"Players won’t truly win or lose jobs until training camp, which opens in late July. But for now, here are three players whose roles have stuck out as more prominent than expected so far this offseason.
THE UNDER-THE-RADAR ROOKIE: B.J. HILL, DEFENSIVE TACKLE
Hill, 22, the second of the Giants’ two third-round picks at 69th overall out of N.C. State, not only has taken plenty of first-string defensive snaps; Giants defensive coordinator James Bettcher at times has shown the three-man front of his 3-4 defensive scheme to be, from left to right: the 6-3, 311-pound Hill, the 6-3, 341-pound Damon Harrison and the 6-3, 317-pound Dalvin Tomlinson. That is 969 pounds of man loading up to stop the run."
Really excited about Hill .... and his progress/growth as a Pro.
In response to a question about where the pass rush will come from Â
Art Stapleton (@art_stapleton)
6/7/18, 5:58 PM
You're going to have to change your idea of pass rusher in odd fronts. Tomlinson has the ability to be disruptive with Snacks as an anchor. They hope Hill does, too.
Nearly 1,000 pounds of player in Hill-Snacks-Tomlinson front, and stopping the run in base is huge. We'll see.
I feel like moving to a 34 front allows so much more flexibility Â
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
RE: RE: I feel like moving to a 34 front allows so much more flexibility Â
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
It's often as simple as the preference of the head coach at the time.
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
It's often as simple as the preference of the head coach at the time.
That is what I thought ... whoever was the DC probably made the call. But, after all the success they had with the 3-4 I wasn't sure if there might have been other factors.
It might have something to do with LT’s retirement Â
“It was the worst loss Lawrence Taylor endured as a member of the New York Giants. In fact, since the franchise was established in 1925, the 44-3 shellacking administered by the San Francisco 49ers last January in the NFC playoffs was the third-worst loss in Giants history. It didn't seem right that after 13 brilliant seasons, Taylor's last game in the NFL should be such an abomination.
But not long after the Giants reached their Candlestick Park locker room, Taylor ended all speculation about what his future plans were. He announced that he was retiring from the NFL, effective immediately. A few days later, coach Dan Reeves his recuperation from the defeat nearly complete began to assess what life would be like without Taylor. "I don't know how you replace a Lawrence Taylor," Reeves said. So rather than try to think of a way, Reeves opted for the easier alternative change the defensive scheme. The Giants have scrapped their 3-4 defense and will go with a 4-3 this season, because even though Taylor may have been slowing down the past couple of years, Reeves knew there was no one on the roster or on the free-agent market who could step in and give the Giants the emotional and physical boost Taylor gave them. "We'll have to change our scheme a little bit," Reeves said. "You can't attack it the same way." Having in the last two years lost Taylor, Pepper Johnson, Steve DeOssie and Carl Banks the starting linebackers in New York's Super Bowl XXV victory over Buffalo the Giants now have better players on their front line, so Reeves reasons that playing four linemen would be more productive than playing four linebackers. Keith Hamilton and Mike Stra-han will play the ends and Stacy Dillard and Erik Howard will line up at the tackles. Michael Brooks will play middle linebacker and will be flanked by forme Bill Carlton Bailey (who led the Giants with 136 tackles last season) and Corey Miller.”
“For the Giants, that used to be the norm. From 1976-90, the Giants always had at least one linebacker in the Pro Bowl, an incredible 15-year stretch that few teams have matched or ever will match.
"I took it all for granted," said the former Giants quarterback and current NBC football analyst Phil Simms, who played with Taylor, Carson, Van Pelt, Banks, Johnson and Reasons. "I look back and say, 'Wow, they were so good.' I do the same with the coaching staff. What a terrific staff we had under Parcells. And we got hot with the draft. Every linebacker we picked was kicking butt."
Now the Giants are in the middle of a Pro Bowl drought at the position. The team has not had a linebacker in the Pro Bowl since 1990. Only once in the history of the organization have the Giants had a linebacking Pro Bowl drought of at least five years -- that was from 1962-75. Van Pelt broke the streak in 1976, making the first of five appearances.
What's gone wrong? The reasons are complex and varied...
"In all fairness to the Giants, the linebackers over all are down," Madden said. "There isn't a lot of talent there now."
Consider this: 17 of the 30 teams have chosen a linebacker in the first round during the 1990's, and of those picks, only San Diego's Junior Seau has approached greatness.
Consider this, too: In the 1980's, when the 3-4 defense was in its golden period, 22 of the 28 teams at some point picked a linebacker in the first round. By comparison, in the 1990's, as teams began to go to four-man fronts and three linebackers, 24 of the 30 teams have used first-round selections for defensive linemen. San Francisco picked a lineman in the first round in 1991, took two more in 1993 and took another one in 1994. Linebackers just haven't been selected as much in the first round in the 1990's because the pickings have been slimmer and the times have changed. (The Giants -- who went from a 3-4 to a 4-3 two seasons ago -- took Banks and Taylor in the first round in the 1980's, but have not picked any linebacker in the first round in the 1990's.)
Giants General Manager George Young disagrees that the overall linebacking talent has suffered this decade and attributes the lack of impact linebackers more to changing defenses. "When Lawrence came out of college everybody was into playing four linebackers," Young said. "Now it's three."
“It was the worst loss Lawrence Taylor endured as a member of the New York Giants. In fact, since the franchise was established in 1925, the 44-3 shellacking administered by the San Francisco 49ers last January in the NFC playoffs was the third-worst loss in Giants history. It didn't seem right that after 13 brilliant seasons, Taylor's last game in the NFL should be such an abomination.
But not long after the Giants reached their Candlestick Park locker room, Taylor ended all speculation about what his future plans were. He announced that he was retiring from the NFL, effective immediately. A few days later, coach Dan Reeves his recuperation from the defeat nearly complete began to assess what life would be like without Taylor. "I don't know how you replace a Lawrence Taylor," Reeves said. So rather than try to think of a way, Reeves opted for the easier alternative change the defensive scheme. The Giants have scrapped their 3-4 defense and will go with a 4-3 this season, because even though Taylor may have been slowing down the past couple of years, Reeves knew there was no one on the roster or on the free-agent market who could step in and give the Giants the emotional and physical boost Taylor gave them. "We'll have to change our scheme a little bit," Reeves said. "You can't attack it the same way." Having in the last two years lost Taylor, Pepper Johnson, Steve DeOssie and Carl Banks the starting linebackers in New York's Super Bowl XXV victory over Buffalo the Giants now have better players on their front line, so Reeves reasons that playing four linemen would be more productive than playing four linebackers. Keith Hamilton and Mike Stra-han will play the ends and Stacy Dillard and Erik Howard will line up at the tackles. Michael Brooks will play middle linebacker and will be flanked by forme Bill Carlton Bailey (who led the Giants with 136 tackles last season) and Corey Miller.”
Thanks DD - nice find ("Rochester Democrat" ... who knew?). Every thing in here that Reeves said makes sense.
Nice ring to it Milton. I bet it get's more popular around the holidays (The 3 Kings - from the song) especially if the DL is playing well. The media dept. should be able to come up with some kind of tie in slogan for a poster...?
I will be over here in the corner .... shutting up.
You need at least one of the DTs to generate a pass rush like the 49ers had a few years ago with Justin Smith. I’m hoping that is Hill. He doesn’t have to be Reggie White but Giants need him to display some inside quickness to open up lanes for the blitzes
In other words a 4-3 DT who is playing DE in a 3-4
Also, it is fairly remarkable how quickly Giants conveyed their defensive personnel to a 3-4. Key to me is Vernon. I know he will play DE in the hybrid 4-3 formations but can he rush the passer without his hand on the ground?
They couldn't fix everything in 1 offseason: Gettleman did a remarkable job rebuilding the OL, LB and RBs.
They will have to live and die by the blitz to generate pressure. OV will be legit in the Chandler Jones elephant spot. Ogletree is an outstanding blitzer. Lorenzo Carter was known as the best blitzer on a Georgia D which included Leonard Floyd and Roquan Smith. Goodson has shown some physicality downhill. Landon Collins is one of the best blitzers in the league.
We've heard he "always sends 5" so it will be the 3 Hogs up front + 2 of these excellent blitzers at any given time.
Hopefully, it's enough to be disruptive but I expect a pass rusher to be a top priority next offseason.
In other words a 4-3 DT who is playing DE in a 3-4
Also, it is fairly remarkable how quickly Giants conveyed their defensive personnel to a 3-4. Key to me is Vernon. I know he will play DE in the hybrid 4-3 formations but can he rush the passer without his hand on the ground?
It's something he's done before, so he's not going into it from zero.
The thing with the 3-4 front that I think doesn’t get talked Â
About is what changes are there when they go into nickel and dime? You play a pass heavy team that runs a lot of 3 and 4 wr sets, which player(s) are coming off the field for the nickel and dime cbs, and how does the front change/ would it still even be considered a 3-4 front at that point.
Expect single gaps to switch around even in the big base, which I love; Hill,Harrison,Tomlinson.
Expect lots of inside gap attacks by olbs, expect lots of crazy substitutions by the lighter ones such as Wynn, Mackenzie if healthy etc.
Attacking w 5.
So many variations. You can line up Hill and Tomlinson outside shoulder of the O Tackles snacks at zero, attack inside gaps with any of the olbs or etc. You can switch to 4/3 super heavy to one side and blitz the other. It's endless.
"Players won’t truly win or lose jobs until training camp, which opens in late July. But for now, here are three players whose roles have stuck out as more prominent than expected so far this offseason.
THE UNDER-THE-RADAR ROOKIE: B.J. HILL, DEFENSIVE TACKLE
Hill, 22, the second of the Giants’ two third-round picks at 69th overall out of N.C. State, not only has taken plenty of first-string defensive snaps; Giants defensive coordinator James Bettcher at times has shown the three-man front of his 3-4 defensive scheme to be, from left to right: the 6-3, 311-pound Hill, the 6-3, 341-pound Damon Harrison and the 6-3, 317-pound Dalvin Tomlinson. That is 969 pounds of man loading up to stop the run."
Really excited about Hill .... and his progress/growth as a Pro.
6/7/18, 5:58 PM
You're going to have to change your idea of pass rusher in odd fronts. Tomlinson has the ability to be disruptive with Snacks as an anchor. They hope Hill does, too.
Nearly 1,000 pounds of player in Hill-Snacks-Tomlinson front, and stopping the run in base is huge. We'll see.
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
Quote:
And variations in how you can defend an offense.
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
It's often as simple as the preference of the head coach at the time.
Quote:
In comment 13985965 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
And variations in how you can defend an offense.
TT - I was wondering why the Giants left the 3-4 to begin with? Was it just a coaching decision? ... or did colleges start to turn out better DL than LBs (available talent)?
Anybody have a theory ... or facts?
It's often as simple as the preference of the head coach at the time.
That is what I thought ... whoever was the DC probably made the call. But, after all the success they had with the 3-4 I wasn't sure if there might have been other factors.
SAL MAIORANA STAFF WRITER Rochester Democrat
“It was the worst loss Lawrence Taylor endured as a member of the New York Giants. In fact, since the franchise was established in 1925, the 44-3 shellacking administered by the San Francisco 49ers last January in the NFC playoffs was the third-worst loss in Giants history. It didn't seem right that after 13 brilliant seasons, Taylor's last game in the NFL should be such an abomination.
But not long after the Giants reached their Candlestick Park locker room, Taylor ended all speculation about what his future plans were. He announced that he was retiring from the NFL, effective immediately. A few days later, coach Dan Reeves his recuperation from the defeat nearly complete began to assess what life would be like without Taylor. "I don't know how you replace a Lawrence Taylor," Reeves said. So rather than try to think of a way, Reeves opted for the easier alternative change the defensive scheme. The Giants have scrapped their 3-4 defense and will go with a 4-3 this season, because even though Taylor may have been slowing down the past couple of years, Reeves knew there was no one on the roster or on the free-agent market who could step in and give the Giants the emotional and physical boost Taylor gave them. "We'll have to change our scheme a little bit," Reeves said. "You can't attack it the same way." Having in the last two years lost Taylor, Pepper Johnson, Steve DeOssie and Carl Banks the starting linebackers in New York's Super Bowl XXV victory over Buffalo the Giants now have better players on their front line, so Reeves reasons that playing four linemen would be more productive than playing four linebackers. Keith Hamilton and Mike Stra-han will play the ends and Stacy Dillard and Erik Howard will line up at the tackles. Michael Brooks will play middle linebacker and will be flanked by forme Bill Carlton Bailey (who led the Giants with 136 tackles last season) and Corey Miller.”
“For the Giants, that used to be the norm. From 1976-90, the Giants always had at least one linebacker in the Pro Bowl, an incredible 15-year stretch that few teams have matched or ever will match.
"I took it all for granted," said the former Giants quarterback and current NBC football analyst Phil Simms, who played with Taylor, Carson, Van Pelt, Banks, Johnson and Reasons. "I look back and say, 'Wow, they were so good.' I do the same with the coaching staff. What a terrific staff we had under Parcells. And we got hot with the draft. Every linebacker we picked was kicking butt."
Now the Giants are in the middle of a Pro Bowl drought at the position. The team has not had a linebacker in the Pro Bowl since 1990. Only once in the history of the organization have the Giants had a linebacking Pro Bowl drought of at least five years -- that was from 1962-75. Van Pelt broke the streak in 1976, making the first of five appearances.
What's gone wrong? The reasons are complex and varied...
"In all fairness to the Giants, the linebackers over all are down," Madden said. "There isn't a lot of talent there now."
Consider this: 17 of the 30 teams have chosen a linebacker in the first round during the 1990's, and of those picks, only San Diego's Junior Seau has approached greatness.
Consider this, too: In the 1980's, when the 3-4 defense was in its golden period, 22 of the 28 teams at some point picked a linebacker in the first round. By comparison, in the 1990's, as teams began to go to four-man fronts and three linebackers, 24 of the 30 teams have used first-round selections for defensive linemen. San Francisco picked a lineman in the first round in 1991, took two more in 1993 and took another one in 1994. Linebackers just haven't been selected as much in the first round in the 1990's because the pickings have been slimmer and the times have changed. (The Giants -- who went from a 3-4 to a 4-3 two seasons ago -- took Banks and Taylor in the first round in the 1980's, but have not picked any linebacker in the first round in the 1990's.)
Giants General Manager George Young disagrees that the overall linebacking talent has suffered this decade and attributes the lack of impact linebackers more to changing defenses. "When Lawrence came out of college everybody was into playing four linebackers," Young said. "Now it's three."
Link - ( New Window )
SAL MAIORANA STAFF WRITER Rochester Democrat
“It was the worst loss Lawrence Taylor endured as a member of the New York Giants. In fact, since the franchise was established in 1925, the 44-3 shellacking administered by the San Francisco 49ers last January in the NFC playoffs was the third-worst loss in Giants history. It didn't seem right that after 13 brilliant seasons, Taylor's last game in the NFL should be such an abomination.
But not long after the Giants reached their Candlestick Park locker room, Taylor ended all speculation about what his future plans were. He announced that he was retiring from the NFL, effective immediately. A few days later, coach Dan Reeves his recuperation from the defeat nearly complete began to assess what life would be like without Taylor. "I don't know how you replace a Lawrence Taylor," Reeves said. So rather than try to think of a way, Reeves opted for the easier alternative change the defensive scheme. The Giants have scrapped their 3-4 defense and will go with a 4-3 this season, because even though Taylor may have been slowing down the past couple of years, Reeves knew there was no one on the roster or on the free-agent market who could step in and give the Giants the emotional and physical boost Taylor gave them. "We'll have to change our scheme a little bit," Reeves said. "You can't attack it the same way." Having in the last two years lost Taylor, Pepper Johnson, Steve DeOssie and Carl Banks the starting linebackers in New York's Super Bowl XXV victory over Buffalo the Giants now have better players on their front line, so Reeves reasons that playing four linemen would be more productive than playing four linebackers. Keith Hamilton and Mike Stra-han will play the ends and Stacy Dillard and Erik Howard will line up at the tackles. Michael Brooks will play middle linebacker and will be flanked by forme Bill Carlton Bailey (who led the Giants with 136 tackles last season) and Corey Miller.”
Thanks DD - nice find ("Rochester Democrat" ... who knew?). Every thing in here that Reeves said makes sense.
Quote by Simms in the 2nd post -
"And we got hot with the draft. Every linebacker we picked was kicking butt."
They sure did lose their mojo .... : (
Nice ring to it Milton. I bet it get's more popular around the holidays (The 3 Kings - from the song) especially if the DL is playing well. The media dept. should be able to come up with some kind of tie in slogan for a poster...?
I will be over here in the corner .... shutting up.
Also, it is fairly remarkable how quickly Giants conveyed their defensive personnel to a 3-4. Key to me is Vernon. I know he will play DE in the hybrid 4-3 formations but can he rush the passer without his hand on the ground?
They couldn't fix everything in 1 offseason: Gettleman did a remarkable job rebuilding the OL, LB and RBs.
They will have to live and die by the blitz to generate pressure. OV will be legit in the Chandler Jones elephant spot. Ogletree is an outstanding blitzer. Lorenzo Carter was known as the best blitzer on a Georgia D which included Leonard Floyd and Roquan Smith. Goodson has shown some physicality downhill. Landon Collins is one of the best blitzers in the league.
We've heard he "always sends 5" so it will be the 3 Hogs up front + 2 of these excellent blitzers at any given time.
Hopefully, it's enough to be disruptive but I expect a pass rusher to be a top priority next offseason.
Also, it is fairly remarkable how quickly Giants conveyed their defensive personnel to a 3-4. Key to me is Vernon. I know he will play DE in the hybrid 4-3 formations but can he rush the passer without his hand on the ground?
It's something he's done before, so he's not going into it from zero.
Expect lots of inside gap attacks by olbs, expect lots of crazy substitutions by the lighter ones such as Wynn, Mackenzie if healthy etc.
Attacking w 5.
So many variations. You can line up Hill and Tomlinson outside shoulder of the O Tackles snacks at zero, attack inside gaps with any of the olbs or etc. You can switch to 4/3 super heavy to one side and blitz the other. It's endless.