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The Giants pass rush - how good do you expect it to be?

Ira : 6/11/2018 8:11 am
With questions regarding corner back depth, the Giants pass rush might be crucial to our success in pass defense. Even assuming that Vernon returns to form, he's pretty much it as far as our starting dl/lb go in rushing the qb. Lorenzo Carter will be a help there if they bring him in on passing downs. Carter may, at some point, work his way into the starting lineup.

I expect the Giants to blitz a lot in passing situations. Ogletree can help as a blitzer and of course Collins. But I'm still concerned about our ability to get to the quarterback or at least pressure him.
Perhaps the biggest question at this point in time  
JonC : 6/11/2018 8:15 am : link
In my view, not enough prime edge talent on hand as yet, but think they could be good enough for a solid season.

Pivotal year for OV, with the team owning the out on his deal next March.
Lorenzo Carter  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 8:28 am : link
Living in UGA country, and watching most of his college career I support the view the guy should be a solid pro.

But I think some of you better temper your expectations a bit as Carter wasn't some terror coming off the Edge in the SEC. He was one of the better players on a good defense. In many instances a good TE was able to control him.

Looking forward to seeing him in the pros but you're only going to be disappointed by expecting Carter to provide a major impact in the pass rush...as a rookie no less.
Expecting it to be more scheme-based  
David B. : 6/11/2018 8:52 am : link
Rather than talent-based. I think Landon Collins said in Betcher's scheme, they always rush 5 guys. But the point is the offense won't know which 5 guys are coming on any given play.

So I'm guessing, the pass rush may be pretty effective, but I doubt any one guy is gonna get double digit sacks. Even Vernon, though it's certainly possible. I think you'll see several guys (including DBs) with 2-3 sacks, rather than one or two guys with a lot.
New D, a lot of new players  
Beer Man : 6/11/2018 9:01 am : link
Makes it hard to predict. Plus, other than OV, we don't have another player with a long track record of pressuring the QB. Hopefully the new system will be ideal for some of these new guys; there are a few that are certainly athletic enough.
If the Giants are going to have a good consistent pass rush  
Jay on the Island : 6/11/2018 9:13 am : link
They will need two things to happen:

1 - They will need Vernon to have his best season as a Giant and stay healthy.

2- Bettcher is going to have to manufacture pressure through creative blitz packages.
I expect it to be a need that hamstrings them all season  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 9:15 am : link
and a need that makes next offseason's hot issue very clear.
David B  
joeinpa : 6/11/2018 9:34 am : link
Scheme based rather than talent base = no pass rush
Some of you  
WillVAB : 6/11/2018 9:36 am : link
Seem to be brainwashed by the way the Giants used to build their defense.

The Giants don’t have Strahan/Osi/Tuck but they have a lot of potential on paper at the LB position to get after the QB.

We’re just going to have to wait and see how the unit develops.
Really one of my main worries going into next year  
gmen9892 : 6/11/2018 9:53 am : link
If OV gets hurt or banged up, this team's pass rush could be in some series trouble. The issue is, I just dont know what to expect out of Martin, Carter, Moss, and Okwara. If 1 or 2 of them emerge, the pass rush could be good enough. If none emerge as a decent threat opposite of OV, its going to be tough to consistently get to the QB when you need to (i.e. the 4th Quarter to close out games).

There is a lot of youth at the OLB position, so im just hoping someone can step up.
TTH  
JonC : 6/11/2018 9:54 am : link
Yep, that's what I see on paper.
It's gonna questionable at best.  
barens : 6/11/2018 9:55 am : link
Even if some of our young DE's/OLB's end being good players, they are very young.

I also don't know what to think the run defense will be like without JPP. He wasn't the most consistent pass rusher, but he did turn into a very good run defender, and set the edge really well.

That said, I'm feeling much more optimistic about our offensive line, something I think most of us can agree we haven't felt in a very long time.
Average at best  
QB Snacks : 6/11/2018 10:00 am : link
You can only scheme so much. Eventually the scheme is on tape and guys have to win one on one battles. Odds are we dont have enough guys to do that.
Not very consistent  
The_Boss : 6/11/2018 10:02 am : link
And will likely be a big reason why this team misses the playoffs. I cringe thinking about all the time Prescott and Wentz should have behind their OL’s vs our pass rush. I can almost hear Papa lamenting now on WFAN “Carl, there’s absolutely no pass rush” as they’re carving up the DB’s, who can cover only for so long.
Let's hope we get something out of Okwara and Moss.....  
Simms11 : 6/11/2018 10:32 am : link
There's a lot of untapped potential there too. I do think OV will have a decent year and Martin can also help from his side of the field. From the Dline, BJ Hill and Tomlinson can also get after the QB. I think there'll be enough of a pass rush to affect the QB. Bettcher also likes to blitz and so I could see some sacks coming from Collins and the FS, as well. Not ready to fire off flares just yet. I want to see how the pre-season plays out too.
Giants were 29th last season  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 6/11/2018 10:32 am : link
So how about somewhere between "better" and a "lot better"? Best is probably middle of the pack, however.
RE: Lorenzo Carter  
mrvax : 6/11/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13988356 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Living in UGA country, and watching most of his college career I support the view the guy should be a solid pro.

But I think some of you better temper your expectations a bit as Carter wasn't some terror coming off the Edge in the SEC. He was one of the better players on a good defense. In many instances a good TE was able to control him.

Looking forward to seeing him in the pros but you're only going to be disappointed by expecting Carter to provide a major impact in the pass rush...as a rookie no less.


Jimmy, with the same height/weight, is Carter a clone of Leonard Floyd?
Expect MANY converted 3rd downs. :(  
x meadowlander : 6/11/2018 10:48 am : link
Giant fans were SPOILED for a solid decade-plus. 3 deep in DE's that could get after the passer for that entire run - Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP, Kiwanuka - NASCAR sets!!!

Now, we're back to how it was back around y2k, when NYG were DESPERATELY trying to find a solid bookend for Strahan. Remember how much that sucked?

I fear we're back at that place.

:(
Leonard was more well rounded and versatile  
JonC : 6/11/2018 10:49 am : link
Carter is athletic but was typically deployed downhill.
Think defense may take a few years.  
Giant John : 6/11/2018 10:52 am : link
Talent level is just not that good. Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.
Yeah, Floyd should a bit more athleticism and coverage skills  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 11:08 am : link
He was a ganglier body type even with same measurables.

Carter seems a bit more sturdy, powerful.

** showed  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 11:08 am : link
not should
The defense might be better than last year  
Greg from LI : 6/11/2018 11:10 am : link
But it has a pretty firm ceiling due to talent limitations.
You may well be right  
David B. : 6/11/2018 11:15 am : link
Quote:
Scheme based rather than talent base = no pass rush


You may well be right. But I was basing the assumption on what the Cards did last year. They had one stud -- Chandler Jones, and a bunch of contributors who had no where near double digit sacks.

I think the Giants will have a similar look, with Vernon leading the way (not approaching Jones' 17 sacks, but I could see him getting maybe 8-12).

Look, they were 29th last year. Maybe they get it up between 20-25? They have a bunch of unknown young guys. Hopefully some of them will surprise. Who knows.

I don't expect it to be what it was when they had 3 pass rushing studs on the DL.
Every single comment on this thread is looking at pass rush  
Dave on the UWS : 6/11/2018 11:56 am : link
through 4-3 scheme glasses. With the exception of when the Giants had LT "blitzing" on every play, ALL 3-4 defenses create pass rush with scheme. The vanilla way is to just send the outside LB plus the front 3. The more diverse the scheme, the less necessary it is to have superior talent to consistently win 1-1 battles. Yes they have to win battles, but there should also be times where a blitzer is has a free run at the QB. We have faster more athletic players in the front 7. Plus Jenkins and Collins have shown to be good blitzers from the secondary. The potential is there to get pretty decent production from a pass rush perspective. Nobody can truly say though since the scheme is radically different from last year.
Scheme works  
NYG007 : 6/11/2018 12:03 pm : link
Its been proven in Ariz with a mix of vets and youngsters. Also, Bill B doesn't need superstars on D.

Scheme will help our pass rush, not concerned yet. The fact that we are adding LB's, OL and have a proven defensive & offensive scheme coming to Big Blue. I am excited.
RE: Scheme works  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2018 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13988656 NYG007 said:
Quote:
Its been proven in Ariz with a mix of vets and youngsters. Also, Bill B doesn't need superstars on D.

Scheme will help our pass rush, not concerned yet. The fact that we are adding LB's, OL and have a proven defensive & offensive scheme coming to Big Blue. I am excited.


Agree with this
Scheme does not replace talent....  
Doomster : 6/11/2018 12:27 pm : link
Outside of OV, NONE of the DLmen are talented at getting to the qb......and OV either gets nicked during the season or misses time completely.....so yes, this is a pivotal year for OV....he is getting 13M this year, but if a post june 1st casualty next year, he nets the Giants 11M the next two years....

As for our LB'ers, it is wishful thinking that they can provide pressure....maybe they can, but we have no idea, at this moment....

Somebody posted last season, that the defense could possibly take a step backwards, and was tarred and feathered by BBI....he was right....it wasn't just the injuries, there was film.....and some of the adjustments by Spags, just didn't make sense, like leaving the deep center of the defense wide open....

These guys will have to mesh quickly together.....and if they don't, then the offense has to carry this team....but if the OL doesn't show improvement, this can turn into a sh*t show real fast....

Shurm has to really get this team ready in preseason, by playing his starters, longer than Mac did the last two seasons.....and Eli has to show something in preseason.....flipping a switch when a season starts does not always work.....

I do think this team has an outside shot at a wild card, if injuries are limited, if Eli still has something left, and if we get a few breaks.....but if it doesn't make the playoffs, I hope to see improvement, and maybe we can be spoilers, and play some meaningful games after Halloween.....this team has to learn to have a winning attitude once again......
Carter is too athletic to be the “Rush” LB. Vernon probably will rush  
Ivan15 : 6/11/2018 12:41 pm : link
more than Martin and Carter combined.

Carter will develop into a more classic OLB, playing More like Carl Banks.
I really hope Carter ends up being a solid pro  
Knee of Theismann : 6/11/2018 12:42 pm : link
But I will say watching film on him he tends to get tied up pretty easily on a block, and his 4.4 40 speed at the combine although impressive I don't believe translates into Dwight Freeny - like speed off the edge. And he doesn't seem to have a ton of quickness/agility, more just straight-ahead speed
+1 David B  
idiotsavant : 6/11/2018 1:31 pm : link
Then, not only they wont know which 5. But which gaps, spots or techniques OF those 5.

Kicks Ass.
I have no idea  
mattlawson : 6/11/2018 1:48 pm : link
But both lines need to play better This year for us to have a shot. Football 101 and captain obvious
RE: Carter is too athletic to be the “Rush” LB.  
Simms11 : 6/11/2018 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13988701 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
more than Martin and Carter combined.

Carter will develop into a more classic OLB, playing More like Carl Banks.


I think he's more comparable to Jessie Armstead and that's not a bad comparison, if he could be 50% of what Jessie was to this team.
Simms11 may be right but Carter is 250#. I think Amstead was about 220  
Ivan15 : 6/11/2018 2:48 pm : link
Collins and Armstead may be a better comparison.

From the highlights I saw, Carter at UGA did not rush often from the end position. When he rushed, it was from the OLB spot.
Sum of its parts  
George from PA : 6/11/2018 3:51 pm : link
I expect a solid pass rush based on the 3 big guys collapsing the pocket.....and betcher sending 2 guys from different locations......OV coming from any part of the field....exploiting weaknesses and anyone else
Great discussion  
Rjanyg : 6/11/2018 4:32 pm : link
Personally I think that this defense will be pretty solid. I do expect pressure on the QB but from many angles, as some have said, the scheme brings 5 rushers and it can be from anywhere. Vernon is the most obvious player to have a chance to dominate but Kareem Martin is a pretty solid player, Avery Moss and Okwara also will have chance to play not to mention Zo Carter. Our DL will be huge with Snacks, Tomlinson and Hill. That is almost 1000 lbs of DL.

The key to our ability to rush the passer is to put teams in 3rd and long. 1st and 2nd down will be the key to this. Stopping the run will force teams to pass creating more pass rush opportunities.

One other factor would be that we actually might have an offense that can both possess the ball and maybe have a lead in the 4th quarter. Teams that become one dimensional and be forced to pass late in the game will again hopefully give the opportunity to hit the QB.

The personnel is decent. JPP, while a decent pass rusher was not performing at a very high level and his hand issue was not helping. Overall I think the pass rush will improve and part of the reason will be scheme.
I expect lots of blitzing, which means big plays both ways  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 4:38 pm : link
Hopefully this is the kind of defense that does its biggest damage in the turnover game, because I'd expect us to concede some big plays.
It seems like people are counting on blitzing to mask weaknesses  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 5:10 pm : link
but the whole concept of blitzing is compromising your ability to cover on the gamble that you can get to the QB before the QB can get to his receivers. It's not enough to just send 5 guys. Those 5 guys actually have to succeed, or else the coverage is toast.
TTH  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 5:16 pm : link
Yup. It's a reason I didn't love the Bettcher hire. I'd have preferred an approach that makes a team execute 8-10 plays in a row without making a mistake in order to earn points. It was a problem with Spanguolo's defenses at times too.

Just have to hope Bettcher & co. do a better job aligning the defense to strengths of the personnel than their predecessors.
There is an element of this that people are missing  
idiotsavant : 6/11/2018 5:20 pm : link
If two of the lbs are larger and have NO pass defense duties. Or nearly none...using them to rush the passer isn't opening up additional risk backside.

So, whereas it may be a nominal 'blitz' given that some insist of talking as if it's a classic 3/4...it's not a blitz in the sense as mentioned.... Risk wise.
Honestly, slightly below average in sacks, pressures and QB Hits  
SGMen : 6/11/2018 5:22 pm : link
I think DE/OLB Vernon will have a solid season for us and he'll be the only true, proven pass rusher that we have.

Ogletree, Martin, Collins will blitz at times and such but none of them is a standout.

Our hope has to lie in our starting DB's staying healthy! If any of these guys go down (Jenkins, Collins esp.) we are in trouble on defense.

I do like rookie BJ Hill, L Carter, and McIntosh but to expect them to produce early in the season especially is asking too much.
I think Bettcher will be okay, but they have obvious weaknesses  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/11/2018 5:22 pm : link
and it's going to suck when people conclude that he can't coach because he's got one pass rusher with any kind of resume on this front 7.

They couldn't possibly have fixed everything in one year, so I get it, but I'm quite honestly stunned at how many here seem to be expecting big things.
People expect big things every year  
Go Terps : 6/11/2018 5:28 pm : link
Shit last offseason I remember people predicting an unstoppable offense AND a defensive improvement over 2016. Anyone using the term "regression to the mean" was heavily criticized.

And this offseason everyone seems to feel great about the offense. I saw someone suggest that Beckham, Engram, Shepard, and Barkley would have like 4000 yards receiving combined between them. OK...
The offense better bounce back because we either need  
Jimmy Googs : 6/11/2018 5:29 pm : link
Barkley to control the TOP or Eli & Co to score a lot more than 17 points/game.

RE: The offense better bounce back because we either need  
Ira : 6/11/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 13988979 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Barkley to control the TOP or Eli & Co to score a lot more than 17 points/game.


That's the key and I think they'll do it, at least to a large extent.
On a 1-10 scale  
giantsFC : 6/11/2018 8:51 pm : link
I give it a strong 4
...  
christian : 6/11/2018 10:09 pm : link
I expect to play a lot of coverage. The secondary is paper thin.
20 to 25th  
madgiantscow009 : 6/11/2018 10:11 pm : link
range.
All I can say is Lorenzo  
prdave73 : 6/12/2018 2:49 am : link
Better be legit, because aside from Vernon the rest is a huge question mark. I'm really looking to see what we have in BJ Hill and McIntosh as well. McIntosh could be the dark horse imo. Hopefully he can get on the field soon.
RE: 20 to 25th  
SGMen : 6/12/2018 8:23 am : link
In comment 13989071 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
range.
I'm with you here. Simply put, outside of Vernon, we have no proven pass rush talent.

I'm not saying our linebackers will be terrible blitzing but to date, none of them are "proven pass rushers" that make teams double think their protections and confuse QBs and such.

The Giants may have to rely on rookies like BJ Hill, Mcintosh, Carter to be pass rushers and that is asking an awful lot.
Wish the Giants hadn't cut ties with both JPP and DRC.  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 6/12/2018 9:20 am : link
Two above average starters. Arguably the team's two best defensive players, Collins and Harrison, criticized management for releasing DRC. With the team committed to winning now, and with a cloud hanging over the head of Eli Apple, it didn't make much sense.

JPP certainly didn't play up to his salary, but he probably produced more than his replacement will. Remember that he had the talent for batting down passes at the LOS. He had five last year and has averaged almost six per season for his career.

Vernon, pretty amazingly, has only had one pass defense in his entire career.
TTH  
JonC : 6/12/2018 9:33 am : link
Agree again, a number of players with much to prove.

JPP and DRC were part of the culture problem, and were moved out. The End.
Interesting part of the equation  
bc4life : 6/12/2018 9:55 am : link
The front three - Harrison, Tomlinson, & Kill are very beefy and look like a great front for run stuffing, but think they all are going to surprise some people with the level of penetration they get. If teams struggle with that could be very beneficial for second level of pass rush.
RE: People expect big things every year  
mrvax : 6/12/2018 10:07 am : link
In comment 13988976 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Shit last offseason I remember people predicting an unstoppable offense AND a defensive improvement over 2016. Anyone using the term "regression to the mean" was heavily criticized.

And this offseason everyone seems to feel great about the offense. I saw someone suggest that Beckham, Engram, Shepard, and Barkley would have like 4000 yards receiving combined between them. OK...


And that's OK. I was one of the hopeful fans. My mistake was not realizing just how incompetent McAdoo was. Then came the injuries.

No clue to Bettcher's defense here but he did well in Arizona.

Our offense has improved the Oline and now we have Barkley.

If injuries are "normal" we should have a good year, IMO.
RE: TTH  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 6/12/2018 11:28 am : link
In comment 13989172 JonC said:
Quote:
Agree again, a number of players with much to prove.

JPP and DRC were part of the culture problem, and were moved out. The End.


DRC part of the culture problem? That would come as news to his teammates. Jenkins and Apple didn't get along with the coaching staff, either. And the coaches are gone.
He was and it got him a ticket out of town  
JonC : 6/12/2018 12:44 pm : link
and it's been beaten to death here.

YMMV
RE: I expect it to be a need that hamstrings them all season  
NYDCBlue : 6/12/2018 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13988414 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and a need that makes next offseason's hot issue very clear.


They did draft Macintosh to be a pass rushing end, he just needs to get healthy to see what we have.

Moss showed a few things to make me hopeful last year. I just worry about his scheme fit. At the least he can provide third down pass rush at end/OLB...

Outside of that, we may be screwed.
How Good?  
Percy : 6/12/2018 5:14 pm : link
Better.
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