After seeing the other thread, I felt compelled to make my own:
I'm a New York admitted attorney. I graduated from a good law school a year ago and since January I have been clerking for a judge. It's been a great general experience, but the clerkship is nearly up, the money hasn't been great, and in any case, the position was only meant to be an interim position. I now have to begin my actual legal career in a specific legal field.
The job search has been extremely daunting, to say the least. Either the listed position is not in my field (I was an IP concentration and most of my law school experience has been in that field, but at this point I'll do anything in transactional law with the exception of tax. I really don't think I'm cut out for litigation, but I do understand that many lawyers get their start in litigation.), or they require years of experience (most of them require 2 + 3 years of experience, at the minimum).
I've been using different job platforms like my school's job website, Indeed, LinkedIn, Law Crossing, etc., but so far no dice. I was wondering if anyone had any advice or maybe even an in. I would be eternally grateful for any help you may provide.
Start an LLC! My attorney did it and now he's a highly regarded "super lawyer" has been for years and still isn't even 40 yet..
LLC! LLC!
Anakim Defense Team LLC
You can do it bro. Best of luck either way
Checked those out as well. The catch is they only place attorneys with experience. They don't place attorneys straight out of law school.
Don't underestimate yourself ...
Don't underestimate yourself ...
This is what I was going to basically say....being young get out of your comfort zone and maybe you'll find something you like....ie litigating and it would make you a better attorney in the end having that type of experience. Best of luck
as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.
You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.
It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.
Quote:
you're at an age where you need to discover the world and taking risks will push you to your potential.
Don't underestimate yourself ...
This is what I was going to basically say....being young get out of your comfort zone and maybe you'll find something you like....ie litigating and it would make you a better attorney in the end having that type of experience. Best of luck
Agreed, get out of your comfort zones constantly, otherwise it's too easy to get sidetracked and left behind.
Don't underestimate yourself ...
What kinds of risks are you referring to?
It's a mindset ... the search doesn't have to be daunting, it can be a blank canvas for you to visualize where you want life to go.
Take risks, trust us.
as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.
You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.
It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.
Absolutely. I'm absolutely interested in corporate/compliance. The thing is I don't really know what it entails on a daily basis. I never took a class on compliance (but I have taken one on corporations and did quite well. I actually somewhat enjoyed it, with the exception of the accounting aspect. Haha).
In hindsight, I wish I had taken more classes in fields I never considered. Mediation, arbitration, real estate.... It's funny because in school you usually take classes you find interesting, where you like the professor, where you think you'll get a good grade...but school is really meant for exploring and truly finding yourself. I always knew from my passion about sports and entertainment (future Giants GM!) that I wanted to go into that field and so I concentrated in (soft) IP, but I discredited how popular that particular field was and how much competition there would be. I just knew that I would fight tooth and nail to be at the top of the field and thought that would be sufficient, but it's all about getting your foot in the door first. They're not waiting for me. Tough realization.
Take risks, trust us.
Well, I always wanted to work for the Giants.... Haha, but seriously, I actually did send a letter to 1925 Giants Drive. Never heard back from them.
For sure. I have. I've networked with quite a few people in industries other than law, but no bites so far.
Don't make the $ the determining factor: there are plenty of lawyers who make good money who hate or disdain what they do. The ones who are challenged in their work, don't feel like they're on a treadmill for "the man", and have to problem solve in their relationships with clients, those are the ones to emulate, if at all possible.
You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.
Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.
BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.
Don't make the $ the determining factor: there are plenty of lawyers who make good money who hate or disdain what they do. The ones who are challenged in their work, don't feel like they're on a treadmill for "the man", and have to problem solve in their relationships with clients, those are the ones to emulate, if at all possible.
That's fair. Like I said, the clerkship has been a fantastic experience. It was one thing to learn the abstract in the classroom, but to see how it's all done was an entirely different parallax. I can't say I haven't been jealous when I hear that my friends are making 100K+ straight out of law school and I'm earning peanuts but I do think the clerkship has been invaluable.
But it's ending soon. Someone is going to take my place in a couple of weeks. Simply put, it's not a long-term solution.
You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.
Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.
BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.
Money isn't the main issue (though it's obviously a huge factor). It's more about doing something that I love; that I can immerse myself in. That's the ultimate goal. In fact, law school was always a stepping stone of getting into the sports and entertainment industry in some capacity. It's always been my dream to work for the Giants (or any professional team but particularly the Giants). It was a way of setting myself apart from everyone else.
But with regard to litigation, I believe I'm not cut out for it, but at the same time I realize that many entry-level attorneys get their start in litigation. And just as important as the position itself is finding the right mentor. Having someone take me under his or her wing and show me the ropes. That's what I need more than anything. I'll sacrifice money in the short-term if it meant getting the right mentor.
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
Might be worth trying that avenue, and don't be afraid to ask for favors in general. People like to help other people.
I have been practicing 13 years now and one thing you should know is law school taught you next to nothing for your legal career.
You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.
Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.
BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.
With all due respect, this is terrible advice. The fact that the kid is out of school, coming to the end of his clerkship and STILL doesn't have a place to land yet screams that he does need to reduce his selectivity and focus on securing SOMETHING in or related to his preferred field.
I get tons of resumes from kids from well-ranked schools with clerkship, law journal and moot court experience who are a year or even two out of school still looking for their first associate position. It's a nightmare for them, because the reality is there are just way too many kids coming out of law school for the market to absorb. Lots of them end up going back to school for an LLM to give themselves a do-over on entering the job market.
So, my advice is to be relentless and get your foot in the door SOMEWHERE ASAP, before your degree and experience start to atrophy.
Either find a law firm suing trump & friends or find one defending trump & friends
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.
I check my school's job postings every day.
And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.
Cardozo
Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?
Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!
Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.
Might be worth trying that avenue, and don't be afraid to ask for favors in general. People like to help other people.
Did that as well. The judge provided me with a list of attorneys and firms who argued in front of him in housing court. I emailed most of them. Nothing came of it. He obviously couldn't call in any favors because I think that would be considered bribery.
Quote:
you don't have to take a job because that is the only job offered to you. Your credentials- Law Review & clerkship- show that.
You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.
Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.
BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.
With all due respect, this is terrible advice. The fact that the kid is out of school, coming to the end of his clerkship and STILL doesn't have a place to land yet screams that he does need to reduce his selectivity and focus on securing SOMETHING in or related to his preferred field.
I get tons of resumes from kids from well-ranked schools with clerkship, law journal and moot court experience who are a year or even two out of school still looking for their first associate position. It's a nightmare for them, because the reality is there are just way too many kids coming out of law school for the market to absorb. Lots of them end up going back to school for an LLM to give themselves a do-over on entering the job market.
So, my advice is to be relentless and get your foot in the door SOMEWHERE ASAP, before your degree and experience start to atrophy.
That's what I've been trying to do. I've exhausted all my options.
Once you are at that point, there is only one reason to keep doing it: the money.
So my advice is, if you want fulfillment, go ahead and travel, start a family, focus on your friends, or perhaps volunteer time for a good cause. But your work? Your work is really about money, and that should be your priority when it comes to your career. Do well enough, and you can retire while you still have some vitality left.
all the other judges will be in awe and want to hire you (at least for poker games).
and then if you get in a bind for cash because of your friend worm, you can borrow 10 grand from one of your friend judges.
Quote:
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.
I check my school's job postings every day.
And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.
Cardozo
A few more things, then.
First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.
Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.
Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.
Hope that helps.
Idk though man
I'm gonna say it again.. I REALLY think you should start an LLC and build your own practice from the ground up.
Office space is CHEAP these days .. just saying
Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?
Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!
Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.
Yep. I've checked government jobs. I actually applied to the NYC Law Department yesterday. I've also seen postings for federal government, from FBI agents to bureau jobs. Problem is that most of them are in DC and I'm only admitted to practice here in New York.
Quote:
In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:
Quote:
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.
I check my school's job postings every day.
And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.
Cardozo
A few more things, then.
First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.
Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.
Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.
Hope that helps.
Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.
I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.
I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.
Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha
Idk though man
I'm gonna say it again.. I REALLY think you should start an LLC and build your own practice from the ground up.
Office space is CHEAP these days .. just saying
I mean yes, I'm eligible. I'm an admitted to the NY Bar. But I know from personal experience that criminal defense is about as messy as it gets. Aside from not wanting to do litigation, I definitely don't want to do family law, criminal law, or mass torts/personal injury. Those fields are extremely messy and cases can last for ten years.
I hope you find what your lookIng for, I'm sure you will.
Hopefully BBI can give you a nice assist, if not, keep grinding it out , you'll be good.
I hope you find what your lookIng for, I'm sure you will.
Hopefully BBI can give you a nice assist, if not, keep grinding it out , you'll be good.
I appreciate it. Thank you.
all the other judges will be in awe and want to hire you (at least for poker games).
and then if you get in a bind for cash because of your friend worm, you can borrow 10 grand from one of your friend judges.
Excellent Rounders reference...well done pj
1 - target smaller offices and be willing to know it may be litigation. Unfortunately for you the ship has likely sailed in short term to get into a big IP firm. You can get there eventually but they have rigorous hiring procedures so they aren’t placing you now.
2 - Offering to work for free to show them your effort/skill is a great idea and one a lot of firms won’t pass up. Don’t just focus on places that are listing but actually mail resume to firms maybe 10-20 attorney large. If they do decide to hire they will have you already there.
3 - don’t worry about your first salary because at this point it won’t be great. Stay at firm for 2-3 years and try to switch to a place with more competitive comp then.
4 - have a long term plan once you get in place if you want to go in house and what skills will benefit you.
5 - look at consulting firms after you get your feet we
6 - look in other states that may not have same amount of attorneys but may have reciprocity with ny
Good luck, it sucks
Quote:
Federal Government agencies are always looking for attorneys. I'm not sure what the need is for attorneys right out of school, but I bet there are agencies searching for newer attorneys. Check out USAjobs.gov. And Im not saying in law enforcement. But agencies within the Treasury Department, CFPB, IRS etc. all have legal departments.
Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?
Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!
Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.
Yep. I've checked government jobs. I actually applied to the NYC Law Department yesterday. I've also seen postings for federal government, from FBI agents to bureau jobs. Problem is that most of them are in DC and I'm only admitted to practice here in New York.
If you are admitted in NY, you can waive into DC.
Quote:
In comment 13989513 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:
Quote:
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.
I check my school's job postings every day.
And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.
Cardozo
A few more things, then.
First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.
Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.
Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.
Hope that helps.
Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.
I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.
I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.
Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha
Ideally, you should email a pdf and also mail a hard copy. Note in the email that you are also sending a hard copy. That way you make it as easy as possible for the target to forward it to the right people. Emphasize that you are hungry, capable, and willing to prove yourself.
Honestly, if you hadn't said that litigation isn't for you, I would ask you to send me your resume so I could forward it to the folks in my NY office. But with you having said that, I think I would be doing you and my firm a disservice to recommend you.
1 - target smaller offices and be willing to know it may be litigation. Unfortunately for you the ship has likely sailed in short term to get into a big IP firm. You can get there eventually but they have rigorous hiring procedures so they aren’t placing you now.
2 - Offering to work for free to show them your effort/skill is a great idea and one a lot of firms won’t pass up. Don’t just focus on places that are listing but actually mail resume to firms maybe 10-20 attorney large. If they do decide to hire they will have you already there.
3 - don’t worry about your first salary because at this point it won’t be great. Stay at firm for 2-3 years and try to switch to a place with more competitive comp then.
4 - have a long term plan once you get in place if you want to go in house and what skills will benefit you.
5 - look at consulting firms after you get your feet we
6 - look in other states that may not have same amount of attorneys but may have reciprocity with ny
Good luck, it sucks
Thanks for the advice. As you said, going forward should be a much easier ride. For now, it's all about getting that first job and that necessary training. I just need to get my feet wet and have someone take me under his/her wing.
I just want to get my foot in the door so I can break the door down. I'm willing to take risks, but even that has proven to be fruitless so far. I'm just looking for someone to take a calculated gamble on me.
Quote:
In comment 13989540 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13989513 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:
Quote:
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.
Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.
Also, what law school? Just curious.
As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.
I check my school's job postings every day.
And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.
Cardozo
A few more things, then.
First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.
Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.
Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.
Hope that helps.
Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.
I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.
I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.
Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha
Ideally, you should email a pdf and also mail a hard copy. Note in the email that you are also sending a hard copy. That way you make it as easy as possible for the target to forward it to the right people. Emphasize that you are hungry, capable, and willing to prove yourself.
Honestly, if you hadn't said that litigation isn't for you, I would ask you to send me your resume so I could forward it to the folks in my NY office. But with you having said that, I think I would be doing you and my firm a disservice to recommend you.
Oddly enough, no one has ever recommended sending a hard copy. I mean obviously that was the modus operandi before the internet, but it would seem to me that in this day and age, sending a resume in both an email and via snail mail would be redundant. However, if you think it really makes a good impression with them, I'll do it.
I appreciate it. If you know anyone who is hiring, I would be more than happy to send you my resume (IP or general).
(1) Give ( http://www.legalauthority.com/targeted-mailing.php ) a chance. It's worth $500-$1000 and they'll print out hundreds of resumes, cover letters, envelopes to firms that you're targetting and you'll be able to spam hundreds of firms. You're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a few interviews out of it.
(2) Reach out to your alumni network. Search the internet for alumni, reach out to them and set up time to talk about the job market to see if they have ideas or just to learn more about what they do. You're not asking them for a job, you're building a network.
(3) Ultimately, I ended doing what you said you didn't want to do in the OP. I went into tax. A lot of lawyers are afraid to do math, and there's a demand for lawyers to do this type of work. In-house tax departments often have large amounts of tax and benefits lawyers, so expressing interest here could be a path to a solid career. NYU's tax LLM is a good way in the door. It's not as hard as you'd think to get in, but you'll need to think long and hard before taking on additional major student loan debt.
(1) Give ( http://www.legalauthority.com/targeted-mailing.php ) a chance. It's worth $500-$1000 and they'll print out hundreds of resumes, cover letters, envelopes to firms that you're targetting and you'll be able to spam hundreds of firms. You're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a few interviews out of it.
(2) Reach out to your alumni network. Search the internet for alumni, reach out to them and set up time to talk about the job market to see if they have ideas or just to learn more about what they do. You're not asking them for a job, you're building a network.
(3) Ultimately, I ended doing what you said you didn't want to do in the OP. I went into tax. A lot of lawyers are afraid to do math, and there's a demand for lawyers to do this type of work. In-house tax departments often have large amounts of tax and benefits lawyers, so expressing interest here could be a path to a solid career. NYU's tax LLM is a good way in the door. It's not as hard as you'd think to get in, but you'll need to think long and hard before taking on additional major student loan debt.
1) Never heard of that, but I'll look into it. It's totally legit? Not a scam?
2) Done that. I know that's the best way and I've met a few alumni (either by phone or I visited their offices), but yeah, it never went anywhere. They either don't respond, they forward or walk my resume over to HR, or simply don't feel comfortable talking to the hiring partners on my behalf since they don't really know me.
3) Oh definitely. Tax lawyers are considered the creme de la creme of the legal profession. But I guess this goes to what the others have said: doing something you're passionate about. I can't say that I know a whole lot about tax law as I've never taken a class in it, but I've heard horror stories about how it's terribly boring memorizing the IRC and while the money is great, it's not exactly a rewarding field.
I can't say that I know exactly what field I want to go into (ideally IP, but I'm keeping my mind open), but I do know what fields I don't want to go into: Tax, T&E, Personal Injury, Mass Torts, Crim.
JonC is right, you need to broaden your horizons and take chances. I imagine you've still pigeonholed yourself quite a bit by not considering a large number of alternatives.
Did you ask the judge for leads?
Broadcast your interest to family and friends. Usually a personal connection helps a lot. Unless you have a family to support, be willing to work for nothing or almost nothing for 6 months to a year in your area of interest to get some experience.
As someone else mentioned, look to government agencies if the work will be relevant to your long term goals. (I worked at the patent office for a year and was in high demand after that while still a night student at law school.)
Did you ask the judge for leads?
Broadcast your interest to family and friends. Usually a personal connection helps a lot. Unless you have a family to support, be willing to work for nothing or almost nothing for 6 months to a year in your area of interest to get some experience.
As someone else mentioned, look to government agencies if the work will be relevant to your long term goals. (I worked at the patent office for a year and was in high demand after that while still a night student at law school.)
Soft IP. I don't have a science background.
I did ask the judge for leads. The only thing he could provide were attorneys and firms who argued in front of him back when he was in housing court, so only landlord/tenant attorneys. I emailed most of them (even though L&T is not what I want to do), but it never led anywhere. I don't think he could personally make phone calls to anyone because that may be seen as a form of bribery.
Did that as well. That's the main impetus for why I created this thread. Thought maybe something substantive can come of it.
It's funny you say that because I've heard people tell me to have an elevator pitch ready with regard to anything. Hell, I may be in an elevator with John Mara or Steve Tisch one day. But to be honest, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to sell myself without seeming generic and cookie-cutter. It's something I'm trying to learn.
Quote:
And make sure you have your elevator pitch down cold and ask thoughtful questions that demonstrated your prep work
Did that as well. That's the main impetus for why I created this thread. Thought maybe something substantive can come of it.
It's funny you say that because I've heard people tell me to have an elevator pitch ready with regard to anything. Hell, I may be in an elevator with John Mara or Steve Tisch one day. But to be honest, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to sell myself without seeming generic and cookie-cutter. It's something I'm trying to learn.
While you are searching you may want to take CLE courses in technology contracting (especially cloud/SaaS deals) and privacy law two areas that are in very high demand at the moment . Go for the legal knowledge and definitely stay for the mingling. You may also want to consider joining a bar association or association of corporate counsel and volunteer to help out with organizing an event
Quote:
In comment 13989797 Les in TO said:
Quote:
And make sure you have your elevator pitch down cold and ask thoughtful questions that demonstrated your prep work
Did that as well. That's the main impetus for why I created this thread. Thought maybe something substantive can come of it.
It's funny you say that because I've heard people tell me to have an elevator pitch ready with regard to anything. Hell, I may be in an elevator with John Mara or Steve Tisch one day. But to be honest, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to sell myself without seeming generic and cookie-cutter. It's something I'm trying to learn.
i highly recommend toastmasters for developing an elevator pitch speaking off the cuff etc
While you are searching you may want to take CLE courses in technology contracting (especially cloud/SaaS deals) and privacy law two areas that are in very high demand at the moment . Go for the legal knowledge and definitely stay for the mingling. You may also want to consider joining a bar association or association of corporate counsel and volunteer to help out with organizing an event
Toastmasters International? Never heard of it, but I'll look into it.
I've started taking CLE courses, but they're so expensive! I mean ridiculously expensive. I'm a member of the NY State Bar, NY City Bar (Sports Law Committee), and NYCLA.
Sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things:Generally speaking in person networking opportunities are far more powerful than digital email contacts. You just have to keep at it, lots of coffee meetings (don’t sound desperate and also seek opportunities to offer something in exchange whether it’s a great article or contact, so it is a mutually beneficial conversation ) and volunteering
Good luck
Sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things:Generally speaking in person networking opportunities are far more powerful than digital email contacts. You just have to keep at it, lots of coffee meetings (don’t sound desperate and also seek opportunities to offer something in exchange whether it’s a great article or contact, so it is a mutually beneficial conversation ) and volunteering
Good luck
I just signed up for the introductory meeting on Thursday. I'll let you know how it is!
Thanks!
I always liked the idea of public interest law, but it never seemed to fit into my vision, meaning I always wanted to practice sports and entertainment law, or real estate, or something of the like. But I did toy around with the idea of going into First Amendment/con law and working for like the ACLU or ADL.
I did provide legal services before law school (represented unfairly laid off and penalized employees in labor court) and during law school (Division of Human Rights) and they were great, but right now I'm looking for the right opportunity in my chosen field (or something that I can learn to love) and use it as a stepping stone on the way to my legal career in a specific area of the law.
Quote:
Federal Government agencies are always looking for attorneys. I'm not sure what the need is for attorneys right out of school, but I bet there are agencies searching for newer attorneys. Check out USAjobs.gov. And Im not saying in law enforcement. But agencies within the Treasury Department, CFPB, IRS etc. all have legal departments.
Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?
Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!
Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.
Yep. I've checked government jobs. I actually applied to the NYC Law Department yesterday. I've also seen postings for federal government, from FBI agents to bureau jobs. Problem is that most of them are in DC and I'm only admitted to practice here in New York.
as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.
You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.
It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.
The demand for privacy and compliance attorneys is only going to go up. If it's something you're interested in, look into getting your CIPP/US and more importantly CIPP/E certifications. Take a few classes, or read some books on GRC and some cybersecurity principles.
Quote:
almost all of our legal counsel is specialized in IP.
as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.
You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.
It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.
The demand for privacy and compliance attorneys is only going to go up. If it's something you're interested in, look into getting your CIPP/US and more importantly CIPP/E certifications. Take a few classes, or read some books on GRC and some cybersecurity principles.
Will do. Thank you. The funny thing is that I never considered compliance because it was always considered pseudo law. You don't have to be an admitted attorney to practice compliance as it is JD preferred.
I'm too old to tell you how to go a out finding a job in today's legal world. But I can tell you what I wanted when i was hiring.
First, I couldn't care less what courses you took in law school. 100% meaningless to me.
Secondly, while your experience as an attorney was relevant, I was always much more concerned about trying to discover who you were. I've always believed there are only two types of workers:
(1) self motivated/driven people who care about being the very best at what they do, no matter what that is - whether that was flipping hamburgers for MacDonalds or working for me.
(2) people who really don't give a shit - who only care about getting through the day with the fewest amount of hassles.
Finding the first kind of people was soooo much more important to me than their experience - because I knew that the first group would learn what they needed to know soon enough, and be much more valuable to my office over the long term, even if it meant a much greater amount of investment of my time in the short term providing tutelage.
So, unless I was hiring someone whom I wanted to have 10+ years experience to handle my firm's largest cases (my practice for 40+ years was always litigation, although the title work we did had a tremendous amount of complex commercial real estate as a background).
I'm too old to tell you how to go a out finding a job in today's legal world. But I can tell you what I wanted when i was hiring.
First, I couldn't care less what courses you took in law school. 100% meaningless to me.
Secondly, while your experience as an attorney was relevant, I was always much more concerned about trying to discover who you were. I've always believed there are only two types of workers:
(1) self motivated/driven people who care about being the very best at what they do, no matter what that is - whether that was flipping hamburgers for MacDonalds or working for me.
(2) people who really don't give a shit - who only care about getting through the day with the fewest amount of hassles.
Finding the first kind of people was soooo much more important to me than their experience - because I knew that the first group would learn what they needed to know soon enough, and be much more valuable to my office over the long term, even if it meant a much greater amount of investment of my time in the short term providing tutelage.
So, unless I was hiring someone whom I wanted to have 10+ years experience to handle my firm's largest cases (my practice for 40+ years was always litigation, although the title work we did had a tremendous amount of complex commercial real estate as a background).
Bill, I want to be the best. I take pride in my work and I want to be someone that my co-workers can rely and depend on. I want to immerse myself in my work and make a long-lasting career out of it.
Quote:
and then was MGR of corp legal dept for 15 years... so have quite a lot of experience hiring attorneys
I'm too old to tell you how to go a out finding a job in today's legal world. But I can tell you what I wanted when i was hiring.
First, I couldn't care less what courses you took in law school. 100% meaningless to me.
Secondly, while your experience as an attorney was relevant, I was always much more concerned about trying to discover who you were. I've always believed there are only two types of workers:
(1) self motivated/driven people who care about being the very best at what they do, no matter what that is - whether that was flipping hamburgers for MacDonalds or working for me.
(2) people who really don't give a shit - who only care about getting through the day with the fewest amount of hassles.
Finding the first kind of people was soooo much more important to me than their experience - because I knew that the first group would learn what they needed to know soon enough, and be much more valuable to my office over the long term, even if it meant a much greater amount of investment of my time in the short term providing tutelage.
So, unless I was hiring someone whom I wanted to have 10+ years experience to handle my firm's largest cases (my practice for 40+ years was always litigation, although the title work we did had a tremendous amount of complex commercial real estate as a background).
Bill, I want to be the best. I take pride in my work and I want to be someone that my co-workers can rely and depend on. I want to immerse myself in my work and make a long-lasting career out of it.
Two other things I looked for when hiring attorneys:
1. high job turnover (5 jobs in 5 years) ... was always a red flag, enough that I usually threw those resumes out without further consideration
2. don't sit home ... Anakim, the one thing I want from a young attorney is that they don't sit home if they are trying to get their first job (after a clerkship)... in other words, go volunteer at the public defender's office... maybe you'll be working for free, but you'll be learning valuable things while you search for your real job. But don't just sit home.
Good luck.
Quote:
In comment 13990331 baadbill said:
Quote:
and then was MGR of corp legal dept for 15 years... so have quite a lot of experience hiring attorneys
I'm too old to tell you how to go a out finding a job in today's legal world. But I can tell you what I wanted when i was hiring.
First, I couldn't care less what courses you took in law school. 100% meaningless to me.
Secondly, while your experience as an attorney was relevant, I was always much more concerned about trying to discover who you were. I've always believed there are only two types of workers:
(1) self motivated/driven people who care about being the very best at what they do, no matter what that is - whether that was flipping hamburgers for MacDonalds or working for me.
(2) people who really don't give a shit - who only care about getting through the day with the fewest amount of hassles.
Finding the first kind of people was soooo much more important to me than their experience - because I knew that the first group would learn what they needed to know soon enough, and be much more valuable to my office over the long term, even if it meant a much greater amount of investment of my time in the short term providing tutelage.
So, unless I was hiring someone whom I wanted to have 10+ years experience to handle my firm's largest cases (my practice for 40+ years was always litigation, although the title work we did had a tremendous amount of complex commercial real estate as a background).
Bill, I want to be the best. I take pride in my work and I want to be someone that my co-workers can rely and depend on. I want to immerse myself in my work and make a long-lasting career out of it.
Two other things I looked for when hiring attorneys:
1. high job turnover (5 jobs in 5 years) ... was always a red flag, enough that I usually threw those resumes out without further consideration
2. don't sit home ... Anakim, the one thing I want from a young attorney is that they don't sit home if they are trying to get their first job (after a clerkship)... in other words, go volunteer at the public defender's office... maybe you'll be working for free, but you'll be learning valuable things while you search for your real job. But don't just sit home.
Good luck.
1. Well I have that, but mainly because my previous positions were only meant to last for the summer or for a semester. They weren't meant to be long-term.
2. Understood and that's actually what I fear. I had my clerkship lined up in November after I found out I passed the Bar. Between the time I took the UBE and found out the results I was basically in No Man's Land like most recent graduates. It was until we found out the results that everyone was sorted into two categories: those who passed and those who didn't.
But yeah, my clerkship ends in a couple of weeks so I need to have something lined up. I'd be very grateful if you could forward my resume to any firm that is hiring in the Five Boroughs.
I 100% agree that you cannot sit home. Get out there and intern somewhere -- preferably somewhere that you can earn a permanent paid position through demonstrated merit, or where you will gain invaluable experience. Whatever you do, don't allow yourself to develop a void in your resume -- a lengthy time period without a corresponding position.
I also tend to ask what Myers-Briggs profile people are (I hate working with perceiving personality types, who drive me nuts with procrastination) and SAT/LSAT scores (want to get a sense of whether the person has the raw mental horsepower for the work). Law journal experience is also close to a requirement for me, because it teaches kids the importance of providing support for every assertion. Happily, you are set on that score.
Bill
Understood. I'm open.
Because of private issues, I can't live outside the five boroughs at this point
Quote:
Broaden your search to not just include the five boroughs. You shouldnt be married to staying in NYC, especially right out of law school
Because of private issues, I can't live outside the five boroughs at this point
To clarify, I could commute to like White Plains or Great Neck or EAST RUTHERFORD, but I can't live far from the five boroughs (specifically Manhattan) for personal reasons.
I've thought of that, but it can also limit your options, no? I mean the whole notion of going to law school and getting a JD is to practice law, and down the road that may be an option, but right after law school? Seems awfully risky.
What fields were you referring to? Just curious.
My how time flies. :)
My how time flies. :)
What I really need is for you to come back here so we can go on drunken tirades and run into ex-wrestlers.
And speaking of drunken tirades...
It's a bit of both. I've had a couple of interviews here and there (and I'll be the first to admit that I don't think I make the best impression because I'm very robotic and systematic in my answers. I don't show a lot of personality and basically go off a script, which I'm sure seems disingenuous. The truth is I'm a nervous wreck before these interviews as they never get any easier and I'm not that quick on my feet so it's almost like I have to go into automaton mode in order to survive. It's something I'm working on. Maybe the Toastmaster's thing tonight will help). But I would say 8 out of 10 times I don't even receive a response. I'm not exactly sure why. My GPA was solid (not top 25%, but solid overall), I have the extracurriculars, I had my note published in a respectable journal, I have good legal experience (albeit not much in law firms)...
Quote:
Are you getting interviews and not getting jobs or just not getting interviews at all?
And speaking of drunken tirades...
It's a bit of both. I've had a couple of interviews here and there (and I'll be the first to admit that I don't think I make the best impression because I'm very robotic and systematic in my answers. I don't show a lot of personality and basically go off a script, which I'm sure seems disingenuous. The truth is I'm a nervous wreck before these interviews as they never get any easier and I'm not that quick on my feet so it's almost like I have to go into automaton mode in order to survive. It's something I'm working on. Maybe the Toastmaster's thing tonight will help). But I would say 8 out of 10 times I don't even receive a response. I'm not exactly sure why. My GPA was solid (not top 25%, but solid overall), I have the extracurriculars, I had my note published in a respectable journal, I have good legal experience (albeit not much in law firms)...
And BTW, that's the main reason why I don't think I'd be a good litigator. I get flustered and rattled easily and I'm not that quick on my feet. I can't just shoot from the hip. I have to sit down, digest, and contemplate.
Thank you so much. I do intend to be the Giants GM one day so look out, world!
I don't really know what interviews for lawyers are like, but think of ways to differentiate yourself - hunt down articles written by the people you're interviewing with, flash a skill of yours without outright saying it, etc.
I'm maybe the world's greatest interviewee.
Also, try to take a Dale Carnegie course (if you have the cash, it's expensive).
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 13991017 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Are you getting interviews and not getting jobs or just not getting interviews at all?
And speaking of drunken tirades...
It's a bit of both. I've had a couple of interviews here and there (and I'll be the first to admit that I don't think I make the best impression because I'm very robotic and systematic in my answers. I don't show a lot of personality and basically go off a script, which I'm sure seems disingenuous. The truth is I'm a nervous wreck before these interviews as they never get any easier and I'm not that quick on my feet so it's almost like I have to go into automaton mode in order to survive. It's something I'm working on. Maybe the Toastmaster's thing tonight will help). But I would say 8 out of 10 times I don't even receive a response. I'm not exactly sure why. My GPA was solid (not top 25%, but solid overall), I have the extracurriculars, I had my note published in a respectable journal, I have good legal experience (albeit not much in law firms)...
And BTW, that's the main reason why I don't think I'd be a good litigator. I get flustered and rattled easily and I'm not that quick on my feet. I can't just shoot from the hip. I have to sit down, digest, and contemplate.
I was naturally like this right out of law school as well. I was scared to go to court by myself at first. But, as with anything else, you get better with practice.
I've done a couple of mock interviews and they can sense my anxiety. I often use my hands when talking (which is a big no no in interviews) and I swallow my words. There are prescription drugs for performance anxiety, but I'm wary of taking them, as I don't want to have to deal with the potential side-effects (drowsiness? Lack of concentration?).
Thank you so much! I'll email you right now.
Be comfortable in your own skin.
As for being a trial attorney/litigator, thinking quickly “on your feet” really isn’t something I’d worry much about. The truth is that there is only one way to learn how to be a litigator - and that is by trying cases. In my opinion it probably takes 10 jury trials before you get past the nervousness of being on trial (of just going through the process). And it probably took me 20+ jury trials to get to the point where I really understood how to try a case (and, btw, until you have 10-20 jury trials, you have no idea how to conduct depositions or other discovery).
At the end of the day, success at being a litigator is more about understanding WHY you are trying a particular case - and being thoroughly prepared - than it is “thinking on your feet” ... and, when you are thoroughly prepared (and have tried enough cases that the Rules of Evidence and trial procedure is second nature), then “thinking on your feet” is really simply responding to unanticipated events in a very natural way based upon your in depth knowledge of the case (the issues and the facts).
So don’t let that scare you away from litigation. But, having sau$ that, litigation isn’t for everybody. When I was on trial, it was all absorbing, starting 2-3 weeks before jury selection until verdict ... I didn’t do anything else except eat, sleep, and focus on my case. And I prepared for 10x more cases than I tried (I.e. unfortunately, many many cases didn’t settle until minutes before jury selection ... meaning my life was all about 1 file for 2-3 weeks only to have the case settle ... and very often I had 4-5 cases listed for trial on any particular Mon morning) ... I had 53 jury cases go to verdict over a 40 year career ... doesn’t sound like much, but in truth it really is quite a lot of jury trials.
Anyway, back to interviews ... be proud of who you are and take the position in an interview that you certainly don’t know everything there is to know ... and you don’t have all the experience others may have ... but what you do have is the confidence in yourself that you can and will learn @nd master anything you need to.
Be comfortable in your own skin.
As for being a trial attorney/litigator, thinking quickly “on your feet” really isn’t something I’d worry much about. The truth is that there is only one way to learn how to be a litigator - and that is by trying cases. In my opinion it probably takes 10 jury trials before you get past the nervousness of being on trial (of just going through the process). And it probably took me 20+ jury trials to get to the point where I really understood how to try a case (and, btw, until you have 10-20 jury trials, you have no idea how to conduct depositions or other discovery).
At the end of the day, success at being a litigator is more about understanding WHY you are trying a particular case - and being thoroughly prepared - than it is “thinking on your feet” ... and, when you are thoroughly prepared (and have tried enough cases that the Rules of Evidence and trial procedure is second nature), then “thinking on your feet” is really simply responding to unanticipated events in a very natural way based upon your in depth knowledge of the case (the issues and the facts).
So don’t let that scare you away from litigation. But, having sau$ that, litigation isn’t for everybody. When I was on trial, it was all absorbing, starting 2-3 weeks before jury selection until verdict ... I didn’t do anything else except eat, sleep, and focus on my case. And I prepared for 10x more cases than I tried (I.e. unfortunately, many many cases didn’t settle until minutes before jury selection ... meaning my life was all about 1 file for 2-3 weeks only to have the case settle ... and very often I had 4-5 cases listed for trial on any particular Mon morning) ... I had 53 jury cases go to verdict over a 40 year career ... doesn’t sound like much, but in truth it really is quite a lot of jury trials.
Anyway, back to interviews ... be proud of who you are and take the position in an interview that you certainly don’t know everything there is to know ... and you don’t have all the experience others may have ... but what you do have is the confidence in yourself that you can and will learn @nd master anything you need to.
Thanks for the encouraging words, Bill. That's definitely hard, as you're trying to stand out from the crowd and naturally, bullshitting and over-inflating (really embellishing) one's accomplishments are common in interviews. It's like I can't say that I was in the Order of the Coif, or a member of Law Review, so I'm already at a disadvantage and I need to compensate in other ways, even if it means STRETCHING the truth.
So true. I've read many depositions and have conducted e-Discovery, but being the one to actually produce those things is a whole 'nother ball game.
And I hate making excuses like this, but I also don't seem to have that killer instinct. I'm not loud, or obnoxious, or abrasive. I don't have that bravado. And I HATE going against the little man. I don't know if I can sacrifice my morals in order to defend or prosecute someone that I sympathize with or feel pity for.
I do think I can participate in litigation, as Cardozo prepared me well for it (filing motions, affidavits, opp. papers; raising the necessary objections), but it's the intangible stuff...the poise and composure that you need at trial that they didn't teach because frankly, I'm not sure it can be taught. Like in interviews, I'm very systematic in my approach. If someone throws a curveball, it throws me off of my game and I end up mumbling and fumbling my way through improvisation.
As for the unexpected curve, that happens in every trial. But, again, handling those things comes from experience trying cases (it is far,far different during jury trial 25 than it is during trial 5) ... and anyone who isn’t nervous trying a case is either a liar and just doesn’t give a shit ... you are going to be nervous... it’s just that the things you are nervou# about change with experience ... in the beginning I was nervous about not looking foolish... knowing when to make an objection... being afraid to say “no questions” ... jus5 getting through the trial itself ... but then that changes with time ... you still get nervous, but your nervous about whether you made the right decision not to call a particular witness... or deciding to call out your adversary’s case in your opening, exposing your strategy...
In the beginning, I used to hate the idea of having someone watch me while I was trying a case ... by 20 trials I would insist I had someon3 there to line up witnesses, to watch a particular juror’s reactions, etc etc
I believe most lawyers can be good trial lawyers ... it really has less to do about being good on you4 feet and more about having the opportunity to try cases to verdict so that you get the experience with the process, the procedural rules and evidence ... and you learn the hard way how your deposition questioning sucked and your transcript was no help at trial because while you understood what was meant at the tim3 of the deep, the transcript was wishy washy and unuseabke at trial ..,
Experience + hard work preparing your case + having some control over the selection of the cases you actually try to verdict = success at trial
As for the unexpected curve, that happens in every trial. But, again, handling those things comes from experience trying cases (it is far,far different during jury trial 25 than it is during trial 5) ... and anyone who isn’t nervous trying a case is either a liar and just doesn’t give a shit ... you are going to be nervous... it’s just that the things you are nervou# about change with experience ... in the beginning I was nervous about not looking foolish... knowing when to make an objection... being afraid to say “no questions” ... jus5 getting through the trial itself ... but then that changes with time ... you still get nervous, but your nervous about whether you made the right decision not to call a particular witness... or deciding to call out your adversary’s case in your opening, exposing your strategy...
In the beginning, I used to hate the idea of having someone watch me while I was trying a case ... by 20 trials I would insist I had someon3 there to line up witnesses, to watch a particular juror’s reactions, etc etc
I believe most lawyers can be good trial lawyers ... it really has less to do about being good on you4 feet and more about having the opportunity to try cases to verdict so that you get the experience with the process, the procedural rules and evidence ... and you learn the hard way how your deposition questioning sucked and your transcript was no help at trial because while you understood what was meant at the tim3 of the deep, the transcript was wishy washy and unuseabke at trial ..,
Experience + hard work preparing your case + having some control over the selection of the cases you actually try to verdict = success at trial
Interesting way to look at it. Thank you. Maybe if I was brought along slowly. Sat in the second chair for a while.
Hi Max. It's listed in my profile.
Haha, we know better, but I can tell you, after six months of reading motions, affirmations, and affidavits, I can tell you for a fact that a lot of lawyers are borderline incoherent and incomprehensible...especially the ones from the big law. I read an affidavit from someone at Proskauer and it looked like it was written by a fourth grader.
Quote:
iPad has been substituting shifted characters (i.e. numbers/symbols) like crazy ... and I see that it changed a you're to your... I DO know better (haha)
Haha, we know better, but I can tell you, after six months of reading motions, affirmations, and affidavits, I can tell you for a fact that a lot of lawyers are borderline incoherent and incomprehensible...especially the ones from the big law. I read an affidavit from someone at Proskauer and it looked like it was written by a fourth grader.
Yea, I agree, it's really appalling. And writing is such an important legal skill. It's one thing to write a 40 page legal brief. It's quite another to reduce those 40 pages down to 10 (after 20-30 revisions) so that the legal argument jumps off the page - screams with every carefully selected word. That's what good lawyering requires - yet so many struggle with simple grammar.
So, if you are looking for paying gigs while you search, take a look at the Posse List and sign up for their email. They send out tons of blasts for document review gigs. Nothing glamorous, but they are a living if you need to make money.
I did it for a time and actually found my way into my area of the law (special education law) by one of their postings.
So, if you are looking for paying gigs while you search, take a look at the Posse List and sign up for their email. They send out tons of blasts for document review gigs. Nothing glamorous, but they are a living if you need to make money.
I did it for a time and actually found my way into my area of the law (special education law) by one of their postings.
That's what I fear. That I'll be in No Man's Land in a few weeks, spending my days writing cover letters and applying for jobs.
Posse List? I'll look into it. I did one e-Discovery project to earn a few bucks, which was okay.
BTW, Maximus, I never received an email from you. Just wanted to make sure you had mine.
Quote:
However - I firmly believe that it is much easier to get a job when you have a job and without large resume gaps.
So, if you are looking for paying gigs while you search, take a look at the Posse List and sign up for their email. They send out tons of blasts for document review gigs. Nothing glamorous, but they are a living if you need to make money.
I did it for a time and actually found my way into my area of the law (special education law) by one of their postings.
That's what I fear. That I'll be in No Man's Land in a few weeks, spending my days writing cover letters and applying for jobs.
Posse List? I'll look into it. I did one e-Discovery project to earn a few bucks, which was okay.
BTW, Maximus, I never received an email from you. Just wanted to make sure you had mine.
Yes. definitely check it out -- I never unsubscribed after moving to my permanent gig, and they seem to send 10 emails a week or so looking to staff reviews. If you take one with decent OT you can make a ton and then take time off to travel, etc. in between them.
Most of the big staffing agencies require you to register for consideration for projects, so I would join the Posse List email blast for NYC and reach out to companies staffing with your resume, just to get in their loop. I ended up winding my way into an entire new career field (first to Corp Counsel, then DOE and now as parents' counsel) through my review jobs after I got laid off in the recession of 08. Really saw me through and allowed me to be more selective since I had a good income from.
I also had great luck, was staffed on one case at Cravath for 3.5 years, and the money was absurd. I'll shoot you an email so you can ask me any questions that come up in this area. Good luck. I echo the sentiments of other BBI'ers -- you've done great in your evolution over the past years. You'll find your niche.
Quote:
In comment 13994931 jpkmets said:
Quote:
However - I firmly believe that it is much easier to get a job when you have a job and without large resume gaps.
So, if you are looking for paying gigs while you search, take a look at the Posse List and sign up for their email. They send out tons of blasts for document review gigs. Nothing glamorous, but they are a living if you need to make money.
I did it for a time and actually found my way into my area of the law (special education law) by one of their postings.
That's what I fear. That I'll be in No Man's Land in a few weeks, spending my days writing cover letters and applying for jobs.
Posse List? I'll look into it. I did one e-Discovery project to earn a few bucks, which was okay.
BTW, Maximus, I never received an email from you. Just wanted to make sure you had mine.
Yes. definitely check it out -- I never unsubscribed after moving to my permanent gig, and they seem to send 10 emails a week or so looking to staff reviews. If you take one with decent OT you can make a ton and then take time off to travel, etc. in between them.
Most of the big staffing agencies require you to register for consideration for projects, so I would join the Posse List email blast for NYC and reach out to companies staffing with your resume, just to get in their loop. I ended up winding my way into an entire new career field (first to Corp Counsel, then DOE and now as parents' counsel) through my review jobs after I got laid off in the recession of 08. Really saw me through and allowed me to be more selective since I had a good income from.
I also had great luck, was staffed on one case at Cravath for 3.5 years, and the money was absurd. I'll shoot you an email so you can ask me any questions that come up in this area. Good luck. I echo the sentiments of other BBI'ers -- you've done great in your evolution over the past years. You'll find your niche.
Great. I just signed up for the Project Counsel Group Subscription