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Can The Giants Offensive Line Come Together?

gidiefor : Mod : 5/19/2018 7:46 am
My recollections of a solid offensive line on the Giants are that - it doesn't have to be spectacular - but it does have to be cohesive.

in 2007 you had Kareem McKenzie (Key FA), Rich Suebert(UDFA), Shawn O'Hara(Key FA), Chris Snee(2nd Round), and Dave Diehl(5th Round)

in 2011 Will Beatty (2nd Round) went down and you had Dave Diehl (5th Round), Kevin Booth (Back up FA), David Baas (Key FA), Chris Snee (2nd Round) and Kareem McKenzie (Key FA)

The hallmark of those guys always seemed to be that they palled around as a group and genuinely liked and supported each other

When I look at the prospects for this years Offensive line I could see Nate Solder (Key FA), Will Hernandez (2nd Round), Brett Jones (UDFA), getting along --

but my worries are about the Right side - where a combo coming out of Eric Flowers (1rst Round), Patrick Omaneh (Key FA), Chad Wheeler (UDFA), John Jerry (FA), John Grecco (FA), Nick Gates (UDFA) and Nick Becton (UDFA) are going to have to arise

The most obvious candidate to man Right Tackle is going to be Eric Flowers, who last year on all accounts did his utmost to alienate himself from the rest of the Offensive line players along with Bobby Hart

I think that with the talent the Giants have assembled (Beckham, Engram, Barkley) and even with good bit players like Shep and Rhett, without the ability of the line to become cohesive like you saw in -- 2007 and 2011 -- the Giants will still not go very far -- which is pretty much the story of the past three years.

I really don't think Eli and his age are the problem. There are plenty of QBs in the NFL that are Eli's Age or older who are still performing at a high level (see Roethlisberger, Rivers from his draft class, and see also Brees and Brady). In my mind it's about having cohesion and confidence in front of him. In order to have that the Giants have to lose the Flowers of the past three years. That guy was pure poison to cohesion.
I would agree  
Chip : 5/19/2018 8:09 am : link
but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.
gidie, why do you feel that Flowers is bad for "cohesion" of  
Ira : 5/19/2018 8:13 am : link
the offensive line?
A serious question here...  
EricJ : 5/19/2018 8:18 am : link
was Reese that far off of the mark when it came to his OL selections. OR.. was our OL coach just a piece of shit?
Cohesiveness  
BlueinRoch : 5/19/2018 8:24 am : link
Skill of the players aside, injuries have killed any chance of building cohesiveness over the past few years. May the cream rise to the top and may they all remain healthy.
After watching  
joeinpa : 5/19/2018 8:34 am : link
The clip that Eric put out there of Joe Morris and his 85 touchdowns, I was reminded of how much I took for granted that offensive line and run game; the same could be said if the 08 season.

It would be astonishing to see this line play as well. My guess, there is an improvement. There should be fewer runners tackled behind the line, more conversions of 3rd or 4th and short and some semblance of a 4 min game.

I agree with Gidie s assessment of Eli, even though I was hoping they drafted Darnold as his successor.

I think the key now is keep pocket clean....  
George from PA : 5/19/2018 8:57 am : link
Eli could deal with speed rushers from the outside better.....if he has a clean pocket to stop into....this has not been the case.....not only did he have to deal with turnstiles for tackles....the interior OL collapses....giving Eli no ability to step clear of outside rush.

I hope Jones can hold....I feel better with Hernandez and Omearsh....so Jones can not allow to be pushed into Eli's lap.
RE: A serious question here...  
Pascal4554 : 5/19/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13968197 EricJ said:
Quote:
was Reese that far off of the mark when it came to his OL selections. OR.. was our OL coach just a piece of shit?


My understanding is that Flowers was a reach where we picked him, and not many teams thought he could play left tackle. I think we had a decent Oline coach under McAdoo.
RE: gidie, why do you feel that Flowers is bad for  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/19/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 13968194 Ira said:
Quote:
the offensive line?


There was a story last year about how Eric Flowers and Bobby Hart refused to participate in some off the field stuff with the rest of the Oline
RE: RE: A serious question here...  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/19/2018 9:28 am : link
In comment 13968216 Pascal4554 said:
Quote:

My understanding is that Flowers was a reach where we picked him, and not many teams thought he could play left tackle. I think we had a decent Oline coach under McAdoo.


This has nothing to do with a reach -- it has to do with the guy's attitude
RE: I would agree  
RetroJint : 5/19/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 13968193 Chip said:
Quote:
but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.

Pugh playing guard allowed Manning( a statue) to be touched the least amount of times during his starts at that position of any guard in the league . You are talking from thy asshole
Hunter is the most suspect  
RetroJint : 5/19/2018 9:36 am : link
offensive line coach the Giants have had since Peter Mangurian and his beloved soccer- ball drills . Hunter = Willie Loomis
How to fix the line. Easier said than done. Simple answer:  
Marty in Albany : 5/19/2018 9:59 am : link
Get it off the placards and towels and put it back in the players:


Its lack is as much a fault of the owners, the management and the coaching staff as it is of the players.

Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
Giants Pride
If Flowers attitude does a 180  
micky : 5/19/2018 10:10 am : link
and commits to Rt position, then the right side should be fine, manageable..not ideal but servicable.

if not, then it'll be a problem
RE: A serious question here...  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/19/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 13968197 EricJ said:
Quote:
was Reese that far off of the mark when it came to his OL selections. OR.. was our OL coach just a piece of shit?


Reese. His only good even slightly above a ereagd addition via the draft in 11 years was Pugh. How many OL coaches did they have in that time

And he he sucked in gettingthem in FA. Not sure if OL coach wasnít an issue to but Reese was a horrifically bad GM since he and his staff just couldnít ever build a whole cohesive roster. He did get some very good picks. But always in the area of WRs or DBs. His hits outside of that were way to few. Absolute shit after round 2 on the whole.

Then when he missed where he did pick lots of positions he went out and spent big straining the cap. But seriously. In 11 years if you and your staff can only grab one injury prone solid G?

The Reese fans are still here and now just laying low. I expect them to come out the second this yearís team stumbles once
I hope I am wrong and Flowers become a value-add player  
Jimmy Googs : 5/19/2018 10:17 am : link
but I don't think I will be.

Yes, the Giants are better if he succeeds. But imv, we may also be better if someone else does instead...
RE: A serious question here...  
BillT : 5/19/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13968197 EricJ said:
Quote:
was Reese that far off of the mark when it came to his OL selections. OR.. was our OL coach just a piece of shit?

If you go by the FA money Pugh and Richberg got youíd think he wasnít too far off. On the field though Pugh was just better than average and Richberg was worse than average. The miss on Flowers was huge. Also, remember over the past couple of years FA OL pickings were very slim as most here agreed. It was certainly a talent issue though with some injury issues mixed in.
It will when they sign vet RT  
averagejoe : 5/19/2018 11:09 am : link
Has to happen somehow. I'm sure DG is thinking the same thing. Will improve last weak spot and give Giants more OL options.
RE: It will when they sign vet RT  
Klaatu : 5/19/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 13968285 averagejoe said:
Quote:
Has to happen somehow. I'm sure DG is thinking the same thing. Will improve last weak spot and give Giants more OL options.


Name the veteran RT you want the Giants to sign, and then explain why he'd be better than anyone currently on the roster.
Itl certainly be interesting to see how technique  
idiotsavant : 5/19/2018 11:32 am : link
Or IF technique and scheme change things with regards to wheeler and flowers and the lower roster.

Imho flowers needs to learn to trust or improve his balance and power and not lean forward so fucking much. I mean, at what point was technique compounding his weaknesses?
Reese  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/19/2018 11:33 am : link
Seemed to pay 0 attention to character and intangibles. Accorsi (and presumably DG played a part) built the high character and good chemistry "Giants way" SB winning oline almost effortlessly and little cost.
RE: I would agree  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/19/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 13968193 Chip said:
Quote:
but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.


*sigh*

The problem wasn't that he "ignored" the OL. The problem was that they picked the wrong players at the wrong time. They reached for position; They overdrafted Pugh and Flowers both out of desperation. Richburg was a 2nd rounder, and didn't live up to his draft position. Pugh isn't a first round talent.

People keep saying that the OL was ignored, and I'm wondering what drafts they were watching.
RE: RE: RE: A serious question here...  
EricJ : 5/19/2018 11:39 am : link
In comment 13968224 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13968216 Pascal4554 said:


Quote:



My understanding is that Flowers was a reach where we picked him, and not many teams thought he could play left tackle. I think we had a decent Oline coach under McAdoo.



This has nothing to do with a reach -- it has to do with the guy's attitude


Gidie, this also is not just about Flowers. He was responding to my question about the OL in general. Whether Reese was just piss poor at evaluating OL talent OR whether the OL coach was not doing his job. Doesn't it seem a little odd that virtually all of the guys we brought in under performed?
RE: I think the key now is keep pocket clean....  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/19/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 13968213 George from PA said:
Quote:
Eli could deal with speed rushers from the outside better.....if he has a clean pocket to stop into....this has not been the case.....not only did he have to deal with turnstiles for tackles....the interior OL collapses....giving Eli no ability to step clear of outside rush.

I hope Jones can hold....I feel better with Hernandez and Omearsh....so Jones can not allow to be pushed into Eli's lap.

Interior pressure is Eli's Achille's heel. Justin Smith was the player I feared most, he clearly gave Eli fits even when our oline wasn't horrible. I really didn't worry about Ware, blow by Diehl for a couple of sacks and stop a drive or two, but that's about it.

Hernandez hopefully will help Eli as much as Barkley.
RE: RE: I would agree  
Klaatu : 5/19/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 13968299 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13968193 Chip said:


Quote:


but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.



*sigh*

The problem wasn't that he "ignored" the OL. The problem was that they picked the wrong players at the wrong time. They reached for position; They overdrafted Pugh and Flowers both out of desperation. Richburg was a 2nd rounder, and didn't live up to his draft position. Pugh isn't a first round talent.

People keep saying that the OL was ignored, and I'm wondering what drafts they were watching.


2010, 2011, 2012...nothing but Day 3 picks...which led to reaches in 2013, 2014, and 2015. 2016 and 2017 combined? Adam Bisnowaty.
Red  
idiotsavant : 5/19/2018 11:57 am : link
Deihl also had some damn good games vs ware. That's what I'm getting at w flowers.

It seemed like diehl just went right to ware and made a collision, shoulder, face, chest, whatever, as opposed to crouch and wait like some wanna be ninja.

Interesting to see- flowers if he progresses .....what techniques are employed.
RE: Red  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/19/2018 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13968313 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Deihl also had some damn good games vs ware. That's what I'm getting at w flowers.

It seemed like diehl just went right to ware and made a collision, shoulder, face, chest, whatever, as opposed to crouch and wait like some wanna be ninja.

Interesting to see- flowers if he progresses .....what techniques are employed.

Diehl did yeoman's work at LT, which is tremendous for a versatile 5th round guard, but he did have trouble with speedy edge rushers.
RE: RE: I would agree  
crick n NC : 5/19/2018 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13968225 RetroJint said:
Quote:
In comment 13968193 Chip said:


Quote:


but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.


Pugh playing guard allowed Manning( a statue) to be touched the least amount of times during his starts at that position of any guard in the league . You are talking from thy asshole


Manning was one of the fastest QBs getting the ball out. I guess you don't find that relevant
It's almost like they are instructing (red)  
idiotsavant : 5/19/2018 12:24 pm : link
The Tackles to move and then get ' set ' vs speed which seems crazy. I mean,there's no time for that? Correct? Just run at the player and hit!

Seems like ware had some speed and power.

And that when Deihl did well he just basically ran into him directly and maybe added a helmet smash. Then it's just forearms for grabbing, then the plays over.

Maybe not Textbook....but....
I believe the offensive line will come together and play well.  
Jerry "Championship" Reese : 5/19/2018 12:33 pm : link
Count me in the minority that thinks Ereck Flowers can emerge as a really solid RT. He only just turned 24 years old, afterall. Plus, he didn't allow a sack in what was it, his final 11 games or something like that? If Flowers plays well at RT I think the unit as a whole will be very solid. Wheeler could really surprise us too.
P.s. and this is not in defense of Reese,  
Jerry "Championship" Reese : 5/19/2018 12:35 pm : link
But our offensive line troubles were not because JR didn't try, he just failed miserably, to find offensive line talent (how many 1st and 2nd round picks used over the years?) Problem was, just about none of them turned into real solid players.
RE: RE: RE: A serious question here...  
Pascal4554 : 5/19/2018 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13968224 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13968216 Pascal4554 said:


Quote:



My understanding is that Flowers was a reach where we picked him, and not many teams thought he could play left tackle. I think we had a decent Oline coach under McAdoo.



This has nothing to do with a reach -- it has to do with the guy's attitude


gidiefor- its both at this point. Flowers was a reach where we drafted him to play left tackle. We can agree to disagree. Pretty sure SYí56 said he didnít think Flowers had what it takes to be a left tackle when he was drafted. Many teams didnít think he was left tackle material at the NFL level. Reese thought otherwise. Flowers has had issues with technique since we drafted him and it hasnít gotten better. I think Flowers has lost his confidence and doesnít handle criticism well. Let hope he can turn it around at right tackle. He might be our best option next year if his attitude improves.

Agree with the basic premise  
Jay in Toronto : 5/19/2018 12:39 pm : link
the OL is the classic the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Look at the Surbanites of years past as a perfect example.

The key is not to have a weak link.
Reese was terrible if not horrific  
Giants : 5/19/2018 12:43 pm : link
at build OL. His picks are filled with reaches and or a lack of talent at where they were picked.The biggest reason he is gone is 6 straight years of poor OL play.
sorry  
Giants : 5/19/2018 12:45 pm : link
building a OL
To gidiefor's OP...  
Klaatu : 5/19/2018 12:48 pm : link
Sure, the O-Line can come together. The question is how fast? When I asked this question in a recent thread, it wasn't a given where Hernandez and Omameh would be playing. Now it looks like the rookie will play LG and Omameh will play RG, which I believe is the right move. With Solder at LT and Jones at Center, four-fifths of the starters are in place. The only spot up for grabs is RT. Once that's settled (sooner rather than later, I hope), then they can begin to work on cohesion.
Everyone seems to be focused on pass protection...  
Klaatu : 5/19/2018 1:01 pm : link
And with good reason. However, DG made an early point about improving the running game, and he highlighted that point in the draft by picking Barkley and Hernandez. I think the battle for RT will come down to not simply the best pass-protector, but the most efficient run-blocker as well. The best way to keep Eli upright is to gain yards on the ground and avoid 3rd & long as much as possible.

I like the one-two punch that Barkley and Gallman bring at RB. I like having a FB and/or a TE helping to pave the way, too. Still, an efficient and successful running game starts up front, and I hope the steps the Giants are taking in that regard pay off. We'll see.
Yep  
idiotsavant : 5/19/2018 1:20 pm : link
Also. If front 7s are reading OL movements at snap, then the benefits you reap, from strong outside running , in terms of east-west, extend well beyond play action.

In other words; with strong outside runs one way, you don't even need play action to create hesitation on the part of defenders, just show that line action one way and roll the other, sealing the backside.

You start constantly playing with East/West and straight up the gut in terms of line play, you steal the initiative back from the D.
RE: Reese was terrible if not horrific  
EricJ : 5/19/2018 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13968337 Giants said:
Quote:
at build OL. His picks are filled with reaches and or a lack of talent at where they were picked.The biggest reason he is gone is 6 straight years of poor OL play.


...and in my opinion, Mara fucked up by not replacing Reese the day he fired Coughlin and by hiring McAdoo as the head coach Not sure WTF he was thinking. Everyone knew neither Reese nor McAdoo were the answers. All Mara did was kick the can down the road and here we are...
Similarly so many examples such as  
idiotsavant : 5/19/2018 1:51 pm : link
With pitch play runs. Since the QB need not be in in-touch distance to the RB, the more you run successful pitch run plays, the one way, the more you are able to take advantage of the hesitation when what looks like your standard pitch run turns out to be roll/pass the other way, ...without the need for fake hand off.

It's just - running well very generally helps your pass blocking, well beyond the strictly defined play action plays.
The 2011 line was very bad once Beatty went down  
Jay on the Island : 5/19/2018 6:33 pm : link
Eli doesn't get the respect he deserves but he might have been the best QB in the NFL during that season when you take into account the situation he was in. He had a breaking down Diehl at LT with two broken hands, Boothe struggling at LG, Baas ok at C, a broken down right side with Snee at RG, and McKenzie at RT. The Giants running game was last in the league and I believe the defense was rated 31st. That was Eli's best season and his pocket presence and mobility that season was remarkable.
I really believe that Wheeler is going to surprise  
Jay on the Island : 5/19/2018 6:39 pm : link
and develop into a solid starting OT. Flowers will have to show a new attitude and work ethic along with solid play to beat him out at RT because he won't be handed the job like Hart was last year. Wheeler has worked hard this offseason to add size and strength to his frame.

The ideal scenario would be for Flowers to play well at RT with Wheeler serving as the swing tackle and then taking over in a year when Flowers leaves via FA. Let's hope that Gettleman finds another Norwell or Remmers out of Gates, Brown, Cooper, Bunche, and Howell. I am excited to see how Brown does versus the veterans after the solid reports from rookie minicamp. The backup center job is wide open.
RE: RE: I would agree  
xtian : 5/21/2018 11:17 pm : link
In comment 13968299 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13968193 Chip said:


Quote:


but it wasn't just flowers. The interior line didn't hold up either which include Richburg and Pugh who were always being pushed back into the pocket. If the Oline can come together this team will be good if not the Oline will become a 2 year project. At least DG recognized the problem which Reese would ignore.



*sigh*

The problem wasn't that he "ignored" the OL. The problem was that they picked the wrong players at the wrong time. They reached for position; They overdrafted Pugh and Flowers both out of desperation. Richburg was a 2nd rounder, and didn't live up to his draft position. Pugh isn't a first round talent.

People keep saying that the OL was ignored, and I'm wondering what drafts they were watching.


Exactly! Overall, Reese put more high draft picks into the OLine than anyone since George Young did in 88 with #1 OT Eric Moore and #2 OT Jumbo Elliott and 89 with #1 C Brian Williams and #3 G Bob Kratch.
Is it possible..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/22/2018 8:31 am : link
that this Eric Flowers being mentioned might actually be better than Ereck Flowers?
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