If I were Mara and/or Shurmur. On the morning of a game I would put the names of the 46 players to be active that day into a hat and have one of the team captains pick from it. Whatever name is picked, that player gets to decide whether or not the team will remain in the locker room for the anthem or will stand at attention for it on the sideline.
This accomplishes three things:
1) First and foremost being that whatever it is they do, they do as a team.
2) The decision is made by a player (not someone from ownership or management).
3) The choice of player is random (and all inclusive of those who would be standing or sitting that day), so fairness in representation is assured. And given that it is a 16 game season, the sample set should be large enough that all demographic/socio-economic viewpoints are given a say).
Simple, it's tradition. Plays a big role in American sports.
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
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In comment 13975916 Beer Man said:
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
Apologies. Next time I will type a little slower so that you can understand the point of the post.
I doubt there's anything you could say that I wouldn't understand, but the point is, they didn't play the anthem at your workplace. Nor did they do so in a way that was completely unrelated to your job or your company's core competencies.
Everything else is pure conjecture.
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In comment 13975927 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13975916 Beer Man said:
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And like other businesses they exist to make money. As such they have brands and reputations to maintain, and go to great lengths to protect them. Part of which is staying on the sidelines (pun intended) of controversial issues. What that means for employees of the NFL (including players), is that they check-in their activism activates, protects, etc. at the door, as the workplace is not the place for that. It’s the same for all of us who have jobs. Use your job as a sounding board for any cause, and if it results in some of your customers taking their business elsewhere, I’ll bet you dollar for donuts that you will have a higher survival rate if caught sleeping with the boss’s wife.
I worked for Ross Perot for almost 20 years, if I had knelt during the National Anthem while in the workplace, my job would have been terminated before the Anthem finished.
Ross Perot played the anthem for employees at the start of every work day? Is that what makes that name drop significant?
Apologies. Next time I will type a little slower so that you can understand the point of the post.
I doubt there's anything you could say that I wouldn't understand, but the point is, they didn't play the anthem at your workplace. Nor did they do so in a way that was completely unrelated to your job or your company's core competencies.
Everything else is pure conjecture.
Kind of like this? - ( New Window )
What do you think happened to the guy at the 1:30 mark of the video? - ( New Window )
A bunch of guys that have their head squarely up their ass.
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So does Doug Baldwin. So does Malcolm Jenkins. So do a host of others. Must come across as guys you'd want your sons to grow up to be like.
A bunch of guys that have their head squarely up their ass.
How so? Whether you agree with the way they feel, each of those three has been active in not only speaking up, but also doing something about it in a way that at least has the potential to affect positive change.
What about them makes you say they have their head up their ass?
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
Except the players aren't doing any speaking about this while they're on the clock. They're engaging in silent protest. That, in turn, prompts the feeding frenzy media to cover them and the issue that they're protesting. They're not interrupting the game to get on their soapbox.
I don't even know why I'm bothering to engage you.
This is the fundamental issue, IMO.
The league stands for playing football, providing entertainment, and generating profit. Anything else is a value that you've assigned to them, not one they actually stand for. Even the idea of having the players being involved in the flag ceremony and anthem is part of the revenue model for the NFL (and one that has only been done the way it currently is, since 2009). It's not some altruistic show of patriotism by the league.
I paid to see singing and dancing cat people ffs!
I pay to watch football too. Which is why I think they should do away with the pregame anthem and flag ceremony entirely.
Playing in the NFL is a privilege. If you think that anyone is granted the right to play I think that you are confused.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
Playing in the NFL is a privilege. If you think that anyone is granted the right to play I think that you are confused.
By that token, having ANY career is a privilege. That does not give your employer the right to impose upon you an infringement of your rights for activities which do not fall within your core competencies. Nor does it allow a labor organization with a collectively bargained agreement with their employees to unilaterally impose changes in policy without bargaining with the labor union.
I'm sorry that this doesn't fit the way you emotionally feel about this, but that doesn't make you correct.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
As someone who believes in the players (and all people) having a right to observe the anthem and flag ceremony in any way they choose - as an example as the most basic American freedom about the most symbolic American rite - there is absolutely no chance that I would stop watching if they banned kneeling. I think it will get pretty ugly if they do that, but my reasons for watching football have nothing to do with a 90 second ceremony that has zero to do with the game itself.
Support the players. The fans who just want to watch football will stick around. The ones butthurt because some politicians blew a whistle to divide this country will come back eventually.
This is just stupid. And they will lose other fans because of it.
NBA handled this right.
Granted, ball game, alcohol, bleachers, all condsidered. Is this really a matter to come to blows over? I find it fascinating how some just lose their head over a personal choice another makes with literally no impact on them.
Preference, politics, etc. aside I can't ever imagine getting into a fight over something like that.
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In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
It is a weird paradox. People offended by it are ridiculous. I get thinking it’s stupid or wrong but to be angered by it is pretty lame. That said so many people like that exist that I understand why the nfl feels the need to take action to keep revenue on the up.
I’m curious to see if people on the other side will stop watching if kneeling is ever banned.
As someone who believes in the players (and all people) having a right to observe the anthem and flag ceremony in any way they choose - as an example as the most basic American freedom about the most symbolic American rite - there is absolutely no chance that I would stop watching if they banned kneeling. I think it will get pretty ugly if they do that, but my reasons for watching football have nothing to do with a 90 second ceremony that has zero to do with the game itself.
Same.
History shows that when people don't care or as we've seen on this and previous threads, think it's a non-existent issue, then it's never the right cause, time, venue, or person to lead a protest. Frank Luntz, hardly a liberal, tweeted last year 3 questions from Gallup polls taken during the early to mid 1960's. 60+% of Americans were against sit-in's at segregated lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes (the description of the times). Two months after the Civil Rights Act was signed, 70+% of Americans thought demonstrations by Negroes should stop even though all of their demands (in the areas of jobs, housing, and schools) hadn't been met. Black people protesting has never been "popular", regardless of where and when it takes place. To act like the venue is the only issue here is disingenuous. To pretend the problem is the flaws of Colin Kaepernick is disingenuous. Then there's the next step of pretending this is all a media hoax/figment of people's imaginations. Read the Pew Research Center poll of police officers from January 2017... even black police officers don't think this is a figment of people's imaginations. Heck, the only thing an overwhelming majority of the officers agreed on is that those who consistently do a poor job aren't held accountable.
By week 2 of the the 2017 season, only 8 players were still kneeling across 32 teams (according to ESPN, who was keeping a running tally). Had the NFL left it alone, the number surely would've gone down from there. Even people who felt strongly about the cause weren't going to quit their jobs even as it was clear Colin Kaepernick was being denied a job over his decision to kneel. Only when Trump decided to call CK and other players who kneeled "sons of bitches", did the number of players kneeling go back up. The Malcolm Jenkins, Doug Baldwins, Chris Longs, and Eric Reids of the sport don't deserve to be denigrated that way, yet no NFL owners would stand up for them. That lack of good faith/support (of individuals even if disagreeing with the kneeling) is what makes it difficult for these players to do what NBA players have done when it comes to not kneeling. (It's not about having a set rule.)
I agree with one of the early posters who wrote let the protesters protest and let those who want to stop watching the NFL because of it stop watching, It would have all blown over eventually but now they just created a new problem.
Spot On!
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When representing the NFL one should represent what the league stands for. (No pun intended) If players want to protest something they should do it on their own time and not in uniform. Abusing the stage that the league gives you is wrong. Snacks and all of the pissing & moaning ingrates should just STFU and play football.
Spot On!
Not surprising.
Granted, ball game, alcohol, bleachers, all condsidered. Is this really a matter to come to blows over? I find it fascinating how some just lose their head over a personal choice another makes with literally no impact on them.
Preference, politics, etc. aside I can't ever imagine getting into a fight over something like that.
Ironically, the hat rules did not historically apply to women. But then again, most of these "patriots" probably wear a baseball cap at the dinner table. But they should definitely be our voices on the subject of etiquette.
History shows that when people don't care or as we've seen on this and previous threads, think it's a non-existent issue, then it's never the right cause, time, venue, or person to lead a protest. Frank Luntz, hardly a liberal, tweeted last year 3 questions from Gallup polls taken during the early to mid 1960's. 60+% of Americans were against sit-in's at segregated lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes (the description of the times). Two months after the Civil Rights Act was signed, 70+% of Americans thought demonstrations by Negroes should stop even though all of their demands (in the areas of jobs, housing, and schools) hadn't been met. Black people protesting has never been "popular", regardless of where and when it takes place. To act like the venue is the only issue here is disingenuous. To pretend the problem is the flaws of Colin Kaepernick is disingenuous. Then there's the next step of pretending this is all a media hoax/figment of people's imaginations. Read the Pew Research Center poll of police officers from January 2017... even black police officers don't think this is a figment of people's imaginations. Heck, the only thing an overwhelming majority of the officers agreed on is that those who consistently do a poor job aren't held accountable.
By week 2 of the the 2017 season, only 8 players were still kneeling across 32 teams (according to ESPN, who was keeping a running tally). Had the NFL left it alone, the number surely would've gone down from there. Even people who felt strongly about the cause weren't going to quit their jobs even as it was clear Colin Kaepernick was being denied a job over his decision to kneel. Only when Trump decided to call CK and other players who kneeled "sons of bitches", did the number of players kneeling go back up. The Malcolm Jenkins, Doug Baldwins, Chris Longs, and Eric Reids of the sport don't deserve to be denigrated that way, yet no NFL owners would stand up for them. That lack of good faith/support (of individuals even if disagreeing with the kneeling) is what makes it difficult for these players to do what NBA players have done when it comes to not kneeling. (It's not about having a set rule.)
This is an excellent post. I agree completely.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
Because they either claim it doesn't exist, therefore you're just protesting America itself, or they like police brutality and want more of it.
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All you in favor of kneeling during the anthem to protest your cause would you be ok with a player kneeling to protest illegal immigrants or kneeling to protest abortions or transgender bathroom rights? Would you say the same thing that iits their right and they shouldn’t be criticized or boycotted?
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
So by that logic the kneelers are protesting the police and military
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
That's some random woman they don't know who's the victim. So no harm no foul.
When they see someone protesting racial inequity (be it by kneeling during the anthem, marching in the street, or posting on a forum), then they feel victimized - because victims of racial inequity should just be quiet, accept their fate, be grateful for the privilege of breathing (at least until a random police officer decides to deny them of it) and deny anything is unequal.
Tim Tebow knelt during the anthem IIRC and no one had a problem with it because he wasn't protesting racial inequality. It's not about the anthem.
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In comment 13976111 Ryan in Albany said:
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people who could enjoy football and not be offended while the NFL employed convicted felons now cannot bear to watch it because it's totally offensive when some players choose to peacefully protest the anthem because of police brutality, which has nothing to do with disrespecting the flag.
Then again, they beat their gf/wife on their own time, so it's okay apparently.
That's some random woman they don't know who's the victim. So no harm no foul.
When they see someone protesting racial inequity (be it by kneeling during the anthem, marching in the street, or posting on a forum), then they feel victimized - because victims of racial inequity should just be quiet, accept their fate, be grateful for the privilege of breathing (at least until a random police officer decides to deny them of it) and deny anything is unequal.
Tim Tebow knelt during the anthem IIRC and no one had a problem with it because he wasn't protesting racial inequality. It's not about the anthem.
Tim Tebow never knelt during the anthem.
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In comment 13976377 giant24 said:
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All you in favor of kneeling during the anthem to protest your cause would you be ok with a player kneeling to protest illegal immigrants or kneeling to protest abortions or transgender bathroom rights? Would you say the same thing that iits their right and they shouldn’t be criticized or boycotted?
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
You do realize many, if not all football teams have had police bands, officers and color guards present the flag and perform the anthem, and that is a major factor in using that forum to protest, right?
If a team invited the abortion doctors quartet to sing the anthem, them maybe this would make any sense.
So by that logic the kneelers are protesting the police and military
The owners have opened the door for the anthem to represent more than the tenants of patriotism, liberty and honoring the military by involving law enforcement.
If veterans and active military are offended by the protest, I absolutely respect and see that as an intellectually honest and sound view point.
If players want to use the forum to express their liberty, the often forgetten other fundamental tenant of Key's verses, I respect and see that as an equally intellectually honest and sound view point.
No protest should be allowed period. Stand or be fined just like the NBA.
The answer to this is pretty obvious - those of us who are okay with the kneeling are okay with it partially because there's agreement that there's an important issue to raise awareness about, but mostly because kneeling for 3 minutes before a game is such an inocuous thing that even if it were for an unjust cause that it wouldn't be much of a bother.
But really, this shouldn't even be to the point of making moral equivalency with other political topics. Even you're someone who doesn't believe police brutality is a real issue, why have a such strong reaction against someone who does? Is there political counter position to this - does anyone actually think that we need MORE police brutality?
Link - ( New Window )
We need a lot of things changed in this country, but I'll be damned if I want it all shoved down my throat every time I turn around and especially when it interferes with my time watching the games.
These players can go support whatever cause they want on their own time and with their own money. We don't want to hear it. Pick another way to support your cause if you really believe that police are targeting black folks systematically and nobody cares enough to fight the system. Personally, I find the notion to be extremely unfounded and basically ridiculous. It is my right to have that opinion, wrong or right.
The players who kneel have a right to their opinions too. The NFL doesn't have to agree, nor do they have to let the players abuse the stage they've been given which really was meant for playing football. Nobody cares what the players think, the same as nobody cares what I think. Nobody cares what the owners think either, but they are not promoting police brutality by ending these protests. They are simply trying to get everyone's focus back on the games and not these bullshit childish protests that accomplish nothing, distract the fans, and fail to ever affect any situation in any sort of positive way.