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NFT: Doing some digging on my family history

Milton : 6/5/2018 4:31 pm
Apparently my grandmother was from a town in Russia called Zwonetz (as written on her naturalization papers in 1926, but written as "Swanic, Russia" on her arrival in 1909). I can't find either Zwonetz or Swanic on a map of Russia (but there's a Zwonitz in Germany that was founded by Slavs).

Is there a way other than Google Maps for finding the town on a map? It may have just been shtetl.
Borders and shit got moved around after WWI  
JonC : 6/5/2018 4:35 pm : link
and I know sometimes immigrants would write things like Russia instead of Prussia on official documents. In other words, hard to know for sure sometimes.
and spellings were often lost in translation  
JonC : 6/5/2018 4:37 pm : link
and misrecorded.
Milton  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 4:43 pm : link
Zwonitz would NOT have been in the Russian Empire in 1909. So it must be another town.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 4:46 pm : link
Pre-WWII, there was a sizeable German ethnic minority in Russia. The town is definitely German sounding. Stalin ethnically cleansed the Germans during and after WWII. It's quite possible that there was such a village at one point in Russia and then it was eradicated.

It depends on where you think the town may have been in Russia. But there were Germans as deep as the Volga River (aka the Volga Germans)... they no longer exist.
also  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 4:48 pm : link
when I did my family history, there were often mispellings on documents... either the official writing down the information may have misheard/wrote down the name wrong... or she may have written it down incorrectly.
Thanks, guys!  
Milton : 6/5/2018 4:54 pm : link
Zwonitz, Germany was formerly part of Prussia, so it's possible, maybe even likely that that is where she was from.
RE: Thanks, guys!  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13984179 Milton said:
Quote:
Zwonitz, Germany was formerly part of Prussia, so it's possible, maybe even likely that that is where she was from.


If you're looking at Ancestry.com or FamilySearch.org, look at the actual document. If it is written down as Prussia, then you definitely have your answer. Zwonitz is in Saxony, which was part of Prussia. In 1909, Prussia was part of the German Empire, but Prussians would probably have still called their country Prussia.
I guess it also could be as Eric was saying...  
Milton : 6/5/2018 4:57 pm : link
A Russian town of ethnic Germans that was purged during/after WW2.
RE: also  
mrvax : 6/5/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13984168 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
when I did my family history, there were often mispellings on documents... either the official writing down the information may have misheard/wrote down the name wrong... or she may have written it down incorrectly.


I've run into this looking over US census documents.
RE: also  
Joey in VA : 6/5/2018 5:03 pm : link
In comment 13984168 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
when I did my family history, there were often mispellings on documents... either the official writing down the information may have misheard/wrote down the name wrong... or she may have written it down incorrectly.
Funny you mention that, my surname was changed from it's original to what it is now because my great grandfather couldn't read or write so he tried saying it and we dropped a consonant and he apparently didn't give a Tuppany f-ck. Now our name is meaningless and in Latin it actually had meaning.
I have relatives  
Pete in MD : 6/5/2018 5:07 pm : link
on my Dad's side that we think were also ethnically Russian but came to America from Germany.
Joey in VA  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 5:07 pm : link
I've actually seen a couple of instances where the headstone had the wrong spelling (if I didn't have the documentation to back it up, I would have been convinced it was not the same person).

"Hey, you spelled his name wrong!"

"I can fix it, but it will take another week and it will cost you $10."

"Oh well."
RE: and spellings were often lost in translation  
njm : 6/5/2018 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13984155 JonC said:
Quote:
and misrecorded.


"Vito Andolini?"

"Vito Corleone"
RE: Joey in VA  
Joey in VA : 6/5/2018 5:11 pm : link
In comment 13984190 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've actually seen a couple of instances where the headstone had the wrong spelling (if I didn't have the documentation to back it up, I would have been convinced it was not the same person).

"Hey, you spelled his name wrong!"

"I can fix it, but it will take another week and it will cost you $10."

"Oh well."
Now you see why I am a stickler for spelling and grammar on here, you can't leave out letters!
This is a common issue.  
81_Great_Dane : 6/5/2018 6:17 pm : link
I have it in my family tree. My great-grandfather reported his birthplace as "Hoskin" in "Russia." We know his family emigrated from Kakhovka, Ukraine. We think they had roots in present-day Moldova. The family name indicates roots in Saxony. They probably moved south to the Black Sea area when the Pale of Settlement was opened to Jews.

But we have no idea what "Hoskin" means or what he was trying to say.

His son, my grandfather, once told a census taker his birthplace was Kiev. We're about 99% sure that's false. Kakhovka is near Odessa. but Kiev was in the news at the time they were taking the census. My mother thought he was probably just naming a place that people would recognize.

On the other hand, I was able to trace another branch of the family through a document on Ancestry and some internet sleuthing. That branch came to the U.S. through Canada and we've never been able to find a damn thing about where they came from, except that my grandfather was considered a "Galitzianer." (That indicates southeastern Europe, more or less.)

But it turned out that Ancestry had a transcript of the citizenship hearing for one of my grandfather's uncles. In those days, the citizenship process was run by the states, and NY State ran hearings in New York City. The uncle had to bring a character witness, who told the court "I live near him, and I knew him in the old country."

Turned out that guy's descendants were doing their own genealogy research, and while I was never able to trace my GG-Uncle, I was able to trace his character witness to a town in southeastern Poland: Ulanow.

And as it turned out, my father remembered that one of his forebears in that branch of the tree was buried in a Brooklyn cemetery for people from Ulanow, or that had a section for Ulanow people, or something. So we have finally traced that part of the clan to Ulanow. Still can't find any trace of them from the scant local records available online.

If anybody has any thoughts about what a native Yiddish and Russian speaker might have meant by "Hoskin," I'd love to hear them.
81  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 6:33 pm : link
As soon as you said Galitzianer, I thought Galacia. A quick search shows that Galitzianer means Galacian Jews. Galacia has changed hands a ton of times Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ukraine, Poland, etc. But you have a decent idea where from by the term Galitzianer.
RE: RE: Thanks, guys!  
JonC : 6/5/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13984183 Eric from BBI said:
[quote] In comment 13984179 Milton said:


Quote:


Zwonitz, Germany was formerly part of Prussia, so it's possible, maybe even likely that that is where she was from.



If you're looking at Ancestry.com or FamilySearch.org, look at the actual document. If it is written down as Prussia, then you definitely have your answer. Zwonitz is in Saxony, which was part of Prussia. In 1909, Prussia was part of the German Empire, but Prussians would probably have still called their country Prussia. [/quote

Yep, I had ancestors from Posen, Germany and I've seen several different forms where they wrote down Germany, Prussia, and even Russia and the American officials didn't seem to know better. ]
JonC  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/5/2018 8:09 pm : link
Very historical area... now part of Poland.
Eric  
JonC : 6/5/2018 8:52 pm : link
Definitely seems so, but difficult to find accurate records.
At least you didn’t find out  
giantsFC : 6/6/2018 10:45 am : link
You had distant relations to the Golden State Killer. That would have made for some uncomfortable moments the past year.
RE: RE: Joey in VA  
dorgan : 6/6/2018 10:50 am : link
In comment 13984196 Joey in VA said:
Quote:


Now you see why I am a stickler for spelling and grammar on here, you can't leave out letters!


No one will EVER leave the e out of Joey in describing your miserable ass.

They did that name shortening shit to lots of immigrants back then  
jcn56 : 6/6/2018 10:56 am : link
My surname would've been about 10 letters long if the immigration agent at Ellis Island didn't tell my great grandfather 'ok, pick the five letters you like and off you so'.

I'm guessing they would have had a field day today. Either that, or we'd have a lot more Sanjay Smith's.
RE: 81  
81_Great_Dane : 6/6/2018 4:39 pm : link
In comment 13984236 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
As soon as you said Galitzianer, I thought Galacia. A quick search shows that Galitzianer means Galacian Jews. Galacia has changed hands a ton of times Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ukraine, Poland, etc. But you have a decent idea where from by the term Galitzianer.
True! We knew the one grandfather was a Galiitzianer, and we know roughly where Galacia was, but beyond that, had no idea where his family was from. It was his mother's side we were able to trade to Ulanow. His father's family was probably from Ukraine but we have no way (yet) to trace him.

Both my grandfathers were Galitzianers, while both my grandmothers were Litvaks. The Litvak-Galitzianer divide was a thing. Miraculously, only one of those unions ended in divorce. That grandmother spoke sneeringly of her Galitzianer ex-husband. The other pair stayed married until my grandfather died at 89, though they didn't really get along.
81_Great_Dane  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/6/2018 5:29 pm : link
I'm sure you know this but the Jews of Galacia and Lithuania were all but wiped out in the Holocaust by the Einsatzgruppen. Thankfully your ancestors avoided that fate.
My grandfather (who married my grandmother from Zwonetz)...  
Milton : 6/6/2018 7:04 pm : link
...was from Bar, Ukraine...which he listed as Bar, Russia on his naturalization papers. Is it possible that Great-Dane's great grandparent was from Bar?
Quote:
Jews began to settle in Bar in the first half of the sixteenth century, making the community one of the oldest in Ukraine. A small trade outpost named Row, in the 16th century, Polish Queen Bona Sforza founded a fortress above the river. In 1540, Polish King Sigismund I the Old granted city rights to the nearby town. After 1922 the city was part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and since 1991 in independent Ukraine. Located on the Rov River in the Vinnytsia Oblast (province) of western Ukraine, Bar is the administrative center of Barskyi Raion and part of the historic region of Podolia. 1900 Jewish population: 5,773. Located now in Horodok Raion, west of L'viv and in the Podolia Province 1890 - 1925 on the Rov River in the Vinnytsia Oblast (province) of central Ukraine. administrative center of the Bar Raion (district) and part of the historic region of Podolia.
Milton  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/6/2018 7:26 pm : link
L'viv (Lemberg under the Austrians, Lwow under the Poles) was the most important city in Galacia. Your relatives were definitely in the same area.
RE: RE: Thanks, guys!  
TJ : 6/6/2018 7:44 pm : link
In comment 13984183 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13984179 Milton said:


Quote:
In 1909, Prussia was part of the German Empire, but Prussians would probably have still called their country Prussia.


Eric some would say the German Empire was part of Prussia!
Tracing my wife's family we see similar problems  
TJ : 6/6/2018 7:53 pm : link
They were Slavs whose countries had been absorbed into the austro-hungarian empire. Their paperwork routinely listed Austria or Hungary for origin but they were actually Poles, Slovaks, or Slovenes.
RE: Tracing my wife's family we see similar problems  
Milton : 6/6/2018 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13985029 TJ said:
Quote:
They were Slavs whose countries had been absorbed into the austro-hungarian empire. Their paperwork routinely listed Austria or Hungary for origin but they were actually Poles, Slovaks, or Slovenes.
I think I have that problem from the other side of the family, where I had been told in the 1970's that my mother's mother was from Austria and then later told in the 1990's that she was from Poland. I'm guessing it's like you said and that she was from Poland.

p.s.--The irony for me is that I was told as a child that I was 3/4's Russian and 1/4 Austrian (none of my grandparents were born in America) and the truth is likely that they were neither Russian, nor Austrian. Instead they were definitely Ukrainian, probably Polish, and possibly German. Of course the reality is that they weren't Russian, Austrian, Ukrainian, Polish, German, or of any other Eurasian heritage, they were Jews from the shtetls of central/eastern Europe. But it would be nice to trace them to the actual villages they were from.
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