Couldn't agree more with these guys. It's pissed me off year after year, the Giants' inability to field an offense that even remotely suited Eli's strengths. Link - ( New Window )
“I agree with him,” Tuck said. “We all know what Eli can do when he is healthy and when he has comparable athletes around him. I don’t think he had those. Anything other than that, you are just lying to yourself.”
“I can only talk toward history,” Tuck said. “History tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. That’s what I’m hoping for this season.”
“I agree with him,” Tuck said. “We all know what Eli can do when he is healthy and when he has comparable athletes around him. I don’t think he had those. Anything other than that, you are just lying to yourself.”
“I can only talk toward history,” Tuck said. “History tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. That’s what I’m hoping for this season.”
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts Â
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
this
their high ol draft picks failed or etc..not like they didnt try to address the Ol..just bad talent evaluation, injury, or etc
RE: RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts Â
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
They rode the Super Bowls, plain and simple. And, I think most people would have done the same. I look at the endings of Bird, McHale, and Parish and think that is more the norm than the exception. The exception was shipping Garnett and Pierce to Brooklyn.
I meant rode the management team, not the players Â
Was apart of the 2009 team that started 5-0 and still missed the playoffs and the 2010 disaster so he should keep quiet. That 2010 could of went to the super bowl if they got in.
for all these years only to now see the wind direction change.
I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
The Giants had a loyalty storm on their hands - a HC and a GM who shared blame, and they didn't want to make a move on either until it was too late. Their loyalty and desire for continuity, in general not a bad thing, proved to be their downfall here.
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts Â
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.
The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.
for all these years only to now see the wind direction change.
I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.
It's a circular argument. Fine if you want to pat yourself on the back for having the opinion that Reese didn't do enough, but they won it all twice, in no small part to drafts and free agency moves that Reese presided over.
"Reese wasted Eli's prime years" is a NY Post quality headline. Some of the greatest players of all time never even got to a super bowl much less won two. Winning championships is supposed to be hard, not a thing that anyone can do if you just try and want to.
may have wasted Eli's prime, but it wasn't for a lack of trying - they simply made poor moves.
Eli has had some excellent WR's to throw to. What he hasn't had is a very good OL, but that's not really "wasting" his prime, it was a failure to build a decent unit to protect him.
And for that, the GM was fired, and before him, TC was fired.
Everyone wants to make this about Eli, but really it is just a poor job at building a complete team.
Just pointing to the OL picks they made in a vacuum is silly Â
They spent quite a bit of FA money on the OL as well. It just didn't pan out.
It's worth pointing out, again, that the decline in the Giants OL went along with a league-wide decline in OL play. It just got harder to put together a good OL, and the Giants were affected more than most, in particular due to some early career ending injuries (to Snee, Baas, Beatty).
Doesn't take into account or even mention the #1 problem. Injuries. Â
The Giants ave been at or near the bottom of the league for injuries in 6 of the last 7 years I believe. The one year they were relatively healthy they went 11-5. This was a far bigger factor than draft picks, FAs or coaching.
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.
The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.
I don't disagree that Oline drafting was a key issue, I just didn't know there was math to support it...
But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.
Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.
is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts Â
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
Reese drafted 1 OL player (Will Beatty, 2nd Round) with a premium pick until Pugh in ‘13. 7 years.
It may not rise to the level of malice, but it was clear Reese valued other positions and chose to build the roster around skill position players.
It wasn’t just failed draft picks and FA’s — it was neglect until he had no choice but to force picks at the position.
offense has been shit for a while now, but its hard for me to say that his prime was wasted. The Giants wom two Super Bowls in his prime, the last 4-5 years have definitely been wasted but every single lne kf us would have signed for 1 super bowl in Elis tenure, never mind two
is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??
I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
RE: RE: RE: Also, people here swear by Bill Polian's opinion Â
But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.
Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.
No, I agree, was just supporting your point. Polian had two HoF passers for a combined *24 years* - and had exactly 1 SB trophy to show for it.
is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??
I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.
Are there two of you?
Huh?
You may have me confused with someone else. I had made it quite known I wanted them to draft Darnold or Rosen this year. I wanted a QB badly. I figured Eli would get 1 more year and the successor would take over next year unless we pulled one out of the rabbit's hat.
I also stated that if we drafted a rookie, he should play as soon as we were eliminated from the playoffs.
The other stuff you said is something I absolutely did not say. I am a huge Eli fan, but I have made it known all offseason that it was best for them to find a successor.
Think you dropped the ball on this one Googs, no offense.
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
If that were actually true (the "scared" part), doesn't that feed into the overall thesis of the piece. Being "scared" would be 100% a function of mismanagement in building on offensive line.
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.
Considering the guys who architected the team were fired. They were horrible in drafting Oline, that we can agree. But I don't buy into the poor Eli narrative. In 2011 he had great weapons in passing game and Bradshaw. 2012 he still had a lot of the SB team core but injuries settling in. By 2013 there was garbage talent there, but I will not give him a complete pass --some things were on Eli too. As bad as the talent was, I feel this was Eli's worst year as a pro.
2014, things were still bad, but he also had Odell who was amazing and covered up a lot of the crap and I would say 2014 and 2015 were good years for him and the offense. It was McAdoo's system, but we forget that things worked well at this time. INTs were down, yardage was up, TDs were up, and Odell opened up things for the rest of the offense. The line was not good but the offense was designed for short throws and the ball coming out quick. What was wasted here is the defense. To say things were wasted for Eli in those years because McAdoo's scheme is revisionist history. The offense was good and Eli was playing at a probowl level.
In these years the team was investing in offense. In every year from 2012 - 2017 the Giants used their 1st round pick on Offense except 2016 where they did use a 2nd on Shepard. In 2012 and 2014 they used both a first and 2nd pick on O. 2013 and 2015 they used their top pick on an OT with 2015 being a top 10 choice. Yes, Flowers wasn't good, but if you recall, he was not planned to be thrown in the fire at OLT - they had Beatty who occupied OLT during 2011 SB and Flowers was going to ease into the position after getting work in on the Right.
2016 and 2017 I am not going to get into extensively. The Oline was severely challenged and teams had figured out how to mitigate Odell and McAdoo was horrible. That said, the Defense was great in 2016 and carried the team to playoffs. Expectations were super high heading into the seasons a year ago and just about everyone had this perspective. Despite how bad things were, I do not give Eli a full pass for those years. They were not his best years. It seems to me Eli's confidence was shaken.
That said, I think we are going to see an energized Eli this season. It is not all about the new talent or play calling either. The faith this group has put in him is already showing signs of paying off. Eli could be in position for one of his best seasons as a pro.
No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
I think the 'wasted prime' argument has less to do with SBs Â
and more to do with the overall competitiveness of the team during Eli's tenure.
The truth is the team missed the playoffs far too often for a team that had a franchise QB at the helm. I don't think that's easily written off onto Reese. There were times the talent was there and the results weren't. Then there were times that the talent wasn't at the level it should have been.
I don't think Eli deserves a full pass either - he had plenty of games (if not entire stretches) where he just didn't play as well as he could have.
What it seems like in hindsight was a team that suffered through an abnormally high number of injuries also had a QB who could be inconsistent at times, and a front office that was at odds with itself (Reese and TC). Combine it all, and you had an underperforming team for large stretches during that run.
Ask Dan Marino. Getting a team to a SB is no easy feet. He won everyone he was in and against the GOAT. I’d say he’s been a very fortunate man. I’m a fan but I’m also very happy with what he has been able to do. He’s not finished yet either.
No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
Agreed. And if not for some bad luck (and some dumb luck) in 2008, they probably would have won a 3rd.
Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.
No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
Agreed. And if not for some bad luck (and some dumb luck) in 2008, they probably would have won a 3rd.
Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.
Yep.. just look at our own division, too... since Eli became a full time starter.
2005: NYG
2006: PHI
2007: DAL
2008: NYG
2009: DAL
2010: PHI
2011: NYG
2012: WSH
2013: PHI
2014: DAL
2015: WSH
2016: DAL
2017: PHI
Our division has been a carousel his entire career. Not a single back to back division champion in 13 years, which I think speaks to the parity in the NFL a great deal.
So, its not just the Giants.
Many management decisions are based on, or result from financial Â
considerations which neither players, nor fans, nor media are in a position to know about, or make valid comments on.
HOWEVER, just because we don't know the specific reasons for the decisions that have been made, it is still fair for fans to conclude that a series of losing years is the result of bad decision-making by the owners/managers of the team.
Furthermore, I have absolutely no obligation to tell the Giants what it SHOULD have done in order not to stink, but I have every right to point out that they DO stink. It is THEIR fault not MINE that they stink, and they have brass balls for asking the same ticket prices for a 3-13 club as for a 11-5 club.
Maybe O’Hara, Snee, Diehl and McKenzie should have retired... Â
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
If that were actually true (the "scared" part), doesn't that feed into the overall thesis of the piece. Being "scared" would be 100% a function of mismanagement in building on offensive line.
I'd say yes and no. He's scared because the OL hasn't been very good and Eli does not like getting hit(what 35-40 year old does??). Part of that is on him though. Despite not wanting to get hit, its a part of the game. You need to be strong in the pocket and willing to take the punishment. I think there is some truth that management wasted Eli's golden years, but because of Eli, the margin for error is very thin. He needed a perfect situation around him.
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.
Well said. For me, the chances and WTF throws he makes isn't the problem. Thats part of what made him successful. He's a bit of a gun slinger. Its the second part for me, thats my concern.
RE: Maybe O’Hara, Snee, Diehl and McKenzie should have retired... Â
...instead of tying up massive amounts of cap space for 1-2 years after each of them have begun to fall apart.
The story of the 2012-2017 Giants is a lot more complicated than O’Hara has ever acknowledged, and his early decline in 2009-2010 was part of it.
Probably the biggest disaster in all of that was the Giants strategy of trying to ride the '11 title team as far as they could, when it was apparent that the wheels were falling off.
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
That the Giants wasted Eli prime. They won two Super Bowls during Eli’s true prime.
A team that wasted a qb is Miami with Marino or Bert Jones with the Colts. Hell then Rodgers had been wasted by the Packers this decade by this silly definition.
Any feelings of pity or remorse for Eli is utter nonsense.
had one of the best OLines in football for many years. Those times where he sat around for 7-8 seconds to throw the ball is something many QBs dream of as well. Not taking anything away from rodgers because he is amazing - but he has had some very, very good OLines and his WR corps have been good as well.
He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.
The Giants had a big advantage over the division Â
They never had to jump into the treacherous waters of the search for the franchise QB. Since 2012 Washington has had a flop franchise QB (Griffin), Dallas dealt with major QB injury issues with Romo starting in 2015, and Philly finished 2012-2017 with five different leading passers (Vick, Foles, Sanchez, Bradford, Wentz).
By contrast we never had any QB issues. No injuries, no controversies, no need to spend premium picks at the position. Yet from 2012-2017:
- 42-54 overall record
- 14-22 divisional record
- 0 divisional titles
I agree with Tuck and O'Hara. The management of the team has been poor for years, and if any one of many things had gone differently in 2011 (the Cruz fumble in Arizona, Romo missing Austin, Eli pulling rabbits out of hats all year) we're talking about an 0-2 playoff record in 10 seasons since the Tyree catch.
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
This is spot on. In fact, the Giants and Eli were a good match and did decently well by each other. Any narrative that paints otherwise is disingenuous.
But this isn't a question of who is the better QB - Rodgers or Eli Â
That answer is obvious, but also remember Eli is no schmo either.
It is absolutely clear Eli is not going to be a game-changer or savior at this stage of his career. He is going to need better players around him for the Offense to be successful. In fact, he probably needs even better players than he is at this point.
And it still may not be enough, but that is the road this regime is taking...at least in 2018.
"I wish someone had wasted our primes like that!" Â
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
Actually he's not. He has literally no idea what or how the qb position is played
This is spot on. In fact, the Giants and Eli were a good match and did decently well by each other. Any narrative that paints otherwise is disingenuous.
Actually its not spot on. The point both are making is that the last 6 years we wasted an opportunity of having a franchise QB and surrounded him with borderline NFL talented who started. Injuries took a toll on some players. But many players who started between 2013-2017 were either castoffs, end of the road players, or those who couldnt get a job after the year it was over.
That is what it means by wasted. We surrounded Eli, the mainstay of the team, with bad players. Did Eli play a hand in some of the games - sure. But outside OBJ - he was surrounded by many players who would be lucky toget a job - and those players started.
How many times have the Packers made the playoffs but Rodgers Â
But the idea that Giants brass failed him is total crap. Then Rivers has been failed much more by the Chargers, Rodgers by the packers, Brees by the Saints etc because they have won less hardware.
This isn’t even about Eli it’s about the fact this argument applies to tons of players. Just a terrible tone of argument.
But the idea that Giants brass failed him is total crap. Then Rivers has been failed much more by the Chargers, Rodgers by the packers, Brees by the Saints etc because they have won less hardware.
I think your missing the overall point of all this. The Giants brass has failed the Giants the last 6 years, its just that those 6 years was when Eli was in his prime and was the mainstay of his team.
Then tons of teams have failed their star players. As if there is some obligation to win for these players. The obligation is to put the best team forward.
Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.
Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.
I agree with this 100%. Thats why you see so much turn over in the league. When I look at this premesis of the thread. I think they are stating since 2012-2013, the Giants have failed to put a quailty team out with a franchise QB. The Giants havent failed Eli in his career, that would be ridiculous. The Giants just have failed to put on a good team the last half of his career.
had one of the best OLines in football for many years. Those times where he sat around for 7-8 seconds to throw the ball is something many QBs dream of as well. Not taking anything away from rodgers because he is amazing - but he has had some very, very good OLines and his WR corps have been good as well.
He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.
Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?
The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.
RE: How many times have the Packers made the playoffs but Rodgers Â
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?
The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.
What great Rbs has Eli ever had? Forget the last 6 years. The best RB he had was over a decade ago. And guess what Eddie Lacy would be the 2nd best RB Eli ever played with.
As far as the OL playing with a guy like Brett Hundley.... Brett Hundley sucks balls. He sucks so bad that the Packers traded for Kizer in the offseason.
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.
Except for a few things. I happen to believe Eli’s prime was 2007 playoff run -12. So no prime wasted. Eli is a middle pack qB since then on a bad team (my opinion of course). So I don’t get this sentiment.
If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.
If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.
This would probably be more accurate since OBJ has been the best player on the team since 2014. However since they asked two of Eli's old teammates - the question was centered around him. I think a lot of his old teammates are still VERY loyal to him - as we saw during his benching last year.
Eli marshalled two teams to championships by playing out of his mind in the playoffs. And given that they won those championships, you could easily say that both of those teams underachieved in the regular season (with Eli at the helm throughout).
In four other years in which he had teams good enough to make the playoffs, he was 0-4.
I get the love for Eli and I love him too, but the amount of people who can't look at him objectively and see that other than those two runs, he's been as average as he is durable is a prime example of seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.
The 2008 Giants should have had a deep playoff run Â
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
That is a good question. You can essentially bank on the Packers having a chance to win the SB largely because of Rodgers. It's like a warm blanket. And you can't win it unless you are in it.
The Giants? Nearly no one saw these two SBs coming, and it took some real serendipity to pull them out. But that's their identity - Eli has been inconsistent from game to game, year to year; and Jints Central is a stodgy, old organization that still uses rotary phones.
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.
Further, the best team of the era was the 2008 team that ran out of gas versus the ******.
He gives you everything he has and says and does all the right things by the team.
Assessing him though can be confoundingly difficult. He's maddeningly inconsistent. From game to game, or quarter to quarter. You have two of the greatest SB runs in the history of the game. On the other side you have things like zero playoff wins outside of those two years and leading the league in INTs 3x. Even in those SB years, you have disasters of games during the season, but perfection during the runs. You have an excessive number of extremely ugly prime time performances. But you also have times like in 2015 where he carried the team. Or countless dramatic 4th quarter comeback wins. He's shown brilliance and poise, but also moments of skittish and ineptitude. But he's also been an ironman of health in contrast to a team around him that for years stood among the most injured in the league. He lacks mobility but avoids sacks through quick decisions and the ball coming out quickly. He's a leader by example not a vocal one who pumps up the troops for a big game.
We can go on and on. What I will say is this. Before Eli, there were many years where I knew the team did not have a shot. We were bad and there was little hope of being any more than mediocre. Since Eli's rookie year, I can't say that has ever truly been the case. Yes, there have been years where I didn't think they would be good, but there was always hope. Many of their best seasons, in fact, came without expectations --similarly, many of their worse seasons came when expectations were high. When a guy has won two SBs like he has, in as unlikely a manner, there is always hope for your team. Even now, at the end of his career, coming off a 3 win season, you would have to be a fool to count them/him out. Despite the ups and downs, as a player, that's what I think I'll remember about him most.
However the Giants made a crucial error signing Plaxico Burress to an extension instead of trying to trade him. They'd looked the other way on 3 years of his bullshit (remember Steve Smith's quotes on him), and eventually it blew up in their faces.
The two runs were arguably the best of any SB, but the Giants blew it from a dynasty perspective. The ‘08 and ‘10 teams were good enough to win it all. Then there’s other factors like Coughlin’s usual second half collapse, injuries in 05/06, the Sheridan debacle in 09, and then Reese’s shitty drafts around 11.
Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to ‘07 and ‘11 I’ll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv
Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to ‘07 and ‘11 I’ll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv
It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.
Eli basically stood on his head in 2011. Cruz and Nicks and JPP Â
Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to ‘07 and ‘11 I’ll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv
It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.
As it should be for many other magical runs since Plan B. Of course it was magical, but referring to our magical runs as implicitly meaning it JUST HAPPENED TO US AND US ALONE is kinda disingenous, imo..
Also, our final records for the aforementioned SB years Â
Only 9-7 team to ever win the title. Only team to have been outscored during the regular season to ever win the title. I'm going to guess they're the only champ to have conceded 400+ points during the season, too.
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
Eli on Shaun O’Hara’s comments from the weekend that the Giants wasted Eli’s prime: “I don’t look at it that way. I appreciate everything the Giants have done and I’m excited about being there this year and taking advantage of this year.”
Quote:
On the support he got from O’Hara and Justin Tuck: “They’re teammates and I won championships with both of them so I think those guys are always loyal, but that’s not the way I look at it. I still think I have some peak years left, so we can make it right.”
Only 9-7 team to ever win the title. Only team to have been outscored during the regular season to ever win the title. I'm going to guess they're the only champ to have conceded 400+ points during the season, too.
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
Technically yes, but for a controversial TD call in SB XLIII, the 9-7 Cards would have been world champs..
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
I not only agree with these Giant legends, but I’ll go on record saying, Eli will prove them right this season. There have been knowledgeable fans yelling for offensive line help here for years. Every team has holes. Does Eli need a better line then Russell Wilson? That’s not even a question.
I saw the shell shocked, ducking Eli that you saw last year. That will end. Eli’s typical Sunday, 2nd half, Down 14, sacked 6 times, wacked on the last two plays, And a free 300lb linemen bearing down on you. And did I forget to say your coach benched you for Geno Smith? Who wouldn’t duck?
Three new offensive Linemen and Barkley. Ducking, skittish Eli is a thing of the past. Get ready for the resurrection.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
I HATE that talking point. What does it say about the other teams that competed for the championship that season? Would they too have been the "worst teams to ever win a championship" considering how much trouble they had with the Giants during the regular season in 2011? The Giants beat the best team in the AFC (Patriots) on their homefield that year. The Giants lost to the Packers (#1 seed in NFC) on a FG as time expired during the regular season. They lost to the 49ers (#2 seed in NFC) by 7 points in San Francisco, yet had the ball inside the 10 yard-line with a chance to tie in the final minute of the game.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The 2011 team had a lot of guys banged up during the year. Things really didn't come together until everyone got on the field for the Championship run.
The team that navigated through those playoffs was quite good. So this whole "worst team to ever win a title" nonsense is nothing other than gross hyperbole. Give me a break.
The Giants beat a 15-1 Packers team on the road, a 49ers team with an absolutely punishing defense in absolute slop, and capped it off by beating Belichick and Brady in the Super Bowl.. for a second time.
The 2011 team was wildly inconsistent during the course of that season, but once they were firing on all cylinders, they played really, really well. They earned that trophy.
But admitting that means you have to give credit to Eli, and we all know how much "bee dubs" simply refuses to do so...
Every team that's won it, earned it. It's just that of all the teams that have won it, the 2011 Giants are the worst. I wouldn't point to that team and say, "That right there is an example of how a team should be built." It's a more than fair statement to make in the context of a conversation about how management has performed during Eli Manning's career.
they really had put it all together, from a team perspective, come playoff time.
The Offense, Defense and Specials had their ups and downs during those regular seasons, but all 3 units really were firing on all cylinders during the playoffs. All contributing at key points in those games...which is why they didn't lose any I guess.
And, of course, Eli was special in both playoff runs as been mentioned countless times...
He was great that season. And once the D stepped up their game, we were going to be a tough out. People forget, but that team started out 6-2 & beat the Pats in Foxboro in early November. That was a worthy champion.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I think some of you can't really describe the difference between Â
"shell shocked" "happy feet" and justifiably speeding up the internal play clock because your line is the worst its been your entire career and has little consistency from drive to drive. The former is some incurable disease that Eli somehow contracted and the latter is simply playing in a shit situation. I tend to think its simply the latter.
When I think of wasted primes/careers I think Marino and B. Sanders Â
Even Aaron Rodgers, who is twice the QB Eli is with half the number of rings.
I love Eli. He’s an all-time Giant great and possible HOFer but he’s got 2 rings. And he was a top 5 QB for only a few years in his career, at most. Arguably, just once.
Let’s be happier about things.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
Holy shit if there was any doubt you are a very dim bulb it has been cemented on this thread...
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
"shell shocked" "happy feet" and justifiably speeding up the internal play clock because your line is the worst its been your entire career and has little consistency from drive to drive. The former is some incurable disease that Eli somehow contracted and the latter is simply playing in a shit situation. I tend to think its simply the latter.
I have zero doubts, with his present arsenal, that Eli, still healthy with a strong arm, can be clutch Eli again, EXCEPT for the POSSIBILITY of PTSD, through little fault of his own. I hope your “latter” is the correct one. If it is, just watch..
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
Agreed. I would throw in the recent winners as well. There are no real powerhouses. A Foles led Philly team, a flawed NE team that should have lost to an unremarkable Atlanta team, a lopsided Broncos team. You can quibble here or there, but are any of these teams really on a different level than the '11 team? They may have had better regular seasons, but once that team got healthy and came together I certainly don't agree. Their path to and through the SB I would suggest they beat more than one team arguably better than any of the three I've listed.
You’re wasting your time with my offline buddy, bw. Â
What is Ohara and Tuck smoking? If any team wasted their qb's prime years is the Packers. Bad defense for a long time, injuries to the oline...Dude play full season missing both starting tackles and still made playoffs and played great. No run game.
ARodgers played great when the Packers put an average product around him. That is wasting a qb's prime years
Eli has played bad and requires All Pro talent to function while making over 20 million a season
a player's prime years, you can point to tons of examples in the salary cap era.
You could say Indy wasted Peyton's prime by fielding a non-competitive D
You could say the same about Brees. Two years the Saints had the worst D in the league
You could say the Lions wasted Barry Sanders prime
You could say that the Vikings wasted AP's prime by never having a successful QB/WR combo to go with him
The list goes on and on.
What I know is Eli has 2 rings. The folly are fans who expected the team to have more. Romo has none on a team fans here usually marvel at the construct of. The Redskins have a long drought. We talk about Eli's prime being wasted as his contempories like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Ryan have less titles to show.
I've had plenty of good football conversations with bw since he's returned - but his perspective on the Giants really does baffle me. He talks about them like they're the most incompetent franchise in pro sports and the amount of dislike for Eli (not just now, when he's declining, but the entire body of work) is staggering.
What Eli is right now, in 2018, is absolutely up for debate.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
I have no problem with people who think Eli is done, wanted to draft a QB, move on, etc - I didn't necessarily feel exactly the same way, but I get that.
How anyone could harbor dislike for Eli in general as a Giants fan at this point is just really difficult to understand. Doesn't sound like much of a Giants fan, really.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
Correction: “...that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of sports.”
You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
So you believe he has had enough talent surrounding him the last 6 years to make a playoff/SB run?
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
RE: RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level Â
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
Well so does NYSports1..... so it could have applied to him.
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
Well, this '11 team with these "star" players went 9-7 again the following year. Only they weren't so fortunate to back into the playoffs again. So they couldn't catch lightening in a bottle again.
However, I agree - to the victor goes the spoils. They took down some big teams. That is certainly worth applauding.
But stripped down, this was a team that just got hot at the right time. And really haven't/weren't able to duplicate anything remotely similar since. Think that speaks volumes...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.
A stunning post? Really? The team was 9-7.
"Premier regular season by Eli"? He had a decent rating of 93 but threw 16 INTs to 29TDs, less than 2:1 ratio. That's some definition of "premier"...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
I would say it differently - I expose ownership.
I actually love Jints Central. They are sweet, old men trying their damnest to do things the "Giants Way". Whatever the hell that is...
is that we know Eli can go big game hunting as well as anyone. If we'd been more consistent just making the playoffs he could have gotten us some more big wins. Even in the 2016 playoffs he came out great in Green Bay before the wide receivers completely shit the bed.
But to make the playoffs only 5 times in 14 years in this mess of a division...
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
The proof is in the record, in the point differential, and in the points allowed. The Giants are huge outliers in all three categories amongst the Super Bowl champions.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways Â
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
Your chronology is basically right. The 2011 team was a team all of the performance map. Then they just caught some tail winds that took them to a result absolutely NO ONE saw coming.
And that's really the point - they weren't a very reliable team for nearly the entire season. They snuck into the playoffs with the two wins at the end to finish 9-7. Then the unexpected happened.
Sure, you take it - all day. But it's also worthwhile to step back and put what happened in context. In my judgment, versus many other teams that have won the whole thing, that 2011 team was not exemplary by any measurement.
And like I said above, the following years just bear that out. An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
If by mainstream you mean those of us who enjoyed those championship teams and not piss on their accomplishments, then yes I am a mainstream fan.
An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
It was one of the greatest quarterback seasons of all time.
Statistically last in rushing, an inconsistent defense, and just decent pass protection, yet our man gets the record for most comeback wins in a season. For winning outdoors and under pressure, there was no one better. Brees and Brady, despite their gaudy statistics that year, didn't take home the lombardi.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
It's certainly helpful when posters go the extra mile Â
Which has basically been the thrust of most of your posts. That "Jints Central" is a conglomeration of idiots and fools, born with silver spoons up their asses who are "nice" men who suck at running a football team.
Yet, these idiots have lucked into catching lightning in a bottle 4 times, and at least once in each of the past 4 decades.
But you probably realized that was what I'm getting at and you just don't have a pithy retort that can be used against it.
and if there's any more ammunition to refute your bizarre dislike of Eli, you just laid it out right here:
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So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
You know what isn't part of those stats? QB play. That season alone should cement Eli as the reason the Giants won the SB and should pretty much endear any fan of the Giants to him.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
let's not forget that bw has actually praised Dan Snyder's ownership before. And on threads referring to "Jints Central" and stodgy old men.
LOL, I must have missed that - but if that's true, that's pretty damning. If you're criticizing "Jints Central" on a daily basis but somehow found ways to praise Daniel Snyder, I think the motivations are much clearer.
I don't know how there is any argument over that. Missed the playoffs in 2009-10, barely scraped by in 2011, missed them 2012-15. Out of nowhere, their shitty defense started playing well in the playoffs and their moribund running game came alive, and they got red hot. It was a lot of fun. It also came out of the clear blue sky.
The Giants are a strange franchise. They don't get into the playoffs all that much but tend to go on runs when they do.
the Giants were also dead last or in the bottom 5 in terms of health. when they finally had a healthy season (2016), where they were in the top 10, they made the playoffs.
Injuries will impact any team, but one that was weakened due to poor drafts that leaves little depth, it has a massive impact.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
Motivations? It's a football site where we debate topics, mostly, about the Giants. So I jump into conversations and like to kick it around. It really shouldn't be any BFD.
The topic was the 2011 team and how unusual their SB victory was despite so many facts suggesting they weren't a quality team. The underlying point, as I mentioned many posts earlier, was how this shows the randomness of the NFL, and how only in the NFL you could possibly get a team like the 2011 Giants team to actually win a SB. I actually find it bewildering why that makes people so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I've been getting the SKins fan thing for a long time. So the occasional references have no impact. If you want to know the gist of that, I once said I admired the way the Skins aggressively used free agency to make their team better. They obviously didn't get it right most of the time, but that was a pathway I thought was a crucial way to build a team. I think I was arguing that I'd rather spend money for a proven asset than an unproven asset - college draft choices. And this was when rookies could negotiate more freely for money versus in today's model where they are essentially locked into the draft slot.
Forget the 2011 debate - it's really not about that.
The only thing that's really bewildering is how a Giants fan can look at Eli Manning the way you do and repeatedly talk about the team like they've been one of the worst franchises in pro sports for decades.
If you praised the Redskins for that approach back then, why didn't you praise the Giants for doing it in 2016? (Fair to assume you didn't - I don't think you were even posting here that year)
What Eli is now or seasons as awful as the one we just saw are worthy of debate/criticism. I just can't really recall a single time where you had anything positive to say about "Jints Central" - which is a little weird for someone who supposedly roots for the team. But I guess that's how some fans are. The glass is always half-empty even when the team wins.
the net impact of the Redskins free agent signings didn't strengthen the team, but made them weaker.
But aggression is better than stodgy old men apparently.
The Redskins best players over the past 15 years have overwhelmingly been homegrown, whether it was RG III's one good season, Cousins, Cooley, Kerrigan, Morris, etc.
“I can only talk toward history,” Tuck said. “History tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. That’s what I’m hoping for this season.”
“I can only talk toward history,” Tuck said. “History tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. That’s what I’m hoping for this season.”
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
this
their high ol draft picks failed or etc..not like they didnt try to address the Ol..just bad talent evaluation, injury, or etc
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is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
Well, ain't that a kick in the head. I bet that NEVER happened before in the history of the NFL.
Eli should go ask his Dad if he can recall that ever happening just to be sure...
I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.
100% in agreement!! Why wasn't this talked by these guys WHILE Reese was here?
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is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
The Giants had a loyalty storm on their hands - a HC and a GM who shared blame, and they didn't want to make a move on either until it was too late. Their loyalty and desire for continuity, in general not a bad thing, proved to be their downfall here.
You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.
The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.
It isn't just because he sucks in a vacuum. He was beyond incompetent. On top of that, Eli did not fit his scheme AT ALL.
Hard to believe those 2 things were ignored, or not considered.
KG went to management in 2010 warning them that the OL and RBs were falling apart. You have to restock the cupboard BEFORE you run out of food.
I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.
It's a circular argument. Fine if you want to pat yourself on the back for having the opinion that Reese didn't do enough, but they won it all twice, in no small part to drafts and free agency moves that Reese presided over.
"Reese wasted Eli's prime years" is a NY Post quality headline. Some of the greatest players of all time never even got to a super bowl much less won two. Winning championships is supposed to be hard, not a thing that anyone can do if you just try and want to.
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Did they wait to now to express this belief?
100% in agreement!! Why wasn't this talked by these guys WHILE Reese was here?
So the scouting and the drafting would have improved if O'Hara and Tuck spoke up sooner?
Eli has had some excellent WR's to throw to. What he hasn't had is a very good OL, but that's not really "wasting" his prime, it was a failure to build a decent unit to protect him.
And for that, the GM was fired, and before him, TC was fired.
Everyone wants to make this about Eli, but really it is just a poor job at building a complete team.
It's worth pointing out, again, that the decline in the Giants OL went along with a league-wide decline in OL play. It just got harder to put together a good OL, and the Giants were affected more than most, in particular due to some early career ending injuries (to Snee, Baas, Beatty).
They won 2 Super Bowls in Eli's prime?
They won 2 Super Bowls in Eli's prime?
Yeah, this too.
If the Giants have wasted Eli's prime imagine what the Chargers have done to Rivers.
Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
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is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.
The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.
I don't disagree that Oline drafting was a key issue, I just didn't know there was math to support it...
It isn't just because he sucks in a vacuum. He was beyond incompetent. On top of that, Eli did not fit his scheme AT ALL.
Hard to believe those 2 things were ignored, or not considered.
The team wasn't exactly kicking ass before McAdoo was brought in...
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But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.
Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
Reese drafted 1 OL player (Will Beatty, 2nd Round) with a premium pick until Pugh in ‘13. 7 years.
It may not rise to the level of malice, but it was clear Reese valued other positions and chose to build the roster around skill position players.
It wasn’t just failed draft picks and FA’s — it was neglect until he had no choice but to force picks at the position.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??
I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.
Are there two of you?
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In comment 13988384 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.
Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.
No, I agree, was just supporting your point. Polian had two HoF passers for a combined *24 years* - and had exactly 1 SB trophy to show for it.
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is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.
Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.
Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??
I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.
Are there two of you?
Huh?
You may have me confused with someone else. I had made it quite known I wanted them to draft Darnold or Rosen this year. I wanted a QB badly. I figured Eli would get 1 more year and the successor would take over next year unless we pulled one out of the rabbit's hat.
I also stated that if we drafted a rookie, he should play as soon as we were eliminated from the playoffs.
The other stuff you said is something I absolutely did not say. I am a huge Eli fan, but I have made it known all offseason that it was best for them to find a successor.
Think you dropped the ball on this one Googs, no offense.
I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.
Not a problem. Even his most ardent supporters can be rational at times.... haha
2014, things were still bad, but he also had Odell who was amazing and covered up a lot of the crap and I would say 2014 and 2015 were good years for him and the offense. It was McAdoo's system, but we forget that things worked well at this time. INTs were down, yardage was up, TDs were up, and Odell opened up things for the rest of the offense. The line was not good but the offense was designed for short throws and the ball coming out quick. What was wasted here is the defense. To say things were wasted for Eli in those years because McAdoo's scheme is revisionist history. The offense was good and Eli was playing at a probowl level.
In these years the team was investing in offense. In every year from 2012 - 2017 the Giants used their 1st round pick on Offense except 2016 where they did use a 2nd on Shepard. In 2012 and 2014 they used both a first and 2nd pick on O. 2013 and 2015 they used their top pick on an OT with 2015 being a top 10 choice. Yes, Flowers wasn't good, but if you recall, he was not planned to be thrown in the fire at OLT - they had Beatty who occupied OLT during 2011 SB and Flowers was going to ease into the position after getting work in on the Right.
2016 and 2017 I am not going to get into extensively. The Oline was severely challenged and teams had figured out how to mitigate Odell and McAdoo was horrible. That said, the Defense was great in 2016 and carried the team to playoffs. Expectations were super high heading into the seasons a year ago and just about everyone had this perspective. Despite how bad things were, I do not give Eli a full pass for those years. They were not his best years. It seems to me Eli's confidence was shaken.
That said, I think we are going to see an energized Eli this season. It is not all about the new talent or play calling either. The faith this group has put in him is already showing signs of paying off. Eli could be in position for one of his best seasons as a pro.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
The truth is the team missed the playoffs far too often for a team that had a franchise QB at the helm. I don't think that's easily written off onto Reese. There were times the talent was there and the results weren't. Then there were times that the talent wasn't at the level it should have been.
I don't think Eli deserves a full pass either - he had plenty of games (if not entire stretches) where he just didn't play as well as he could have.
What it seems like in hindsight was a team that suffered through an abnormally high number of injuries also had a QB who could be inconsistent at times, and a front office that was at odds with itself (Reese and TC). Combine it all, and you had an underperforming team for large stretches during that run.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.
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No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.
How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.
If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.
Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
Agreed. And if not for some bad luck (and some dumb luck) in 2008, they probably would have won a 3rd.
Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.
Yep.. just look at our own division, too... since Eli became a full time starter.
2005: NYG
2006: PHI
2007: DAL
2008: NYG
2009: DAL
2010: PHI
2011: NYG
2012: WSH
2013: PHI
2014: DAL
2015: WSH
2016: DAL
2017: PHI
Our division has been a carousel his entire career. Not a single back to back division champion in 13 years, which I think speaks to the parity in the NFL a great deal.
So, its not just the Giants.
HOWEVER, just because we don't know the specific reasons for the decisions that have been made, it is still fair for fans to conclude that a series of losing years is the result of bad decision-making by the owners/managers of the team.
Furthermore, I have absolutely no obligation to tell the Giants what it SHOULD have done in order not to stink, but I have every right to point out that they DO stink. It is THEIR fault not MINE that they stink, and they have brass balls for asking the same ticket prices for a 3-13 club as for a 11-5 club.
The story of the 2012-2017 Giants is a lot more complicated than O’Hara has ever acknowledged, and his early decline in 2009-2010 was part of it.
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is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
If that were actually true (the "scared" part), doesn't that feed into the overall thesis of the piece. Being "scared" would be 100% a function of mismanagement in building on offensive line.
I'd say yes and no. He's scared because the OL hasn't been very good and Eli does not like getting hit(what 35-40 year old does??). Part of that is on him though. Despite not wanting to get hit, its a part of the game. You need to be strong in the pocket and willing to take the punishment. I think there is some truth that management wasted Eli's golden years, but because of Eli, the margin for error is very thin. He needed a perfect situation around him.
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is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.
Well said. For me, the chances and WTF throws he makes isn't the problem. Thats part of what made him successful. He's a bit of a gun slinger. Its the second part for me, thats my concern.
The story of the 2012-2017 Giants is a lot more complicated than O’Hara has ever acknowledged, and his early decline in 2009-2010 was part of it.
Probably the biggest disaster in all of that was the Giants strategy of trying to ride the '11 title team as far as they could, when it was apparent that the wheels were falling off.
This season should be really fun to watch though, barring injury (which unfortunately for us, is more of a common occurence)
This offense can be really fun. I think Eli is going to be better than a lot of people think.
An asshole says what...??
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
A team that wasted a qb is Miami with Marino or Bert Jones with the Colts. Hell then Rodgers had been wasted by the Packers this decade by this silly definition.
Any feelings of pity or remorse for Eli is utter nonsense.
He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.
By contrast we never had any QB issues. No injuries, no controversies, no need to spend premium picks at the position. Yet from 2012-2017:
- 42-54 overall record
- 14-22 divisional record
- 0 divisional titles
I agree with Tuck and O'Hara. The management of the team has been poor for years, and if any one of many things had gone differently in 2011 (the Cruz fumble in Arizona, Romo missing Austin, Eli pulling rabbits out of hats all year) we're talking about an 0-2 playoff record in 10 seasons since the Tyree catch.
Eli's record versus his draft contemporaries:
Eli: 111-103
Roethlisberger: 135-63
Rivers: 106-86
I don't think either of those guys is appreciably better than Eli, if at all. So then why is Roethlisberger +72, Rivers +20, and Eli +8?
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
It is absolutely clear Eli is not going to be a game-changer or savior at this stage of his career. He is going to need better players around him for the Offense to be successful. In fact, he probably needs even better players than he is at this point.
And it still may not be enough, but that is the road this regime is taking...at least in 2018.
- Joint statement issued by Dan Marino and Jim Kelly
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but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
Actually he's not. He has literally no idea what or how the qb position is played
2013 - 10th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 7th
2016 - 5th
2017 - 13th
Aint to shabby....
Actually its not spot on. The point both are making is that the last 6 years we wasted an opportunity of having a franchise QB and surrounded him with borderline NFL talented who started. Injuries took a toll on some players. But many players who started between 2013-2017 were either castoffs, end of the road players, or those who couldnt get a job after the year it was over.
That is what it means by wasted. We surrounded Eli, the mainstay of the team, with bad players. Did Eli play a hand in some of the games - sure. But outside OBJ - he was surrounded by many players who would be lucky toget a job - and those players started.
This isn’t even about Eli it’s about the fact this argument applies to tons of players. Just a terrible tone of argument.
I think your missing the overall point of all this. The Giants brass has failed the Giants the last 6 years, its just that those 6 years was when Eli was in his prime and was the mainstay of his team.
He's a guy who still looks at Giants ownership as if it is the 70's.
He consistently uses the term "Jints Central" derisively as if 4 SB's came by sheer luck.
He has disliked Eli since draft day. And admittingly still holds draft day against him, even though he was an integral part of two titles.
I think his biggest problem is that Eli won them for the Giants instead of the Redskins.....
Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.
Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.
I agree with this 100%. Thats why you see so much turn over in the league. When I look at this premesis of the thread. I think they are stating since 2012-2013, the Giants have failed to put a quailty team out with a franchise QB. The Giants havent failed Eli in his career, that would be ridiculous. The Giants just have failed to put on a good team the last half of his career.
He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.
Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?
The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.
Let me help you here. The Packers get to the playoffs because of Rodgers, not because of Ted Thompson.
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
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but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.
It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?
The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.
You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
Which accurate part?
Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?
The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.
What great Rbs has Eli ever had? Forget the last 6 years. The best RB he had was over a decade ago. And guess what Eddie Lacy would be the 2nd best RB Eli ever played with.
Wide Recievers? Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb? Yeah - bums.
As far as the OL playing with a guy like Brett Hundley.... Brett Hundley sucks balls. He sucks so bad that the Packers traded for Kizer in the offseason.
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.
If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.
If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.
This would probably be more accurate since OBJ has been the best player on the team since 2014. However since they asked two of Eli's old teammates - the question was centered around him. I think a lot of his old teammates are still VERY loyal to him - as we saw during his benching last year.
Eli marshalled two teams to championships by playing out of his mind in the playoffs. And given that they won those championships, you could easily say that both of those teams underachieved in the regular season (with Eli at the helm throughout).
In four other years in which he had teams good enough to make the playoffs, he was 0-4.
I get the love for Eli and I love him too, but the amount of people who can't look at him objectively and see that other than those two runs, he's been as average as he is durable is a prime example of seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
That is a good question. You can essentially bank on the Packers having a chance to win the SB largely because of Rodgers. It's like a warm blanket. And you can't win it unless you are in it.
The Giants? Nearly no one saw these two SBs coming, and it took some real serendipity to pull them out. But that's their identity - Eli has been inconsistent from game to game, year to year; and Jints Central is a stodgy, old organization that still uses rotary phones.
And incorrectly, but whatever.
Guy just can't help himself.
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would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.
Further, the best team of the era was the 2008 team that ran out of gas versus the ******.
No one is saying the Giants shouldve won more Super Bowls than 2, but to have Eli Manning in his prime and miss the playoffs 6 out of 7 years?
And to those calling BS on O’Hara & Tuck: what about the McAdoo hire? How was that in any way good for Eli?
and only one ring ?
or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
Please don't state that was the "plan" in the years we won it and the ones we didnt'...
Magical is the right term...
Assessing him though can be confoundingly difficult. He's maddeningly inconsistent. From game to game, or quarter to quarter. You have two of the greatest SB runs in the history of the game. On the other side you have things like zero playoff wins outside of those two years and leading the league in INTs 3x. Even in those SB years, you have disasters of games during the season, but perfection during the runs. You have an excessive number of extremely ugly prime time performances. But you also have times like in 2015 where he carried the team. Or countless dramatic 4th quarter comeback wins. He's shown brilliance and poise, but also moments of skittish and ineptitude. But he's also been an ironman of health in contrast to a team around him that for years stood among the most injured in the league. He lacks mobility but avoids sacks through quick decisions and the ball coming out quickly. He's a leader by example not a vocal one who pumps up the troops for a big game.
We can go on and on. What I will say is this. Before Eli, there were many years where I knew the team did not have a shot. We were bad and there was little hope of being any more than mediocre. Since Eli's rookie year, I can't say that has ever truly been the case. Yes, there have been years where I didn't think they would be good, but there was always hope. Many of their best seasons, in fact, came without expectations --similarly, many of their worse seasons came when expectations were high. When a guy has won two SBs like he has, in as unlikely a manner, there is always hope for your team. Even now, at the end of his career, coming off a 3 win season, you would have to be a fool to count them/him out. Despite the ups and downs, as a player, that's what I think I'll remember about him most.
It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.
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Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to ‘07 and ‘11 I’ll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv
It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.
As it should be for many other magical runs since Plan B. Of course it was magical, but referring to our magical runs as implicitly meaning it JUST HAPPENED TO US AND US ALONE is kinda disingenous, imo..
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
Technically yes, but for a controversial TD call in SB XLIII, the 9-7 Cards would have been world champs..
No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
I saw the shell shocked, ducking Eli that you saw last year. That will end. Eli’s typical Sunday, 2nd half, Down 14, sacked 6 times, wacked on the last two plays, And a free 300lb linemen bearing down on you. And did I forget to say your coach benched you for Geno Smith? Who wouldn’t duck?
Three new offensive Linemen and Barkley. Ducking, skittish Eli is a thing of the past. Get ready for the resurrection.
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No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
I HATE that talking point. What does it say about the other teams that competed for the championship that season? Would they too have been the "worst teams to ever win a championship" considering how much trouble they had with the Giants during the regular season in 2011? The Giants beat the best team in the AFC (Patriots) on their homefield that year. The Giants lost to the Packers (#1 seed in NFC) on a FG as time expired during the regular season. They lost to the 49ers (#2 seed in NFC) by 7 points in San Francisco, yet had the ball inside the 10 yard-line with a chance to tie in the final minute of the game.
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No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The team that navigated through those playoffs was quite good. So this whole "worst team to ever win a title" nonsense is nothing other than gross hyperbole. Give me a break.
The Giants beat a 15-1 Packers team on the road, a 49ers team with an absolutely punishing defense in absolute slop, and capped it off by beating Belichick and Brady in the Super Bowl.. for a second time.
The 2011 team was wildly inconsistent during the course of that season, but once they were firing on all cylinders, they played really, really well. They earned that trophy.
But admitting that means you have to give credit to Eli, and we all know how much "bee dubs" simply refuses to do so...
What's the difference?
They're a championship team. You can spin it any way you want, no one wins a free Lombardi in this league.
The Offense, Defense and Specials had their ups and downs during those regular seasons, but all 3 units really were firing on all cylinders during the playoffs. All contributing at key points in those games...which is why they didn't lose any I guess.
And, of course, Eli was special in both playoff runs as been mentioned countless times...
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For dep and Britt
An asshole says what...??
A douche was saying??
This is so very true.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I love Eli. He’s an all-time Giant great and possible HOFer but he’s got 2 rings. And he was a top 5 QB for only a few years in his career, at most. Arguably, just once.
Let’s be happier about things.
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No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
Holy shit if there was any doubt you are a very dim bulb it has been cemented on this thread...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
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That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.
I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.
So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the ‘11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.
I came down to the ‘82 Skins, ‘00 Ravens, ‘02 Bucs, ‘12 Ravens, and the ‘15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.
Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.
Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )
The ‘02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that it’s hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.
The ‘12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didn’t see it.
I threw in the ‘15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.
In my judgment, those are the teams the ‘11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the ‘12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...
So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
10-6
15-1 on the road
13-3 on the road
13-3 Brady and Belichick
In route to winning a SB. Every other SB team in history would have done so.
I have zero doubts, with his present arsenal, that Eli, still healthy with a strong arm, can be clutch Eli again, EXCEPT for the POSSIBILITY of PTSD, through little fault of his own. I hope your “latter” is the correct one. If it is, just watch..
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
This. The lack of attention to the line was negligence.
you are insufferable
By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
Ok, movin’ on..😎
ARodgers played great when the Packers put an average product around him. That is wasting a qb's prime years
Eli has played bad and requires All Pro talent to function while making over 20 million a season
You could say Indy wasted Peyton's prime by fielding a non-competitive D
You could say the same about Brees. Two years the Saints had the worst D in the league
You could say the Lions wasted Barry Sanders prime
You could say that the Vikings wasted AP's prime by never having a successful QB/WR combo to go with him
The list goes on and on.
What I know is Eli has 2 rings. The folly are fans who expected the team to have more. Romo has none on a team fans here usually marvel at the construct of. The Redskins have a long drought. We talk about Eli's prime being wasted as his contempories like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Ryan have less titles to show.
What Eli is right now, in 2018, is absolutely up for debate.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
I have no problem with people who think Eli is done, wanted to draft a QB, move on, etc - I didn't necessarily feel exactly the same way, but I get that.
How anyone could harbor dislike for Eli in general as a Giants fan at this point is just really difficult to understand. Doesn't sound like much of a Giants fan, really.
What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.
Correction: “...that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of sports.”
So you believe he has had enough talent surrounding him the last 6 years to make a playoff/SB run?
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
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of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.
No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.
The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
Well so does NYSports1..... so it could have applied to him.
I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.
You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
Well, this '11 team with these "star" players went 9-7 again the following year. Only they weren't so fortunate to back into the playoffs again. So they couldn't catch lightening in a bottle again.
However, I agree - to the victor goes the spoils. They took down some big teams. That is certainly worth applauding.
But stripped down, this was a team that just got hot at the right time. And really haven't/weren't able to duplicate anything remotely similar since. Think that speaks volumes...
Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I don’t know where to start!
Well, you didn't see my endless debate about Larry Centers being better than Tiki Barber back in '98 and '99. ;)
A stunning post? Really? The team was 9-7.
"Premier regular season by Eli"? He had a decent rating of 93 but threw 16 INTs to 29TDs, less than 2:1 ratio. That's some definition of "premier"...
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So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.
I would say it differently - I expose ownership.
I actually love Jints Central. They are sweet, old men trying their damnest to do things the "Giants Way". Whatever the hell that is...
But to make the playoffs only 5 times in 14 years in this mess of a division...
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No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.
The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.
Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
Your chronology is basically right. The 2011 team was a team all of the performance map. Then they just caught some tail winds that took them to a result absolutely NO ONE saw coming.
And that's really the point - they weren't a very reliable team for nearly the entire season. They snuck into the playoffs with the two wins at the end to finish 9-7. Then the unexpected happened.
Sure, you take it - all day. But it's also worthwhile to step back and put what happened in context. In my judgment, versus many other teams that have won the whole thing, that 2011 team was not exemplary by any measurement.
And like I said above, the following years just bear that out. An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
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So the point remains. That ‘11 team was not a stellar team at all. And it’s hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
you are insufferable
It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
If by mainstream you mean those of us who enjoyed those championship teams and not piss on their accomplishments, then yes I am a mainstream fan.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
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An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
It's fucking baffling, man. I don't get it.
Statistically last in rushing, an inconsistent defense, and just decent pass protection, yet our man gets the record for most comeback wins in a season. For winning outdoors and under pressure, there was no one better. Brees and Brady, despite their gaudy statistics that year, didn't take home the lombardi.
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
Which has basically been the thrust of most of your posts. That "Jints Central" is a conglomeration of idiots and fools, born with silver spoons up their asses who are "nice" men who suck at running a football team.
Yet, these idiots have lucked into catching lightning in a bottle 4 times, and at least once in each of the past 4 decades.
But you probably realized that was what I'm getting at and you just don't have a pithy retort that can be used against it.
And you question my understanding of the game.
You know what isn't part of those stats? QB play. That season alone should cement Eli as the reason the Giants won the SB and should pretty much endear any fan of the Giants to him.
Emphasis on "fan of the Giants"......
Quote:
For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.
You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.
In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.
"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?
And you question my understanding of the game.
Well done.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
LOL, I must have missed that - but if that's true, that's pretty damning. If you're criticizing "Jints Central" on a daily basis but somehow found ways to praise Daniel Snyder, I think the motivations are much clearer.
But there was a small group of posters who insisted that the Giants needed to be like Snyder and Jones instead of conservative old men.....
The Giants are a strange franchise. They don't get into the playoffs all that much but tend to go on runs when they do.
Injuries will impact any team, but one that was weakened due to poor drafts that leaves little depth, it has a massive impact.
I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.
And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.
But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.
Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
Motivations? It's a football site where we debate topics, mostly, about the Giants. So I jump into conversations and like to kick it around. It really shouldn't be any BFD.
The topic was the 2011 team and how unusual their SB victory was despite so many facts suggesting they weren't a quality team. The underlying point, as I mentioned many posts earlier, was how this shows the randomness of the NFL, and how only in the NFL you could possibly get a team like the 2011 Giants team to actually win a SB. I actually find it bewildering why that makes people so uncomfortable.
Believe me, I've been getting the SKins fan thing for a long time. So the occasional references have no impact. If you want to know the gist of that, I once said I admired the way the Skins aggressively used free agency to make their team better. They obviously didn't get it right most of the time, but that was a pathway I thought was a crucial way to build a team. I think I was arguing that I'd rather spend money for a proven asset than an unproven asset - college draft choices. And this was when rookies could negotiate more freely for money versus in today's model where they are essentially locked into the draft slot.
The only thing that's really bewildering is how a Giants fan can look at Eli Manning the way you do and repeatedly talk about the team like they've been one of the worst franchises in pro sports for decades.
If you praised the Redskins for that approach back then, why didn't you praise the Giants for doing it in 2016? (Fair to assume you didn't - I don't think you were even posting here that year)
What Eli is now or seasons as awful as the one we just saw are worthy of debate/criticism. I just can't really recall a single time where you had anything positive to say about "Jints Central" - which is a little weird for someone who supposedly roots for the team. But I guess that's how some fans are. The glass is always half-empty even when the team wins.
But aggression is better than stodgy old men apparently.
The Redskins best players over the past 15 years have overwhelmingly been homegrown, whether it was RG III's one good season, Cousins, Cooley, Kerrigan, Morris, etc.