I really am flummoxed about what direction they should take as an organization. I really really don't believe we should just tear it up and throw it away. How often do you have two legit ace pitches (deGrom/Syndergaard) - as well as two additional solid mid-level pitchers that are all relatively young (Matz/Wheeler) rounding out the rotation. Plus we have two very very solid set-up men (Gsellman/Lugo), two young talented outfield pieces (Confort/Nimmo) and shortstop who in theory could/should be a cornerstone piece. I understand we are getting significant underperformance from Conforto, but that generally is not a terrible core.
The problem is is we are getting almost no production ATL ALL from any of the money we have spent. Seriously, Cespedes/Bruce/Ramos/Vargas/Frazier/Blevins/Gonzalez/Reyes/Lagares/Swarzak all of whom should be at least solid major league players have absolutely shit the bed or have been injured. The only player that we're really paying and is performing is Cabrera and he has been ice cold recently.
I'm not going into the sandy bashing crowd, but the decision to load of on a lot of these players is looking more and more foolish by the day.
But what do we do? We're stuck with Bruce/Cespedes, and all the relievers we acuired last year haven't even been performing all that well in the minors.
We really need more depth across the board. And we need a Marquee offensive player that Cespdes doesn't seem to be able to be due to injuries.
These feels like early 2015 over again, question is, can we turn it around?
I would do the following moves immediately. Cut Reyes, call up Alonso/McNeil, move Cabrera to third and platoon him with Frazier, giving him and frazier fresher legs (those two players can still hit but seem to get worn out when overplayed)
I agree sending down conforto for a few weeks can be helpful, so let them do that and hope that bruce can get things going.
I am also looking forwad to getting TJ Rivera back to help provide a right handed pinch hitter and better depth than we have on the bench.
My hope is that within a month we can have a lineup of Alonso, McNeil, Rosario, Frazier/Cabrera, Cespdes/Bruce, Conforto/Nimmo, Plawecki/Meseraco.
At this point, we are basically forced into the addition by subtraction method, ridding ourselves of reyes/gonzalez I think can only be helpful.
He owners but Sandy needs to go IMO.
Its all about the behind the scenes stuff
He owners but Sandy needs to go IMO.
Agree that Sandy has to go. If they are going to rebuild they need a change at GM. Does anyone feel confidence in Alderson to get a good return in exchange for DeGrom/Thor?
Ricco has been a front office lieutenant under not two but three downturns.
It's like, 2 years of (relative) success, followed by 5-7 years of trash, repeat.
So yeah, I expect this team to be a winning team again some time around 2023, and then they'll fuck it up again with moves to "get them over the final hurdle."
lol "minus the rings".. dude not even close
It's like, 2 years of (relative) success, followed by 5-7 years of trash, repeat.
So yeah, I expect this team to be a winning team again some time around 2023, and then they'll fuck it up again with moves to "get them over the final hurdle."
Yep, I've pointed that out many times.
The Mets haven't been sustainably competitive in DECADES.
They've been a postseason team in back to back seasons one time in their entire franchise history.
Think about that.
So you fire him tomorrow and then who do you replace him with mid season? What does that do to a team already struggling or a rookie manager.
Short sighted thinking here folks
So you fire him tomorrow and then who do you replace him with mid season? What does that do to a team already struggling or a rookie manager.
Short sighted thinking here folks
I would argue that trying to salvage 2018 might be short term thinking. Getting a competent GM in Queens and building something sustainable would be the goal.
There's one common link through all of that, and that's the Wilpons owning the team. They're the real problem and nothing will ever change as long as they own the team.
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Alderson. Fine
So you fire him tomorrow and then who do you replace him with mid season? What does that do to a team already struggling or a rookie manager.
Short sighted thinking here folks
I would argue that trying to salvage 2018 might be short term thinking. Getting a competent GM in Queens and building something sustainable would be the goal.
I'm sorry but I cant stand impulsive mid season firings that some teams do. It shows the organization lacks stability and the ability to deal with adversity. It also plays against the team when they are in the market to hire top level candidates.
Top level organizations try to avoid this cause they see the negative statement it implies. It also gives the media some level of entitled power. An then you have the emotional super fans.
Only mid season firing I enjoyed agreed was Macadoo. fucker had to go
Alderson more then likely deserves to be let go, and yes the team needs a complete house cleaning, unfortunately I believe the org needs to wait till the end of the season.
Its all about the behind the scenes stuff
Casual fans don't realize how important scouting and developing are to a franchise. Look at the Yankees, Boston, and Dodgers for example. They spend a great deal in scouting and player development.
When Frank Wren took over as GM for the Braves he gutted their scouting department in order to have more money to spend on the MLB team. He let go several of the long time scouts and the Braves farm system became a joke. Mix that in with horrible drafting (Jason Hursh over Aaron Judge) and the Braves were a disaster. John Hart came in and rebuilt the scouting department including bringing back several of the scouts that Wren fired and then he blew up the roster to rebuild. The Braves went from one of the worst farm systems in baseball to the best. Their drafting has been outstanding over the past four years.
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The organization has not invested enough in scouting/development/training/analytics. Forget about FA signings.
Its all about the behind the scenes stuff
Casual fans don't realize how important scouting and developing are to a franchise. Look at the Yankees, Boston, and Dodgers for example. They spend a great deal in scouting and player development.
When Frank Wren took over as GM for the Braves he gutted their scouting department in order to have more money to spend on the MLB team. He let go several of the long time scouts and the Braves farm system became a joke. Mix that in with horrible drafting (Jason Hursh over Aaron Judge) and the Braves were a disaster. John Hart came in and rebuilt the scouting department including bringing back several of the scouts that Wren fired and then he blew up the roster to rebuild. The Braves went from one of the worst farm systems in baseball to the best. Their drafting has been outstanding over the past four years.
Because the Braves have mastered how to draft under the new system. The best teams get their talent early in the draft with high upside players then figure out the money aspect while spending up to their cap. Carter Stewart will likely come for about $750,000 less than Jared Kelenic is costing the Mets. Carter Stewart also has greater upside. If the Mets had taken someone like Stewart or Ryan Weathers they likely would have had a minimum of $1,500,000-$2,000,000 to spread to guys like Mike Siani and others rather than the Carlos Cortes's of the game
Because the Braves have mastered how to draft under the new system. The best teams get their talent early in the draft with high upside players then figure out the money aspect while spending up to their cap. Carter Stewart will likely come for about $750,000 less than Jared Kelenic is costing the Mets. Carter Stewart also has greater upside. If the Mets had taken someone like Stewart or Ryan Weathers they likely would have had a minimum of $1,500,000-$2,000,000 to spread to guys like Mike Siani and others rather than the Carlos Cortes's of the game
Mike, it is rumored that the Braves are going over slot to sign Stewart.
Last year's draft the Braves followed a different plan. They went overslot on 5th overall pick Kyle Wright and 3rd round HS pitcher Freddie Tarnok. They took more senior signs than usual.
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Because the Braves have mastered how to draft under the new system. The best teams get their talent early in the draft with high upside players then figure out the money aspect while spending up to their cap. Carter Stewart will likely come for about $750,000 less than Jared Kelenic is costing the Mets. Carter Stewart also has greater upside. If the Mets had taken someone like Stewart or Ryan Weathers they likely would have had a minimum of $1,500,000-$2,000,000 to spread to guys like Mike Siani and others rather than the Carlos Cortes's of the game
Mike, it is rumored that the Braves are going over slot to sign Stewart.
I had seen things the other way, but it could just be overly optimistic Braves fans
He drafted other useful pieces that may still prove valuable, like Cheech, Alonso, Peterson, Guillorme, Gimenez, Szapucki, and Dunn. And he traded for Thor and d'Arnaud and even though d'Arnaud hasn't exactly panned out he won that trade.
It's free agency that has cost the Mets, and that has a lot more to do with the Wilpons. We've passed over the guys that really would make a meaningful difference because of cost, and he has made some bad moves in that regard. But even though the farm isn't great right now, a lot of that has to do with the graduations and the trades (like the Fulmer deal for Cespedes). I do think that just with the kids like Alonso, McNeil, and in another year and a half or so, Gimenez, we'll have a better team.
But you can't blame Sandy for the impossible run of bad injuries that has befell this team for 2 years. And if Harvey never tears his capsule, and Thor doesn't miss all of last season, and Wright doesn't get spinal stenosis, who knows where this team would be.
But the fact that the Wilpons won't be serious bidders for elite talents bothers me, and so, a New York team with a budget like that of the Toronto Blue Jays...the Mets are what they deserve to be, thanks to the owners.
Not to belabor the point, but the Mets have more payroll for 2018 on the disabled list than any other team in the Majors, at over $83 million (according to Spotrac).
No one has seen him at the major showcases, so how will he perform against top level competetition? Without knowing that, huge risk.
If you’re going kverslot, Singer was the better pick there.
We won’t know the answer for 6-8+ years, so really a moot point lol
I had seen things the other way, but it could just be overly optimistic Braves fans
It's been pretty quiet but the few rumors there are is that he will sign slightly overslot. Due to the sanctions the Braves didn't have their 3rd round pick so I believe that they the second lowest draft pool this years class. Oddly enough they took several more talented tough sign prospects than they have over the past two years so it will be interesting to see if they can get several of them signed. They already went overslot on their 5th round pick RHP Trey Wilson.
I can't think of the last free agent signing the Mets got right.
They would be substantially better investing their finite resources in their system.
I can't think of the last free agent signing the Mets got right.
They would be substantially better investing their finite resources in their system.
The problem is they don't realize that spending an extra few hundred thousand in the draft to get the next Jay Bruce saves money over the long haul versus signing Jay Bruce as a Free Agent
No one has seen him at the major showcases, so how will he perform against top level competetition? Without knowing that, huge risk.
If you’re going kverslot, Singer was the better pick there.
We won’t know the answer for 6-8+ years, so really a moot point lol
I respectfully disagree. Singer does not have ace upside , Stewart is obviously 4-6 years away from the majors but his upside is exciting. He already has two 70 grade FV pitches so he just needs to develop an average changeup and he will be an elite prospect. He will not be rushed with all the arms in front of him so Stewart is in a great position. He arguably has the highest upside of all the pitchers in the class so I would rather take a chance on that than a guy closer to the majors but only with #3 upside.
The Wilpons ain't going anywhere, so they have to start at the GM and scouting dept. Their approach to this past draft was sketchy at best. They are proving that they can't compete at the Front Office level with the better teams, several of which are in their own division. I get a lot of Braves coverage down here, and even with the sanctions, the Bravos are miles ahead....their Low A Rome (GA) team ran away with the 1st Half Pennant. The other NL East teams are pretty well stocked in the minors too.
And why are the Metsies always hurt ?? Every freakin' year they have half a team on the IR !!
Get a GM that can put together an entire farm system, with a philosophy. Is there still a money problem with this team ?
If you’ve read his scouting report, mehhhh. You see him pitch, or talk to the guys that face him, different story. First off, balls of steel. Loves he big game. Competitive as it comes. Loves to intimidate hitters. Might not throw 98, but hitters hate facing him. Yes, I wanted the mets to draft him. No, I unfortunately didn’t expect them to. But I will cetainly be watching and pulling for him.
If you’ve read his scouting report, mehhhh. You see him pitch, or talk to the guys that face him, different story. First off, balls of steel. Loves he big game. Competitive as it comes. Loves to intimidate hitters. Might not throw 98, but hitters hate facing him. Yes, I wanted the mets to draft him. No, I unfortunately didn’t expect them to. But I will cetainly be watching and pulling for him.
Singer could help Atlanta much earlier than Stewart but the Braves just used the 5th overall pick last year on Vandy's Kyle Wright. They also have top prospects Kolby Allard and Max Fried in AAA, Kyle Wright, Touki Toussaint, and Bryse Wilson in AA. They have the luxury of taking chances on raw high upside arms because of the number of pitchers already in the system.
Maybe the game passed him by; maybe it's the scouting; maybe it's the evaluation system; maybe the inability of the farm to develop the players.
A lot of that sounds like the NYFG.
Since, in neither case, you can't rid ownership,you do what the Giants did. Since I don't know if Wilpon is as caring(seems not) about Mets success as JM is for NY, I do think they need to bring a consultant , likely a kick-ass to evaluate the moves and the evaluation methods, and, why all the injuries to the arms; and make recommendations as well as the tough comments about spend the money or firings.
The rest is up to ownership on what they do with the recommendations.
Just hope a couple of guys get hot, plus 1 of pitchers, and hope to move them for the best minors ' guys.
Granderson - Good
Cabrera - Good
Frank Francisco - Bad
Frazier - To Soon to tell
Cuddyer - Stupid Stupid Stupid wasteful signing
Antonio Bastardo - Bad
Swarzak - Injured
Free Agency has been a mixed bag. The positive has been no debilitating contracts, the bad is that there has been literally no impact signings. The largest contract to an unrestricted free agent was granderson.
The biggest mistakes have been the re-signs and the non-resigns.
We've resigned Wright, Cespedes, Blevins, Walker who have all been bad/injury prone. (Two 100 mill contracts have been mostly on the DL)
The non-resigns of players like Turner and Murphy and even Addison Reed really hurt.
The problem also is just the pure lack of supply of talent that is going to live up to expectations. Look at this list of major contracts from the last 4 years; who has really lived up to there contracts?
Sandoval $95 M 2014 . no
Tomas $68 M 2014 . no
J. Shields $75 M 2014 hell no
H. Ramirez $88 M 2014 no
N. Markakis $44 m 2014 yes
J. Lester $155 m 2014 yes
N. Cruz $57m 2014 yes
W. Y.Chen $80 m 2015 hell no
J. Cueto $130 m 2015 . no
Z. Greinke $206 m 2015 no
J. Hayward $184 m 2015 hell no
S. Kazmir $48 m 2015 hell no
M. Leake $80 m 2015 prob not
D. Price $217m 2015 eh
J. Samardjia $90 M 2015 hell no
J. Upton $12 m 2015 eh
J. Zimmerman $110 m 2015 hell no
B. Zobrist $55m m 2015 eh
Y. Cespedes $110 m 2016 no
A.Chapman $86 m 2016 maybe?
i. Desmond $70m 2016 hell no
E. Encarnacion $60 m 2016 Yes
D. Fowler $82 m 2016 . no
R. Hill $48 m 2016 not this year
K. Jansen $80 m 2016 so far
M. Melancon $62 m 2016 eh
J. Reddick $52 m 2016 . eh
M. Trumbo $37 m 2016 . no
J. Turner $64 m 2016 . maybe
J. Arrieta $75m 2017 . so far
L. Cain $80 m 2017 so far
A. Cobb $57 m 2017 . hell no
Y. Darvish $126 m 2017 . no
E. Hosmer $144 m 2017 . maybe
JD Martinez 110 m 2017 YESSS
C. Santana $60 m 2017 . no
bottom line is, there has been very few big winners on the Free Agent market available to us.
We need to start developing our own position players. You can't have Conforto fall off the planet and Rosario produce nothing. We struck big with Syndergaard and deGrom but we need a premiere hitter.
I think we have to go ALL IN on Machado this off-season. He fits this team like a glove.
Mets have also been less than the sum of their parts. Part of that is Mickeys inexperience, part. Of it is vets mailing it in once the season headed south
Agon should be cut tomorrow. Lack of effort is contagious
This. Until they are gone the only choices are:
A) another long rebuild with a restricted payroll, new GM chosen by Jeff (probably Omar)
B) another patchwork attempt to go for it with Thor/JDG
All options suck until the Wilpons are gone. They are almost incapable of making good hires, they are incapable of spending the appropriate resources, and even if they overcame the first problem no good candidate would want to work here. Rebuilding on the fly like the Yankees is a dream unmoored to the reality that this ownership isn’t spending on guys like Chapman and Stanton any time soon.
I agree. Cut agon and call up Smith. Promote Alonso to Vegas
mcneil 3-5
Might as well have Smith earn his lumps in Queens
Howie Rose just said on @710WOR Mets broadcast that "a pretty strong source within the Mets organization" told him Pete Alonso won't be called to the majors this season "no matter what"
Howie Rose just said on @710WOR Mets broadcast that "a pretty strong source within the Mets organization" told him Pete Alonso won't be called to the majors this season "no matter what"
I think it has to do with when he has to be on the 40 man and not wanting to start the clock towards Free Agency earlier than necessary
it's ridiculous. He's a defensive liability everywhere he plays and he's an auto out. It's a joke.
It's like, 2 years of (relative) success, followed by 5-7 years of trash, repeat.
So yeah, I expect this team to be a winning team again some time around 2023, and then they'll fuck it up again with moves to "get them over the final hurdle."
100%. Where are all the statistic guys when it’s time to research the Mets organizational trends since 1889? I also said 2025 on another site 2 years ago due to their trends of 1-2 almost years followed by 5-8 years of crap.
Kelly has already shown you what he can and cant do. Ceechini hasnt.
Kelly has already shown you what he can and cant do. Ceechini hasnt.
Just a guess, but maybe it's because of Cabrera's injury. They need someone who's used to making the turn at second on double play balls. When Cabrera comes back, Kelly will probably go back to Vegas.
Second, the Mets must play better defense. If the team is to be built around pitching, then you must have premiere defenders. This needs to occur up the middle. Catcher, second base, shortstop, and centerfield should be top defenders first. The Mets defense is not very good which puts even more stress on the starting and relief pitching. The Mets cannot afford to let teams take an extra base, steal bases at will, and create extra outs by making errors.
Third, the Mets should build the offense around speed and contact, not power. Power comes and goes, speed is always there. The speed can apply pressure to the opposing teams and force mistakes. I would also look to have a team that is balanced righty /lefty. There should be a least 2-3 switch hitters.
I do not believe that the Mets makeover is a one year rebuild. This is a commitment to a team image. This image is not just at the Major Leagues, but, must occur throughout the minors. I would trade any players who are not expected to be here in three years. I would trade any players that do not fit into the image of the team.
Alderson has built a mismatched team. This is reminiscent of what Reese did with the Giants. The single most important thing that management can do is to have a clear image of what the team will be and constantly reinforce that image with the players that are brought in.
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2. Build a foundation through youth. This is what they did a few years ago when their staff was all young. The Mets should have spent some money around those guys, but of course they are the cheapest organization in all of sports and didn't. Now it's too late. The window is now closed, IMO.
Option 2 is the route to take for the Mets. Break it down and start over. Sell anyone and everyone for high level prospects and start the process over. The Mets can get a haul for Degrom. They can get good prospects for Syndergaard and probably Cespedes(when he comes back and starts to hit). They have some other guys that might bring back decent, not great prospects. Unfortunately, I don't see any other option for the Mets. If they don't trade these guys, how are they going to get better?
Second, the Mets must play better defense. If the team is to be built around pitching, then you must have premiere defenders. This needs to occur up the middle. Catcher, second base, shortstop, and centerfield should be top defenders first. The Mets defense is not very good which puts even more stress on the starting and relief pitching. The Mets cannot afford to let teams take an extra base, steal bases at will, and create extra outs by making errors.
Third, the Mets should build the offense around speed and contact, not power. Power comes and goes, speed is always there. The speed can apply pressure to the opposing teams and force mistakes. I would also look to have a team that is balanced righty /lefty. There should be a least 2-3 switch hitters.
I do not believe that the Mets makeover is a one year rebuild. This is a commitment to a team image. This image is not just at the Major Leagues, but, must occur throughout the minors. I would trade any players who are not expected to be here in three years. I would trade any players that do not fit into the image of the team.
Alderson has built a mismatched team. This is reminiscent of what Reese did with the Giants. The single most important thing that management can do is to have a clear image of what the team will be and constantly reinforce that image with the players that are brought in.
Great post I couldn't agree more. The only slight footnote i'd add in the positive direction for Alderson is the young players he's drafted/signed mostly DO fit with the direction your proposing. Nimmo, Conforto, Rosario, Gimenez, Kelenic, even Smith was supposed to be a gold glove level 1B. All of them are plus defenders and plus contact hitters. So that's 1 mark in the positive direction.
It's just too bad he signing guys like Bruce/Walker/Cabrera the last few years instead of investing in moving the team more in the direction you're proposing.
The Mets are not going to get good prospects for Cespedes. Coming off his career year there weren't many suitors for him in FA. Now that he is older and owed a lot of money there will be few if any teams willing to take on his contract. They might be able to get a mid level prospect back if they either pay some of Cespedes' contract or take back a struggling player with a decent sized contract.
Yes there is no doubting that he is a superb offensive player when healthy. The problem is he hasn't remained healthy over the past two years. The trade deadline is 50 days so if Cespedes misses 2-4 more weeks he won't have much time to showcase himself assuming he performs better than he did earlier in the year. Another issue is the lack of teams with needs at his position. At the moment the only teams that on paper need a corner OF are the Mariners and Giants.