If I were Mara and/or Shurmur. On the morning of a game I would put the names of the 46 players to be active that day into a hat and have one of the team captains pick from it. Whatever name is picked, that player gets to decide whether or not the team will remain in the locker room for the anthem or will stand at attention for it on the sideline.
This accomplishes three things:
1) First and foremost being that whatever it is they do, they do as a team.
2) The decision is made by a player (not someone from ownership or management).
3) The choice of player is random (and all inclusive of those who would be standing or sitting that day), so fairness in representation is assured. And given that it is a 16 game season, the sample set should be large enough that all demographic/socio-economic viewpoints are given a say).
I don't think the players would want to get rid of the anthem or stay in the locker room. They want the opportunity to protest.
Also, if a player has to pick, that could go pretty poorly and divide the locker room.
A small contingent of team administration comprised would represent the team during tje anthem and that would be the consistent policy week in and out.
Essentially putting everyone out of the line of fire on this but myself as owner, and the only one setting policy
A small contingent of team administration comprised would represent the team during tje anthem and that would be the consistent policy week in and out.
Essentially putting everyone out of the line of fire on this but myself as owner, and the only one setting policy
probably the best option, but the players would probably still be upset. There isn't going to be an option to make everyone happy.
If I played in the NFL last season, I would have likely stood for the anthem. If I played this season, I would probably kneel - in protest of the abhorrent idea that I must be made to stand, which is far more unamerican.
Horrible idea, IMO. The owner/s need to grow a pair and let it happen or remove it completely with fines/suspensions.
AMEN
The point is that people do disagree and are tuning out, costing the owners/NFL money. It’s a business decision.
There are other ways to protest that does not offend the veterans and flag (and reduce NFL revenues). Just pick one, its not that difficult.
Correct. They guaranteed the media coverage of the protests will last another season, pissing off all the same people, all over again. They won't care what the NFL's stated policy. All they'll care about is that some players are still refusing to toe the mark. And the revenues will continue to fall.
Seems to me they got what they want and are purposely being stubborn while continuing to divide the country and risk the success of the company they work for.
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From just an intellectual, philosophical perspective on the basics of our country, constitution, and history, I find it perplexing it's offensive to some that others feel differently than them and express themselves.
The point is that people do disagree and are tuning out, costing the owners/NFL money. It’s a business decision.
I didn't believe it, but the financials do show it's impacting their business.
I am not surprised in the least business people are trying to make profit-focused decisions. I'm surprised Americans support a business forcing their employees to either stand for a song or not come out. That from a philosophical perspective isnt consistent with the precepts of our democracy.
I will say that sports in general are wrapping themselves far to up in the flag. Cut all this pregame bullshit out and just have a simple rendition of the Anthem.
Seems to me they got what they want and are purposely being stubborn while continuing to divide the country and risk the success of the company they work for.
They were never protesting the NFL to begin with. The NFL's nominal support for specific issues is cheering, but the kneeling was never about earlier inaction.
Good points. This is the part of the equation the NFL is wisely trying to avoid. What happens if they rule with an iron fist that players must stand? Boycotts of league advertisers would start immediately, and said advertisers would start bailing on the league due to the pressure. That might be worse for business than the minor drop in ratings that have occurred to this point. The NFL knows not to mess with that hornets nest.
That's the part the "It's a private business, they can do what they want!" crowd doesn't seem to factor in. Sure, they can do what they want, and league sponsors will be the ones to feel the wrath. There will be a shitstorm of public pressure that will dwarf what's going on right now.
That's the part the "It's a private business, they can do what they want!" crowd doesn't seem to factor in. Sure, they can do what they want, and league sponsors will be the ones to feel the wrath. There will be a shitstorm of public pressure that will dwarf what's going on right now.
no.
That's the part the "It's a private business, they can do what they want!" crowd doesn't seem to factor in. Sure, they can do what they want, and league sponsors will be the ones to feel the wrath. There will be a shitstorm of public pressure that will dwarf what's going on right now.
Doesn’t the military pay the NFL to have the flag ceremonies and playing of the anthem, therefore making them a sponsor???
The NFL has 2 problems. First, they could have acted appropriately last year and they instead choose to let it snowball. Second, the players hate Roger Goodell.
They blew the first one already, and fixing #2 will cost them millions. They are pretty fucked right now in regards to the anthem.
Seems to me they got what they want and are purposely being stubborn while continuing to divide the country and risk the success of the company they work for.
Have they ponied up any of that money though? They said the same with the concussion suit but it's unconscionable how that money is or rather isn't being dispersed.
Aside from just being idiots, there's a reason the NFL took a half-assed approach to this - they know they're screwed either way. I think they'd be more screwed if they demanded everyone stand at attention, but I don't claim to have all the answers.
Players should be like everyone else and follow company policy while at work and use their stature fame and resources to promote their cause on their own time.
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but it pales in comparison to the outcry if the NFL actually forced players to stand. Right now those who dislike the kneeling are the most vocal - the folks who support the players, or don't care that much, aren't gonna get that riled up about it. If the NFL makes it their official policy that players must stand, that pendulum swings quickly in the other direction.
That's the part the "It's a private business, they can do what they want!" crowd doesn't seem to factor in. Sure, they can do what they want, and league sponsors will be the ones to feel the wrath. There will be a shitstorm of public pressure that will dwarf what's going on right now.
Doesn’t the military pay the NFL to have the flag ceremonies and playing of the anthem, therefore making them a sponsor???
Yes, so we shouldn't expect them to pull their financial backing. But others might.
Does your employer allow you to do that at your place of work? On company time?
What if players stood, but turned their backs to the field? What if players stood but gave a raised fist black power salute like Smith and Carlos on the victory platform in the 1968 Olympics? How does the new rules deal with these situations (other than Trump calling on them to be deported).
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...that the players want to stage peaceful, non-disruptive protests. Assholes.
Does your employer allow you to do that at your place of work? On company time?
So you are angry that the players are getting away with something that you can't? And that's why you want it to stop?
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...that the players want to stage peaceful, non-disruptive protests. Assholes.
Does your employer allow you to do that at your place of work? On company time?
Mine doesn't, but my employer also doesn't insist that I stand at attention for the national anthem and a flag ceremony at the opening of the day's business - which I think is a distinction worth noting.
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In comment 13975519 sb from NYT Forum said:
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...that the players want to stage peaceful, non-disruptive protests. Assholes.
Does your employer allow you to do that at your place of work? On company time?
So you are angry that the players are getting away with something that you can't? And that's why you want it to stop?
Im not angry about anything. I don’t blame the players for kneeling.
I just have a hard time arguing that the owners have done something outside of their rights as the owners of the business.
My personal opinion is that people who get angry/offended about the players kneeling have too much time on their hands and need to find a more worthy use of their energy.
or people want to counter protest with their wallets and viewership.
It's a two way street.
I would like the NFL to let the players kneel and the people who want to boycott the product do so. The NFL loses though in this regard financially.
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...that the players want to stage peaceful, non-disruptive protests. Assholes.
or people want to counter protest with their wallets and viewership.
It's a two way street.
I would like the NFL to let the players kneel and the people who want to boycott the product do so. The NFL loses though in this regard financially.
They made a poor business decision (wrapping their league in God & Country) in the first place. When that had (unintended and unforeseen) consequences, they responded by making further bad decisions. They should lose financially.
I would say yes.
By continuing to knee will it bring more awareness?
I would say no.
Will it bring about change? Remains to be seen.
I'm all for the protests, but not to the Flag. The same Flag that represents those players right to knee in the first place. It just seems wrong.
Peace out
I am not surprised in the least business people are trying to make profit-focused decisions. I'm surprised Americans support a business forcing their employees to either stand for a song or not come out. That from a philosophical perspective isnt consistent with the precepts of our democracy.
Ah, that's not surprising at all. It's obvious by now that many Americans take great pleasure in watching other Americans get finger in the eye.
Sure they will care. Those players will be posting themselves kneeling in the locker room in no time. Then there will be a big deal made of who didn’t show up on the sidelines.
Staying in the locker room will make it worse, IMO.
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Is if they as individuals want to protest they can remain in the locker room in no time no one will care. That’s the decision the owners have made if you really so concerned about social injustice then as players they can do many things just not in the name of the team or the NFL while at work. Go kneel in front of the court house for as long as you want but not in your work clothes.
Sure they will care. Those players will be posting themselves kneeling in the locker room in no time. Then there will be a big deal made of who didn’t show up on the sidelines.
Staying in the locker room will make it worse, IMO.
Correct. Every time the league does something to invite additional conflict, that conflict is going to get covered by the sports media. Which will only further anger the people who were angry about the protests already.
The only other plan (than mine) that makes sense to me is for the players to simply remain in the locker room for the anthem. At least in that scenario nobody needs to feel compelled to either respect or disrespect the national anthem.
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in addition to what Robbie mentioned, now you could potentially divide a locker room because a player made an unpopular decision.
It shouldn't be unpopular because they are a team and should support each other. That's the whole point. That whatever they do, they do as a team, and they all need to agree on it in the first place. If they can't agree on that, then the plan falls apart before and they would need to go to plan B. But the team has bigger problems if they can't be supportive enough of each other to agree to this all for one and one for all approach. And it's not as if anybody will be asked to kneel (since they will be staying in the locker room), so no one would feel forced to show disrespect (which is a lot worse than feeling compelled to show respect).
The only other plan (than mine) that makes sense to me is for the players to simply remain in the locker room for the anthem. At least in that scenario nobody needs to feel compelled to either respect or disrespect the national anthem.
The only plan that really makes sense is to stop playing the anthem and doing the flag ceremony before the games. At best, it's a phony display of patriotism being orchestrated by the NFL. And now we're seeing what it invites when not everyone is on the same page.
The only plan that really makes sense is to stop playing the anthem and doing the flag ceremony before the games. At best, it's a phony display of patriotism being orchestrated by the NFL. And now we're seeing what it invites when not everyone is on the same page.
These guys are employees! Wanna protest something? Do it on your own fucking time and dime. Period!
Any other take on this is wrong.
Players are paid due to the paying customer.
Hello?
Goodell should have imposed strict fines and punishments to the offending player or players and moved on. Anyone crying about it could have been shown the nfl bylaws or whatever they are called.
Can’t believe how confused or lost some are despite the cut and dried nature of thing thing. Once the Nfl failed to act they put the presure on the owners. The owners can’t win here now because they come across as the heavy if and when they rightfully bring the hammer down on a player.
Goodell is a chicken shit asshole.
Express yourself on your own dime. Not on mine!!!
That’s the perplexing thing to me. And what’s more perplexing is that said player picks THAT hill of all hills to stand on. How convenient. I’ll protest during the fight song of the very country that my job is representing.
It’s bullshit. Sorry. It is.
They don't. But in this case, the brand will be hurt if they try to stop players from indulging in said behavior. Quite a conundrum. NFL players aren't your typical 9-to-5ers.
Players should be like everyone else and follow company policy while at work and use their stature fame and resources to promote their cause on their own time.
Wow! What a concept!!
You mean I should not go to work on Tuesday and right in the middle of my dept meeting scream out how much i hate my local congressman? Bad idea?
Why don’t any of these guys speak up during interviews? They are interviewed all week long. Not a word. Most can’t can’t to get the hell away from the microphone even though media speaking is in their very job description. But no, let’s go ahead and kneel during a song that honors the veterans of this country. Why? Just to say FU to the police force. Gimme a fucking break.
But by the NFL owners implementing the rule and forcing the players to stand it only serves to bring more attention back to the sideline pregame, much like how the president came out of no where and made a comment about it served to reignite the issue.
This was just an incredibly dumb move by the owners and without a doubt it's going to blow up in the NFL's face. The coaches are smarter than the owners . . . I expect most of them will stay the hell out of this and let the players do what they want and leave it to the league to decide on what to do once the players inevitably defy the rule.
I just don't understand why this shit upsets people so much. If you feel that one should stand during the anthem, then fucking stand, you can't control others.
You are right about the NFL having every authority to control what these players do on company time, but the truth is that most making this argument are using it as a veil. The truth is that it pissed you off, and you want to shut them up. Hence the "!!!!" At least be honest.
I will say that sports in general are wrapping themselves far to up in the flag. Cut all this pregame bullshit out and just have a simple rendition of the Anthem.
+1
This statement should be pinned to the top of every discussion on the subject. I'm sure there are some smart, hard-working folks on this site, but we don't have the power of football players. If I went to jail for running a dog fighting ring, my company probably wouldn't rehire me when my sentence was up. A little different world for athletes - they can defy bosses.
Ya..
That will happen.
How many of poster on this forum can go against your employer's policies and rules? How many can protest at their place at their place of work and keep their job? If such are the guidelines by which we live, why is it acceptable that pampered athletes have such entitlements? If they want to become activists for a specific agenda, they should do so on their own time, not owners or fans dime.
Ya..
That will happen.
Who do you think they should donate their salaries to?
Milton, you are way off here. This isn’t high school JV football. This is a major societal issue that your solution is further cramming down the throats of many players who just want to be left alone. The NFL is a business and not just for the owners. Most players treat it as a business as well and want to go to work, and go home. Now your forcing them to act on something they want nothing to do with?
All these solutions are half assed. Deal with the kneeling or ban it, anyhing else is going to prolong it and make it worse.
How many of poster on this forum can go against your employer's policies and rules? How many can protest at their place at their place of work and keep their job? If such are the guidelines by which we live, why is it acceptable that pampered athletes have such entitlements? If they want to become activists for a specific agenda, they should do so on their own time, not owners or fans dime.
So if the players Union goes on strike are you willing to make same financial and time investment watching scab players?
No, it wouldn't. And even if it did, how is "dealing with" the kneeling (which is one of your proposed solutions) not also a case where the players have effectively dictated what the rules will be?
The NFL is already a laughingstock on this issue. Anyone who's been paying attention should have long ago realized that the NFL cares about the military, veterans, the flag, and the anthem, about as much as they care about breast cancer awareness or former players with CTE. We should stop giving them credit they haven't earned.
Kapernick's and other African American players grandparents fought in World war 2, Vietnam, and Korea, just like your grandparents. The only difference is they don't see cops killing Americans that look like you and getting away with it.
Just saying...
Having the players stay in the locker, 15 yard penalties, letting 1 player decide what the team does that week....it’s all garbage. The NFL needs to put the issue to bed and the only way that can be done is fully supporting the protests or banning them. It may sting at first but it would eventually go away.
Getting rid of the anthem would be an absolute joke mainly because the players will just find something else to protest.
Having the players stay in the locker, 15 yard penalties, letting 1 player decide what the team does that week....it’s all garbage. The NFL needs to put the issue to bed and the only way that can be done is fully supporting the protests or banning them. It may sting at first but it would eventually go away.
Getting rid of the anthem would be an absolute joke mainly because the players will just find something else to protest.
They left the issue alone for all of last season, and business suffered (apparently as a result). Which is why they created this new policy - which is almost certainly going to exacerbate the situation.
As long as the NFL insists on wrapping themselves in God & Country before every single game, the issue will persist. Ditch the pre-game sanctimony, and you remove the platform for effective civil protest.
It just doesn’t make sense.
Who’s siding with the nfl?
All because of their religious attachment to patriotism, you see people defending the actions of owners because "they want to protect their money." What sports fan watches games so that the businessmen running it prosper?
My other issue is that celebrities, or athletes in this case, are often disingenuous. I have no doubt this is a serious issue that many players believe in, but why aren’t they doing more? Is it because it would require hem to spend their free time and money to organize?
The whole things is just weird. I believe in the cause but the severe lack in follow through with anything that doesn’t involve the cameras is bothersome.
Players should be like everyone else and follow company policy while at work and use their stature fame and resources to promote their cause on their own time.
While most of us indeed would not be able to do this at work, I am not sure the comparison between everyone with a 'job' and a 'boss' with an NFL player is valid. These aren't employees at the local store. They are the very best on the planet at what they do. The league relies on them to exist. They play under contracts that have been collectively bargained. And, the NFL had no rule against kneeling. There was only the suggestion that the players 'should' stand (not 'must') in the NFL procedures manual. The players risk their physical and mental well being, and most are out of the league in a few years. As for the owners, they care about one thing...not loosing money (including the money they charge the military). How many people were previously upset that the networks weren't showing the anthem? How many people were getting beers during the anthem?
I understand why someone might be upset at the protests. And yes, some might be better served by directing more energy to the cause off the field. But let's not pretend owners are upstanding folks and that the NFL is a wholesome, patriotic league. Far from it. They will develop the rule/procedure that they think will save them the most money.
People are just jealous of athletes because they got wealthy off a talent they could never have. People are usually less jealous of other millionaires because they (wrongfully) believe that that some outcome is achievable for them. So with that in mind, people are unnecessarily hard on athletes. "I couldn't get away with that at my pencil pushing job!!"
Being an NFL athlete is a unique thing and not translatable. And people refuse to grapple with that nuance.
Just get rid of the Anthem at sporting events. Problem solved.
The flyovers, the military salutes, the camo gear, it's all to market to these zealots. It works, and it makes money.
Athletes like money too, it’s isnt just the old crusty white guys. There isn’t a single reason why the stars of this league aren’t doing more.
It’s ok for the owners to care and protect their bottom line. No different than any other company. And that’s separate from how athletes go about enacting societal change, they can go do whatever they want on their own time. The problem is they don’t, which I find really fucking strange (not all of them but most of them).
I think the NFL should be helping the players organize things in each community, they really dropped that ball hard. But either way it doesn’t give an employee the right to disrupt business, regardless of the cause.
If the NFL silences the protests (for money reasons), it's their right, but it doesn't mean it *Is* right.
Now, did the NFL play a role in police brutality? No. And to be fair, they're in a tough spot. But by silencing those protests, they've put themselves in the heart of the problem. They *blackballed* the player who started all of this.
Does that mean the protests are working? Sort of. It's shining a light on now a few American problems. Will it lead to change? Probably not. So those who knelt have done a lot for their community. They used their platform to address a problem. Now, we're more alert to the problem at hand. That's not insignificant.
Was there a racist post? Must have been deleted and I missed?
Or is anybody who happens to not see eye-to-eye with you a racist?
I'll wait.
Protests in the streets have a tendency to turn violent, which also angers people.
Players do it in a peaceful, non disruptive way and people are still mad.
So when is the right time to protest?
I'll wait.
If you’re inferring “BMW” to secretly mean “black person”, you’re not part of a solution.
But to be fair, players did eventually get let go. Kaepernick and Reid got black balled. That's the risk the players took.
If the NFL silences the protests (for money reasons), it's their right, but it doesn't mean it *Is* right.
Now, did the NFL play a role in police brutality? No. And to be fair, they're in a tough spot. But by silencing those protests, they've put themselves in the heart of the problem. They *blackballed* the player who started all of this.
Does that mean the protests are working? Sort of. It's shining a light on now a few American problems. Will it lead to change? Probably not. So those who knelt have done a lot for their community. They used their platform to address a problem. Now, we're more alert to the problem at hand. That's not insignificant.
Not quite. They are protesting, and currently being paid to protest, easy right? They aren’t threatening a stoppage over it, why would they? Like I said, too much money on the line for both parties.
Protests in the streets have a tendency to turn violent, which also angers people.
Players do it in a peaceful, non disruptive way and people are still mad.
So when is the right time to protest?
Vast, vast majority of protests in the streets *do not* turn violent. They happen every single day. They’re like airplane flights. They mostly aren’t news. The crashes are news.
One nuance that seems to be lost in the discussions this week — few people are coming out this week and “blaming” the players for anything. The owners took some action this week. In return, there’s been some “outrage” (trite, but whatever you want to call it). And a bunch of people are saying “meh, seems to me the owners are well within their rights to do that”.
One can have that opinion without vilifying the players / being a racist / not believing in free speech. Easily.
I'll wait.
Did you sleep through Occupy Wall Street?
There are of course exceptions and a lot of great work being done. But it isn’t enough and the NFL can help with this but they fucked that up too. It’s on both sides, but I do think it should be during “non business hours”. Many paying customers don’t want to see it (right or wrong) and that’s where we are at.
This. I'm sure John Mara realizes that it's important to the Giants' interests to keep the team united. Don't put this choice on the players.
First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.
Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.
And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.
First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.
Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.
And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.
it's a political discussion on a non political site.
a lot of it does hinge on fake news and identity politics. If this was to be a successful protest it would have to be removed from BLM. Also,the mainstream media is not willing to present these things in an intelligent way.
There are other ways to protest that does not offend the veterans and flag (and reduce NFL revenues). Just pick one, its not that difficult.
This is really IT...along with the fact that the players are employees and at the very base of it, employees have limited NATURAL rights. There are a lot of things that you have the right to do and are legal in this country that you cant do while at your job. Almost all employers prohibit ddrinking while working. Almost ALL employers dont allow you to carry a gun to work. Almost ALL jobs do not allow for religious practices while working. Almost ALL jobs don't allow you to truly demonstrate your right to freely speak your mind.
If you feel this is intolerable to you, most state laws dictate you go find a new job that is more suiting to your needs. Thats really all there is to it. It's not your company....not your rules.
The anthem has been played before every NFL game since the US got into WW2. In fact, the full participation of the US in that war is what prompted MLB and the NFL to start playing the anthem. So those of you who are saying that the anthem isnt an homage to veterans and that they shouldnt get offended are either lying to yourselves or are ignorant to the history behind the star spangled banner being played before games.
The facts are, the players are employees. The owners are the employers (yes, they are the BOSSES). The bosses dont want the players to upset their customers with an unpopular form of protest. That should be that. If the player(s) dont like that fact enough to justify playing the game, they are free to seek another source of income. If fans respond by not showing up because Colin Kaepernick isnt playing because of this ruling, then the bosses have to decide if their point is worth the drop in revenue. But thats not the way it is...the market is speaking against allowing the protest.
The players have plenty of free time diring the offseason to organize and pursue these demonstrations. 6 minths in fact. But you dont see that happening. And lets not forget the fact that they want to kneel during a tribute to the military in order to protest social injustice. Its just stupid and attention whoring. There is absolutely no justification for their cause in my opinion.
Stand, or you are suspended without pay.
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If kneeling is reducing audience and revenue 7% by offending some of their audience, then either stand or reduce all salaries 7%. We know which way that vote will go. The Dixie Chicks learned the hard way about mixing politics and business.
There are other ways to protest that does not offend the veterans and flag (and reduce NFL revenues). Just pick one, its not that difficult.
This is really IT...along with the fact that the players are employees and at the very base of it, employees have limited NATURAL rights. There are a lot of things that you have the right to do and are legal in this country that you cant do while at your job. Almost all employers prohibit ddrinking while working. Almost ALL employers dont allow you to carry a gun to work. Almost ALL jobs do not allow for religious practices while working. Almost ALL jobs don't allow you to truly demonstrate your right to freely speak your mind.
If you feel this is intolerable to you, most state laws dictate you go find a new job that is more suiting to your needs. Thats really all there is to it. It's not your company....not your rules.
The anthem has been played before every NFL game since the US got into WW2. In fact, the full participation of the US in that war is what prompted MLB and the NFL to start playing the anthem. So those of you who are saying that the anthem isnt an homage to veterans and that they shouldnt get offended are either lying to yourselves or are ignorant to the history behind the star spangled banner being played before games.
The facts are, the players are employees. The owners are the employers (yes, they are the BOSSES). The bosses dont want the players to upset their customers with an unpopular form of protest. That should be that. If the player(s) dont like that fact enough to justify playing the game, they are free to seek another source of income. If fans respond by not showing up because Colin Kaepernick isnt playing because of this ruling, then the bosses have to decide if their point is worth the drop in revenue. But thats not the way it is...the market is speaking against allowing the protest.
The players have plenty of free time diring the offseason to organize and pursue these demonstrations. 6 minths in fact. But you dont see that happening. And lets not forget the fact that they want to kneel during a tribute to the military in order to protest social injustice. Its just stupid and attention whoring. There is absolutely no justification for their cause in my opinion.
Stand, or you are suspended without pay.
I agree with the reduction of salary lost by the kneeling, however I wouldn’t take from the ones that stand but I would reduce the ones kneeling to compensate for the lost revenue. I replied to you chopperhatch to say very well written.
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The kneeling protest is against police brutality. I don't understand the argument: "Hey rich athlete, stop kneeling against police brutality, that doesn't cost you anything. Go help build your community."
First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.
Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.
And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.
it's a political discussion on a non political site.
a lot of it does hinge on fake news and identity politics. If this was to be a successful protest it would have to be removed from BLM. Also,the mainstream media is not willing to present these things in an intelligent way.
Everything in the world is connected to politics in some way. If you want to avoid politics you should probably move to the North Pole.
There are of course exceptions and a lot of great work being done. But it isn’t enough and the NFL can help with this but they fucked that up too. It’s on both sides, but I do think it should be during “non business hours”. Many paying customers don’t want to see it (right or wrong) and that’s where we are at.
Kaepernick has donated millions. So have a number of other players. It isn't noisy and sexy because the media doesn't blow it up. Accusing them of not doing work in the community because they aren't getting paid is horse shit.
These incredibly rich and visible individuals chose to stand up for their cause when people would notice.
"Many paying customers don't want to see it", well I'm sure Sterling Brown didn't want to get ganged up on for illegally parking.
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Our grandparents didn't storm the beaches of Normandy so that Kapernick can disrespect our country because he's butthurt he couldn't beat out Blaine Gabbert!
AMEN
+1
Trampled, discarded flags at Packers game leave veterans grumbling - ( New Window )
2. The reason for the protests are absolutely fine. The method is 100% wrong. Their issue was police brutality. It would be more effective for players in each NFL city to protest in front of a police station on their time off. Then, you are targeting the root of your issue. When you protest the anthem, you are essentially casting a net so wide that you end up making it much worse for your cause and for the NFL.
Just keep beating that Blaine Gabbert drum, troll.
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but it pales in comparison to the outcry if the NFL actually forced players to stand. Right now those who dislike the kneeling are the most vocal - the folks who support the players, or don't care that much, aren't gonna get that riled up about it. If the NFL makes it their official policy that players must stand, that pendulum swings quickly in the other direction.
That's the part the "It's a private business, they can do what they want!" crowd doesn't seem to factor in. Sure, they can do what they want, and league sponsors will be the ones to feel the wrath. There will be a shitstorm of public pressure that will dwarf what's going on right now.
Doesn’t the military pay the NFL to have the flag ceremonies and playing of the anthem, therefore making them a sponsor???
The amount they pay compared to corporate sponsors (like in-stadium pouring rights, for example) is a rounding error for the NFL.
How many of poster on this forum can go against your employer's policies and rules? How many can protest at their place at their place of work and keep their job? If such are the guidelines by which we live, why is it acceptable that pampered athletes have such entitlements? If they want to become activists for a specific agenda, they should do so on their own time, not owners or fans dime.
Lost in all of that is why it is logically reasonable to connect a national anthem and flag ceremony to a sporting event being marketed and sold as entertainment. The two things don't have to be connected in the first place.
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When people take to the streets and march, it's "why don't those bums go to work".
Protests in the streets have a tendency to turn violent, which also angers people.
Players do it in a peaceful, non disruptive way and people are still mad.
So when is the right time to protest?
Vast, vast majority of protests in the streets *do not* turn violent. They happen every single day. They’re like airplane flights. They mostly aren’t news. The crashes are news.
One nuance that seems to be lost in the discussions this week — few people are coming out this week and “blaming” the players for anything. The owners took some action this week. In return, there’s been some “outrage” (trite, but whatever you want to call it). And a bunch of people are saying “meh, seems to me the owners are well within their rights to do that”.
One can have that opinion without vilifying the players / being a racist / not believing in free speech. Easily.
Here's the thing that I find interesting. If a group takes to the streets and stages a peaceful march in protest (or support) of a particular issue or cause, it disrupts traffic, but isn't seen as an affront to traffic lights and stop signs. It is seen as a channel by which the protest can happen and be disruptive enough to be noticed (which is the point). The manner in which you protest is not always the thing that you are protesting against.
There is no reason for them to be complicit in damaging the league's image. They should be able to get an agreement to not report on these minor protests. Sure, some stories would still surface, but the hysteria would be limited if they could get their partners who create their televised product to agree not to show or discuss such protests during an NFL broadcast.
I think it has been happening too long to get rid of it. It would end up being a bigger black eye on NFL. They should play it before teams are announced at beginning of game. It has now become a political football. Sadly it has divided people on Anthem instead of bringing people to the original cause. Sad how it has come to this. It had all but gone away until Trump mentioned it at rally. Now it seems to have morphed into something that has no good answer. All people in every category are split on this, doesn't matter race,occupation,military, Non military, Republican, democrat. NFL has always been neutral territory, no sucked into politics. Sucks.
2. The reason for the protests are absolutely fine. The method is 100% wrong. Their issue was police brutality. It would be more effective for players in each NFL city to protest in front of a police station on their time off. Then, you are targeting the root of your issue. When you protest the anthem, you are essentially casting a net so wide that you end up making it much worse for your cause and for the NFL.
1. You're presuming that all people who serve in the military have a monolithic view of this issue. Not all, and likely not even most, veterans view the kneeling as a sign of disrespect.
2. And again, it seems like the message is being lost to those who aren't listening carefully. Protesting in front of a police station would not be effective because the issue of concern is not narrowly the police as an institution - it's systemic.
The resolution that's being called for (an end to police brutality) begins first with public awareness and acceptance, and then a demand for accountability from civilians.
Just get rid of the Anthem at sporting events. Problem solved.
Right? Watching football is an escape for me. I want to be able to watch football without having another "We're the greatest most heroic most free country ever!" message shoved down my throat!
So then you are saying that you are perfectly willing to watch the sub par athletes the owners try to replace the professionals with like the scab games. You guys don’t get it. The NFL and other professional sports are a partnership between the owners and the players they need each other to sustain the $13-14 billion dollar product they have created. It’s not like the usual employer/employee relationships most of us are accustomed to.
It's not included in the clip linked above, but it follows with the Colonel confiding to the Sergeant...
First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.
Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.
And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.
Very nice and succinct post.
I've been out of the country for a few weeks and am just catching up on the news... this story about the Bucks player who was tased or whatever seems very germane to this discussion.
2. The reason for the protests are absolutely fine. The method is 100% wrong. Their issue was police brutality. It would be more effective for players in each NFL city to protest in front of a police station on their time off. Then, you are targeting the root of your issue. When you protest the anthem, you are essentially casting a net so wide that you end up making it much worse for your cause and for the NFL.
So you would you agree then that 150 colonist dressing up as native Americans dumping tea belonging to the British East India Company because they opposed taxation without representation was wrong?
People are just jealous of athletes because they got wealthy off a talent they could never have. People are usually less jealous of other millionaires because they (wrongfully) believe that that some outcome is achievable for them. So with that in mind, people are unnecessarily hard on athletes. "I couldn't get away with that at my pencil pushing job!!"
Being an NFL athlete is a unique thing and not translatable. And people refuse to grapple with that nuance.
^^ban this troll for spreading misinfo. Snowflake Kapernick did not get blackballed, he is suxor and can't beat out Blake Bortles.
Personally I’m fine with the kneeling, doesn’t bother me at all and I sympathize with the cause (although the whole thing is getting pretty ridiculous at this point). But not enough is being done, and that’s on the NFL and the players and the owners.
I'll wait.
1. White people are the only ones to own boats and beach house? Hmmmm, since when?
2. Regardless of how you want to divide people, how someone spends the money that they earned is no body's f-ing business but their own; that's why.
They're not protesting the flag, nor are they protesting the military. They are protesting an issue. An issue that they feel is systemic in this country.
The flag is merely a symbol. The military doesn't defend the flag, they defend our freedom. That freedom includes people who may have opinions that vary across many subjects. That freedom includes the ability to shine a light on things that some citizens may feel are inconsistent with the promises that America fundamentally makes (or attempts to make) to her populace.
If you, or anyone else, are offended by the kneeling, that's your right, too. That's how freedom works. It isn't convenient and it very rarely results in full agreement on anything.
But if you think that the protests are about the flag itself, then, as I said above, you must think that a peaceful march through the streets can only ever be about mass transit and traffic patterns.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
2. The reason for the protests are absolutely fine. The method is 100% wrong. Their issue was police brutality. It would be more effective for players in each NFL city to protest in front of a police station on their time off. Then, you are targeting the root of your issue. When you protest the anthem, you are essentially casting a net so wide that you end up making it much worse for your cause and for the NFL.
100%
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we are talking about some of the most famous and rich people in the country who can easily coordinate and get more people involved in actual work within the community. But that isn’t noisy and sexy and it requires time spent while they aren’t getting paid.
There are of course exceptions and a lot of great work being done. But it isn’t enough and the NFL can help with this but they fucked that up too. It’s on both sides, but I do think it should be during “non business hours”. Many paying customers don’t want to see it (right or wrong) and that’s where we are at.
Kaepernick has donated millions. So have a number of other players. It isn't noisy and sexy because the media doesn't blow it up. Accusing them of not doing work in the community because they aren't getting paid is horse shit.
These incredibly rich and visible individuals chose to stand up for their cause when people would notice.
"Many paying customers don't want to see it", well I'm sure Sterling Brown didn't want to get ganged up on for illegally parking.
Without diminishing Kaepernick, he has donated one million (no "s") to charity. Lets not make him Warren Buffet here.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
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In comment 13975763 UConn4523 said:
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we are talking about some of the most famous and rich people in the country who can easily coordinate and get more people involved in actual work within the community. But that isn’t noisy and sexy and it requires time spent while they aren’t getting paid.
There are of course exceptions and a lot of great work being done. But it isn’t enough and the NFL can help with this but they fucked that up too. It’s on both sides, but I do think it should be during “non business hours”. Many paying customers don’t want to see it (right or wrong) and that’s where we are at.
Kaepernick has donated millions. So have a number of other players. It isn't noisy and sexy because the media doesn't blow it up. Accusing them of not doing work in the community because they aren't getting paid is horse shit.
These incredibly rich and visible individuals chose to stand up for their cause when people would notice.
"Many paying customers don't want to see it", well I'm sure Sterling Brown didn't want to get ganged up on for illegally parking.
Without diminishing Kaepernick, he has donated one million (no "s") to charity. Lets not make him Warren Buffet here.
And check out some of the groups he donated, assatas daugheters named after Cop killer Joann chesimard and various other far left causes including his black panther themed camp for minority children. Guy is a radical anti America cop hater just like his girlfriend who indoctrinated him.
Simple, it's tradition. Plays a big role in American sports.
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
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In comment 13975916 Beer Man said:
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
Apologies. Next time I will type a little slower so that you can understand the point of the post.
I doubt there's anything you could say that I wouldn't understand, but the point is, they didn't play the anthem at your workplace. Nor did they do so in a way that was completely unrelated to your job or your company's core competencies.
Everything else is pure conjecture.
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In comment 13975927 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13975916 Beer Man said:
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
Apologies. Next time I will type a little slower so that you can understand the point of the post.
I doubt there's anything you could say that I wouldn't understand, but the point is, they didn't play the anthem at your workplace. Nor did they do so in a way that was completely unrelated to your job or your company's core competencies.
Everything else is pure conjecture.
Kind of like this? - ( New Window )
What do you think happened to the guy at the 1:30 mark of the video? - ( New Window )
A bunch of guys that have their head squarely up their ass.
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So does Doug Baldwin. So does Malcolm Jenkins. So do a host of others. Must come across as guys you'd want your sons to grow up to be like.
A bunch of guys that have their head squarely up their ass.
How so? Whether you agree with the way they feel, each of those three has been active in not only speaking up, but also doing something about it in a way that at least has the potential to affect positive change.
What about them makes you say they have their head up their ass?
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
Except the players aren't doing any speaking about this while they're on the clock. They're engaging in silent protest. That, in turn, prompts the feeding frenzy media to cover them and the issue that they're protesting. They're not interrupting the game to get on their soapbox.
I don't even know why I'm bothering to engage you.
This is the fundamental issue, IMO.
The league stands for playing football, providing entertainment, and generating profit. Anything else is a value that you've assigned to them, not one they actually stand for. Even the idea of having the players being involved in the flag ceremony and anthem is part of the revenue model for the NFL (and one that has only been done the way it currently is, since 2009). It's not some altruistic show of patriotism by the league.
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
I pay to watch football too. Which is why I think they should do away with the pregame anthem and flag ceremony entirely.
Playing in the NFL is a privilege. If you think that anyone is granted the right to play I think that you are confused.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
Playing in the NFL is a privilege. If you think that anyone is granted the right to play I think that you are confused.
By that token, having ANY career is a privilege. That does not give your employer the right to impose upon you an infringement of your rights for activities which do not fall within your core competencies. Nor does it allow a labor organization with a collectively bargained agreement with their employees to unilaterally impose changes in policy without bargaining with the labor union.
I'm sorry that this doesn't fit the way you emotionally feel about this, but that doesn't make you correct.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
As someone who believes in the players (and all people) having a right to observe the anthem and flag ceremony in any way they choose - as an example as the most basic American freedom about the most symbolic American rite - there is absolutely no chance that I would stop watching if they banned kneeling. I think it will get pretty ugly if they do that, but my reasons for watching football have nothing to do with a 90 second ceremony that has zero to do with the game itself.
Support the players. The fans who just want to watch football will stick around. The ones butthurt because some politicians blew a whistle to divide this country will come back eventually.
This is just stupid. And they will lose other fans because of it.
NBA handled this right.
Granted, ball game, alcohol, bleachers, all condsidered. Is this really a matter to come to blows over? I find it fascinating how some just lose their head over a personal choice another makes with literally no impact on them.
Preference, politics, etc. aside I can't ever imagine getting into a fight over something like that.
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In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
As someone who believes in the players (and all people) having a right to observe the anthem and flag ceremony in any way they choose - as an example as the most basic American freedom about the most symbolic American rite - there is absolutely no chance that I would stop watching if they banned kneeling. I think it will get pretty ugly if they do that, but my reasons for watching football have nothing to do with a 90 second ceremony that has zero to do with the game itself.
Same.
History shows that when people don't care or as we've seen on this and previous threads, think it's a non-existent issue, then it's never the right cause, time, venue, or person to lead a protest. Frank Luntz, hardly a liberal, tweeted last year 3 questions from Gallup polls taken during the early to mid 1960's. 60+% of Americans were against sit-in's at segregated lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes (the description of the times). Two months after the Civil Rights Act was signed, 70+% of Americans thought demonstrations by Negroes should stop even though all of their demands (in the areas of jobs, housing, and schools) hadn't been met. Black people protesting has never been "popular", regardless of where and when it takes place. To act like the venue is the only issue here is disingenuous. To pretend the problem is the flaws of Colin Kaepernick is disingenuous. Then there's the next step of pretending this is all a media hoax/figment of people's imaginations. Read the Pew Research Center poll of police officers from January 2017... even black police officers don't think this is a figment of people's imaginations. Heck, the only thing an overwhelming majority of the officers agreed on is that those who consistently do a poor job aren't held accountable.
By week 2 of the the 2017 season, only 8 players were still kneeling across 32 teams (according to ESPN, who was keeping a running tally). Had the NFL left it alone, the number surely would've gone down from there. Even people who felt strongly about the cause weren't going to quit their jobs even as it was clear Colin Kaepernick was being denied a job over his decision to kneel. Only when Trump decided to call CK and other players who kneeled "sons of bitches", did the number of players kneeling go back up. The Malcolm Jenkins, Doug Baldwins, Chris Longs, and Eric Reids of the sport don't deserve to be denigrated that way, yet no NFL owners would stand up for them. That lack of good faith/support (of individuals even if disagreeing with the kneeling) is what makes it difficult for these players to do what NBA players have done when it comes to not kneeling. (It's not about having a set rule.)
I agree with one of the early posters who wrote let the protesters protest and let those who want to stop watching the NFL because of it stop watching, It would have all blown over eventually but now they just created a new problem.
Spot On!
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When representing the NFL one should represent what the league stands for. (No pun intended) If players want to protest something they should do it on their own time and not in uniform. Abusing the stage that the league gives you is wrong. Snacks and all of the pissing & moaning ingrates should just STFU and play football.
Spot On!
Not surprising.
Granted, ball game, alcohol, bleachers, all condsidered. Is this really a matter to come to blows over? I find it fascinating how some just lose their head over a personal choice another makes with literally no impact on them.
Preference, politics, etc. aside I can't ever imagine getting into a fight over something like that.
Ironically, the hat rules did not historically apply to women. But then again, most of these "patriots" probably wear a baseball cap at the dinner table. But they should definitely be our voices on the subject of etiquette.
History shows that when people don't care or as we've seen on this and previous threads, think it's a non-existent issue, then it's never the right cause, time, venue, or person to lead a protest. Frank Luntz, hardly a liberal, tweeted last year 3 questions from Gallup polls taken during the early to mid 1960's. 60+% of Americans were against sit-in's at segregated lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes (the description of the times). Two months after the Civil Rights Act was signed, 70+% of Americans thought demonstrations by Negroes should stop even though all of their demands (in the areas of jobs, housing, and schools) hadn't been met. Black people protesting has never been "popular", regardless of where and when it takes place. To act like the venue is the only issue here is disingenuous. To pretend the problem is the flaws of Colin Kaepernick is disingenuous. Then there's the next step of pretending this is all a media hoax/figment of people's imaginations. Read the Pew Research Center poll of police officers from January 2017... even black police officers don't think this is a figment of people's imaginations. Heck, the only thing an overwhelming majority of the officers agreed on is that those who consistently do a poor job aren't held accountable.
By week 2 of the the 2017 season, only 8 players were still kneeling across 32 teams (according to ESPN, who was keeping a running tally). Had the NFL left it alone, the number surely would've gone down from there. Even people who felt strongly about the cause weren't going to quit their jobs even as it was clear Colin Kaepernick was being denied a job over his decision to kneel. Only when Trump decided to call CK and other players who kneeled "sons of bitches", did the number of players kneeling go back up. The Malcolm Jenkins, Doug Baldwins, Chris Longs, and Eric Reids of the sport don't deserve to be denigrated that way, yet no NFL owners would stand up for them. That lack of good faith/support (of individuals even if disagreeing with the kneeling) is what makes it difficult for these players to do what NBA players have done when it comes to not kneeling. (It's not about having a set rule.)
This is an excellent post. I agree completely.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
Because they either claim it doesn't exist, therefore you're just protesting America itself, or they like police brutality and want more of it.
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All you in favor of kneeling during the anthem to protest your cause would you be ok with a player kneeling to protest illegal immigrants or kneeling to protest abortions or transgender bathroom rights? Would you say the same thing that iits their right and they shouldn’t be criticized or boycotted?
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
So by that logic the kneelers are protesting the police and military
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
That's some random woman they don't know who's the victim. So no harm no foul.
When they see someone protesting racial inequity (be it by kneeling during the anthem, marching in the street, or posting on a forum), then they feel victimized - because victims of racial inequity should just be quiet, accept their fate, be grateful for the privilege of breathing (at least until a random police officer decides to deny them of it) and deny anything is unequal.
Tim Tebow knelt during the anthem IIRC and no one had a problem with it because he wasn't protesting racial inequality. It's not about the anthem.
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In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
That's some random woman they don't know who's the victim. So no harm no foul.
When they see someone protesting racial inequity (be it by kneeling during the anthem, marching in the street, or posting on a forum), then they feel victimized - because victims of racial inequity should just be quiet, accept their fate, be grateful for the privilege of breathing (at least until a random police officer decides to deny them of it) and deny anything is unequal.
Tim Tebow knelt during the anthem IIRC and no one had a problem with it because he wasn't protesting racial inequality. It's not about the anthem.
Tim Tebow never knelt during the anthem.
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In comment 13976377 giant24 said:
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All you in favor of kneeling during the anthem to protest your cause would you be ok with a player kneeling to protest illegal immigrants or kneeling to protest abortions or transgender bathroom rights? Would you say the same thing that iits their right and they shouldn’t be criticized or boycotted?
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
So by that logic the kneelers are protesting the police and military
The owners have opened the door for the anthem to represent more than the tenants of patriotism, liberty and honoring the military by involving law enforcement.
If veterans and active military are offended by the protest, I absolutely respect and see that as an intellectually honest and sound view point.
If players want to use the forum to express their liberty, the often forgetten other fundamental tenant of Key's verses, I respect and see that as an equally intellectually honest and sound view point.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
The answer to this is pretty obvious - those of us who are okay with the kneeling are okay with it partially because there's agreement that there's an important issue to raise awareness about, but mostly because kneeling for 3 minutes before a game is such an inocuous thing that even if it were for an unjust cause that it wouldn't be much of a bother.
But really, this shouldn't even be to the point of making moral equivalency with other political topics. Even you're someone who doesn't believe police brutality is a real issue, why have a such strong reaction against someone who does? Is there political counter position to this - does anyone actually think that we need MORE police brutality?
Link - ( New Window )
We need a lot of things changed in this country, but I'll be damned if I want it all shoved down my throat every time I turn around and especially when it interferes with my time watching the games.
These players can go support whatever cause they want on their own time and with their own money. We don't want to hear it. Pick another way to support your cause if you really believe that police are targeting black folks systematically and nobody cares enough to fight the system. Personally, I find the notion to be extremely unfounded and basically ridiculous. It is my right to have that opinion, wrong or right.
The players who kneel have a right to their opinions too. The NFL doesn't have to agree, nor do they have to let the players abuse the stage they've been given which really was meant for playing football. Nobody cares what the players think, the same as nobody cares what I think. Nobody cares what the owners think either, but they are not promoting police brutality by ending these protests. They are simply trying to get everyone's focus back on the games and not these bullshit childish protests that accomplish nothing, distract the fans, and fail to ever affect any situation in any sort of positive way.
We need a lot of things changed in this country, but I'll be damned if I want it all shoved down my throat every time I turn around and especially when it interferes with my time watching the games.
These players can go support whatever cause they want on their own time and with their own money. We don't want to hear it. Pick another way to support your cause if you really believe that police are targeting black folks systematically and nobody cares enough to fight the system. Personally, I find the notion to be extremely unfounded and basically ridiculous. It is my right to have that opinion, wrong or right.
The players who kneel have a right to their opinions too. The NFL doesn't have to agree, nor do they have to let the players abuse the stage they've been given which really was meant for playing football. Nobody cares what the players think, the same as nobody cares what I think. Nobody cares what the owners think either, but they are not promoting police brutality by ending these protests. They are simply trying to get everyone's focus back on the games and not these bullshit childish protests that accomplish nothing, distract the fans, and fail to ever affect any situation in any sort of positive way.
Spurring lots of conversation, engaging the NFL to contribute millions of dollars, sacrificing careers, and personal contribution to the tune of a million dollars could be argued as affecting a situation.
Two organizations, the Veterans of Foreign Wars and The American Legion, are openly criticizing National Football League (NFL) players for protesting the American flag by kneeling during the national anthem.
NFL players making use of sports events to disrespect the American flag is unacceptable, VFW’s national commander Keith Harman, a Vietnam combat veteran, said in a statement Monday.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/25/v....american-flag/
the VFW and the American legion are the two biggest and oldest veteran organizations in America. so when you earned their distain you best rethink your behavior, because if any group in America has the vast majority of public respect and support is our veteran
so if they say it is disrespectful to kneel during our national anthem then that is what it is disrespectful. no matter what anyone else try's to claim
so I will add
how can anyone claim they support and respect our veterans, and then turn around and kneel for our national anthem knowing how disrespectful it is too them?
Link - ( New Window )
Two organizations, the Veterans of Foreign Wars and The American Legion, are openly criticizing National Football League (NFL) players for protesting the American flag by kneeling during the national anthem.
NFL players making use of sports events to disrespect the American flag is unacceptable, VFW’s national commander Keith Harman, a Vietnam combat veteran, said in a statement Monday.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/25/v....american-flag/
the VFW and the American legion are the two biggest and oldest veteran organizations in America. so when you earned their distain you best rethink your behavior, because if any group in America has the vast majority of public respect and support is our veteran
so if they say it is disrespectful to kneel during our national anthem then that is what it is disrespectful. no matter what anyone else try's to claim
so I will add
how can anyone claim they support and respect our veterans, and then turn around and kneel for our national anthem knowing how disrespectful it is too them? Link - ( New Window )
That's irrelevant. It's about freedom.
Now you figure out how to link? You're useless.
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In comment 13976119 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
That's some random woman they don't know who's the victim. So no harm no foul.
When they see someone protesting racial inequity (be it by kneeling during the anthem, marching in the street, or posting on a forum), then they feel victimized - because victims of racial inequity should just be quiet, accept their fate, be grateful for the privilege of breathing (at least until a random police officer decides to deny them of it) and deny anything is unequal.
Tim Tebow knelt during the anthem IIRC and no one had a problem with it because he wasn't protesting racial inequality. It's not about the anthem.
Tim Tebow never knelt during the anthem.
How did Klaatu get banned and you didn't?
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
Yes. All of it. Because the cause is separate. Making anyone stand for the anthem as a mandatory act removes every shred of patriotism from the anthem itself. That's the point. Standing for the anthem needs to be something that we do by choice. That's how freedom works, and that's what the anthem is about.
scary that people like him exist.
That’s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....
I do t recall the anthem being broadcast for early games, if it is, I don’t tune in early enough to watch. I definitely don’t see it for late games because I’m always watching the tail end of an early game. Prime time games I miss it because again- I don’t tune in, that is if they even broadcast it at all.
Either way, I don’t actually give a flying fuck if they kneel, stand, or grab their crotches and slap each other on the ass while the anthem is being played. This is America, land of the free- which means you do your thing and I’ll do mine and it’s all good as long as we aren’t hurting one another. If you want to argue that someone kneeling during the anthem “hurts” your enjoyment of the game because you’re offended, maybe you should learn to control your emotions a bit better because in order to enjoy the benifits of freedom (both speech and more importantly thought-they’re closely related) you’re gonna hear a shit ton of offensive stuff.
As to what they’re protesting- I personally think they’re doing more harm than good. There’s an issue of accountability that isn’t as closely related to black and white as many folks like to think, regardless of many of the correlations. The solution (or at least getting headed down the right path) is counterintuitive to those that aren’t looking at all of the data and are drawing incorrect conclusions from 5min news snippets.
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if you don't like the kneeling don't watch the game.
That’s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....
If the NFL pushes too hard and alienates young, black men, they are going to have a much bigger issue than a few percentage points of folks tuning out.
Really think about this surfacely -- the NFL is going to fine black men for either not standing there like they are told or not be seen.
This league is one prominent player away from kneeling and getting fined from an all out revolt.
If the owners can't see this their heads are further up their back account than we all thought.
I don’t disagree with just letting it happen, I think they should. But the revenue slow down is real, so who knows what they will do.
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In comment 13976623 XBRONX said:
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if you don't like the kneeling don't watch the game.
That�s kinda the crux of the issue here, people are tuning out....
If the NFL pushes too hard and alienates young, black men, they are going to have a much bigger issue than a few percentage points of folks tuning out.
Really think about this surfacely -- the NFL is going to fine black men for either not standing there like they are told or not be seen.
This league is one prominent player away from kneeling and getting fined from an all out revolt.
If the owners can't see this their heads are further up their back account than we all thought.
There really is no good solution to this and there was never meant to be. Welcome to the world of identity politics.
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
Not only stop watching, but I think you will see an explosion of protesting/outrage should a player (especially a star player) get fined/suspended for kneeling should the NFL decide to outlaw it.
The NFL is the perfect target. Billionaires and millionaire? Check. Male dominated industry? Check. Workforce/product (value added) comprised mainly of minorities (predominantly from the low end of the economic spectrum)? Check. One could argue that the NFL is a perfect microcosm of the 1%, capitalism, racism, and the patriarchy yet again working to keep all but the privileged down.
Most of you on this thread once again are working really hard to say why you're ok with kneeling, or trying to support the cause that started the kneeling to begin with but not many of you are trying to understand why people find it offensive." It does seem like veterans or veterans groups are sort of being used.
Many veterans actually support the right to kneel, a lot don't, and sometimes people say "if you didn't serve you don't have the right to say what is or isn't disrespectful to veterans."
Some people simply dismiss the people who are offended by it as racism (ridiculous, but typical - I especially found it interesting how a poster could use the fact there are people on rosters who get charged with domestic violence and allegedly fans are ok with that, but not kneeling - this a) is a straw man since these very same people (and most people) very possibly don't want players on their team convicted of DV, but also ignores the fact since NFL arrests have been recorded 95% of the players charged with DV have been black - same poster lied about Tebow kneeling during the Anthem in another attempt to make it racial), others just say 'Merica and it's got to be uneducated red necks who have a problem with it, and others just don't bother to try.
For the record, I do believe the cause is real, and I'm sensitive to it, but I also believe it is exacerbated because the media fans the flames since racism sells. My personal stance is I'd prefer players don't kneel, but I wouldn't stop watching because of the kneeling, I think there are probably better ways they could help the cause. And I definitely don't think they have a right to free speech on the sidelines of an NFL game. Can they burn a flag on the sidelines?
Anyway, I found an informal, unofficial link on random web forum that had some good quotes about the topic (I believe the author was not American, but answering "why do people in America have an issue with kneeling):
The answer to "what is wrong with kneeling" is symbolism. And more specifically, the question shouldn't be "what is wrong with kneeling" but instead "why do many people see it as wrong"; since there's no objective metrics of what's right or wrong, and the answer may very largely depend on one's ideological postulates.
So, let's answer that second question - why do many people consider it wrong.
First off, I'd like to clarify something which seems to confuse the question poster. It's not the "kneeling" as a physical act itself that is perceived as being wrong.
It's more of "doing anything that is protesting the anthem".
Kneeling is merely a stand-in for "something OTHER than standard etiquette of standing with hand on heart" - and yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of "land of the free" imposing a unified unyielding standard of expressing patriotism.
As such, such a normally-respectful gesture as kneeling (which originated in feudal knights showing respect to their liege), becomes an insult - wholly because of intent, not the form.
(It's also worth noting that at this point some players decided to protest in far less respectful ways, including stretching for the game during the anthem, or deliberately not showing up on the field).
Now, as to why it's perceived as insult:
It's generally[1] considered that showing respect to one's country's national symbols (specifically, flag and anthem) is a show of respect for the country in general, as well as to people in the armed forces who risk their lives to protect the country. And conversely, it's seen that showing disrespect to a country's symbols is disrespecting the country (and, by extension, its citizens). At its root, this is why so many people (~50%) are utterly opposed to, for example, flag burning, despite the fact that there's a clear First Amendment point that flag burning is perfectly fine, being a form of political expression.
[1] - Before people start spouting about "evil capitalism" and "white pride" and "evil Amerikkka" (because Trump is somehow involved), it's worth noting that the concept is NOT uniquely American, and exists in, for example, India, Mexico, and Jamaica, (random Google picks) in pretty much the same form. It also existed in former USSR and probably in the modern Russian federation. I'd be surprised if it does not exist in some form in most countries.
As such, regardless for what motivated the NFL protests, a lot of people in US see taking the knee during the anthem as an explicit deliberate insult to the country. Some people consider that "wrong", regardless of what the protest is about.
To quantify "a lot", let's look at the polls from 2016 (no 2017 numbers aside from one unscientific small poll that I could find):
In one poll, which was conducted by Reuters, 72 percent of Americans said that they thought Kaepernick's behavior was unpatriotic. Another 61 percent said that they do not "support the stance Colin Kaepernick is taking and his decision not to stand during the national anthem."
all American adults disapprove 54 - 38 percent of athletes refusing to stand during the National Anthem in protest of perceived police violence against the black community, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.
An extra special dose of insult comes from the fact that many people associate American Football with patriotism and the country, symbolically. I suspect the emotional effect would have been far less if it all happened at a real (Soccer) Football game.
Interestingly, there does seem to be some actual blowback to the NFL because of this as per polling:
“Are football fans voting with their TVs?” asks a new Rasmussen Reports survey. “As the NFL struggles to explain this season’s downturn in viewer ratings, 34 percent of American adults say they are less likely to watch an NFL game because of the growing number of protests by players on the field,” the poll reports, noting that 12 percent say they are more likely to watch, while half say the protests have no effect on their viewing decisions.
P.S. As an additional, secondary issue, some people take umbrage at the idea that NFL players—whose multi-million dollar salaries are enabled both by the institutions of the USA and by millions of fans who are offended by the kneeling—are protesting "injustices". It's a lot easier to accept the protest from random Joe Schmoe rather than a multi-millionaire success story, regardless of what the protest is about (this is similar to how people earning $40K react to "sexism affects unequal salaries in Hollywood" protests from actresses being paid millions of dollars—it doesn't matter if they actually are paid less than male actors, or what the reasons are, it still seems utterly hypocritical to many average persons.
Some other interesting quotes from other articles.
I found one veteran, a woman from Tennessee that had a interesting POV:
Another:
But, he said, "People who kneel during the anthem (whether they know it or not) push an anti-America message."
And for him, "that ain't cool."
"What gets me is that people don't use their freedom responsibly. Kneeling during the anthem does attack a powerful symbol (the flag) and that'll predictably upset lots of people," he said.
"I want peace, which means people shouldn't be stupid. They can be stupid, but they shouldn't be."
In the end I think the problem the kneeling has caused is it's created a divide with people who probably support the cause to be opposed to the protest.
And I don't think that's helpful.
Most of you on this thread once again are working really hard to say why you're ok with kneeling, or trying to support the cause that started the kneeling to begin with but not many of you are trying to understand why people find it offensive." It does seem like veterans or veterans groups are sort of being used.
Many veterans actually support the right to kneel, a lot don't, and sometimes people say "if you didn't serve you don't have the right to say what is or isn't disrespectful to veterans."
Some people simply dismiss the people who are offended by it as racism (ridiculous, but typical - I especially found it interesting how a poster could use the fact there are people on rosters who get charged with domestic violence and allegedly fans are ok with that, but not kneeling - this a) is a straw man since these very same people (and most people) very possibly don't want players on their team convicted of DV, but also ignores the fact since NFL arrests have been recorded 95% of the players charged with DV have been black - same poster lied about Tebow kneeling during the Anthem in another attempt to make it racial), others just say 'Merica and it's got to be uneducated red necks who have a problem with it, and others just don't bother to try.
For the record, I do believe the cause is real, and I'm sensitive to it, but I also believe it is exacerbated because the media fans the flames since racism sells. My personal stance is I'd prefer players don't kneel, but I wouldn't stop watching because of the kneeling, I think there are probably better ways they could help the cause. And I definitely don't think they have a right to free speech on the sidelines of an NFL game. Can they burn a flag on the sidelines?
Anyway, I found an informal, unofficial link on random web forum that had some good quotes about the topic (I believe the author was not American, but answering "why do people in America have an issue with kneeling):
Quote:
The answer to "what is wrong with kneeling" is symbolism. And more specifically, the question shouldn't be "what is wrong with kneeling" but instead "why do many people see it as wrong"; since there's no objective metrics of what's right or wrong, and the answer may very largely depend on one's ideological postulates.
So, let's answer that second question - why do many people consider it wrong.
First off, I'd like to clarify something which seems to confuse the question poster. It's not the "kneeling" as a physical act itself that is perceived as being wrong.
It's more of "doing anything that is protesting the anthem".
Kneeling is merely a stand-in for "something OTHER than standard etiquette of standing with hand on heart" - and yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of "land of the free" imposing a unified unyielding standard of expressing patriotism.
As such, such a normally-respectful gesture as kneeling (which originated in feudal knights showing respect to their liege), becomes an insult - wholly because of intent, not the form.
(It's also worth noting that at this point some players decided to protest in far less respectful ways, including stretching for the game during the anthem, or deliberately not showing up on the field).
Now, as to why it's perceived as insult:
It's generally[1] considered that showing respect to one's country's national symbols (specifically, flag and anthem) is a show of respect for the country in general, as well as to people in the armed forces who risk their lives to protect the country. And conversely, it's seen that showing disrespect to a country's symbols is disrespecting the country (and, by extension, its citizens). At its root, this is why so many people (~50%) are utterly opposed to, for example, flag burning, despite the fact that there's a clear First Amendment point that flag burning is perfectly fine, being a form of political expression.
[1] - Before people start spouting about "evil capitalism" and "white pride" and "evil Amerikkka" (because Trump is somehow involved), it's worth noting that the concept is NOT uniquely American, and exists in, for example, India, Mexico, and Jamaica, (random Google picks) in pretty much the same form. It also existed in former USSR and probably in the modern Russian federation. I'd be surprised if it does not exist in some form in most countries.
As such, regardless for what motivated the NFL protests, a lot of people in US see taking the knee during the anthem as an explicit deliberate insult to the country. Some people consider that "wrong", regardless of what the protest is about.
To quantify "a lot", let's look at the polls from 2016 (no 2017 numbers aside from one unscientific small poll that I could find):
In one poll, which was conducted by Reuters, 72 percent of Americans said that they thought Kaepernick's behavior was unpatriotic. Another 61 percent said that they do not "support the stance Colin Kaepernick is taking and his decision not to stand during the national anthem."
all American adults disapprove 54 - 38 percent of athletes refusing to stand during the National Anthem in protest of perceived police violence against the black community, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.
An extra special dose of insult comes from the fact that many people associate American Football with patriotism and the country, symbolically. I suspect the emotional effect would have been far less if it all happened at a real (Soccer) Football game.
Interestingly, there does seem to be some actual blowback to the NFL because of this as per polling:
“Are football fans voting with their TVs?” asks a new Rasmussen Reports survey. “As the NFL struggles to explain this season’s downturn in viewer ratings, 34 percent of American adults say they are less likely to watch an NFL game because of the growing number of protests by players on the field,” the poll reports, noting that 12 percent say they are more likely to watch, while half say the protests have no effect on their viewing decisions.
P.S. As an additional, secondary issue, some people take umbrage at the idea that NFL players—whose multi-million dollar salaries are enabled both by the institutions of the USA and by millions of fans who are offended by the kneeling—are protesting "injustices". It's a lot easier to accept the protest from random Joe Schmoe rather than a multi-millionaire success story, regardless of what the protest is about (this is similar to how people earning $40K react to "sexism affects unequal salaries in Hollywood" protests from actresses being paid millions of dollars—it doesn't matter if they actually are paid less than male actors, or what the reasons are, it still seems utterly hypocritical to many average persons.
Some other interesting quotes from other articles.
I found one veteran, a woman from Tennessee that had a interesting POV:
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Having a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do," she said. "There are many ways to protest, but the national anthem should be our moment to stand together as one United States of America.”
Another:
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Jarrin Jackson, a former Army officer and Ranger who deployed with the 101st Airborne Division and now lives in Oklahoma, said, "It doesn't bother (me) how people use their freedom."
But, he said, "People who kneel during the anthem (whether they know it or not) push an anti-America message."
And for him, "that ain't cool."
"What gets me is that people don't use their freedom responsibly. Kneeling during the anthem does attack a powerful symbol (the flag) and that'll predictably upset lots of people," he said.
"I want peace, which means people shouldn't be stupid. They can be stupid, but they shouldn't be."
In the end I think the problem the kneeling has caused is it's created a divide with people who probably support the cause to be opposed to the protest.
And I don't think that's helpful.
I enjoyed reading this post and it added insight into why folks get so bent out of shape about the kneeling that I hadn’t considered. Thanks.
Probably true. How does it work for the NBA?
It's a more complex issue than some people want to admit.
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doesn't mean you should" is precisely the argument being used against the NFL when they exercise their legal right to dictate anthem conduct policy to players.
Probably true. How does it work for the NBA?
It's a more complex issue than some people want to admit.
ESPN had an interesting article a few days ago addressing this very question - why the NBA, with its more restrictive, pre-existing anthem policy, doesn't have the same problem with player protests. It appears to have little to do with the policy itself.
Link - ( New Window )
They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.
They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.
Okay, so how far are they legally allowed to go?
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They don't actually have a legal right to enact the policy unilaterally in the way that they did.
Okay, so how far are they legally allowed to go?
Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.
That's not even going to the constitutional challenge regarding whether any employer has a right to force any employee to observe the flag ceremony in a particular way when it wasn't an initial term of their employment or in any way related to their job.
The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:
The NBA just gets it.
The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:
Quote:
I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.
The NBA just gets it.
The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!
Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.
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That ESPN article totally nails it.
The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:
Quote:
I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.
The NBA just gets it.
The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!
Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.
You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.
Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
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In comment 13976936 christian said:
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That ESPN article totally nails it.
The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:
Quote:
I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.
The NBA just gets it.
The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!
Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.
You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.
Better than being a mindless tool who constantly falls for obvious fake news and narratives.
Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.
Really? The NFL competition committee establishes the most current rules of the game - catch rules, how players need to wear their uniforms, medical protocol, technology, roster rules, etc, etc. None of those are bargained with the union.
Why is this different?
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Because the NFL is a union-based labor organization, this policy should have been bargained with the NFLPA. The fact that it wasn't invites a simple labor law challenge.
Really? The NFL competition committee establishes the most current rules of the game - catch rules, how players need to wear their uniforms, medical protocol, technology, roster rules, etc, etc. None of those are bargained with the union.
Why is this different?
The very existence of the competition committee was collectively bargained.
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In comment 13976942 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
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In comment 13976936 christian said:
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That ESPN article totally nails it.
The NBA is just absolutely less tone-deaf than the NFL and all of the owners and players don't hate Silver. Imagine Rog saying this on why the league is successful:
Quote:
I attribute it to the fact that our players, because they are young people themselves, are so highly attuned to other young people and to popular culture. There have been times in this league when it’s worked to our disadvantage. But we’ve caught a wave. The players enjoy being the multidimensional people they are on social media and demonstrating to the public and to their fans that they are more than just basketball players, that they have points of view about what’s happening politically, that they have particular fashion tastes and music tastes.
The NBA just gets it.
The NBA is positively gestapo-ish compared to the NFL. Herp derp those fascists demand a dress code, what about teh player's constitutional freedum to express themselves!
Goodell is absolutely the biggest dumbfuq in history.
You're a troll, and most likely a dupe. Go away.
Better than being a mindless tool who constantly falls for obvious fake news and narratives.
So you admit that you're a troll and a dupe?
And I agree, one of us is mindless.
What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.
I disagree. It's good to have posters who are willing to put their ignorance out there on full display - that way you know where they stand and know not to waste time responding to them.
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
What does this have to do with the anthem? This is a blatant political post and should be bannable.
It directly relates to the reason the kneelers are kneeling. They state that the police target black males for no reason and that its racial. Meanwhile every statistic shows that black males commit a hugely disproportionate amount of violent crimes including murdering police. Secondly it goes to the fact that the media does not report on these statistics cause and effect and downplay or don't report at all the other side of the story like this. How is this not a national story and an outrage!!
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
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In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
Action > Narrative
Having the players stay in the locker, 15 yard penalties, letting 1 player decide what the team does that week....it’s all garbage. The NFL needs to put the issue to bed and the only way that can be done is fully supporting the protests or banning them. It may sting at first but it would eventually go away.
Getting rid of the anthem would be an absolute joke mainly because the players will just find something else to protest.
Guess I've been out of the loop...it's nether the flag nor the anthem that are the target of the protests. Protesting during the anthem is simply an effective way to call attention to the protest.
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In comment 13977095 giant24 said:
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In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular
Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?
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In comment 13975798 81_Great_Dane said:
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The kneeling protest is against police brutality. I don't understand the argument: "Hey rich athlete, stop kneeling against police brutality, that doesn't cost you anything. Go help build your community."
First of all,how does athletes spending their money in economically underdeveloped black areas do anything about police brutality? Seriously, you could turn every depressed black neighborhood in the country into into Wakanda and that wouldn't do a thing about police brutality.
Every black man, regardless of education and economic status, has to be concerned about police brutality. Black people get arrested, or beaten, or tased, or shot, for no particular reason all the time, regardless of how much money they have. Just the news of this past week showed that pretty clearly. "Driving while black" is real. That's why these rich, privileged men are the perfect people to protest police brutality. Their wealth and privilege does not spare them this threat.
And another thing: these athletes come from all different kinds of communities; if you think "their community" is "economically depressed places where poor black people live," you're already stereotyping.
it's a political discussion on a non political site.
a lot of it does hinge on fake news and identity politics. If this was to be a successful protest it would have to be removed from BLM. Also,the mainstream media is not willing to present these things in an intelligent way.
Everything in the world is connected to politics in some way. If you want to avoid politics you should probably move to the North Pole.
And get et by a starving polart bear.
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In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13977095 giant24 said:
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In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular
Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?
Banned for pointing out verifiable truths about what a radical CK is - ok then. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable
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In comment 13977124 giant24 said:
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In comment 13977110 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13977095 giant24 said:
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In comment 13977090 Ryan in Albany said:
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In comment 13976968 giant24 said:
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Refusing to follow her orders to get out of car after house burglary. This is what cops have to deal with. And why isn’t this story getting wall to wall coverage!! Oh yeah cause it doesn’t fit the media’s narrative. And if you don’t think this anti-police kneeling isn’t adding to the dangers cop face every day you’d be wrong. Black male runs over white female officer with stolen Jeep - ( New Window )
It's not anti-police. It's anti-POLICE BRUTALITY. JFC.
yeah its not anti police
"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately." - CK
He got busted about his true feelings about police and went with the “I have friends who are black ... I mean are cops” excuse. How do you explain him wishing cop killer and black panther Joanne chesimard happy birthday on Twitter and donating money to a radical group that is named after her in her honor assatas daughters. This guy is a radical and leader and inspiration of the kneelers. If the media would show who this guy and his indoctrinating radical girlfriend really were instead of propping him up as some kind of civil rights leader this movement would be even more unpopular
Why is this clown not banned if Klaatu is?
Banned for pointing out verifiable truths about what a radical CK is - ok then. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable
Nothing about your idiocy makes me uncomfortable. Disappointed? Maybe. Sad? Yes. Uncomfortable? Not a chance.
You kneel because that promise has been broken.
I stand to affirm my belief that all are created equal, and to fight alongside you for that promise.
You kneel because too few stand with you.
I stand because we can be better.
You kneel to remind us to be better.
I stand to honor all that have fought and died so that we may be free.
You kneel because not all of us are.
I stand because I can.
You kneel for those who can't.
I stand to defend your right to kneel.
You kneel to defend my right to stand.
I stand because I love this country.
You kneel because you love it too.
written by: Andrew Freborg
Shortly after the war Gold Star Mothers were sent via Ocean Liner to visit the graves of their sons (and see France etc).
For some reason the mothers were segregated whereas the sons were all buried together.
(My grandfather was in the medical corps,tie in for me).
In any case. Every one of the African American Gold Star Mothers waved the flag in the picture they showed. The. Flag.
Shortly after the war Gold Star Mothers were sent via Ocean Liner to visit the graves of their sons (and see France etc).
For some reason the mothers were segregated whereas the sons were all buried together.
(My grandfather was in the medical corps,tie in for me).
In any case. Every one of the African American Gold Star Mothers waved the flag in the picture they showed. The. Flag.
It's almost as if Black people can love the flag and love the country. Gasp!
is just you patiently and without implication bringing the conversation back to the debate at hand?
And, obviously those mothers had a double struggle, that war being far, far worse, than this one, those days far far far harder in terms of identity, than now, and yet they still stood by the flag like rocks.
So, by definition, what they had been through far beyond the scope of what you alluded to
and far beyond what either of us has probably dealt with, and thank God for that. Because if we think we have reasons....please. Not compared to them we didn't.
So, no, it's definitely not a simple
'duh, of course they did'
moment. Really? Have you lost a child in war?
Imagine the conflicting emotions for any parent!
No. You missed this entirely. It's not just flags...it's the context, a context that dwarfs anything we have direct reference to. WW1.
Seriously not that easy. You cannot just say,
" duh. Of course they did, nothing to see here, easy obvious thing that's normal'
It wasn't. It was a:
"for any parent as hard as fuck moment and -add in- what they may have had to deal with just to live in USA circa 1918" , moment.
And I think all that context is fairly obvious not needing to have been spelled out in the first instance.
It's just too easy to read from that snark script, and people aren't taking it.
Look at Steven Fry. He's far from a conservative and far from 'normative' or establishment type. But his dignity in that debate made Dawkins look like a wet swamp rat chewing on a dead baby's oatmeal.
Also, a quick word of advice: re-read your comments before you post them.
That statement of yours couldn't be further from the truth. It's clear that you are well-read and well-versed in world events, but time and time again, your posts are incomprehensible. I"m not sure if this is an intentional troll job to screw with posters or how you express your thoughts, but what you are hearing in your head is not what is coming out in print.