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Here's how I would handle the NFL's new anthem policy...

Milton : 5/25/2018 4:13 pm
If I were Mara and/or Shurmur. On the morning of a game I would put the names of the 46 players to be active that day into a hat and have one of the team captains pick from it. Whatever name is picked, that player gets to decide whether or not the team will remain in the locker room for the anthem or will stand at attention for it on the sideline.

This accomplishes three things:
1) First and foremost being that whatever it is they do, they do as a team.
2) The decision is made by a player (not someone from ownership or management).
3) The choice of player is random (and all inclusive of those who would be standing or sitting that day), so fairness in representation is assured. And given that it is a 16 game season, the sample set should be large enough that all demographic/socio-economic viewpoints are given a say).
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RE: So where does it stop  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/27/2018 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13976377 giant24 said:
Quote:
All you in favor of kneeling during the anthem to protest your cause would you be ok with a player kneeling to protest illegal immigrants or kneeling to protest abortions or transgender bathroom rights? Would you say the same thing that iits their right and they shouldn’t be criticized or boycotted?

No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.

Yes. All of it. Because the cause is separate. Making anyone stand for the anthem as a mandatory act removes every shred of patriotism from the anthem itself. That's the point. Standing for the anthem needs to be something that we do by choice. That's how freedom works, and that's what the anthem is about.
giants24  
Sonic Youth : 5/27/2018 6:46 pm : link
showing himself, once again, to be a psychopathic authoritarian headcase.

scary that people like him exist.
also LoL at linking the fucking DAILY CALLER  
Sonic Youth : 5/27/2018 6:47 pm : link
that's a good one
RE: Real simple  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2018 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13976623 XBRONX said:
Quote:
if you don't like the kneeling don't watch the game.


That’s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....
What’s really funny to me about all of this is that  
Cam in MO : 5/27/2018 8:00 pm : link
the only game during the season that I ever even notice the anthem being played is the Super bowl.

I do t recall the anthem being broadcast for early games, if it is, I don’t tune in early enough to watch. I definitely don’t see it for late games because I’m always watching the tail end of an early game. Prime time games I miss it because again- I don’t tune in, that is if they even broadcast it at all.

Either way, I don’t actually give a flying fuck if they kneel, stand, or grab their crotches and slap each other on the ass while the anthem is being played. This is America, land of the free- which means you do your thing and I’ll do mine and it’s all good as long as we aren’t hurting one another. If you want to argue that someone kneeling during the anthem “hurts” your enjoyment of the game because you’re offended, maybe you should learn to control your emotions a bit better because in order to enjoy the benifits of freedom (both speech and more importantly thought-they’re closely related) you’re gonna hear a shit ton of offensive stuff.

As to what they’re protesting- I personally think they’re doing more harm than good. There’s an issue of accountability that isn’t as closely related to black and white as many folks like to think, regardless of many of the correlations. The solution (or at least getting headed down the right path) is counterintuitive to those that aren’t looking at all of the data and are drawing incorrect conclusions from 5min news snippets.
RE: RE: Real simple  
christian : 5/27/2018 8:22 pm : link
In comment 13976710 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13976623 XBRONX said:


Quote:


if you don't like the kneeling don't watch the game.



That’s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....


If the NFL pushes too hard and alienates young, black men, they are going to have a much bigger issue than a few percentage points of folks tuning out.

Really think about this surfacely -- the NFL is going to fine black men for either not standing there like they are told or not be seen.

This league is one prominent player away from kneeling and getting fined from an all out revolt.

If the owners can't see this their heads are further up their back account than we all thought.
I think you are seriously underestimating  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2018 8:40 pm : link
the Bible Belt and people who already were fed up with the NFL and now another reason to force them away.

I don’t disagree with just letting it happen, I think they should. But the revenue slow down is real, so who knows what they will do.
RE: RE: RE: Real simple  
madgiantscow009 : 5/27/2018 8:44 pm : link
In comment 13976737 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 13976710 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13976623 XBRONX said:


Quote:


if you don't like the kneeling don't watch the game.



That�s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....



If the NFL pushes too hard and alienates young, black men, they are going to have a much bigger issue than a few percentage points of folks tuning out.

Really think about this surfacely -- the NFL is going to fine black men for either not standing there like they are told or not be seen.

This league is one prominent player away from kneeling and getting fined from an all out revolt.

If the owners can't see this their heads are further up their back account than we all thought.


There really is no good solution to this and there was never meant to be. Welcome to the world of identity politics.
RE: RE: It still amazes me that  
Cam in MO : 5/27/2018 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13976136 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.



It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.

I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.


Not only stop watching, but I think you will see an explosion of protesting/outrage should a player (especially a star player) get fined/suspended for kneeling should the NFL decide to outlaw it.

The NFL is the perfect target. Billionaires and millionaire? Check. Male dominated industry? Check. Workforce/product (value added) comprised mainly of minorities (predominantly from the low end of the economic spectrum)? Check. One could argue that the NFL is a perfect microcosm of the 1%, capitalism, racism, and the patriarchy yet again working to keep all but the privileged down.



Again, typical thread but it really fails to acknowledge  
pjcas18 : 5/27/2018 9:08 pm : link
the public is split on this issue.

Most of you on this thread once again are working really hard to say why you're ok with kneeling, or trying to support the cause that started the kneeling to begin with but not many of you are trying to understand why people find it offensive." It does seem like veterans or veterans groups are sort of being used.

Many veterans actually support the right to kneel, a lot don't, and sometimes people say "if you didn't serve you don't have the right to say what is or isn't disrespectful to veterans."

Some people simply dismiss the people who are offended by it as racism (ridiculous, but typical - I especially found it interesting how a poster could use the fact there are people on rosters who get charged with domestic violence and allegedly fans are ok with that, but not kneeling - this a) is a straw man since these very same people (and most people) very possibly don't want players on their team convicted of DV, but also ignores the fact since NFL arrests have been recorded 95% of the players charged with DV have been black - same poster lied about Tebow kneeling during the Anthem in another attempt to make it racial), others just say 'Merica and it's got to be uneducated red necks who have a problem with it, and others just don't bother to try.

For the record, I do believe the cause is real, and I'm sensitive to it, but I also believe it is exacerbated because the media fans the flames since racism sells. My personal stance is I'd prefer players don't kneel, but I wouldn't stop watching because of the kneeling, I think there are probably better ways they could help the cause. And I definitely don't think they have a right to free speech on the sidelines of an NFL game. Can they burn a flag on the sidelines?

Anyway, I found an informal, unofficial link on random web forum that had some good quotes about the topic (I believe the author was not American, but answering "why do people in America have an issue with kneeling):

Quote:

The answer to "what is wrong with kneeling" is symbolism. And more specifically, the question shouldn't be "what is wrong with kneeling" but instead "why do many people see it as wrong"; since there's no objective metrics of what's right or wrong, and the answer may very largely depend on one's ideological postulates.

So, let's answer that second question - why do many people consider it wrong.

First off, I'd like to clarify something which seems to confuse the question poster. It's not the "kneeling" as a physical act itself that is perceived as being wrong.

It's more of "doing anything that is protesting the anthem".

Kneeling is merely a stand-in for "something OTHER than standard etiquette of standing with hand on heart" - and yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of "land of the free" imposing a unified unyielding standard of expressing patriotism.

As such, such a normally-respectful gesture as kneeling (which originated in feudal knights showing respect to their liege), becomes an insult - wholly because of intent, not the form.

(It's also worth noting that at this point some players decided to protest in far less respectful ways, including stretching for the game during the anthem, or deliberately not showing up on the field).

Now, as to why it's perceived as insult:

It's generally[1] considered that showing respect to one's country's national symbols (specifically, flag and anthem) is a show of respect for the country in general, as well as to people in the armed forces who risk their lives to protect the country. And conversely, it's seen that showing disrespect to a country's symbols is disrespecting the country (and, by extension, its citizens). At its root, this is why so many people (~50%) are utterly opposed to, for example, flag burning, despite the fact that there's a clear First Amendment point that flag burning is perfectly fine, being a form of political expression.


[1] - Before people start spouting about "evil capitalism" and "white pride" and "evil Amerikkka" (because Trump is somehow involved), it's worth noting that the concept is NOT uniquely American, and exists in, for example, India, Mexico, and Jamaica, (random Google picks) in pretty much the same form. It also existed in former USSR and probably in the modern Russian federation. I'd be surprised if it does not exist in some form in most countries.

As such, regardless for what motivated the NFL protests, a lot of people in US see taking the knee during the anthem as an explicit deliberate insult to the country. Some people consider that "wrong", regardless of what the protest is about.
To quantify "a lot", let's look at the polls from 2016 (no 2017 numbers aside from one unscientific small poll that I could find):

In one poll, which was conducted by Reuters, 72 percent of Americans said that they thought Kaepernick's behavior was unpatriotic. Another 61 percent said that they do not "support the stance Colin Kaepernick is taking and his decision not to stand during the national anthem."

all American adults disapprove 54 - 38 percent of athletes refusing to stand during the National Anthem in protest of perceived police violence against the black community, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

An extra special dose of insult comes from the fact that many people associate American Football with patriotism and the country, symbolically. I suspect the emotional effect would have been far less if it all happened at a real (Soccer) Football game.

Interestingly, there does seem to be some actual blowback to the NFL because of this as per polling:

“Are football fans voting with their TVs?” asks a new Rasmussen Reports survey. “As the NFL struggles to explain this season’s downturn in viewer ratings, 34 percent of American adults say they are less likely to watch an NFL game because of the growing number of protests by players on the field,” the poll reports, noting that 12 percent say they are more likely to watch, while half say the protests have no effect on their viewing decisions.

P.S. As an additional, secondary issue, some people take umbrage at the idea that NFL players—whose multi-million dollar salaries are enabled both by the institutions of the USA and by millions of fans who are offended by the kneeling—are protesting "injustices". It's a lot easier to accept the protest from random Joe Schmoe rather than a multi-millionaire success story, regardless of what the protest is about (this is similar to how people earning $40K react to "sexism affects unequal salaries in Hollywood" protests from actresses being paid millions of dollars—it doesn't matter if they actually are paid less than male actors, or what the reasons are, it still seems utterly hypocritical to many average persons.


Some other interesting quotes from other articles.


I found one veteran, a woman from Tennessee that had a interesting POV:

Quote:
Having a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do," she said. "There are many ways to protest, but the national anthem should be our moment to stand together as one United States of America.”


Another:
Quote:
Jarrin Jackson, a former Army officer and Ranger who deployed with the 101st Airborne Division and now lives in Oklahoma, said, "It doesn't bother (me) how people use their freedom."

But, he said, "People who kneel during the anthem (whether they know it or not) push an anti-America message."

And for him, "that ain't cool."

"What gets me is that people don't use their freedom responsibly. Kneeling during the anthem does attack a powerful symbol (the flag) and that'll predictably upset lots of people," he said.

"I want peace, which means people shouldn't be stupid. They can be stupid, but they shouldn't be."


In the end I think the problem the kneeling has caused is it's created a divide with people who probably support the cause to be opposed to the protest.

And I don't think that's helpful.

RE: Again, typical thread but it really fails to acknowledge  
Cam in MO : 5/27/2018 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13976754 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
the public is split on this issue.

Most of you on this thread once again are working really hard to say why you're ok with kneeling, or trying to support the cause that started the kneeling to begin with but not many of you are trying to understand why people find it offensive." It does seem like veterans or veterans groups are sort of being used.

Many veterans actually support the right to kneel, a lot don't, and sometimes people say "if you didn't serve you don't have the right to say what is or isn't disrespectful to veterans."

Some people simply dismiss the people who are offended by it as racism (ridiculous, but typical - I especially found it interesting how a poster could use the fact there are people on rosters who get charged with domestic violence and allegedly fans are ok with that, but not kneeling - this a) is a straw man since these very same people (and most people) very possibly don't want players on their team convicted of DV, but also ignores the fact since NFL arrests have been recorded 95% of the players charged with DV have been black - same poster lied about Tebow kneeling during the Anthem in another attempt to make it racial), others just say 'Merica and it's got to be uneducated red necks who have a problem with it, and others just don't bother to try.

For the record, I do believe the cause is real, and I'm sensitive to it, but I also believe it is exacerbated because the media fans the flames since racism sells. My personal stance is I'd prefer players don't kneel, but I wouldn't stop watching because of the kneeling, I think there are probably better ways they could help the cause. And I definitely don't think they have a right to free speech on the sidelines of an NFL game. Can they burn a flag on the sidelines?

Anyway, I found an informal, unofficial link on random web forum that had some good quotes about the topic (I believe the author was not American, but answering "why do people in America have an issue with kneeling):



Quote:



The answer to "what is wrong with kneeling" is symbolism. And more specifically, the question shouldn't be "what is wrong with kneeling" but instead "why do many people see it as wrong"; since there's no objective metrics of what's right or wrong, and the answer may very largely depend on one's ideological postulates.

So, let's answer that second question - why do many people consider it wrong.

First off, I'd like to clarify something which seems to confuse the question poster. It's not the "kneeling" as a physical act itself that is perceived as being wrong.

It's more of "doing anything that is protesting the anthem".

Kneeling is merely a stand-in for "something OTHER than standard etiquette of standing with hand on heart" - and yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of "land of the free" imposing a unified unyielding standard of expressing patriotism.

As such, such a normally-respectful gesture as kneeling (which originated in feudal knights showing respect to their liege), becomes an insult - wholly because of intent, not the form.

(It's also worth noting that at this point some players decided to protest in far less respectful ways, including stretching for the game during the anthem, or deliberately not showing up on the field).

Now, as to why it's perceived as insult:

It's generally[1] considered that showing respect to one's country's national symbols (specifically, flag and anthem) is a show of respect for the country in general, as well as to people in the armed forces who risk their lives to protect the country. And conversely, it's seen that showing disrespect to a country's symbols is disrespecting the country (and, by extension, its citizens). At its root, this is why so many people (~50%) are utterly opposed to, for example, flag burning, despite the fact that there's a clear First Amendment point that flag burning is perfectly fine, being a form of political expression.

[1] - Before people start spouting about "evil capitalism" and "white pride" and "evil Amerikkka" (because Trump is somehow involved), it's worth noting that the concept is NOT uniquely American, and exists in, for example, India, Mexico, and Jamaica, (random Google picks) in pretty much the same form. It also existed in former USSR and probably in the modern Russian federation. I'd be surprised if it does not exist in some form in most countries.

As such, regardless for what motivated the NFL protests, a lot of people in US see taking the knee during the anthem as an explicit deliberate insult to the country. Some people consider that "wrong", regardless of what the protest is about.
To quantify "a lot", let's look at the polls from 2016 (no 2017 numbers aside from one unscientific small poll that I could find):

In one poll, which was conducted by Reuters, 72 percent of Americans said that they thought Kaepernick's behavior was unpatriotic. Another 61 percent said that they do not "support the stance Colin Kaepernick is taking and his decision not to stand during the national anthem."

all American adults disapprove 54 - 38 percent of athletes refusing to stand during the National Anthem in protest of perceived police violence against the black community, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

An extra special dose of insult comes from the fact that many people associate American Football with patriotism and the country, symbolically. I suspect the emotional effect would have been far less if it all happened at a real (Soccer) Football game.

Interestingly, there does seem to be some actual blowback to the NFL because of this as per polling:

“Are football fans voting with their TVs?” asks a new Rasmussen Reports survey. “As the NFL struggles to explain this season’s downturn in viewer ratings, 34 percent of American adults say they are less likely to watch an NFL game because of the growing number of protests by players on the field,” the poll reports, noting that 12 percent say they are more likely to watch, while half say the protests have no effect on their viewing decisions.

P.S. As an additional, secondary issue, some people take umbrage at the idea that NFL players—whose multi-million dollar salaries are enabled both by the institutions of the USA and by millions of fans who are offended by the kneeling—are protesting "injustices". It's a lot easier to accept the protest from random Joe Schmoe rather than a multi-millionaire success story, regardless of what the protest is about (this is similar to how people earning $40K react to "sexism affects unequal salaries in Hollywood" protests from actresses being paid millions of dollars—it doesn't matter if they actually are paid less than male actors, or what the reasons are, it still seems utterly hypocritical to many average persons.




Some other interesting quotes from other articles.


I found one veteran, a woman from Tennessee that had a interesting POV:



Quote:


Having a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do," she said. "There are many ways to protest, but the national anthem should be our moment to stand together as one United States of America.”



Another:


Quote:


Jarrin Jackson, a former Army officer and Ranger who deployed with the 101st Airborne Division and now lives in Oklahoma, said, "It doesn't bother (me) how people use their freedom."

But, he said, "People who kneel during the anthem (whether they know it or not) push an anti-America message."

And for him, "that ain't cool."

"What gets me is that people don't use their freedom responsibly. Kneeling during the anthem does attack a powerful symbol (the flag) and that'll predictably upset lots of people," he said.

"I want peace, which means people shouldn't be stupid. They can be stupid, but they shouldn't be."



In the end I think the problem the kneeling has caused is it's created a divide with people who probably support the cause to be opposed to the protest.

And I don't think that's helpful.



I enjoyed reading this post and it added insight into why folks get so bent out of shape about the kneeling that I hadn’t considered. Thanks.
Dammit. Shouldn’t have used the quote feature.  
Cam in MO : 5/27/2018 9:23 pm : link
...
"Just because you have the right to do something  
BlackLight : 5/27/2018 10:44 pm : link
doesn't mean you should" is precisely the argument being used against the NFL when they exercise their legal right to dictate anthem conduct policy to players.




RE:  
pjcas18 : 5/27/2018 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13976795 BlackLight said:
Quote:
doesn't mean you should" is precisely the argument being used against the NFL when they exercise their legal right to dictate anthem conduct policy to players.





Probably true. How does it work for the NBA?

It's a more complex issue than some people want to admit.
RE: RE:  
BlackLight : 5/27/2018 11:00 pm : link
In comment 13976797 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13976795 BlackLight said:


Quote:


doesn't mean you should" is precisely the argument being used against the NFL when they exercise their legal right to dictate anthem conduct policy to players.







Probably true. How does it work for the NBA?

It's a more complex issue than some people want to admit.


ESPN had an interesting article a few days ago addressing this very question - why the NBA, with its more restrictive, pre-existing anthem policy, doesn't have the same problem with player protests. It appears to have little to do with the policy itself.




Link - ( New Window )
RE:  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 12:12 am : link
In comment 13976795 BlackLight said:
Quote:
doesn't mean you should" is precisely the argument being used against the NFL when they exercise their legal right to dictate anthem conduct policy to players.




They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.
RE: RE:  
BlackLight : 5/28/2018 1:04 am : link
In comment 13976884 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:



They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.


Okay, so how far are they legally allowed to go?
RE: RE: RE:  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 7:33 am : link
In comment 13976894 BlackLight said:
Quote:
In comment 13976884 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:





They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.



Okay, so how far are they legally allowed to go?

Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.

That's not even going to the constitutional challenge regarding whether any employer has a right to force any employee to observe the flag ceremony in a particular way when it wasn't an initial term of their employment or in any way related to their job.
...  
christian : 5/28/2018 9:09 am : link
That ESPN article totally nails it.

The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:

Quote:
I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.


The NBA just gets it.
RE: ...  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/28/2018 9:19 am : link
In comment 13976936 christian said:
Quote:
That ESPN article totally nails it.

The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:



Quote:


I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.



The NBA just gets it.

The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!

Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 9:57 am : link
In comment 13976942 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 13976936 christian said:


Quote:


That ESPN article totally nails it.

The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:



Quote:


I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.



The NBA just gets it.


The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!

Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.

You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.
Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
giant24 : 5/28/2018 10:16 am : link
Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong.
Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/28/2018 11:12 am : link
In comment 13976962 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13976942 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


In comment 13976936 christian said:


Quote:


That ESPN article totally nails it.

The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:



Quote:


I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.



The NBA just gets it.


The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!

Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.


You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.

Better than being a mindless tool who constantly falls for obvious fake news and narratives.
RE: RE: RE: RE:  
bw in dc : 5/28/2018 11:49 am : link
In comment 13976918 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.



Really? The NFL competition committee establishes the most current rules of the game - catch rules, how players need to wear their uniforms, medical protocol, technology, roster rules, etc, etc. None of those are bargained with the union.

Why is this different?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE:  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13977013 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13976918 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.





Really? The NFL competition committee establishes the most current rules of the game - catch rules, how players need to wear their uniforms, medical protocol, technology, roster rules, etc, etc. None of those are bargained with the union.

Why is this different?

The very existence of the competition committee was collectively bargained.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13976994 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 13976962 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13976942 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


In comment 13976936 christian said:


Quote:


That ESPN article totally nails it.

The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:



Quote:


I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.



The NBA just gets it.


The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!

Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.


You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.


Better than being a mindless tool who constantly falls for obvious fake news and narratives.

So you admit that you're a troll and a dupe?

And I agree, one of us is mindless.
RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
Quote:
Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )

What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.
RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
eclipz928 : 5/28/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13977044 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )


What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.

I disagree. It's good to have posters who are willing to put their ignorance out there on full display - that way you know where they stand and know not to waste time responding to them.
RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Ryan in Albany : 5/28/2018 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
Quote:
Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )


It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
giant24 : 5/28/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:
Quote:
In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.


yeah its not anti police



RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
giant24 : 5/28/2018 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13977044 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )


What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.


It directly relates to the reason the kneelers are kneeling. They state that the police target black males for no reason and that its racial. Meanwhile every statistic shows that black males commit a hugely disproportionate amount of violent crimes including murdering police. Secondly it goes to the fact that the media does not report on these statistics cause and effect and downplay or don't report at all the other side of the story like this. How is this not a national story and an outrage!!
RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Ryan in Albany : 5/28/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13977095 giant24 said:
Quote:
In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police





"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
RE: RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
giant24 : 5/28/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:
Quote:
In comment 13977095 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police







"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK


He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular
RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/28/2018 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13977095 giant24 said:
Quote:
In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police




Action > Narrative
RE: I’m not giving the NFL credit for anything  
BMac : 5/28/2018 4:26 pm : link
In comment 13975605 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I can’t stand the NFL, they are run by people I loathe. But they need to eliminate the issue in order for business to get back to where they want it and skirting around the issue isn’t going to help them achieve that.

Having the players stay in the locker, 15 yard penalties, letting 1 player decide what the team does that week....it’s all garbage. The NFL needs to put the issue to bed and the only way that can be done is fully supporting the protests or banning them. It may sting at first but it would eventually go away.

Getting rid of the anthem would be an absolute joke mainly because the players will just find something else to protest.


Guess I've been out of the loop...it's nether the flag nor the anthem that are the target of the protests. Protesting during the anthem is simply an effective way to call attention to the protest.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13977124 giant24 said:
Quote:
In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13977095 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police







"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK



He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular

Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?
RE: RE: RE: I don't understand a lot of this discussion.  
BMac : 5/28/2018 5:12 pm : link
In comment 13975838 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13975800 madgiantscow009 said:


Quote:


In comment 13975798 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


The kneeling protest is against police brutality. I don't understand the argument: "Hey rich athlete, stop kneeling against police brutality, that doesn't cost you anything. Go help build your community."

First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.

Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.

And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.



it's a political discussion on a non political site.

a lot of it does hinge on fake news and identity politics. If this was to be a successful protest it would have to be removed from BLM. Also,the mainstream media is not willing to present these things in an intelligent way.



Everything in the world is connected to politics in some way. If you want to avoid politics you should probably move to the North Pole.


And get et by a starving polart bear.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
giant24 : 5/28/2018 8:58 pm : link
In comment 13977166 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13977124 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13977095 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police







"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK



He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular


Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?


Banned for pointing out verifiable truths about what a radical CK is - ok then. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Black male runs over white female officer killing her after  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/28/2018 10:33 pm : link
In comment 13977300 giant24 said:
Quote:
In comment 13977166 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13977124 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13977095 giant24 said:


Quote:


In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:


Quote:


In comment 13976968 giant24 said:


Quote:


Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )



It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.



yeah its not anti police







"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK



He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular


Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?



Banned for pointing out verifiable truths about what a radical CK is - ok then. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable

Nothing about your idiocy makes me uncomfortable. Disappointed? Maybe. Sad? Yes. Uncomfortable? Not a chance.
Sums it up  
Thegratefulhead : 5/29/2018 9:12 am : link
I stand to honor the promise the flag represents.
You kneel because that promise has been broken.
I stand to affirm my belief that all are created equal, and to fight alongside you for that promise.
You kneel because too few stand with you.
I stand because we can be better.
You kneel to remind us to be better.
I stand to honor all that have fought and died so that we may be free.
You kneel because not all of us are.
I stand because I can.
You kneel for those who can't.
I stand to defend your right to kneel.
You kneel to defend my right to stand.
I stand because I love this country.
You kneel because you love it too.
written by: Andrew Freborg
It was on memorial day  
idiotsavant : 5/29/2018 4:07 pm : link
They showed a WW1 history piece.

Shortly after the war Gold Star Mothers were sent via Ocean Liner to visit the graves of their sons (and see France etc).

For some reason the mothers were segregated whereas the sons were all buried together.

(My grandfather was in the medical corps,tie in for me).

In any case. Every one of the African American Gold Star Mothers waved the flag in the picture they showed. The. Flag.
RE: It was on memorial day  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/29/2018 4:22 pm : link
In comment 13978073 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
They showed a WW1 history piece.

Shortly after the war Gold Star Mothers were sent via Ocean Liner to visit the graves of their sons (and see France etc).

For some reason the mothers were segregated whereas the sons were all buried together.

(My grandfather was in the medical corps,tie in for me).

In any case. Every one of the African American Gold Star Mothers waved the flag in the picture they showed. The. Flag.


It's almost as if Black people can love the flag and love the country. Gasp!
Not sure exactly where that snark is headed  
idiotsavant : 5/29/2018 5:13 pm : link
But OK. Snarck is always helpful? I guess.
But maybe only helpful.in that  
idiotsavant : 5/29/2018 5:31 pm : link
For example, it sort of points back to the Munc (Munk?) Debate on political correctness, on CSPAN and probably also now available online (the one with Steven Fry from comedy troup Fry and Laurie and 3 others) how quickly and pervasively the "for PC" side resorted to breathtakingly lowball rhetorical tactics and how patiently the "against PC" side tried to bring it back to the agreed upon specific debate at hand, refraining from implied or direct accusations.
So this  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/29/2018 5:54 pm : link
Quote:
In any case. Every one of the African American Gold Star Mothers waved the flag in the picture they showed. The. Flag.


is just you patiently and without implication bringing the conversation back to the debate at hand?
I retract my statement idiotsavant  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/29/2018 6:21 pm : link
insofar as that it is possible I inferred the opposite of the point you tried to convey.
Bingo  
idiotsavant : 5/29/2018 7:43 pm : link
Mainly contrasting the dignity of that generation (regardless of apparently designated identifiers such as shade or tone of epidermis), with the clownish nature (from many and very diverse quarters in all fairness) of our dialog broadly and currently.

And, obviously those mothers had a double struggle, that war being far, far worse, than this one, those days far far far harder in terms of identity, than now, and yet they still stood by the flag like rocks.

So, by definition, what they had been through far beyond the scope of what you alluded to

and far beyond what either of us has probably dealt with, and thank God for that. Because if we think we have reasons....please. Not compared to them we didn't.

So, no, it's definitely not a simple

'duh, of course they did'

moment. Really? Have you lost a child in war?

Imagine the conflicting emotions for any parent!

No. You missed this entirely. It's not just flags...it's the context, a context that dwarfs anything we have direct reference to. WW1.

Seriously not that easy. You cannot just say,

" duh. Of course they did, nothing to see here, easy obvious thing that's normal'

It wasn't. It was a:

"for any parent as hard as fuck moment and -add in- what they may have had to deal with just to live in USA circa 1918" , moment.

And I think all that context is fairly obvious not needing to have been spelled out in the first instance.

It's just too easy to read from that snark script, and people aren't taking it.

Look at Steven Fry. He's far from a conservative and far from 'normative' or establishment type. But his dignity in that debate made Dawkins look like a wet swamp rat chewing on a dead baby's oatmeal.
nope, my first instinct was correct  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/29/2018 10:04 pm : link
and I reinstate my original post.

Also, a quick word of advice: re-read your comments before you post them.

Quote:
"And I think all that context is fairly obvious not needing to have been spelled out in the first instance."


That statement of yours couldn't be further from the truth. It's clear that you are well-read and well-versed in world events, but time and time again, your posts are incomprehensible. I"m not sure if this is an intentional troll job to screw with posters or how you express your thoughts, but what you are hearing in your head is not what is coming out in print.
Or your reading comprehension  
idiotsavant : 5/30/2018 9:30 am : link
Is miles below what you think it is. The letters WW1 encompass all of that context.
I am  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/30/2018 12:03 pm : link
comfortable with my level of reading comprehension, though I'm clearly not at the level of a master code-breaker which is often required to understand your posts. As well-versed as you might be, your posts read like the screed of a polymath who dropped one too many tabs of LSD back in the day.
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