Couldn't agree more with these guys. It's pissed me off year after year, the Giants' inability to field an offense that even remotely suited Eli's strengths. Link - ( New Window )
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
"shell shocked" "happy feet" and justifiably speeding up the internal play clock because your line is the worst its been your entire career and has little consistency from drive to drive. The former is some incurable disease that Eli somehow contracted and the latter is simply playing in a shit situation. I tend to think its simply the latter.
I have zero doubts, with his present arsenal, that Eli, still healthy with a strong arm, can be clutch Eli again, EXCEPT for the POSSIBILITY of PTSD, through little fault of his own. I hope your “latter” is the correct one. If it is, just watch..
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
Agreed. I would throw in the recent winners as well. There are no real powerhouses. A Foles led Philly team, a flawed NE team that should have lost to an unremarkable Atlanta team, a lopsided Broncos team. You can quibble here or there, but are any of these teams really on a different level than the '11 team? They may have had better regular seasons, but once that team got healthy and came together I certainly don't agree. Their path to and through the SB I would suggest they beat more than one team arguably better than any of the three I've listed.
You’re wasting your time with my offline buddy, bw. Â
What is Ohara and Tuck smoking? If any team wasted their qb's prime years is the Packers. Bad defense for a long time, injuries to the oline...Dude play full season missing both starting tackles and still made playoffs and played great. No run game.
ARodgers played great when the Packers put an average product around him. That is wasting a qb's prime years
Eli has played bad and requires All Pro talent to function while making over 20 million a season
a player's prime years, you can point to tons of examples in the salary cap era.
You could say Indy wasted Peyton's prime by fielding a non-competitive D
You could say the same about Brees. Two years the Saints had the worst D in the league
You could say the Lions wasted Barry Sanders prime
You could say that the Vikings wasted AP's prime by never having a successful QB/WR combo to go with him
The list goes on and on.
What I know is Eli has 2 rings. The folly are fans who expected the team to have more. Romo has none on a team fans here usually marvel at the construct of. The Redskins have a long drought. We talk about Eli's prime being wasted as his contempories like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Ryan have less titles to show.
I've had plenty of good football conversations with bw since he's returned - but his perspective on the Giants really does baffle me. He talks about them like they're the most incompetent franchise in pro sports and the amount of dislike for Eli (not just now, when he's declining, but the entire body of work) is staggering.
What Eli is right now, in 2018, is absolutely up for debate.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
I have no problem with people who think Eli is done, wanted to draft a QB, move on, etc - I didn't necessarily feel exactly the same way, but I get that.
How anyone could harbor dislike for Eli in general as a Giants fan at this point is just really difficult to understand. Doesn't sound like much of a Giants fan, really.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
Correction: “...that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of sports.”
You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
So you believe he has had enough talent surrounding him the last 6 years to make a playoff/SB run?
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
RE: RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
Well so does NYSports1..... so it could have applied to him.
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
Well, this '11 team with these "star" players went 9-7 again the following year. Only they weren't so fortunate to back into the playoffs again. So they couldn't catch lightening in a bottle again.
However, I agree - to the victor goes the spoils. They took down some big teams. That is certainly worth applauding.
But stripped down, this was a team that just got hot at the right time. And really haven't/weren't able to duplicate anything remotely similar since. Think that speaks volumes...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.
A stunning post? Really? The team was 9-7.
"Premier regular season by Eli"? He had a decent rating of 93 but threw 16 INTs to 29TDs, less than 2:1 ratio. That's some definition of "premier"...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
I would say it differently - I expose ownership.
I actually love Jints Central. They are sweet, old men trying their damnest to do things the "Giants Way". Whatever the hell that is...
is that we know Eli can go big game hunting as well as anyone. If we'd been more consistent just making the playoffs he could have gotten us some more big wins. Even in the 2016 playoffs he came out great in Green Bay before the wide receivers completely shit the bed.
But to make the playoffs only 5 times in 14 years in this mess of a division...
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
The proof is in the record, in the point differential, and in the points allowed. The Giants are huge outliers in all three categories amongst the Super Bowl champions.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
Your chronology is basically right. The 2011 team was a team all of the performance map. Then they just caught some tail winds that took them to a result absolutely NO ONE saw coming.
And that's really the point - they weren't a very reliable team for nearly the entire season. They snuck into the playoffs with the two wins at the end to finish 9-7. Then the unexpected happened.
Sure, you take it - all day. But it's also worthwhile to step back and put what happened in context. In my judgment, versus many other teams that have won the whole thing, that 2011 team was not exemplary by any measurement.
And like I said above, the following years just bear that out. An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
If by mainstream you mean those of us who enjoyed those championship teams and not piss on their accomplishments, then yes I am a mainstream fan.
An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
It was one of the greatest quarterback seasons of all time.
Statistically last in rushing, an inconsistent defense, and just decent pass protection, yet our man gets the record for most comeback wins in a season. For winning outdoors and under pressure, there was no one better. Brees and Brady, despite their gaudy statistics that year, didn't take home the lombardi.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
It's certainly helpful when posters go the extra mile Â
Which has basically been the thrust of most of your posts. That "Jints Central" is a conglomeration of idiots and fools, born with silver spoons up their asses who are "nice" men who suck at running a football team.
Yet, these idiots have lucked into catching lightning in a bottle 4 times, and at least once in each of the past 4 decades.
But you probably realized that was what I'm getting at and you just don't have a pithy retort that can be used against it.
and if there's any more ammunition to refute your bizarre dislike of Eli, you just laid it out right here:
Quote:
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
You know what isn't part of those stats? QB play. That season alone should cement Eli as the reason the Giants won the SB and should pretty much endear any fan of the Giants to him.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
let's not forget that bw has actually praised Dan Snyder's ownership before. And on threads referring to "Jints Central" and stodgy old men.
LOL, I must have missed that - but if that's true, that's pretty damning. If you're criticizing "Jints Central" on a daily basis but somehow found ways to praise Daniel Snyder, I think the motivations are much clearer.
I don't know how there is any argument over that. Missed the playoffs in 2009-10, barely scraped by in 2011, missed them 2012-15. Out of nowhere, their shitty defense started playing well in the playoffs and their moribund running game came alive, and they got red hot. It was a lot of fun. It also came out of the clear blue sky.
The Giants are a strange franchise. They don't get into the playoffs all that much but tend to go on runs when they do.
the Giants were also dead last or in the bottom 5 in terms of health. when they finally had a healthy season (2016), where they were in the top 10, they made the playoffs.
Injuries will impact any team, but one that was weakened due to poor drafts that leaves little depth, it has a massive impact.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
Motivations? It's a football site where we debate topics, mostly, about the Giants. So I jump into conversations and like to kick it around. It really shouldn't be any BFD.
The topic was the 2011 team and how unusual their SB victory was despite so many facts suggesting they weren't a quality team. The underlying point, as I mentioned many posts earlier, was how this shows the randomness of the NFL, and how only in the NFL you could possibly get a team like the 2011 Giants team to actually win a SB. I actually find it bewildering why that makes people so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I've been getting the SKins fan thing for a long time. So the occasional references have no impact. If you want to know the gist of that, I once said I admired the way the Skins aggressively used free agency to make their team better. They obviously didn't get it right most of the time, but that was a pathway I thought was a crucial way to build a team. I think I was arguing that I'd rather spend money for a proven asset than an unproven asset - college draft choices. And this was when rookies could negotiate more freely for money versus in today's model where they are essentially locked into the draft slot.
Forget the 2011 debate - it's really not about that.
The only thing that's really bewildering is how a Giants fan can look at Eli Manning the way you do and repeatedly talk about the team like they've been one of the worst franchises in pro sports for decades.
If you praised the Redskins for that approach back then, why didn't you praise the Giants for doing it in 2016? (Fair to assume you didn't - I don't think you were even posting here that year)
What Eli is now or seasons as awful as the one we just saw are worthy of debate/criticism. I just can't really recall a single time where you had anything positive to say about "Jints Central" - which is a little weird for someone who supposedly roots for the team. But I guess that's how some fans are. The glass is always half-empty even when the team wins.
the net impact of the Redskins free agent signings didn't strengthen the team, but made them weaker.
But aggression is better than stodgy old men apparently.
The Redskins best players over the past 15 years have overwhelmingly been homegrown, whether it was RG III's one good season, Cousins, Cooley, Kerrigan, Morris, etc.
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
Quote:
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
10-6
15-1 on the road
13-3 on the road
13-3 Brady and Belichick
In route to winning a SB. Every other SB team in history would have done so.
I have zero doubts, with his present arsenal, that Eli, still healthy with a strong arm, can be clutch Eli again, EXCEPT for the POSSIBILITY of PTSD, through little fault of his own. I hope your “latter” is the correct one. If it is, just watch..
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
This. The lack of attention to the line was negligence.
you are insufferable
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
Ok, movin’ on..😎
ARodgers played great when the Packers put an average product around him. That is wasting a qb's prime years
Eli has played bad and requires All Pro talent to function while making over 20 million a season
You could say Indy wasted Peyton's prime by fielding a non-competitive D
You could say the same about Brees. Two years the Saints had the worst D in the league
You could say the Lions wasted Barry Sanders prime
You could say that the Vikings wasted AP's prime by never having a successful QB/WR combo to go with him
The list goes on and on.
What I know is Eli has 2 rings. The folly are fans who expected the team to have more. Romo has none on a team fans here usually marvel at the construct of. The Redskins have a long drought. We talk about Eli's prime being wasted as his contempories like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Ryan have less titles to show.
What Eli is right now, in 2018, is absolutely up for debate.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
I have no problem with people who think Eli is done, wanted to draft a QB, move on, etc - I didn't necessarily feel exactly the same way, but I get that.
How anyone could harbor dislike for Eli in general as a Giants fan at this point is just really difficult to understand. Doesn't sound like much of a Giants fan, really.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
Correction: “...that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of sports.”
So you believe he has had enough talent surrounding him the last 6 years to make a playoff/SB run?
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
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of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
Well so does NYSports1..... so it could have applied to him.
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
Well, this '11 team with these "star" players went 9-7 again the following year. Only they weren't so fortunate to back into the playoffs again. So they couldn't catch lightening in a bottle again.
However, I agree - to the victor goes the spoils. They took down some big teams. That is certainly worth applauding.
But stripped down, this was a team that just got hot at the right time. And really haven't/weren't able to duplicate anything remotely similar since. Think that speaks volumes...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
Well, you didn't see my endless debate about Larry Centers being better than Tiki Barber back in '98 and '99. ;)
A stunning post? Really? The team was 9-7.
"Premier regular season by Eli"? He had a decent rating of 93 but threw 16 INTs to 29TDs, less than 2:1 ratio. That's some definition of "premier"...
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So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
I would say it differently - I expose ownership.
I actually love Jints Central. They are sweet, old men trying their damnest to do things the "Giants Way". Whatever the hell that is...
But to make the playoffs only 5 times in 14 years in this mess of a division...
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No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
Your chronology is basically right. The 2011 team was a team all of the performance map. Then they just caught some tail winds that took them to a result absolutely NO ONE saw coming.
And that's really the point - they weren't a very reliable team for nearly the entire season. They snuck into the playoffs with the two wins at the end to finish 9-7. Then the unexpected happened.
Sure, you take it - all day. But it's also worthwhile to step back and put what happened in context. In my judgment, versus many other teams that have won the whole thing, that 2011 team was not exemplary by any measurement.
And like I said above, the following years just bear that out. An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
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So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
If by mainstream you mean those of us who enjoyed those championship teams and not piss on their accomplishments, then yes I am a mainstream fan.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
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An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
It's fucking baffling, man. I don't get it.
Statistically last in rushing, an inconsistent defense, and just decent pass protection, yet our man gets the record for most comeback wins in a season. For winning outdoors and under pressure, there was no one better. Brees and Brady, despite their gaudy statistics that year, didn't take home the lombardi.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
Which has basically been the thrust of most of your posts. That "Jints Central" is a conglomeration of idiots and fools, born with silver spoons up their asses who are "nice" men who suck at running a football team.
Yet, these idiots have lucked into catching lightning in a bottle 4 times, and at least once in each of the past 4 decades.
But you probably realized that was what I'm getting at and you just don't have a pithy retort that can be used against it.
And you question my understanding of the game.
You know what isn't part of those stats? QB play. That season alone should cement Eli as the reason the Giants won the SB and should pretty much endear any fan of the Giants to him.
Emphasis on "fan of the Giants"......
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For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
LOL, I must have missed that - but if that's true, that's pretty damning. If you're criticizing "Jints Central" on a daily basis but somehow found ways to praise Daniel Snyder, I think the motivations are much clearer.
But there was a small group of posters who insisted that the Giants needed to be like Snyder and Jones instead of conservative old men.....
The Giants are a strange franchise. They don't get into the playoffs all that much but tend to go on runs when they do.
Injuries will impact any team, but one that was weakened due to poor drafts that leaves little depth, it has a massive impact.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
Motivations? It's a football site where we debate topics, mostly, about the Giants. So I jump into conversations and like to kick it around. It really shouldn't be any BFD.
The topic was the 2011 team and how unusual their SB victory was despite so many facts suggesting they weren't a quality team. The underlying point, as I mentioned many posts earlier, was how this shows the randomness of the NFL, and how only in the NFL you could possibly get a team like the 2011 Giants team to actually win a SB. I actually find it bewildering why that makes people so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I've been getting the SKins fan thing for a long time. So the occasional references have no impact. If you want to know the gist of that, I once said I admired the way the Skins aggressively used free agency to make their team better. They obviously didn't get it right most of the time, but that was a pathway I thought was a crucial way to build a team. I think I was arguing that I'd rather spend money for a proven asset than an unproven asset - college draft choices. And this was when rookies could negotiate more freely for money versus in today's model where they are essentially locked into the draft slot.
The only thing that's really bewildering is how a Giants fan can look at Eli Manning the way you do and repeatedly talk about the team like they've been one of the worst franchises in pro sports for decades.
If you praised the Redskins for that approach back then, why didn't you praise the Giants for doing it in 2016? (Fair to assume you didn't - I don't think you were even posting here that year)
What Eli is now or seasons as awful as the one we just saw are worthy of debate/criticism. I just can't really recall a single time where you had anything positive to say about "Jints Central" - which is a little weird for someone who supposedly roots for the team. But I guess that's how some fans are. The glass is always half-empty even when the team wins.
But aggression is better than stodgy old men apparently.
The Redskins best players over the past 15 years have overwhelmingly been homegrown, whether it was RG III's one good season, Cousins, Cooley, Kerrigan, Morris, etc.