link
and can you tell me their ATM pin numbers?
Suggesting they picked SB over a QB strictly to go for it now  
JonC : 5/8/2018 11:53 am : link
doesn't take into account how they viewed the QB prospects at all ... while DG is on the record describing how you can't pick a kid you had to talk yourself into.

Believe what you will. I wanted Darnold to wear Blue, but they know better than me if he's going to be a better pro than SB.
Last opinion on this thread:  
Big Blue '56 : 5/8/2018 11:56 am : link
To those who believe that the top tier QBs were of franchise quality, the Giants say you WERE WRONG. There is no way ANY personnel guy/QB guru is going to pass on a genuine franchise QB that they saw live, on tape and with access to meticulous scouting reports to take a RB, even if that RB is one of a kind.

Could they be wrong and you right? Sure, it happens of course. But the odds of them being wrong and you right? Just sayin’/askin’.
The OP  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13957925 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:


This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.


You seem intent to push the idea that the Barkley decision was all about DG saying that Eli is his guy for some reason. Maybe he is...maybe he isn't but you don't know.

For all you know, DG just simply loved Barkley and Eli is going to be cut next year with the offense turned over to another QB on the roster (or player to be named later).

Or maybe even DG doesn't know but this was the least risky path in his new job.

You want me to keep going with other maybes?

And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
Go Terps : 5/8/2018 12:12 pm : link
Quote:
Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.


This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.
Think Shurmur and DG think  
TMS : 5/8/2018 12:27 pm : link
the potential of someone with Barkley's size, speed and skill set, are very rare. A chance to put together an offense different than those out there now. Think he will be used big in the passing game and force teams to double him because of his 'take it to the house" ability anytime". Opening everybody else up. Should be fun to watch.
RE: And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13957971 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.
The operative words in your post are "I believe..."

Very similar to the BoM song.
RE: At the end of the day, Joe  
Knee of Theismann : 5/8/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13957646 JonC said:
Quote:
they picked the #1 player on their board.

The only QB talk I heard was Darnold was the only one they really liked, but it appears he was not any higher than #4 on their board, behind SB, Chubb, Nelson.

They stayed true to their board.


JonC,

Well-said and simply put. The only way they were picking a QB would have been Darnold, but they probably didn't think he was worth the #2 pick. However, they knew another team did think he was worth a very high pick, so it's not like they could trade down and still get him. Barkley was #1 on their board, but he would not have lasted past pick #4, I believe, so they stayed put and took him. When you can get the #1 player at the #2 pick, and that player also fills a glaring need, you trust your process and make the selection and never look back.
The QB’s  
Phil in LA : 5/8/2018 12:35 pm : link
Were wildly overrated. Darnold should have stayed in school.
What's funny about this draft  
Go Terps : 5/8/2018 12:43 pm : link
I bet right now Baltimore wouldn't trade Lamar Jackson for Baker Mayfield straight up.

Lots of varying views of this draft. It will be interesting in 3 or 4 years to look back.
I think it would be funny as shit  
Bill L : 5/8/2018 12:48 pm : link
if the best QB, or maybe even the only superlative QB, that came out of this draft was Lauletta or Rudolph or some other mid/late round guy who didn't get much special consideration.
RE: Think Shurmur and DG think  
Knee of Theismann : 5/8/2018 1:00 pm : link
In comment 13957992 TMS said:
Quote:
the potential of someone with Barkley's size, speed and skill set, are very rare. A chance to put together an offense different than those out there now. Think he will be used big in the passing game and force teams to double him because of his 'take it to the house" ability anytime". Opening everybody else up. Should be fun to watch.


This is a great insight and one I hadn't really thought of: Beckham, Engram, and Barkley are all players that bring a combination of skills and physical gifts that almost no else has. They could possibly create a new type of offense that we've never even seen before. Imagine how hyped an offensive guru like Shurmur must be about that?
RE: The OP  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 1:00 pm : link
In comment 13957951 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13957925 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:




This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.



You seem intent to push the idea that the Barkley decision was all about DG saying that Eli is his guy for some reason. Maybe he is...maybe he isn't but you don't know.

For all you know, DG just simply loved Barkley and Eli is going to be cut next year with the offense turned over to another QB on the roster (or player to be named later).

Or maybe even DG doesn't know but this was the least risky path in his new job.

You want me to keep going with other maybes?


Don't doubt he loved Barkley. Not at all.

But so did the Browns and they went QB#1. Why?

Because they don't believe Tyrod Taylor is the answer at QB. Giants right or wrong believe Eli is STILL the answer at Qb for at least a few more years.
RE: Suggesting they picked SB over a QB strictly to go for it now  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13957937 JonC said:
Quote:
doesn't take into account how they viewed the QB prospects at all ... while DG is on the record describing how you can't pick a kid you had to talk yourself into.

Believe what you will. I wanted Darnold to wear Blue, but they know better than me if he's going to be a better pro than SB.


As Daniel Jeremiah said you take the B+ Qb over the A non-QB every time if you deem it's an immediate (or near immediate need). Thats the importance of the position.

I find it hard to believe that Darnold was not at least a 'B+' guy on their board.

Bottomline it wasn't deemed an immediate need b/c basically all those with the biggest voices in the org basically all said Eli has 'years left'.
RE: And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
Klaatu : 5/8/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13957971 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.


Translation: The Giants didn't move on from Eli many years ago when I thought they should, and now they're doomed for all eternity.
That's your opinion, not necessarily based all on facts either  
JonC : 5/8/2018 1:17 pm : link
and while they have banked on Eli, they clearly picked their #1 prospect in the entire draft (fact) and are building around them (fact) trying to build the best team possible after the draft didn't deliver their franchise QB.

So be it.
Klaatu  
Go Terps : 5/8/2018 1:20 pm : link
You haven't read many of my posts over the years have you? I was here backing up Eli when 90% of this board wanted him run out of town.

Sometimes this place feels like the Twilight Zone.
RE: RE: The OP  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13958030 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13957951 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 13957925 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:




This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.



You seem intent to push the idea that the Barkley decision was all about DG saying that Eli is his guy for some reason. Maybe he is...maybe he isn't but you don't know.

For all you know, DG just simply loved Barkley and Eli is going to be cut next year with the offense turned over to another QB on the roster (or player to be named later).

Or maybe even DG doesn't know but this was the least risky path in his new job.

You want me to keep going with other maybes?




Don't doubt he loved Barkley. Not at all.

But so did the Browns and they went QB#1. Why?

Because they don't believe Tyrod Taylor is the answer at QB. Giants right or wrong believe Eli is STILL the answer at Qb for at least a few more years.


You keep repeating this over and over again like it's some revelation when the team has TOLD all of us that... nearly word for word... over the past few months.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get out of this thread Joe. The Giants believing... rightly or wrongly... that Eli still has some years left could still mean they MIGHT HAVE gone with Barkley regardless if they didn't think he (Eli) had any years left for different reasons... from:

- Barkley being too good of a prospect to pass up (which is what they've said)

- faith that Eli has a few good year left (which is what they've also said)

- faith that either Webb is good enough to lead the team moving forward or another good QB could be acquired if need be (which although they didn't say could certainly be a possibility)

And maybe another one or two reasons I haven't thought of.

I just don't know what you're trying to get at with this thread Joe. You're either answering a lot of your own questions... or can simply choose to believe the various answers that have been given to you by not only various posters here have given you but the GM and coach themselves have given you. So what are you trying to figure out?

RE: Klaatu  
Klaatu : 5/8/2018 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13958057 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You haven't read many of my posts over the years have you? I was here backing up Eli when 90% of this board wanted him run out of town.

Sometimes this place feels like the Twilight Zone.


No way. With his salary? Well...color me shocked, and let me apologize.
RE: RE: And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
YAJ2112 : 5/8/2018 1:31 pm : link
In comment 13958047 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13957971 Go Terps said:


Quote:




Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.



Translation: The Giants didn't move on from Eli many years ago when I thought they should, and now they're doomed for all eternity.


I love how Rivers is held in high esteem here, despite the fact that the Chargers have made the playoffs once in the last 8 seasons - even worse than the Giants. Why isn't Terps calling out the Chargers for not trying to replace Rivers at this point?
YAJ  
Go Terps : 5/8/2018 1:35 pm : link
Because I'm not a Chargers fan. If I were, I'd have wanted San Diego to get one of these quarterbacks and move on from Rivers.
RE: RE: RE: The OP  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13958061 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13958030 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:


In comment 13957951 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 13957925 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:




This is the crux of the Giants thinking. Eli has a window and we are going for it. If we win with Barkley playing a key role they made the right decision , if we don't then it can be questioned especially if one of Darnold,Rosen or Allen end up being franchise/super star Qbs.



You seem intent to push the idea that the Barkley decision was all about DG saying that Eli is his guy for some reason. Maybe he is...maybe he isn't but you don't know.

For all you know, DG just simply loved Barkley and Eli is going to be cut next year with the offense turned over to another QB on the roster (or player to be named later).

Or maybe even DG doesn't know but this was the least risky path in his new job.

You want me to keep going with other maybes?




Don't doubt he loved Barkley. Not at all.

But so did the Browns and they went QB#1. Why?

Because they don't believe Tyrod Taylor is the answer at QB. Giants right or wrong believe Eli is STILL the answer at Qb for at least a few more years.



You keep repeating this over and over again like it's some revelation when the team has TOLD all of us that... nearly word for word... over the past few months.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get out of this thread Joe. The Giants believing... rightly or wrongly... that Eli still has some years left could still mean they MIGHT HAVE gone with Barkley regardless if they didn't think he (Eli) had any years left for different reasons... from:

- Barkley being too good of a prospect to pass up (which is what they've said)

- faith that Eli has a few good year left (which is what they've also said)

- faith that either Webb is good enough to lead the team moving forward or another good QB could be acquired if need be (which although they didn't say could certainly be a possibility)

And maybe another one or two reasons I haven't thought of.

I just don't know what you're trying to get at with this thread Joe. You're either answering a lot of your own questions... or can simply choose to believe the various answers that have been given to you by not only various posters here have given you but the GM and coach themselves have given you. So what are you trying to figure out?


Point is Barkley wasnt just picked because he was a great grade. Thats only part of the story. Darnold was bypassed because they didnt want to give up on Eli too soon. Darnold is likely our pick at #2 if they thought Eli was done. Darnold very likely had plenty a good enough grade if ownership considered QB a need.
I will repeat...you seem to want to push and have everybody agree  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 1:41 pm : link
that this pick was all about Eli having year(s) left. So much that you are now hypothesizing as to how the Browns GM is thinking and you are putting your own subjective grades against some of the players to help make this case. None of which could be true.

Not sure why, but I have now reached the moment when I say,

whatever...

T-Bone..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/8/2018 1:41 pm : link
this is exactly why JerseyJoe has to rinse and repeat every so often:

Quote:
You keep repeating this over and over again like it's some revelation when the team has TOLD all of us that... nearly word for word... over the past few months.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get out of this thread Joe. The Giants believing... rightly or wrongly... that Eli still has some years left could still mean they MIGHT HAVE gone with Barkley regardless if they didn't think he (Eli) had any years left for different reasons... from:


He develops an assumption. Beats it to death no matter what the dissenting evidence is and pollutes the board with multiple threads on the same variation of his assumption.

He's not going to gain anything out of it and BBI is going to be littered with useless threads pretty much saying the same thing, all started by the same guy.

Look - he acts like he wants to be definitively told what the Giants were thinking, but he already thinks he knows what they were thinking. It's lunacy.
RE: And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13957971 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.


At what point (what season?) do you think the Giants should've gone in a different direction Terps?

You say that the Giants have had this philosophy since Eli's been drafted... which has given the team two Super Bowl titles (the same amount as Ben and 2 more than Rivers... despite the records of the franchises with the respective QBs in charge)... meanwhile pointing out the winning percentages of the franchises. Which doesn't make much sense to me because I'm pretty sure you aren's suggesting that the team should've been looking to replace Eli after his rookie and/or fourth (after the first Super Bowl win) seasons. So are you suggesting that they should've been looking to go into a different directions after the second win? Two years after that? Two years ago? Last year? When?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The OP  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13958093 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13958061 T-Bone said:

Point is Barkley wasnt just picked because he was a great grade. Thats only part of the story. Darnold was bypassed because they didnt want to give up on Eli too soon. Darnold is likely our pick at #2 if they thought Eli was done. Darnold very likely had plenty a good enough grade if ownership considered QB a need.


You don't KNOW that though dude. Maybe he WAS picked simply because he was the best player on the board. I mean... I wouldn't be surprised if their belief that Eli has some years left played a role as well... but maybe it didn't play as much of a role as you seem to think and DG said 'Damn that... I got to get this kid (Barkley) on my team come hell or high water!' and decided to take him. AND, maybe DG didn't think that any of the other QBs were enough of a 'sure thing' to take over what most considered to be one of the few 'sure things' in the draft (that also hit a position of need).

I'm not sure why this matters to be honest.
LOL!  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 1:49 pm : link
Quote:
Look - he acts like he wants to be definitively told what the Giants were thinking, but he already thinks he knows what they were thinking. It's lunacy.


I gotta be real with ya Joe... this seems to be the point of this thread in a nutshell.
T-Bone  
Go Terps : 5/8/2018 1:53 pm : link
The time to go in a different direction at quarterback was this past offseason: new GM, new coach, a draft that had 5 first round quarterback prospects, and we were picking second overall. Yeah it would have been better had those other elements lined up perfectly with Eli's retirement, but that type of serendipity rarely happens in life.

Yeah we've got two Super Bowls and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but can we really say those were great teams that were the result of a great team building model? Should we use those experiences to inform our decisions going forward?

We had the extremely rare good fortune of having probably the best quarterback in the history of the team healthy for 14 years straight. That is an incredible advantage over the rest of the league in that time period. And we're 8 games over .500 with him. We've won 12 games once in those 14 years. I think there's a failure there somewhere, and if I were running the team I'd want to identify that failure so I don't repeat it going forward.
Love you guys, but when we want to judge someone  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 1:57 pm : link
badly enough we can always find a way.....
RE: What's funny about this draft  
arcarsenal : 5/8/2018 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13958013 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I bet right now Baltimore wouldn't trade Lamar Jackson for Baker Mayfield straight up.

Lots of varying views of this draft. It will be interesting in 3 or 4 years to look back.


I bet they would. Cleveland wouldn't.

Mayfield is a better prospect than Jackson. His biggest red flags are his height and personality. He can play. (And I'm someone who liked Jackson more than many here going into the draft)

Kind of a pointless hypothesis anyway - it's not like BAL would ever admit that.
Joe  
JonC : 5/8/2018 2:00 pm : link
You aren't being judged, but your positions certainly are being questioned.
RE: T-Bone  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13958112 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The time to go in a different direction at quarterback was this past offseason: new GM, new coach, a draft that had 5 first round quarterback prospects, and we were picking second overall. Yeah it would have been better had those other elements lined up perfectly with Eli's retirement, but that type of serendipity rarely happens in life.

Yeah we've got two Super Bowls and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but can we really say those were great teams that were the result of a great team building model? Should we use those experiences to inform our decisions going forward?

We had the extremely rare good fortune of having probably the best quarterback in the history of the team healthy for 14 years straight. That is an incredible advantage over the rest of the league in that time period. And we're 8 games over .500 with him. We've won 12 games once in those 14 years. I think there's a failure there somewhere, and if I were running the team I'd want to identify that failure so I don't repeat it going forward.


Regarding your first paragraph... I gotta be honest with you... I felt similarly at the very end of last season and wouldn't have been mad (maybe a lil disappointed because I'm REALLY excited to see a Barkley/Beckham/Engram combo) had we gone QB in this draft because of that thought process. So I can't argue too much with your first paragraph. I just wanted to know when you thought he time to change was.

Regarding your second and third paragraphs though... I'm not sure I 100% agree with them. I mean... besides the Pats how many other teams have been able to keep the level of sustained success that you keep holding against the Giants as a franchise? And to a point it can be argued that the Pats sustained success can be attributed in one part having perhaps the greatest HC/QB duo in league history and the other being in a criminally pathetic division throughout that HC\QB's tenure. How many other division in the league can say that they've had the same team win it as often as the Pats have during the Belichick\Brady run? Meanwhile, most of the other divisions (except for perhaps the NFC West during the Seahawks' heydays a few years ago) had one team be so dominant within their division?

It seems to be you're somewhat holding the norm (no dominant teams in any division) against the Giants when it's the exception (the Pats) that's rare. In many of the winning Super Bowl team's seasons, it's been the team that 'got hot at the right time' that has won it, it seems to me.

Lastly, let's not forget that the QB deserves some of the blame for some of those bad seasons the team has had. It's not like Eli has consistently always played like a top 3-5 QB throughout his Giants career.
While no one was judging you before  
Jimmy Googs : 5/8/2018 2:21 pm : link
that probably had now changed...
RE: Love you guys, but when we want to judge someone  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13958117 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
badly enough we can always find a way.....


I'm not trying to judge you Joe. I actually enjoy and appreciate some of your threads. It's just... like Fatman said... sometimes it seems you post these threads almost like you just want to see your name in lights. I have no beef with you Joe... I'm just saying, in THIS CASE... with THIS THREAD... I'm not really sure what your point is. No offense playa.
RE: RE: Love you guys, but when we want to judge someone  
Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx : 5/8/2018 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13958149 T-Bone said:
Quote:
In comment 13958117 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:


badly enough we can always find a way.....



I'm not trying to judge you Joe. I actually enjoy and appreciate some of your threads. It's just... like Fatman said... sometimes it seems you post these threads almost like you just want to see your name in lights. I have no beef with you Joe... I'm just saying, in THIS CASE... with THIS THREAD... I'm not really sure what your point is. No offense playa.


Its all good bro. I love and pray for everyone here. I was forgiven much through the blood of Christ so I dont judge others but Love them!
For a bible thumper  
JonC : 5/8/2018 3:05 pm : link
you tend to be one disingenuous football poster.
RE: RE: RE: Love you guys, but when we want to judge someone  
T-Bone : 5/8/2018 3:07 pm : link
In comment 13958170 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 13958149 T-Bone said:


Quote:


In comment 13958117 Big_Blue_in_the_Bronx said:


Quote:


badly enough we can always find a way.....



I'm not trying to judge you Joe. I actually enjoy and appreciate some of your threads. It's just... like Fatman said... sometimes it seems you post these threads almost like you just want to see your name in lights. I have no beef with you Joe... I'm just saying, in THIS CASE... with THIS THREAD... I'm not really sure what your point is. No offense playa.



Its all good bro. I love and pray for everyone here. I was forgiven much through the blood of Christ so I dont judge others but Love them!


Well that took a bit of an unexpected turn... but AMEN!
RE: And this, to me, is the crux of it all:  
WillVAB : 5/8/2018 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13957971 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.



This has been the Giants' approach to team building since they traded for Eli Manning in 2004. If their organizational philosophy could be summed up in a phrase, it would be "make one more run with Eli." I believe that is once again the current approach.

I also believe that approach is flawed, and the biggest reason why the Giants are only 8 games over .500 (111-103) with Eli as their quarterback. That is a lower winning percentage than his draft contemporaries Ben Roethlisberger (135-63) and Phillip Rivers (106-86).

Because the plan (if it can even be called that) hasn't changed, I don't expect the results to change. We'll be a middling team whose success or failure will be determined by a few lucky or unlucky breaks here and there. What I don't expect to be repeated is Eli miracling our asses to a title. I think those days are behind him.

This is a reactive, unimaginative organization.


This isn’t about “one more run with Eli.” DG has been pretty transparent regarding his philosophy to team building — run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer. Every move he’s made since stepping in as GM has been in line with that philosophy.

If you disagree that’s fine. But there’s nothing short sighted or reactive about his approach.
RE: Morning Drive yesterday.  
JOrthman : 5/8/2018 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13957918 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
Ross Tucker: If the Giants passed on a franchise QB for Barkley, it was shortsighted.

Papa: But if the Giants bring home another trophy in two to three years it was worth it.

Both have strong arguments. Papa’s has the lower chance of success IMO as I feel the odds are greater that Rosen or Darnold have a higher percentage chance of being franchise QBs than the Giants winning a Super Bowl in the next few years. Modern-day NFL wisdom says you go with the potential franchise QB.

Giants picked #2 in 1981 and got LT. I was a newly-minted teen when LT was drafted so I don’t remember what the pre-draft chatter was before the 1981 draft. Were people calling for a QB?

The only two QBs hat has any NFL success out of that draft were Neil Lomax and Wade Wilson, and only one was drafted in the first round at #6.

Sounds like the decision to go non-QB was pretty damn easy compared to this year. What I’m rambling on about is I find myself on both sides of the fence: wanted a QB but damn excited to see SB on the field. It just is what it is.

The bottom line is, the dust hasn’t settled and it won’t settle for a long time, if ever. This decision has the fodder that will last the players’ careers and becomes football lore that will be hotly debated for possibly decades.


To me there is a flaw in Ross's thinking. People seem to think the NFL is the NFL of the 80's before Free Agency. In the past you could draft a quarterback and build around them. That NFL is gone. You have to pick the best players now and not worry about 15 years from now. You have no idea what will happen year to year. We went from 11-5 to 3-13. You don't know when a player will retire, shoot off their hand or have a career threatening injury. You always have to get the best players now. It's not like we can take a QB now and we know for certain the rest of the team is going to stay the same and gradually improve each year. There are hundreds of variables in place so go with the best people now.
I have put this up on the board  
DonnieD89 : 5/8/2018 9:58 pm : link
last week. DG has all along pretty much said what he was looking for and what intended to do in the draft. He did not pull any punches or intended to be deceptive. Everything he said was basically what he wanted to do in the draft. He believed that Eli still had some juice in the tank. He stated he wanted to run the ball, stop the run and rush the passer. All reflective of this draft. He also said stay true to your board. He said don't get too cute with trading down when you have the #2 pick. He said if you are not in love with the QB, you can't force yourself to pick one. It seems still that some don't want to take him at face value.
RE: RE: Morning Drive yesterday.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/9/2018 2:05 am : link
In comment 13958478 JOrthman said:
Quote:


To me there is a flaw in Ross's thinking. People seem to think the NFL is the NFL of the 80's before Free Agency. In the past you could draft a quarterback and build around them. That NFL is gone. You have to pick the best players now and not worry about 15 years from now.


Teams still draft QBs and build around them. What do you mean by this? What team hasn't drafted a QB and then proceeded to build around them?
RE: RE: RE: Morning Drive yesterday.  
JOrthman : 5/9/2018 2:42 am : link
In comment 13958826 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13958478 JOrthman said:


Quote:




To me there is a flaw in Ross's thinking. People seem to think the NFL is the NFL of the 80's before Free Agency. In the past you could draft a quarterback and build around them. That NFL is gone. You have to pick the best players now and not worry about 15 years from now.



Teams still draft QBs and build around them. What do you mean by this? What team hasn't drafted a QB and then proceeded to build around them?


I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying in this draft everyone seemed to say you always draft a QB first regardless of how you value or rate those QB's. And they advocated we do that based on needing a QB a year or two from now. It would of been one thing if we traded or cut Eli before the draft but with Eli on the team it is a different story.
RE: Think Shurmur and DG think  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 5/9/2018 6:42 am : link
In comment 13957992 TMS said:
Quote:
the potential of someone with Barkley's size, speed and skill set, are very rare. A chance to put together an offense different than those out there now. Think he will be used big in the passing game and force teams to double him because of his 'take it to the house" ability anytime". Opening everybody else up. Should be fun to watch.


Everyone may be open, but if Eli can't get them the ball, it doesn't matter. And one more thing -- the word is "proud."
RE: That's your opinion, not necessarily based all on facts either  
UberAlias : 5/9/2018 6:53 am : link
In comment 13958052 JonC said:
Quote:
and while they have banked on Eli, they clearly picked their #1 prospect in the entire draft (fact) and are building around them (fact) trying to build the best team possible after the draft didn't deliver their franchise QB.

So be it.
This sums it up right here. If the loved a QB they would have taken him. They didn’t, so they took the highest player on their board.

Time will tell if they made the right choice.
.  
Bill2 : 5/9/2018 8:09 am : link
Not picking a qb is not the same as going for it in Eli's window.

Yes you try every year.

But the downside risk plan could be a 3 year cap aware transition while tacking year by year.

Makes sense at the end of every qb career.

Too many variables last year for them to tell what Eli can do in the short term. And his hit on the cap meant you were going to pay him. Adding more cap space to the qb position in 2018 while robbing all the other positions is not a winning formula.

Nor is it a time in the evolving NFL to ignore that 3 of the last qb standing did not take up a lot of cap. And the other was NE who compared to the performance from the GOAT does not drain the team just to pay the QB.

Its the total paid the qb position relative to likely performance in 2018 that is the relevant for it can drain the rest of the resources required in a team sport.

Im going to suggest that the going forward nfl is going to find that if you dont get brady or peyton then finding another way to win is essential. This last era saw a lot of teams think paying Peyton or Brady light was the only way. That can work...but it relys on luck and getting hot at the right time.

Probability ( analytics applied to the cap and not just the game) favors spreading a fixed cap for talent.

Notice the difference between spending 12m verus 25m on one player....its three to four good players with creative contracts. In a game decided by 8 plays a game...thats a lot of difference.

In sum, there are ways to win without a franchise qb cap drain. Is it preferable? No i suspect 2 to 3 qbs are worth more than 3 good players. The issue is being a final four if you dont have one of the top 2 qbs.

We dont right now and into the future so Barkley and a broader team was a hedge until one shows up.

Lastly i point out that Eli's strength is reading a defense. A defense one step back and eyes on 3 to 4 players feeds into the great strength of an aging mobility limited qb. Dont think of Barkley in a position comparison...think of him as an asymetrical add to the overall strengths that are there.

He may not even show the stats of his impact.

" Make sure its not Nicks or Cruz."

3 threats and a very crafty ( and sunk cost in 2018) qb like eli is why the oft right arguement about rb and qb is weaker in this specific case.

Imo
don' you have homes??????  
Victor in CT : 5/9/2018 8:15 am : link
:-)
Caddyshack - ( New Window )
This change is an iceberg, and Saquon Barkley is just the tippy tip  
glowrider : 5/9/2018 11:34 am : link
The Giants have been in crisis mode since deciding to go with Reese over Coughlin, quietly or otherwise, culminating with the historically awful 2017 campaign. They brought in Gettleman to reset the culture, clear out the clubhouse, and build the future of the Giants before he retires from a very successful career (hopefully with one or two more rings). Gettleman would say it was bashert he got tossed out of Carolina and his old home needed someone with pretty much his exact resume. Same thing happened with TC.

Further, while DG is emphasizing old school football princples and sound roster fundamentals (we finally have some middle class depth coming), we have a new non-rookie HC that has been on the bleeding edge of offensive football, has proven he can polish the biggest of turds into pro-bowlers and SB champions, and is humble through it all. Now, he has an arsenal he’s never had before (which will be needed to cover up warts on the defense).

In a league trending towards flag football, with major player safety concerns, special QB protective rules, and shit tons of fantasy $, more and more offense will be generated by more and more teams/QBs. In short I believe the requirement of having an elite QB is diminishing. This has already proven out as recently as this year with Nick Foles (second string) and Case Keenum (third string) being sufficient to get you to the dance, or even win it.

As for the pick, this team needs a leader in the clubhouse and a culture change just as much as a playmaker. There is a power vacuum that is being filled by OBJ and drama. Landon Collins seems to be a leader but also needs to figure out what to say and what not to say in public. As much as any other reason, Saquon is here to be The Franchise. He is expected to not only perform on the field but to be a leader off of it. Toxic clubhouses need airing out and he is sunlight and fresh air. The center of gravity shifts immediately.

It’s much easier to like the pick as Hernandez fell in our lap, as did Lauletta. I am confident that Saquon was not only the best player in the draft, but the best player for this team and our current and future needs. It is Coach’s job to do what he does, put points on the board, minimize errors, and breed QBs. McNabb, Foles, and Keenum sounds like the set up to a miserable joke, but he had his hands on all of them, and all led teams at least to the Championship game, if not the Super Bowl, and should be funding the Shurmur family college fund for what he did for them. He’s also a TE guru.

This draft, more than any other in recent memory, was about reshaping the culture and direction of the team. The values of our GM, the strengths and system of our new coach, the toxicity of the clubhouse, in addition to league wide trends need be considered when evaluating the pick. And that’s why I think Barkley was the easy choice. He brings far more to the table than his game, and the team needs that desperately. They drafted Saquon the man as much as Saquon the football player.

Phil Simms said it just the other day that there are a handful of coordinators around the league that do nothing but get their players paid the big bucks via their development, and Shurmur is one of those guys. If the Coach pans out, then this draft fits in very neatly with a coordinated plan going forward into the future beyond the Eli years.

Win today, win tomorrow, win everyday.
Phil Simms sound bite re Coach being a money maker for QBs - ( New Window )
Well said, glowrider.  
Klaatu : 5/9/2018 11:38 am : link
....
I think the selection  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/9/2018 11:45 am : link
has more to do with the fact that they fell in love with Barkley than anything else.

He was the highest rated player on their board, and DG is a no-nonsense sort.

We have analyzed the shit out of this, but I don't think it necessarily means that they will hitch their wagon to Eli beyond his current contract. I don't think they necessarily had huge reservations about the QBs (even if they didn't become enamored with any of them). They have a couple young guys and Eli, they will see how it shakes out over the next 2 seasons. Although I still suspect they won't throw more cash at Eli in 2 years when he is 39.

They fell in love with Barkley. I think it's that simple.
glowrider  
JonC : 5/9/2018 11:48 am : link
Great post and good to see you.
good post glowrider  
Victor in CT : 5/9/2018 11:56 am : link
all time great post if it can stop BBitB from trying to force whatever his point is on us.
Back to the Corner