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Tuck, OHara: Giants wasted Eli's prime

exiled : 6/11/2018 6:58 am
I know, another Eli post. Whatever.

Couldn't agree more with these guys. It's pissed me off year after year, the Giants' inability to field an offense that even remotely suited Eli's strengths.
Link - ( New Window )
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Ira : 6/11/2018 7:03 am : link
Quote:
ďI agree with him,Ē Tuck said. ďWe all know what Eli can do when he is healthy and when he has comparable athletes around him. I donít think he had those. Anything other than that, you are just lying to yourself.Ē

ďI can only talk toward history,Ē Tuck said. ďHistory tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. Thatís what Iím hoping for this season.Ē
.  
Ira : 6/11/2018 7:04 am : link
Quote:
ďI agree with him,Ē Tuck said. ďWe all know what Eli can do when he is healthy and when he has comparable athletes around him. I donít think he had those. Anything other than that, you are just lying to yourself.Ē

ďI can only talk toward history,Ē Tuck said. ďHistory tells me that every time Eli has been doubted, every time he has been put in situations like this, not only has he responded but the team has responded around him. Thatís what Iím hoping for this season.Ē
Oops. Sorry for the double post  
Ira : 6/11/2018 7:04 am : link
.
They are 100% correct  
blueblood : 6/11/2018 7:22 am : link
They waited too long to build an serviceable offensive line and a running game to support Eli..
the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
Giantsfan79 : 6/11/2018 7:26 am : link
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.
Why  
joeinpa : 6/11/2018 7:28 am : link
Did they wait to now to express this belief?
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
EricJ : 6/11/2018 7:28 am : link
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.


The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
micky : 6/11/2018 7:31 am : link
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.


this

their high ol draft picks failed or etc..not like they didnt try to address the Ol..just bad talent evaluation, injury, or etc
RE: RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
Bill L : 6/11/2018 7:32 am : link
In comment 13988326 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.



The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).
They rode the Super Bowls, plain and simple. And, I think most people would have done the same. I look at the endings of Bird, McHale, and Parish and think that is more the norm than the exception. The exception was shipping Garnett and Pierce to Brooklyn.
I meant rode the management team, not the players  
Bill L : 6/11/2018 7:33 am : link
in this case.
Oíhara  
nygnyy274 : 6/11/2018 7:43 am : link
Was apart of the 2009 team that started 5-0 and still missed the playoffs and the 2010 disaster so he should keep quiet. That 2010 could of went to the super bowl if they got in.
This thread is like the bat signal  
figgy2989 : 6/11/2018 7:47 am : link
For dep and Britt
Wait, what?? You mean a team had a really good QB  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 8:17 am : link
but the rest of the team around him wasn't? And because of it there were wasted years?

Well, ain't that a kick in the head. I bet that NEVER happened before in the history of the NFL.

Eli should go ask his Dad if he can recall that ever happening just to be sure...
I feel like the guy who has been spitting in the wind  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 6/11/2018 8:27 am : link
for all these years only to now see the wind direction change.

I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.
RE: Why  
JohnB : 6/11/2018 8:29 am : link
In comment 13988324 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Did they wait to now to express this belief?


100% in agreement!! Why wasn't this talked by these guys WHILE Reese was here?
RE: RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 8:35 am : link
In comment 13988326 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.



The true failure occurred at the top. John Mara either not realizing that Reese needed to go OR delaying the decision to move onto another GM for whatever reason (loyalty, false hope, etc).


The Giants had a loyalty storm on their hands - a HC and a GM who shared blame, and they didn't want to make a move on either until it was too late. Their loyalty and desire for continuity, in general not a bad thing, proved to be their downfall here.
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
Scuzzlebutt : 6/11/2018 8:37 am : link
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.


You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.

The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.
This is spot on.  
mittenedman : 6/11/2018 8:41 am : link
Ben McAdoo is the single biggest mistake I've ever seen an organization make.

It isn't just because he sucks in a vacuum. He was beyond incompetent. On top of that, Eli did not fit his scheme AT ALL.

Hard to believe those 2 things were ignored, or not considered.
The OL picks were  
mittenedman : 6/11/2018 8:42 am : link
reactionary, and too little too late.

KG went to management in 2010 warning them that the OL and RBs were falling apart. You have to restock the cupboard BEFORE you run out of food.
RE: I feel like the guy who has been spitting in the wind  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 8:44 am : link
In comment 13988353 Thatís Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
for all these years only to now see the wind direction change.

I have been posting this on BBI since 2013 that Reese ruined Eli's best years. Got a lot of criticism for that. Interesting how the view changes now that guys like Tuck and O'Hara agree.


It's a circular argument. Fine if you want to pat yourself on the back for having the opinion that Reese didn't do enough, but they won it all twice, in no small part to drafts and free agency moves that Reese presided over.

"Reese wasted Eli's prime years" is a NY Post quality headline. Some of the greatest players of all time never even got to a super bowl much less won two. Winning championships is supposed to be hard, not a thing that anyone can do if you just try and want to.
RE: RE: Why  
RinR : 6/11/2018 8:48 am : link
In comment 13988358 JohnB said:
Quote:
In comment 13988324 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Did they wait to now to express this belief?



100% in agreement!! Why wasn't this talked by these guys WHILE Reese was here?


So the scouting and the drafting would have improved if O'Hara and Tuck spoke up sooner?
The Giants..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2018 8:48 am : link
may have wasted Eli's prime, but it wasn't for a lack of trying - they simply made poor moves.

Eli has had some excellent WR's to throw to. What he hasn't had is a very good OL, but that's not really "wasting" his prime, it was a failure to build a decent unit to protect him.

And for that, the GM was fired, and before him, TC was fired.

Everyone wants to make this about Eli, but really it is just a poor job at building a complete team.
Just pointing to the OL picks they made in a vacuum is silly  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 8:51 am : link
They spent quite a bit of FA money on the OL as well. It just didn't pan out.

It's worth pointing out, again, that the decline in the Giants OL went along with a league-wide decline in OL play. It just got harder to put together a good OL, and the Giants were affected more than most, in particular due to some early career ending injuries (to Snee, Baas, Beatty).
Doesn't take into account or even mention the #1 problem. Injuries.  
BillT : 6/11/2018 8:52 am : link
The Giants ave been at or near the bottom of the league for injuries in 6 of the last 7 years I believe. The one year they were relatively healthy they went 11-5. This was a far bigger factor than draft picks, FAs or coaching.
How did the Giants  
Dnew15 : 6/11/2018 8:53 am : link
waste the years of Eli in his prime?
They won 2 Super Bowls in Eli's prime?
Also, people here swear by Bill Polian's opinion  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 8:57 am : link
But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.
RE: How did the Giants  
RinR : 6/11/2018 8:59 am : link
In comment 13988379 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
waste the years of Eli in his prime?
They won 2 Super Bowls in Eli's prime?


Yeah, this too.

If the Giants have wasted Eli's prime imagine what the Chargers have done to Rivers.
RE: Also, people here swear by Bill Polian's opinion  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 8:59 am : link
In comment 13988384 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.


Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.
RE: RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13988363 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.



You are right that the picks did not work out, but they also picked too few OL and waited too long, forcing the picks due to need....hence the bad picks.

The article says they used 7 of 56 picks on OL. That is about 12% of picks used on OL. Taking out QB, The team is comprised 24% (5/21) of OL players. We should have picked twice as many OL under Reese.


I don't disagree that Oline drafting was a key issue, I just didn't know there was math to support it...
RE: This is spot on.  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 9:02 am : link
In comment 13988366 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Ben McAdoo is the single biggest mistake I've ever seen an organization make.

It isn't just because he sucks in a vacuum. He was beyond incompetent. On top of that, Eli did not fit his scheme AT ALL.

Hard to believe those 2 things were ignored, or not considered.


The team wasn't exactly kicking ass before McAdoo was brought in...
RE: RE: Also, people here swear by Bill Polian's opinion  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 9:04 am : link
In comment 13988391 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13988384 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.



Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.


My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.
Saying they wasted his year  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 9:06 am : link
is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.

Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.

Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.
RE: the only issue I have with the tone of these posts  
WillVAB : 6/11/2018 9:10 am : link
In comment 13988323 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
is that it seems like the Giants willfully failed to build the team around Eli. They tried, it's that the draft picks and free agent signings by and large failed. It's incompetence but not malice.


Reese drafted 1 OL player (Will Beatty, 2nd Round) with a premium pick until Pugh in Ď13. 7 years.

It may not rise to the level of malice, but it was clear Reese valued other positions and chose to build the roster around skill position players.

It wasnít just failed draft picks and FAís ó it was neglect until he had no choice but to force picks at the position.
Giants  
MookGiants : 6/11/2018 9:12 am : link
offense has been shit for a while now, but its hard for me to say that his prime was wasted. The Giants wom two Super Bowls in his prime, the last 4-5 years have definitely been wasted but every single lne kf us would have signed for 1 super bowl in Elis tenure, never mind two
RE: Saying they wasted his year  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 9:12 am : link
In comment 13988406 dep026 said:
Quote:
is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.

Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.

Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.


It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??

I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.

Are there two of you?
I am of the belief that Eli  
Keith : 6/11/2018 9:17 am : link
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
RE: RE: RE: Also, people here swear by Bill Polian's opinion  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 9:18 am : link
In comment 13988403 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13988391 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13988384 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


But they only got one title out of Peyton Manning because of their failure to build any kind of defense other than Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.



Don't forget, Bill Polian also won all those Super Bowls in Buffalo... well, went to at least.



My point isn't to kill Polian, but if 2 titles with Eli is "failing", then one title with arguably the greatest passer of all time is far worse of a crime. I view two championships as a smashing success and a hell of a career, but then again I may be in the minority of modern sports fans who seem to look at championships as a minimum standard of achievement rather than a rare accomplishment that makes you legendary.


No, I agree, was just supporting your point. Polian had two HoF passers for a combined *24 years* - and had exactly 1 SB trophy to show for it.
RE: RE: Saying they wasted his year  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 9:37 am : link
In comment 13988410 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13988406 dep026 said:


Quote:


is kind of harshed. I mean its not like they didnt try. Reese and company were just not very good. They took chances on guys like Rashad Jennings, Cruz's comeback, Geoff Schwartz's of OL lore. The drafting of OL was there - just not very good.

Listen, we can say what we want about Reese. He hit a few grand slams, but he went down swinging/looking WAY too many times in the draft. He failed to find anything after the 2nd round. He couldnt find depth. And his work on finding OL/LBs well was abysmal.

Eli is 37 and may not be in his prime. But it wouldnt shock me if we can have 2-3 more good years with him. Lets just hope for the best.



It wouldn't shock you if Eli has 2-3 more good years??

I would hope not as you completely support the idea that Eli absolutely has good years left, he needs more pieces around him and that was the best strategy to pursue this offseason.

Are there two of you?


Huh?

You may have me confused with someone else. I had made it quite known I wanted them to draft Darnold or Rosen this year. I wanted a QB badly. I figured Eli would get 1 more year and the successor would take over next year unless we pulled one out of the rabbit's hat.

I also stated that if we drafted a rookie, he should play as soon as we were eliminated from the playoffs.

The other stuff you said is something I absolutely did not say. I am a huge Eli fan, but I have made it known all offseason that it was best for them to find a successor.

Think you dropped the ball on this one Googs, no offense.
RE: I am of the belief that Eli  
Bill L : 6/11/2018 9:38 am : link
In comment 13988417 Keith said:
Quote:
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.
If that were actually true (the "scared" part), doesn't that feed into the overall thesis of the piece. Being "scared" would be 100% a function of mismanagement in building on offensive line.
Ok  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 9:39 am : link
my bad...
RE: I am of the belief that Eli  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 9:39 am : link
In comment 13988417 Keith said:
Quote:
is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.


I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.
RE: Ok  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 9:40 am : link
In comment 13988450 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
my bad...


Not a problem. Even his most ardent supporters can be rational at times.... haha
Obviously they didn't do a good enough job  
UberAlias : 6/11/2018 9:40 am : link
Considering the guys who architected the team were fired. They were horrible in drafting Oline, that we can agree. But I don't buy into the poor Eli narrative. In 2011 he had great weapons in passing game and Bradshaw. 2012 he still had a lot of the SB team core but injuries settling in. By 2013 there was garbage talent there, but I will not give him a complete pass --some things were on Eli too. As bad as the talent was, I feel this was Eli's worst year as a pro.

2014, things were still bad, but he also had Odell who was amazing and covered up a lot of the crap and I would say 2014 and 2015 were good years for him and the offense. It was McAdoo's system, but we forget that things worked well at this time. INTs were down, yardage was up, TDs were up, and Odell opened up things for the rest of the offense. The line was not good but the offense was designed for short throws and the ball coming out quick. What was wasted here is the defense. To say things were wasted for Eli in those years because McAdoo's scheme is revisionist history. The offense was good and Eli was playing at a probowl level.

In these years the team was investing in offense. In every year from 2012 - 2017 the Giants used their 1st round pick on Offense except 2016 where they did use a 2nd on Shepard. In 2012 and 2014 they used both a first and 2nd pick on O. 2013 and 2015 they used their top pick on an OT with 2015 being a top 10 choice. Yes, Flowers wasn't good, but if you recall, he was not planned to be thrown in the fire at OLT - they had Beatty who occupied OLT during 2011 SB and Flowers was going to ease into the position after getting work in on the Right.

2016 and 2017 I am not going to get into extensively. The Oline was severely challenged and teams had figured out how to mitigate Odell and McAdoo was horrible. That said, the Defense was great in 2016 and carried the team to playoffs. Expectations were super high heading into the seasons a year ago and just about everyone had this perspective. Despite how bad things were, I do not give Eli a full pass for those years. They were not his best years. It seems to me Eli's confidence was shaken.

That said, I think we are going to see an energized Eli this season. It is not all about the new talent or play calling either. The faith this group has put in him is already showing signs of paying off. Eli could be in position for one of his best seasons as a pro.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 9:41 am : link
No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.

How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.

If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.

Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
I think the 'wasted prime' argument has less to do with SBs  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 9:46 am : link
and more to do with the overall competitiveness of the team during Eli's tenure.

The truth is the team missed the playoffs far too often for a team that had a franchise QB at the helm. I don't think that's easily written off onto Reese. There were times the talent was there and the results weren't. Then there were times that the talent wasn't at the level it should have been.

I don't think Eli deserves a full pass either - he had plenty of games (if not entire stretches) where he just didn't play as well as he could have.

What it seems like in hindsight was a team that suffered through an abnormally high number of injuries also had a QB who could be inconsistent at times, and a front office that was at odds with itself (Reese and TC). Combine it all, and you had an underperforming team for large stretches during that run.
Hey it happens.  
Giant John : 6/11/2018 9:49 am : link
Ask Dan Marino. Getting a team to a SB is no easy feet. He won everyone he was in and against the GOAT. Iíd say heís been a very fortunate man. Iím a fan but Iím also very happy with what he has been able to do. Heís not finished yet either.
Feet = feat  
Giant John : 6/11/2018 9:50 am : link
Sorry.
RE: .  
UberAlias : 6/11/2018 9:50 am : link
In comment 13988456 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.

How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.

If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.

Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.
Agreed. And if not for some bad luck (and some dumb luck) in 2008, they probably would have won a 3rd.

Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 9:54 am : link
In comment 13988472 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13988456 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


No matter how you spin it, I have a hard time claiming we "wasted" any part of a player who hoisted two Lombardi's here. One of which when he was at his absolute best as a pro.

How many more SB's should we have won? We have to be at least a little realistic.

If the argument is that we put a lot of crappy teams around him over the last 5 seasons or so, I'd agree with that.

Saying we "wasted" Eli's prime really doesn't make sense to me. We won a Super Bowl while he was right in the midst of it. How many other QB's that have come and gone in this league can say that? It's not exactly common or expected.

Agreed. And if not for some bad luck (and some dumb luck) in 2008, they probably would have won a 3rd.

Also, many of those bad teams were devastated with injuries. Nicks and Cruz careers were way too short. Defense always seemed to get hit hard with injuries. The talent was not good but injuries made things even worse.


Yep.. just look at our own division, too... since Eli became a full time starter.

2005: NYG
2006: PHI
2007: DAL
2008: NYG
2009: DAL
2010: PHI
2011: NYG
2012: WSH
2013: PHI
2014: DAL
2015: WSH
2016: DAL
2017: PHI

Our division has been a carousel his entire career. Not a single back to back division champion in 13 years, which I think speaks to the parity in the NFL a great deal.

So, its not just the Giants.

Many management decisions are based on, or result from financial  
Marty in Albany : 6/11/2018 9:58 am : link
considerations which neither players, nor fans, nor media are in a position to know about, or make valid comments on.

HOWEVER, just because we don't know the specific reasons for the decisions that have been made, it is still fair for fans to conclude that a series of losing years is the result of bad decision-making by the owners/managers of the team.

Furthermore, I have absolutely no obligation to tell the Giants what it SHOULD have done in order not to stink, but I have every right to point out that they DO stink. It is THEIR fault not MINE that they stink, and they have brass balls for asking the same ticket prices for a 3-13 club as for a 11-5 club.
Maybe OíHara, Snee, Diehl and McKenzie should have retired...  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/11/2018 10:02 am : link
...instead of tying up massive amounts of cap space for 1-2 years after each of them have begun to fall apart.

The story of the 2012-2017 Giants is a lot more complicated than OíHara has ever acknowledged, and his early decline in 2009-2010 was part of it.
RE: RE: I am of the belief that Eli  
Keith : 6/11/2018 10:14 am : link
In comment 13988447 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13988417 Keith said:


Quote:


is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.

If that were actually true (the "scared" part), doesn't that feed into the overall thesis of the piece. Being "scared" would be 100% a function of mismanagement in building on offensive line.


I'd say yes and no. He's scared because the OL hasn't been very good and Eli does not like getting hit(what 35-40 year old does??). Part of that is on him though. Despite not wanting to get hit, its a part of the game. You need to be strong in the pocket and willing to take the punishment. I think there is some truth that management wasted Eli's golden years, but because of Eli, the margin for error is very thin. He needed a perfect situation around him.
RE: RE: I am of the belief that Eli  
Keith : 6/11/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 13988451 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13988417 Keith said:


Quote:


is on a sharp decline, but it wouldn't shock me if he had 2-3 years left. Physically, he hasn't lost much. Mentally, he's still great at reading defenses and knowing where to throw the ball. The issue is that he sort of plays scared at this point in his career, IMO. Can that reverse back to the badass he was when he was younger? Doubtful, but I guess it can.



I think with our weapons and a better coach, I just think everything is going to go smoother. Eli will still make a lot of throws with his usual WTF throws. I think this is a big year for him mentally. The consensus is he is shell shocked or has happy feet. If he continues to have them, he wont have an excuse. If he plays well, then all the better for us.


Well said. For me, the chances and WTF throws he makes isn't the problem. Thats part of what made him successful. He's a bit of a gun slinger. Its the second part for me, thats my concern.
RE: Maybe OíHara, Snee, Diehl and McKenzie should have retired...  
jcn56 : 6/11/2018 10:21 am : link
In comment 13988494 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...instead of tying up massive amounts of cap space for 1-2 years after each of them have begun to fall apart.

The story of the 2012-2017 Giants is a lot more complicated than OíHara has ever acknowledged, and his early decline in 2009-2010 was part of it.


Probably the biggest disaster in all of that was the Giants strategy of trying to ride the '11 title team as far as they could, when it was apparent that the wheels were falling off.
Agreed.  
Brown Recluse : 6/11/2018 10:40 am : link
Poor drafting and FA moves along the lines more than anything else.

This season should be really fun to watch though, barring injury (which unfortunately for us, is more of a common occurence)
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 10:42 am : link
I'm really excited to see Beckham, Barkley, Engram and Shepard all on the field together.

This offense can be really fun. I think Eli is going to be better than a lot of people think.
RE: This thread is like the bat signal  
JCin332 : 6/11/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 13988339 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
For dep and Britt


An asshole says what...??
Here it is in 25 words or less.  
Red Dog : 6/11/2018 11:50 am : link
Ownership failed miserably because they kept Reese and Ross in key positions way beyond when they should have been dismissed.
I'm no fan of Jints Central...  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 12:12 pm : link
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.

It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?

The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.

You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.
Itís a ridiculous assertion  
hassan : 6/11/2018 12:22 pm : link
That the Giants wasted Eli prime. They won two Super Bowls during Eliís true prime.

A team that wasted a qb is Miami with Marino or Bert Jones with the Colts. Hell then Rodgers had been wasted by the Packers this decade by this silly definition.

Any feelings of pity or remorse for Eli is utter nonsense.
Aaron Rodgers  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:25 pm : link
had one of the best OLines in football for many years. Those times where he sat around for 7-8 seconds to throw the ball is something many QBs dream of as well. Not taking anything away from rodgers because he is amazing - but he has had some very, very good OLines and his WR corps have been good as well.

He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.
The Giants had a big advantage over the division  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 12:25 pm : link
They never had to jump into the treacherous waters of the search for the franchise QB. Since 2012 Washington has had a flop franchise QB (Griffin), Dallas dealt with major QB injury issues with Romo starting in 2015, and Philly finished 2012-2017 with five different leading passers (Vick, Foles, Sanchez, Bradford, Wentz).

By contrast we never had any QB issues. No injuries, no controversies, no need to spend premium picks at the position. Yet from 2012-2017:

- 42-54 overall record
- 14-22 divisional record
- 0 divisional titles

I agree with Tuck and O'Hara. The management of the team has been poor for years, and if any one of many things had gone differently in 2011 (the Cruz fumble in Arizona, Romo missing Austin, Eli pulling rabbits out of hats all year) we're talking about an 0-2 playoff record in 10 seasons since the Tyree catch.

Eli's record versus his draft contemporaries:

Eli: 111-103
Roethlisberger: 135-63
Rivers: 106-86

I don't think either of those guys is appreciably better than Eli, if at all. So then why is Roethlisberger +72, Rivers +20, and Eli +8?
RE: I'm no fan of Jints Central...  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13988670 bw in dc said:
Quote:
but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.

It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?

The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.

You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.


This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.
Bw in dc  
hassan : 6/11/2018 12:26 pm : link
This is spot on. In fact, the Giants and Eli were a good match and did decently well by each other. Any narrative that paints otherwise is disingenuous.
But this isn't a question of who is the better QB - Rodgers or Eli  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 12:27 pm : link
That answer is obvious, but also remember Eli is no schmo either.

It is absolutely clear Eli is not going to be a game-changer or savior at this stage of his career. He is going to need better players around him for the Offense to be successful. In fact, he probably needs even better players than he is at this point.

And it still may not be enough, but that is the road this regime is taking...at least in 2018.

"I wish someone had wasted our primes like that!"  
Mike from Ohio : 6/11/2018 12:28 pm : link

- Joint statement issued by Dan Marino and Jim Kelly
RE: RE: I'm no fan of Jints Central...  
crick n NC : 6/11/2018 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13988683 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13988670 bw in dc said:


Quote:


but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.

It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?

The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.

You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.



This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.


Actually he's not. He has literally no idea what or how the qb position is played
Not that PFF is the all to be all  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:30 pm : link
but its one of the few sites that give reasons for their rankings: OLine ratings for packers:

2013 - 10th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 7th
2016 - 5th
2017 - 13th

Aint to shabby....
RE: Bw in dc  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13988684 hassan said:
Quote:
This is spot on. In fact, the Giants and Eli were a good match and did decently well by each other. Any narrative that paints otherwise is disingenuous.


Actually its not spot on. The point both are making is that the last 6 years we wasted an opportunity of having a franchise QB and surrounded him with borderline NFL talented who started. Injuries took a toll on some players. But many players who started between 2013-2017 were either castoffs, end of the road players, or those who couldnt get a job after the year it was over.

That is what it means by wasted. We surrounded Eli, the mainstay of the team, with bad players. Did Eli play a hand in some of the games - sure. But outside OBJ - he was surrounded by many players who would be lucky toget a job - and those players started.
How many times have the Packers made the playoffs but Rodgers  
Ivan15 : 6/11/2018 12:32 pm : link
couldnít get them to the SB?
Itís not worth getting into Eliís skills  
hassan : 6/11/2018 12:32 pm : link
But the idea that Giants brass failed him is total crap. Then Rivers has been failed much more by the Chargers, Rodgers by the packers, Brees by the Saints etc because they have won less hardware.

This isnít even about Eli itís about the fact this argument applies to tons of players. Just a terrible tone of argument.
RE: Itís not worth getting into Eliís skills  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13988693 hassan said:
Quote:
But the idea that Giants brass failed him is total crap. Then Rivers has been failed much more by the Chargers, Rodgers by the packers, Brees by the Saints etc because they have won less hardware.



I think your missing the overall point of all this. The Giants brass has failed the Giants the last 6 years, its just that those 6 years was when Eli was in his prime and was the mainstay of his team.
You want..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2018 12:34 pm : link
bw to be rational??

He's a guy who still looks at Giants ownership as if it is the 70's.

He consistently uses the term "Jints Central" derisively as if 4 SB's came by sheer luck.

He has disliked Eli since draft day. And admittingly still holds draft day against him, even though he was an integral part of two titles.

I think his biggest problem is that Eli won them for the Giants instead of the Redskins.....
Dep  
hassan : 6/11/2018 12:35 pm : link
Then tons of teams have failed their star players. As if there is some obligation to win for these players. The obligation is to put the best team forward.

Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.
RE: Dep  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13988697 hassan said:
Quote:


Many teams have failed over the past six seasons in this regard.


I agree with this 100%. Thats why you see so much turn over in the league. When I look at this premesis of the thread. I think they are stating since 2012-2013, the Giants have failed to put a quailty team out with a franchise QB. The Giants havent failed Eli in his career, that would be ridiculous. The Giants just have failed to put on a good team the last half of his career.

RE: Aaron Rodgers  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13988681 dep026 said:
Quote:
had one of the best OLines in football for many years. Those times where he sat around for 7-8 seconds to throw the ball is something many QBs dream of as well. Not taking anything away from rodgers because he is amazing - but he has had some very, very good OLines and his WR corps have been good as well.

He hasnt been working with nothing like being assumed by the last few posts.


Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?

The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.
RE: How many times have the Packers made the playoffs but Rodgers  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13988692 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
couldnít get them to the SB?


Let me help you here. The Packers get to the playoffs because of Rodgers, not because of Ted Thompson.
what I have always wondered  
giantfan2000 : 6/11/2018 12:46 pm : link
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?

or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?
RE: RE: I'm no fan of Jints Central...  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13988683 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13988670 bw in dc said:


Quote:


but this camp of people who continuously look for excuses to bail Eli out of any responsibility for the team's erratic play is outrageous and insulting.

It is really Jints Central's fault that they didn't get enough 7'4" receivers to catch Eli's wild passes when he goes off the rails? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli makes stupid decisions in the pocket instead of just taking a sack? Is it really Jints Central's fault when Eli goes bi-polar and makes awful reads?

The preferential treatment this guy gets is astonishing.

You know a real franchise QB who has been screwed by his management? Aaron Rodgers. That guy is a Master Chef at making chicken salad out of chicken sh-t. He's productive every year and nearly every game. Incredibly consistent and makes other players better. A bona fide franchise QB.



This is just terrible in every sense of the word. And you claim yourself to be "rational". Come on, you are better than this.


Which accurate part?
Giants fans..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2018 12:48 pm : link
want both. And when it doesn't happen that way, they bitch and moan like we are the Browns.
RE: RE: Aaron Rodgers  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13988707 bw in dc said:
Quote:

Remind me of the great running game/running backs Rodgers has had. Name the elite WR he has had that he didn't make? And remind me of the great defenses Rodgers has had since they won the SB in '10? Does he really have a great oline or does it make it look great - especially with his ability to move? How did that great oline do last year with Brett Hundley?

The guy has a PhD in QBing. He is the Packers. Without him the Packers are...well...last year's version.


What great Rbs has Eli ever had? Forget the last 6 years. The best RB he had was over a decade ago. And guess what Eddie Lacy would be the 2nd best RB Eli ever played with.

Wide Recievers? Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Randall Cobb? Yeah - bums.

As far as the OL playing with a guy like Brett Hundley.... Brett Hundley sucks balls. He sucks so bad that the Packers traded for Kizer in the offseason.
RE: what I have always wondered  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13988710 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?

or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?


It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.
Dep-so I would agree  
hassan : 6/11/2018 12:51 pm : link
Except for a few things. I happen to believe Eliís prime was 2007 playoff run -12. So no prime wasted. Eli is a middle pack qB since then on a bad team (my opinion of course). So I donít get this sentiment.

If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.

RE: Dep-so I would agree  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13988722 hassan said:
Quote:


If anything the Giants are wasting a generational talent in Odell which I see expressed much less than the premise of the article.


This would probably be more accurate since OBJ has been the best player on the team since 2014. However since they asked two of Eli's old teammates - the question was centered around him. I think a lot of his old teammates are still VERY loyal to him - as we saw during his benching last year.
Lik Eli didn't have something to do with it?  
GiantNatty : 6/11/2018 12:54 pm : link
please.

Eli marshalled two teams to championships by playing out of his mind in the playoffs. And given that they won those championships, you could easily say that both of those teams underachieved in the regular season (with Eli at the helm throughout).

In four other years in which he had teams good enough to make the playoffs, he was 0-4.

I get the love for Eli and I love him too, but the amount of people who can't look at him objectively and see that other than those two runs, he's been as average as he is durable is a prime example of seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.
The 2008 Giants should have had a deep playoff run  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 12:59 pm : link
That's still the best team Eli played on, and they fell apart at the end. He didn't particularly play well and also Burress put a hole in his leg.
RE: what I have always wondered  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13988710 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?

or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?


That is a good question. You can essentially bank on the Packers having a chance to win the SB largely because of Rodgers. It's like a warm blanket. And you can't win it unless you are in it.

The Giants? Nearly no one saw these two SBs coming, and it took some real serendipity to pull them out. But that's their identity - Eli has been inconsistent from game to game, year to year; and Jints Central is a stodgy, old organization that still uses rotary phones.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2018 1:05 pm : link
there it is again. The prerequisite "Jints Central" used derisively.

And incorrectly, but whatever.

Guy just can't help himself.
RE: RE: what I have always wondered  
JonC : 6/11/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13988718 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13988710 giantfan2000 said:


Quote:


would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?

or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?



It doesn't have to be one or the other. While the two Super Bowls are precious and you'd never give them back, it's important to note that neither of those was a great team. Rather, they were flawed teams that got hot at the right time. If you were looking for a model on how to build a successful team, you wouldn't look at either of those as prime examples.


Further, the best team of the era was the 2008 team that ran out of gas versus the ******.
Great posters have left  
dep026 : 6/11/2018 1:10 pm : link
and bw is still here. I wonder if he has been trolling as long as the term "Jints Central" has been used.
I guess it depends  
mittenedman : 6/11/2018 1:24 pm : link
on whst you think his prime is. OíHara & Tuck are talking about the years following 2011. (Undoubtedly Eliís career year.)

No one is saying the Giants shouldve won more Super Bowls than 2, but to have Eli Manning in his prime and miss the playoffs 6 out of 7 years?

And to those calling BS on OíHara & Tuck: what about the McAdoo hire? How was that in any way good for Eli?
RE: what I have always wondered  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13988710 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
would Giant fans prefer playoffs every year like Green Bay
and only one ring ?

or the two magical years with super bowl victories and in other years not making playoffs ?


Please don't state that was the "plan" in the years we won it and the ones we didnt'...

Magical is the right term...
Eli is easy to love  
UberAlias : 6/11/2018 1:45 pm : link
He gives you everything he has and says and does all the right things by the team.

Assessing him though can be confoundingly difficult. He's maddeningly inconsistent. From game to game, or quarter to quarter. You have two of the greatest SB runs in the history of the game. On the other side you have things like zero playoff wins outside of those two years and leading the league in INTs 3x. Even in those SB years, you have disasters of games during the season, but perfection during the runs. You have an excessive number of extremely ugly prime time performances. But you also have times like in 2015 where he carried the team. Or countless dramatic 4th quarter comeback wins. He's shown brilliance and poise, but also moments of skittish and ineptitude. But he's also been an ironman of health in contrast to a team around him that for years stood among the most injured in the league. He lacks mobility but avoids sacks through quick decisions and the ball coming out quickly. He's a leader by example not a vocal one who pumps up the troops for a big game.


We can go on and on. What I will say is this. Before Eli, there were many years where I knew the team did not have a shot. We were bad and there was little hope of being any more than mediocre. Since Eli's rookie year, I can't say that has ever truly been the case. Yes, there have been years where I didn't think they would be good, but there was always hope. Many of their best seasons, in fact, came without expectations --similarly, many of their worse seasons came when expectations were high. When a guy has won two SBs like he has, in as unlikely a manner, there is always hope for your team. Even now, at the end of his career, coming off a 3 win season, you would have to be a fool to count them/him out. Despite the ups and downs, as a player, that's what I think I'll remember about him most.
2008 was indeed the best team  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 1:51 pm : link
However the Giants made a crucial error signing Plaxico Burress to an extension instead of trying to trade him. They'd looked the other way on 3 years of his bullshit (remember Steve Smith's quotes on him), and eventually it blew up in their faces.
and they rested on their laurels  
JonC : 6/11/2018 1:54 pm : link
and drafted like shit, didn't get out in front to improve the roster. A consistent theme with Reese and his staff.
Fulfilling but frustrating run  
WillVAB : 6/11/2018 3:16 pm : link
The two runs were arguably the best of any SB, but the Giants blew it from a dynasty perspective. The Ď08 and Ď10 teams were good enough to win it all. Then thereís other factors like Coughlinís usual second half collapse, injuries in 05/06, the Sheridan debacle in 09, and then Reeseís shitty drafts around 11.

Most SBs end from a magical run.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2018 3:16 pm : link
Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to Ď07 and Ď11 Iíll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv
Let's be honest  
UberAlias : 6/11/2018 3:17 pm : link
Odell covered up a lot of the stink and kept people in jobs a lot longer than they deserved.
RE: Most SBs end from a magical run.  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13988850 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to Ď07 and Ď11 Iíll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv


It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.
Eli basically stood on his head in 2011. Cruz and Nicks and JPP  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 3:25 pm : link
with the big assists. That team shouldn't have gone as far as it did with that OL and that lack of a run game.
RE: RE: Most SBs end from a magical run.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2018 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13988854 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13988850 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Why this always seems to be adjective used as it pertains to Ď07 and Ď11 Iíll never understand. aside from the occasional wall to wall dominant team, this parity, that has effectively existed since Plan B ended, lends itself to many Wild card entrants winning it all or making a lot of noise. So, most endings in this watered down league oft times results in magical runs, imv



It's used for those two Giants teams because it's the truth. 10-6 & 9-7. The 2011 team was actually outscored during the regular season.


As it should be for many other magical runs since Plan B. Of course it was magical, but referring to our magical runs as implicitly meaning it JUST HAPPENED TO US AND US ALONE is kinda disingenous, imo..
Also, our final records for the aforementioned SB years  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2018 3:30 pm : link
was 14-6 and 13-7. We were the best team in football at seasonís end..
The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 3:35 pm : link
Only 9-7 team to ever win the title. Only team to have been outscored during the regular season to ever win the title. I'm going to guess they're the only champ to have conceded 400+ points during the season, too.

No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.
From Tom Rock's Twitter just now:  
Britt in VA : 6/11/2018 3:42 pm : link
Quote:
Eli on Shaun OíHaraís comments from the weekend that the Giants wasted Eliís prime: ďI donít look at it that way. I appreciate everything the Giants have done and Iím excited about being there this year and taking advantage of this year.Ē


Quote:
On the support he got from OíHara and Justin Tuck: ďTheyíre teammates and I won championships with both of them so I think those guys are always loyal, but thatís not the way I look at it. I still think I have some peak years left, so we can make it right.Ē
RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2018 3:43 pm : link
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only 9-7 team to ever win the title. Only team to have been outscored during the regular season to ever win the title. I'm going to guess they're the only champ to have conceded 400+ points during the season, too.

No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.


Technically yes, but for a controversial TD call in SB XLIII, the 9-7 Cards would have been world champs..
RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:
Quote:

No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.


That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...
Few Old Vets telling the Truth  
GMen23 : 6/11/2018 4:04 pm : link
I not only agree with these Giant legends, but Iíll go on record saying, Eli will prove them right this season. There have been knowledgeable fans yelling for offensive line help here for years. Every team has holes. Does Eli need a better line then Russell Wilson? Thatís not even a question.

I saw the shell shocked, ducking Eli that you saw last year. That will end. Eliís typical Sunday, 2nd half, Down 14, sacked 6 times, wacked on the last two plays, And a free 300lb linemen bearing down on you. And did I forget to say your coach benched you for Geno Smith? Who wouldnít duck?

Three new offensive Linemen and Barkley. Ducking, skittish Eli is a thing of the past. Get ready for the resurrection.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 6/11/2018 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13988879 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.



That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...


I HATE that talking point. What does it say about the other teams that competed for the championship that season? Would they too have been the "worst teams to ever win a championship" considering how much trouble they had with the Giants during the regular season in 2011? The Giants beat the best team in the AFC (Patriots) on their homefield that year. The Giants lost to the Packers (#1 seed in NFC) on a FG as time expired during the regular season. They lost to the 49ers (#2 seed in NFC) by 7 points in San Francisco, yet had the ball inside the 10 yard-line with a chance to tie in the final minute of the game.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13988879 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.



That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.


I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 6:23 pm : link
The 2011 team had a lot of guys banged up during the year. Things really didn't come together until everyone got on the field for the Championship run.

The team that navigated through those playoffs was quite good. So this whole "worst team to ever win a title" nonsense is nothing other than gross hyperbole. Give me a break.

The Giants beat a 15-1 Packers team on the road, a 49ers team with an absolutely punishing defense in absolute slop, and capped it off by beating Belichick and Brady in the Super Bowl.. for a second time.

The 2011 team was wildly inconsistent during the course of that season, but once they were firing on all cylinders, they played really, really well. They earned that trophy.

But admitting that means you have to give credit to Eli, and we all know how much "bee dubs" simply refuses to do so...
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 6:24 pm : link
And I didn't even mention that the defense shut out a Falcons offense that was top 10 in the league that year.
No one is saying they didn't earn the trophy  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 6:32 pm : link
Every team that's won it, earned it. It's just that of all the teams that have won it, the 2011 Giants are the worst. I wouldn't point to that team and say, "That right there is an example of how a team should be built." It's a more than fair statement to make in the context of a conversation about how management has performed during Eli Manning's career.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 6:40 pm : link
And no one is pointing to that team and saying "that's how a team should be built," either.

What's the difference?

They're a championship team. You can spin it any way you want, no one wins a free Lombardi in this league.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2018 6:41 pm : link
There was clearly enough talent on that team to beat good football teams. They proved it in the playoffs. It's just as fair to point that out.
A consistent theme in both the 2007 and 2011 years were  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 7:00 pm : link
they really had put it all together, from a team perspective, come playoff time.

The Offense, Defense and Specials had their ups and downs during those regular seasons, but all 3 units really were firing on all cylinders during the playoffs. All contributing at key points in those games...which is why they didn't lose any I guess.

And, of course, Eli was special in both playoff runs as been mentioned countless times...

RE: RE: This thread is like the bat signal  
figgy2989 : 6/11/2018 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13988543 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13988339 figgy2989 said:


Quote:


For dep and Britt



An asshole says what...??


A douche was saying??
Eli's best season was in 2011.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/11/2018 7:16 pm : link
He was great that season. And once the D stepped up their game, we were going to be a tough out. People forget, but that team started out 6-2 & beat the Pats in Foxboro in early November. That was a worthy champion.
RE: Let's be honest  
mattyblue : 6/11/2018 9:19 pm : link
In comment 13988851 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Odell covered up a lot of the stink and kept people in jobs a lot longer than they deserved.


This is so very true.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
bw in dc : 6/11/2018 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13988966 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:



That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.



I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.


The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.

So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the Ď11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.

I came down to the Ď82 Skins, Ď00 Ravens, Ď02 Bucs, Ď12 Ravens, and the Ď15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.

Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.

Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )

The Ď02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that itís hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.

The Ď12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didnít see it.

I threw in the Ď15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.

In my judgment, those are the teams the Ď11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the Ď12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...

So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...
I think some of you can't really describe the difference between  
widmerseyebrow : 6/11/2018 10:45 pm : link
"shell shocked" "happy feet" and justifiably speeding up the internal play clock because your line is the worst its been your entire career and has little consistency from drive to drive. The former is some incurable disease that Eli somehow contracted and the latter is simply playing in a shit situation. I tend to think its simply the latter.
When I think of wasted primes/careers I think Marino and B. Sanders  
TD : 6/11/2018 11:08 pm : link
Even Aaron Rodgers, who is twice the QB Eli is with half the number of rings.

I love Eli. Heís an all-time Giant great and possible HOFer but heís got 2 rings. And he was a top 5 QB for only a few years in his career, at most. Arguably, just once.

Letís be happier about things.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
JCin332 : 6/11/2018 11:09 pm : link
In comment 13988879 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.



That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...


Holy shit if there was any doubt you are a very dim bulb it has been cemented on this thread...
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 11:58 pm : link
In comment 13989074 bw in dc said:
Quote:


So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...


I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.

You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
dep026 : 6/12/2018 6:41 am : link
In comment 13989074 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13988966 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:





That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports.



I don't agree with that. Sure, they weren't a juggernaut, but they had players on offense that any team would've coveted. Nicks and Cruz were exceptional players. The Giants haven't fielded a pair of players on offense like that since their short-lived run. And on the other side, JPP had a year that put him in DPOY conversation. Yeah, the offensive line was patchwork and they couldn't run the ball well, but that team was a good mix of outstanding young players and enough veterans to get by.



The NBA, MLB, NHL determine their winners via best of series; so that format rarely, if ever, produces a winner out of nowhere.

So that leaves the NFL. I suggest you go through the list of 52 SB winners and find a team that the Ď11 Giants would be a favorite or match up better talent wise.

I came down to the Ď82 Skins, Ď00 Ravens, Ď02 Bucs, Ď12 Ravens, and the Ď15 Broncos. All of those teams had shakier QB play than Eli.

Theisman was a classic game manager and that team sort of got fortunate by short season because the strike. Hard to gauge this team from a historical perspective. Take them off.

Dilfer was a mistake constantly waiting to happen, but he was the beneficiary of a historic defense. They would have destroyed us 6-3. ; )

The Ď02 Bucs may be a reach by me because they did have some balance and that defense was historic, too. Plus, they had a 12-4 regular season. However, like both Eli led SB winners, their offense finally clicked in the post season. And they got fortunate by playing the Raiders in the SB. But that itís hard to think Eli could make much of a dent on that defense.

The Ď12 Ravens were led by a QB similar to Eli, but, in my judgement, worse. But like Eli, Flacco got scorching hot in the playoffs and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to beat the Broncos in the divisional round. They had a terrific defense, but were only 10-6 in the regular season and got in as a wildcard. And one of those wins was one of the luckiest in history when they converted a 4th and 30 on a bullish-t screen to Ray Rice where the Chargers played dead. You need to watch that if you didnít see it.

I threw in the Ď15 Broncos because Peyton was so poor that year. He hit the wall. But again, like many of the others, they had a historic defense that just strangled the opposition.

In my judgment, those are the teams the Ď11 Giants are up against as the most unimpressive SB winner ever. The biggest advantage our team has, on paper, seems to be Eli. However, those teams had stellar defenses and that likely gives them the edge...except, maybe, the Ď12 Ravens because they are very similar to that Giant team with a season that had everything fall into place at the right time...

So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...


Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I donít know where to start!
Well  
dep026 : 6/12/2018 7:54 am : link
Many teams have beaten

10-6
15-1 on the road
13-3 on the road
13-3 Brady and Belichick

In route to winning a SB. Every other SB team in history would have done so.
RE: I think some of you can't really describe the difference between  
Big Blue '56 : 6/12/2018 8:01 am : link
In comment 13989078 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
"shell shocked" "happy feet" and justifiably speeding up the internal play clock because your line is the worst its been your entire career and has little consistency from drive to drive. The former is some incurable disease that Eli somehow contracted and the latter is simply playing in a shit situation. I tend to think its simply the latter.


I have zero doubts, with his present arsenal, that Eli, still healthy with a strong arm, can be clutch Eli again, EXCEPT for the POSSIBILITY of PTSD, through little fault of his own. I hope your ďlatterĒ is the correct one. If it is, just watch..
bw, you sure you're a Giants fan?  
exiled : 6/12/2018 8:10 am : link
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.
exiled..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2018 8:20 am : link
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.

It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.

By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.

RE: They are 100% correct  
NNJ Tom : 6/12/2018 8:34 am : link
In comment 13988322 blueblood said:
Quote:
They waited too long to build an serviceable offensive line and a running game to support Eli..


This. The lack of attention to the line was negligence.

So what if the poster uses the phrase Jints Central  
Jimmy Googs : 6/12/2018 8:42 am : link
you actually are taking him way too serious at this point....move on
LMAO  
RinR : 6/12/2018 8:57 am : link
Quote:
So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...


you are insufferable
RE: exiled..  
UberAlias : 6/12/2018 9:02 am : link
In comment 13989124 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

By the way, when it comes down to comparing SB winners, which is a useless exercise, most of the early SB teams were far less powerful. Some of the Dolphin and Raiders teams that won were less than impressive, as were the Colts. We romanticize a lot of them for the early success in the league, but even the miracle Jets team wasn't all that great.
Agreed. I would throw in the recent winners as well. There are no real powerhouses. A Foles led Philly team, a flawed NE team that should have lost to an unremarkable Atlanta team, a lopsided Broncos team. You can quibble here or there, but are any of these teams really on a different level than the '11 team? They may have had better regular seasons, but once that team got healthy and came together I certainly don't agree. Their path to and through the SB I would suggest they beat more than one team arguably better than any of the three I've listed.
Youíre wasting your time with my offline buddy, bw.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/12/2018 9:21 am : link
Hereís all you need to know and then you can drop your respective mics: After winning 2 SBs in 4 years, he STILL ragged on TC..

Ok, moviní on..😎
Wasted Eli's prime? HAHAHAHAHA  
NYSports1 : 6/12/2018 9:42 am : link
What is Ohara and Tuck smoking? If any team wasted their qb's prime years is the Packers. Bad defense for a long time, injuries to the oline...Dude play full season missing both starting tackles and still made playoffs and played great. No run game.

ARodgers played great when the Packers put an average product around him. That is wasting a qb's prime years

Eli has played bad and requires All Pro talent to function while making over 20 million a season
I knew something was missing from this thread.  
dep026 : 6/12/2018 9:47 am : link
....
When it comes to "wasting"...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2018 9:49 am : link
a player's prime years, you can point to tons of examples in the salary cap era.

You could say Indy wasted Peyton's prime by fielding a non-competitive D

You could say the same about Brees. Two years the Saints had the worst D in the league

You could say the Lions wasted Barry Sanders prime

You could say that the Vikings wasted AP's prime by never having a successful QB/WR combo to go with him

The list goes on and on.

What I know is Eli has 2 rings. The folly are fans who expected the team to have more. Romo has none on a team fans here usually marvel at the construct of. The Redskins have a long drought. We talk about Eli's prime being wasted as his contempories like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers and Ryan have less titles to show.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/12/2018 9:51 am : link
I've had plenty of good football conversations with bw since he's returned - but his perspective on the Giants really does baffle me. He talks about them like they're the most incompetent franchise in pro sports and the amount of dislike for Eli (not just now, when he's declining, but the entire body of work) is staggering.

What Eli is right now, in 2018, is absolutely up for debate.

What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.

I have no problem with people who think Eli is done, wanted to draft a QB, move on, etc - I didn't necessarily feel exactly the same way, but I get that.

How anyone could harbor dislike for Eli in general as a Giants fan at this point is just really difficult to understand. Doesn't sound like much of a Giants fan, really.
.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/12/2018 9:55 am : link
Quote:


What isn't up for debate is that we've been truly blessed to have this player for as long as we've had him and that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of this franchise.



Correction: ď...that he brought us two of the greatest moments in the entire history of sports.Ē

You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level  
NYSports1 : 6/12/2018 9:59 am : link
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level  
dep026 : 6/12/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 13989202 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.


So you believe he has had enough talent surrounding him the last 6 years to make a playoff/SB run?
RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level  
arcarsenal : 6/12/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 13989202 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.


Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.

No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.

The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.
RE: RE: You do not have to dislike Eli to not be happy with his level  
dep026 : 6/12/2018 10:10 am : link
In comment 13989213 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13989202 NYSports1 said:


Quote:


of play. Why does it have to be love or hate for a player. Eli will always be an iconic Giant for helping win 2 rings. But am not going to make excuses for him.



Not even sure who you're arguing with or what you're arguing.

No one is asking anyone to make excuses for him. The point is that he's been an all-time Giant and one of the most important players in the history of the franchise.

The poster I was referring to literally hates the guy. It baffles me.


Well so does NYSports1..... so it could have applied to him.
I'll just never get it....  
Britt in VA : 6/12/2018 10:13 am : link
So I've stopped trying to.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13989091 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:

I'm perfectly in agreement with you that they weren't some great team. You're right that given the format of the NFL, you're going to get less than ideal champions. I just don't agree whatsoever that they're one of the worst championship teams of all time. They beat the patriots when coming into that game the whole story was that it was about revenge for 2007 and how could Brady possibly lose again.

You can't be one of the worst champions of all time when you have some star players who played like stars and you beat competition of that class, as well as the teams they beat on the playoff road to the championship.


Well, this '11 team with these "star" players went 9-7 again the following year. Only they weren't so fortunate to back into the playoffs again. So they couldn't catch lightening in a bottle again.

However, I agree - to the victor goes the spoils. They took down some big teams. That is certainly worth applauding.

But stripped down, this was a team that just got hot at the right time. And really haven't/weren't able to duplicate anything remotely similar since. Think that speaks volumes...

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13989109 dep026 said:
Quote:

Lol, nominee for worst post of all time in BBI History. What a beauty this is. There are so many things to look at but I donít know where to start!


Well, you didn't see my endless debate about Larry Centers being better than Tiki Barber back in '98 and '99. ;)
RE: bw, you sure you're a Giants fan?  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13989121 exiled said:
Quote:
Your perspective on 2011, a stunning post season along with a premiere regular-season performance by Eli (on paper? really? did you watch those games?), sounds like sour grapes from a fan of another team.


A stunning post? Really? The team was 9-7.

"Premier regular season by Eli"? He had a decent rating of 93 but threw 16 INTs to 29TDs, less than 2:1 ratio. That's some definition of "premier"...
RE: LMAO  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13989147 RinR said:
Quote:


Quote:


So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...



you are insufferable


It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?
RE: exiled..  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13989124 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
bw is a poster who continually uses the term "Jints Central" to mock the way the team is run. He's probably a Redskins fan as you cannot make this up, but he used to praise Dan Snyder's way of running the team. I believe he thinks "Jints Central" was too stodgy to win anything, and he's even doubled down on that term in this thread.

It is hard to take somebody serious who spends so much time tearing down ownership.




I would say it differently - I expose ownership.

I actually love Jints Central. They are sweet, old men trying their damnest to do things the "Giants Way". Whatever the hell that is...
I'd rather win than be good....  
WideRight : 6/12/2018 1:31 pm : link
Does that make me a mainstream Giants fan, or not?
The biggest shame, to me,  
Go Terps : 6/12/2018 1:45 pm : link
is that we know Eli can go big game hunting as well as anyone. If we'd been more consistent just making the playoffs he could have gotten us some more big wins. Even in the 2016 playoffs he came out great in Green Bay before the wide receivers completely shit the bed.

But to make the playoffs only 5 times in 14 years in this mess of a division...
Coughlin has to eat some of that too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/12/2018 1:51 pm : link
We never figured out why his teams so commonly slumped in the second halves of seasons.
Coughlin absolutely eats a lot of it  
Go Terps : 6/12/2018 2:08 pm : link
.
RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
djm : 6/12/2018 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13988879 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13988863 Go Terps said:


Quote:



No one is saying the title doesn't count. But if we're talking about how to build a team and the quality of the management, 2007 and especially 2011 are not examples to follow. The 2011 team is by every metric the worst ever Super Bowl champ by some distance.

The Giants have won 12+ games 3 times in 28 years.



That 2011 team may be the worst team to ever win a championship in all of our professional team sports. Maybe the 2006 St Louis Cardinals are in that debate...


By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.

Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.
None were as flawed as the 2011 Giants  
Go Terps : 6/12/2018 4:24 pm : link
The proof is in the record, in the point differential, and in the points allowed. The Giants are huge outliers in all three categories amongst the Super Bowl champions.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team is an exception in many ways  
bw in dc : 6/12/2018 5:10 pm : link
In comment 13989631 djm said:
Quote:

By the time that 2011 team got to January they were playing at an elite level. They were ok early on, terrific in October, dreadful in November and trending upward in December before peaking by week 17 onward.

Timing is everything. There are close to a dozen teams that won Nfl titles over the last 15-20 years that were flawed, 2011 giants included.


Your chronology is basically right. The 2011 team was a team all of the performance map. Then they just caught some tail winds that took them to a result absolutely NO ONE saw coming.

And that's really the point - they weren't a very reliable team for nearly the entire season. They snuck into the playoffs with the two wins at the end to finish 9-7. Then the unexpected happened.

Sure, you take it - all day. But it's also worthwhile to step back and put what happened in context. In my judgment, versus many other teams that have won the whole thing, that 2011 team was not exemplary by any measurement.

And like I said above, the following years just bear that out. An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...
RE: RE: LMAO  
RinR : 6/13/2018 8:32 am : link
In comment 13989418 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13989147 RinR said:


Quote:




Quote:


So the point remains. That Ď11 team was not a stellar team at all. And itís hard to call them anything but a fortunate team that just got hot at the right time...



you are insufferable



It's always easier to drive in the right lane with the mainstream Giants fans and parrot what they say instead, right?


If by mainstream you mean those of us who enjoyed those championship teams and not piss on their accomplishments, then yes I am a mainstream fan.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 8:39 am : link
Quote:
An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...


For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.

You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.

In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.

"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.
RE: LOL..  
arcarsenal : 6/13/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13990023 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


An up and down organization, mostly down, who have't been able to match that. Why? Because it was such an outlier...



For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.

You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.

In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.

"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.


It's fucking baffling, man. I don't get it.
Most overlooked aspect of 2011  
widmerseyebrow : 6/13/2018 10:45 am : link
It was one of the greatest quarterback seasons of all time.

Statistically last in rushing, an inconsistent defense, and just decent pass protection, yet our man gets the record for most comeback wins in a season. For winning outdoors and under pressure, there was no one better. Brees and Brady, despite their gaudy statistics that year, didn't take home the lombardi.
RE: LOL..  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 13990023 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.

You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.

In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.

"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.


So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?

And you question my understanding of the game.

Well done.

It's certainly helpful when posters go the extra mile  
Mad Mike : 6/13/2018 12:00 pm : link
to remove any doubt.
My comment..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:05 pm : link
was to the "mostly down organization" crap.

Which has basically been the thrust of most of your posts. That "Jints Central" is a conglomeration of idiots and fools, born with silver spoons up their asses who are "nice" men who suck at running a football team.

Yet, these idiots have lucked into catching lightning in a bottle 4 times, and at least once in each of the past 4 decades.

But you probably realized that was what I'm getting at and you just don't have a pithy retort that can be used against it.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:08 pm : link
and if there's any more ammunition to refute your bizarre dislike of Eli, you just laid it out right here:

Quote:
So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?

And you question my understanding of the game.


You know what isn't part of those stats? QB play. That season alone should cement Eli as the reason the Giants won the SB and should pretty much endear any fan of the Giants to him.

Emphasis on "fan of the Giants"......
RE: RE: LOL..  
arcarsenal : 6/13/2018 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13990243 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13990023 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:




For such a supposed fan of the game, to look at the NFL and look at that as an "outlier" is simply insane.

You know why they haven't been able to match it? Because the NFL is basically a league of parity now where injuries play as much of a determinant to success than coaching and talent. The actual outlier in the NFL in New England.

In a league with half the playoff teams missing the postseason the next yer. In a league where two divisions haven't had back to back champions in the past decade and in a league where the Giants have as many SB wins since 2000 than any but one other team, you really have a terrible concept of what is an outlier and what the league is like.

"A mostly down organization", who has won a SB title in each of the past 4 decades. Yeah. right.



So a team that goes 9-7, finishes last in rushing, gives up 400 total points, finishes 25th in total defense, 29th in pass defense, 19th in rushing defense, 26th in scoring defense, were in the bottom third in red zone defense...I could do on if you want, those are general stats...is not an outlier for winning a SB?

And you question my understanding of the game.

Well done.


I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.

And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.

But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.

Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.
arc..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:17 pm : link
let's not forget that bw has actually praised Dan Snyder's ownership before. And on threads referring to "Jints Central" and stodgy old men.

RE: arc..  
arcarsenal : 6/13/2018 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13990277 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
let's not forget that bw has actually praised Dan Snyder's ownership before. And on threads referring to "Jints Central" and stodgy old men.


LOL, I must have missed that - but if that's true, that's pretty damning. If you're criticizing "Jints Central" on a daily basis but somehow found ways to praise Daniel Snyder, I think the motivations are much clearer.
To be fair...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:23 pm : link
it was prior to 2007, but still. Any aspect of Snyder's management has been poor.

But there was a small group of posters who insisted that the Giants needed to be like Snyder and Jones instead of conservative old men.....
the 2011 team was a massive fluke  
Greg from LI : 6/13/2018 12:23 pm : link
I don't know how there is any argument over that. Missed the playoffs in 2009-10, barely scraped by in 2011, missed them 2012-15. Out of nowhere, their shitty defense started playing well in the playoffs and their moribund running game came alive, and they got red hot. It was a lot of fun. It also came out of the clear blue sky.

The Giants are a strange franchise. They don't get into the playoffs all that much but tend to go on runs when they do.
From 2012-2015...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:26 pm : link
the Giants were also dead last or in the bottom 5 in terms of health. when they finally had a healthy season (2016), where they were in the top 10, they made the playoffs.

Injuries will impact any team, but one that was weakened due to poor drafts that leaves little depth, it has a massive impact.
RE: RE: RE: LOL..  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13990268 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


I question more what your actual motivations are here. I think you clearly enjoy football and watch quite a bit of it, but I'm not sure who you actually root for.

And no, I don't think to be a Giants fan you have to be rah-rah all the time whatsoever. This team has been run quite poorly for the last 5-6 years now - 2016 being a bit of a surprise outlier. The drafting under Reese and Ross was pretty abysmal in a lot of ways. All fair critiques.

But it doesn't seem like you want to give the franchise credit anywhere, nor does it seem like you're actually rooting for them to succeed.

Maybe the guys who bust your balls about rooting for the Redskins aren't kidding.


Motivations? It's a football site where we debate topics, mostly, about the Giants. So I jump into conversations and like to kick it around. It really shouldn't be any BFD.

The topic was the 2011 team and how unusual their SB victory was despite so many facts suggesting they weren't a quality team. The underlying point, as I mentioned many posts earlier, was how this shows the randomness of the NFL, and how only in the NFL you could possibly get a team like the 2011 Giants team to actually win a SB. I actually find it bewildering why that makes people so uncomfortable.

Believe me, I've been getting the SKins fan thing for a long time. So the occasional references have no impact. If you want to know the gist of that, I once said I admired the way the Skins aggressively used free agency to make their team better. They obviously didn't get it right most of the time, but that was a pathway I thought was a crucial way to build a team. I think I was arguing that I'd rather spend money for a proven asset than an unproven asset - college draft choices. And this was when rookies could negotiate more freely for money versus in today's model where they are essentially locked into the draft slot.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/13/2018 12:48 pm : link
Forget the 2011 debate - it's really not about that.

The only thing that's really bewildering is how a Giants fan can look at Eli Manning the way you do and repeatedly talk about the team like they've been one of the worst franchises in pro sports for decades.

If you praised the Redskins for that approach back then, why didn't you praise the Giants for doing it in 2016? (Fair to assume you didn't - I don't think you were even posting here that year)

What Eli is now or seasons as awful as the one we just saw are worthy of debate/criticism. I just can't really recall a single time where you had anything positive to say about "Jints Central" - which is a little weird for someone who supposedly roots for the team. But I guess that's how some fans are. The glass is always half-empty even when the team wins.
Interestingly enough..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:58 pm : link
the net impact of the Redskins free agent signings didn't strengthen the team, but made them weaker.

But aggression is better than stodgy old men apparently.

The Redskins best players over the past 15 years have overwhelmingly been homegrown, whether it was RG III's one good season, Cousins, Cooley, Kerrigan, Morris, etc.
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