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NFT: Legal Career Advice Needed

Anakim : 6/11/2018 11:12 pm
After seeing the other thread, I felt compelled to make my own:


I'm a New York admitted attorney. I graduated from a good law school a year ago and since January I have been clerking for a judge. It's been a great general experience, but the clerkship is nearly up, the money hasn't been great, and in any case, the position was only meant to be an interim position. I now have to begin my actual legal career in a specific legal field.


The job search has been extremely daunting, to say the least. Either the listed position is not in my field (I was an IP concentration and most of my law school experience has been in that field, but at this point I'll do anything in transactional law with the exception of tax. I really don't think I'm cut out for litigation, but I do understand that many lawyers get their start in litigation.), or they require years of experience (most of them require 2 + 3 years of experience, at the minimum).


I've been using different job platforms like my school's job website, Indeed, LinkedIn, Law Crossing, etc., but so far no dice. I was wondering if anyone had any advice or maybe even an in. I would be eternally grateful for any help you may provide.
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_________  
I am Ninja : 6/11/2018 11:31 pm : link
There are 10k answers to this question and none of them are wrong. In my opinion, right now, you just want files. Go somewhere where youll get destroyed with files of any kind. Learn how to do things. You want to be a transactional atty but dont want to litigate? Having the OPTION to litigate for your client who is getting dicked around is incredibly valuable. Learn lots. They wont babysit you, so youll learn as you go, but youll learn more in 12 mos than you did in sum to this point.
Binge watch Bb and better call Saul  
DennyInDenville : 6/12/2018 1:08 am : link
Maybe it'll inspire you to start a practice of your own

Start an LLC! My attorney did it and now he's a highly regarded "super lawyer" has been for years and still isn't even 40 yet..

LLC! LLC!

Anakim Defense Team LLC

You can do it bro. Best of luck either way
what kind of outreach have you done to headhunting/placement firms  
Nitro : 6/12/2018 1:13 am : link
they get paid when their candidates get jobs so it's quite the advocate to have, always works to have more than just yourself working on your behalf. I just googled 'legal placement nyc' and had dozens of firms show up.
A possible alternative to headhunters  
BestFeature : 6/12/2018 1:56 am : link
I don't know if there's something like this in law but I'm working now with a career consultant. I just started so I don't know how good he is but I like the process. You'd have to pay, but he/she will work for you, not for an employeer. Headhunters tend to disappear quickly. Then again, I don't know if there's this option for law since it's a very specific field.
RE: what kind of outreach have you done to headhunting/placement firms  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 8:36 am : link
In comment 13989100 Nitro said:
Quote:
they get paid when their candidates get jobs so it's quite the advocate to have, always works to have more than just yourself working on your behalf. I just googled 'legal placement nyc' and had dozens of firms show up.


Checked those out as well. The catch is they only place attorneys with experience. They don't place attorneys straight out of law school.
Take some risks  
JonC : 6/12/2018 8:48 am : link
you're at an age where you need to discover the world and taking risks will push you to your potential.

Don't underestimate yourself ...
RE: Take some risks  
Joeguido : 6/12/2018 9:00 am : link
In comment 13989137 JonC said:
Quote:
you're at an age where you need to discover the world and taking risks will push you to your potential.

Don't underestimate yourself ...


This is what I was going to basically say....being young get out of your comfort zone and maybe you'll find something you like....ie litigating and it would make you a better attorney in the end having that type of experience. Best of luck
Have you considered corporate law?  
pjcas18 : 6/12/2018 9:02 am : link
almost all of our legal counsel is specialized in IP.

as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.

You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.

It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.
RE: RE: Take some risks  
JonC : 6/12/2018 9:06 am : link
In comment 13989148 Joeguido said:
Quote:
In comment 13989137 JonC said:


Quote:


you're at an age where you need to discover the world and taking risks will push you to your potential.

Don't underestimate yourself ...



This is what I was going to basically say....being young get out of your comfort zone and maybe you'll find something you like....ie litigating and it would make you a better attorney in the end having that type of experience. Best of luck


Agreed, get out of your comfort zones constantly, otherwise it's too easy to get sidetracked and left behind.
RE: Take some risks  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 10:19 am : link
In comment 13989137 JonC said:
Quote:
you're at an age where you need to discover the world and taking risks will push you to your potential.

Don't underestimate yourself ...


What kinds of risks are you referring to?
Be open minded, get out of your comfort zones  
JonC : 6/12/2018 10:24 am : link
converse with people whose work and ethic you admire, network through resources like LinkedIn and recruiting events, try to not limit or pigeonhole yourself ever, especially now.

It's a mindset ... the search doesn't have to be daunting, it can be a blank canvas for you to visualize where you want life to go.
How would you feel  
JonC : 6/12/2018 10:27 am : link
if you were posting on BBI at age 30, 35, 40 and the sentiment was full of regret. I have a dear friend who has wasted 20+ years spinning his wheels as an attorney because he wouldn't take risks, he kept it small and hid in his comfort zones and went nowhere and now he's nearly 50.

Take risks, trust us.
Be bold(er)  
JonC : 6/12/2018 10:28 am : link
is probably a better way to express it.
RE: Have you considered corporate law?  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 10:30 am : link
In comment 13989150 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
almost all of our legal counsel is specialized in IP.

as a technology company it's critical and then with GDPR and other regulations they have had to learn data privacy and security.

You know this better than me (if it's true) but it seems like there are a glut of lawyers, but any time I need a contract reviewed it's the hardest thing to get done in my company of 300,000+ people. So maybe not many willing to move into corporate law.

It seems like they'd be dying for people like you with an interest in that.



Absolutely. I'm absolutely interested in corporate/compliance. The thing is I don't really know what it entails on a daily basis. I never took a class on compliance (but I have taken one on corporations and did quite well. I actually somewhat enjoyed it, with the exception of the accounting aspect. Haha).

In hindsight, I wish I had taken more classes in fields I never considered. Mediation, arbitration, real estate.... It's funny because in school you usually take classes you find interesting, where you like the professor, where you think you'll get a good grade...but school is really meant for exploring and truly finding yourself. I always knew from my passion about sports and entertainment (future Giants GM!) that I wanted to go into that field and so I concentrated in (soft) IP, but I discredited how popular that particular field was and how much competition there would be. I just knew that I would fight tooth and nail to be at the top of the field and thought that would be sufficient, but it's all about getting your foot in the door first. They're not waiting for me. Tough realization.
RE: How would you feel  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13989235 JonC said:
Quote:
if you were posting on BBI at age 30, 35, 40 and the sentiment was full of regret. I have a dear friend who has wasted 20+ years spinning his wheels as an attorney because he wouldn't take risks, he kept it small and hid in his comfort zones and went nowhere and now he's nearly 50.

Take risks, trust us.


Well, I always wanted to work for the Giants.... Haha, but seriously, I actually did send a letter to 1925 Giants Drive. Never heard back from them.
That's great, and the Giants aren't the only entity to work for  
JonC : 6/12/2018 11:01 am : link
apply it to every lead and discipline you feel an interest for, go after it.
RE: That's great, and the Giants aren't the only entity to work for  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 13989290 JonC said:
Quote:
apply it to every lead and discipline you feel an interest for, go after it.


For sure. I have. I've networked with quite a few people in industries other than law, but no bites so far.
endorsing what JonC says,  
ColHowPepper : 6/12/2018 11:19 am : link
another way of putting it is having the guts and self-confidence to take a road less traveled is rewarding in and of itself. You mention that the clerkship $$ is not that great: how can you put a value on what you have learned, process, substantive law, the way party plaintiffs and defendants approach the advocacy of their positions. It's easy to take the most important things you are learning for granted, and you won't even know how valuable these are until you're thrown into a scenario of practice, sink or swim, and when you begin to work your way through the problems, you realize, "Hey, I can to this, I can be creative, I can lawyer."

Don't make the $ the determining factor: there are plenty of lawyers who make good money who hate or disdain what they do. The ones who are challenged in their work, don't feel like they're on a treadmill for "the man", and have to problem solve in their relationships with clients, those are the ones to emulate, if at all possible.
CHP  
JonC : 6/12/2018 11:25 am : link
well said.
Unlike most people, and even most young lawyers,  
Marty in Albany : 6/12/2018 11:28 am : link
you don't have to take a job because that is the only job offered to you. Your credentials- Law Review & clerkship- show that.

You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.

Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.

BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.
RE: endorsing what JonC says,  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13989307 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
another way of putting it is having the guts and self-confidence to take a road less traveled is rewarding in and of itself. You mention that the clerkship $$ is not that great: how can you put a value on what you have learned, process, substantive law, the way party plaintiffs and defendants approach the advocacy of their positions. It's easy to take the most important things you are learning for granted, and you won't even know how valuable these are until you're thrown into a scenario of practice, sink or swim, and when you begin to work your way through the problems, you realize, "Hey, I can to this, I can be creative, I can lawyer."

Don't make the $ the determining factor: there are plenty of lawyers who make good money who hate or disdain what they do. The ones who are challenged in their work, don't feel like they're on a treadmill for "the man", and have to problem solve in their relationships with clients, those are the ones to emulate, if at all possible.


That's fair. Like I said, the clerkship has been a fantastic experience. It was one thing to learn the abstract in the classroom, but to see how it's all done was an entirely different parallax. I can't say I haven't been jealous when I hear that my friends are making 100K+ straight out of law school and I'm earning peanuts but I do think the clerkship has been invaluable.

But it's ending soon. Someone is going to take my place in a couple of weeks. Simply put, it's not a long-term solution.
RE: Unlike most people, and even most young lawyers,  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13989315 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
you don't have to take a job because that is the only job offered to you. Your credentials- Law Review & clerkship- show that.

You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.

Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.

BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.


Money isn't the main issue (though it's obviously a huge factor). It's more about doing something that I love; that I can immerse myself in. That's the ultimate goal. In fact, law school was always a stepping stone of getting into the sports and entertainment industry in some capacity. It's always been my dream to work for the Giants (or any professional team but particularly the Giants). It was a way of setting myself apart from everyone else.

But with regard to litigation, I believe I'm not cut out for it, but at the same time I realize that many entry-level attorneys get their start in litigation. And just as important as the position itself is finding the right mentor. Having someone take me under his or her wing and show me the ropes. That's what I need more than anything. I'll sacrifice money in the short-term if it meant getting the right mentor.
Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 2:02 pm : link
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.
Good Luck  
jeffro1 : 6/12/2018 2:07 pm : link
In New Jersey, a lot of judicial clerks have their judge call in a favor to the firm the judge came from or has friends at.
Might be worth trying that avenue, and don't be afraid to ask for favors in general. People like to help other people.

I have been practicing 13 years now and one thing you should know is law school taught you next to nothing for your legal career.
RE: Unlike most people, and even most young lawyers,  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13989315 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
you don't have to take a job because that is the only job offered to you. Your credentials- Law Review & clerkship- show that.

You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.

Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.

BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.


With all due respect, this is terrible advice. The fact that the kid is out of school, coming to the end of his clerkship and STILL doesn't have a place to land yet screams that he does need to reduce his selectivity and focus on securing SOMETHING in or related to his preferred field.

I get tons of resumes from kids from well-ranked schools with clerkship, law journal and moot court experience who are a year or even two out of school still looking for their first associate position. It's a nightmare for them, because the reality is there are just way too many kids coming out of law school for the market to absorb. Lots of them end up going back to school for an LLM to give themselves a do-over on entering the job market.

So, my advice is to be relentless and get your foot in the door SOMEWHERE ASAP, before your degree and experience start to atrophy.
Also, litigation is one of those things  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 2:14 pm : link
if you aren't someone who thrives on conflict and competition, it will wear you down like a pencil in a sharpener. I have lots of friends who got chewed up and spit out by litigation work, and quit practicing law less than ten years after getting their JD. If you don't think you are cut out for it, you should probably listen to your gut.
legal career  
Giantslifer : 6/12/2018 2:21 pm : link
can't be that hard.
Either find a law firm suing trump & friends or find one defending trump & friends
RE: Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:
Quote:
CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.


As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.

I check my school's job postings every day.


And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.

Cardozo
If you are open to it,  
NJGiantFan84 : 6/12/2018 2:33 pm : link
Federal Government agencies are always looking for attorneys. I'm not sure what the need is for attorneys right out of school, but I bet there are agencies searching for newer attorneys. Check out USAjobs.gov. And Im not saying in law enforcement. But agencies within the Treasury Department, CFPB, IRS etc. all have legal departments.

Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?

Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!

Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.
RE: Good Luck  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 2:33 pm : link
In comment 13989480 jeffro1 said:
Quote:
In New Jersey, a lot of judicial clerks have their judge call in a favor to the firm the judge came from or has friends at.
Might be worth trying that avenue, and don't be afraid to ask for favors in general. People like to help other people.



Did that as well. The judge provided me with a list of attorneys and firms who argued in front of him in housing court. I emailed most of them. Nothing came of it. He obviously couldn't call in any favors because I think that would be considered bribery.
RE: RE: Unlike most people, and even most young lawyers,  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13989483 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13989315 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


you don't have to take a job because that is the only job offered to you. Your credentials- Law Review & clerkship- show that.

You have a lot of choices. Your lack of actual experience makes your decision more difficult for you than for other young lawyers whose choices are more limited.

Given a choice of: job with the most prestige; job with the best pay; job with the best chances for advancement; and job that you really like, I know where I would want to spend my career.

BTW, I think that you have the makings a fine litigator. Litigation does take talent in addition to legal savvy, but it is much, much easier if you have an experienced litigator to train under who is willing to guide you. It's like most sports. You can't do it well just by reading about it, you need some coaching and practice.



With all due respect, this is terrible advice. The fact that the kid is out of school, coming to the end of his clerkship and STILL doesn't have a place to land yet screams that he does need to reduce his selectivity and focus on securing SOMETHING in or related to his preferred field.

I get tons of resumes from kids from well-ranked schools with clerkship, law journal and moot court experience who are a year or even two out of school still looking for their first associate position. It's a nightmare for them, because the reality is there are just way too many kids coming out of law school for the market to absorb. Lots of them end up going back to school for an LLM to give themselves a do-over on entering the job market.

So, my advice is to be relentless and get your foot in the door SOMEWHERE ASAP, before your degree and experience start to atrophy.


That's what I've been trying to do. I've exhausted all my options.
Lastly,  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 2:41 pm : link
unless you are looking at going into public interest law of some sort -- helping the poor, or fighting for some sort of social cause -- a legal career is going to get to be a grind after a while. It won't be fun. After a while, it won't even be particularly interesting.

Once you are at that point, there is only one reason to keep doing it: the money.

So my advice is, if you want fulfillment, go ahead and travel, start a family, focus on your friends, or perhaps volunteer time for a good cause. But your work? Your work is really about money, and that should be your priority when it comes to your career. Do well enough, and you can retire while you still have some vitality left.
Maybe you need to find a reason  
pjcas18 : 6/12/2018 2:44 pm : link
to walk into a judge's poker game and help the judge you're clerking for read the table and win the hand.

all the other judges will be in awe and want to hire you (at least for poker games).

and then if you get in a bind for cash because of your friend worm, you can borrow 10 grand from one of your friend judges.
RE: RE: Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13989513 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:


Quote:


CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.



As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.

I check my school's job postings every day.


And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.

Cardozo


A few more things, then.

First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.

Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.

Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.

Hope that helps.
Just curious. Are you eligible to practice criminal defense?  
DennyInDenville : 6/12/2018 3:01 pm : link
Because if so, I know a firm that I'm sure would start you out and get your feet wet doing First appearances and the like.. while giving you the freedom to obtain your own clients and cases and use the firms resources..

Idk though man

I'm gonna say it again.. I REALLY think you should start an LLC and build your own practice from the ground up.

Office space is CHEAP these days .. just saying
RE: If you are open to it,  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13989516 NJGiantFan84 said:
Quote:
Federal Government agencies are always looking for attorneys. I'm not sure what the need is for attorneys right out of school, but I bet there are agencies searching for newer attorneys. Check out USAjobs.gov. And Im not saying in law enforcement. But agencies within the Treasury Department, CFPB, IRS etc. all have legal departments.

Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?

Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!

Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.


Yep. I've checked government jobs. I actually applied to the NYC Law Department yesterday. I've also seen postings for federal government, from FBI agents to bureau jobs. Problem is that most of them are in DC and I'm only admitted to practice here in New York.
RE: RE: RE: Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13989540 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13989513 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:


Quote:


CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.



As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.

I check my school's job postings every day.


And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.

Cardozo



A few more things, then.

First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.

Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.

Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.

Hope that helps.



Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.

I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.

I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.

Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha

RE: Just curious. Are you eligible to practice criminal defense?  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13989556 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Because if so, I know a firm that I'm sure would start you out and get your feet wet doing First appearances and the like.. while giving you the freedom to obtain your own clients and cases and use the firms resources..

Idk though man

I'm gonna say it again.. I REALLY think you should start an LLC and build your own practice from the ground up.

Office space is CHEAP these days .. just saying



I mean yes, I'm eligible. I'm an admitted to the NY Bar. But I know from personal experience that criminal defense is about as messy as it gets. Aside from not wanting to do litigation, I definitely don't want to do family law, criminal law, or mass torts/personal injury. Those fields are extremely messy and cases can last for ten years.
Okay Anak, was just wondering, thank you  
DennyInDenville : 6/12/2018 3:19 pm : link
Criminal defense is definitely messy and you are right, some people find it fun.

I hope you find what your lookIng for, I'm sure you will.

Hopefully BBI can give you a nice assist, if not, keep grinding it out , you'll be good.
RE: Okay Anak, was just wondering, thank you  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 3:25 pm : link
In comment 13989581 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
Criminal defense is definitely messy and you are right, some people find it fun.

I hope you find what your lookIng for, I'm sure you will.

Hopefully BBI can give you a nice assist, if not, keep grinding it out , you'll be good.


I appreciate it. Thank you.
RE: Maybe you need to find a reason  
figgy2989 : 6/12/2018 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13989532 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
to walk into a judge's poker game and help the judge you're clerking for read the table and win the hand.

all the other judges will be in awe and want to hire you (at least for poker games).

and then if you get in a bind for cash because of your friend worm, you can borrow 10 grand from one of your friend judges.


Excellent Rounders reference...well done pj
This thread strikes close to home because I was in your exact shoes  
bhill410 : 6/12/2018 4:45 pm : link
10 years ago. I am in a great spot now but took luck and hopping around to get there. My advice:

1 - target smaller offices and be willing to know it may be litigation. Unfortunately for you the ship has likely sailed in short term to get into a big IP firm. You can get there eventually but they have rigorous hiring procedures so they aren’t placing you now.

2 - Offering to work for free to show them your effort/skill is a great idea and one a lot of firms won’t pass up. Don’t just focus on places that are listing but actually mail resume to firms maybe 10-20 attorney large. If they do decide to hire they will have you already there.

3 - don’t worry about your first salary because at this point it won’t be great. Stay at firm for 2-3 years and try to switch to a place with more competitive comp then.

4 - have a long term plan once you get in place if you want to go in house and what skills will benefit you.

5 - look at consulting firms after you get your feet we

6 - look in other states that may not have same amount of attorneys but may have reciprocity with ny

Good luck, it sucks
RE: RE: If you are open to it,  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13989560 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13989516 NJGiantFan84 said:


Quote:


Federal Government agencies are always looking for attorneys. I'm not sure what the need is for attorneys right out of school, but I bet there are agencies searching for newer attorneys. Check out USAjobs.gov. And Im not saying in law enforcement. But agencies within the Treasury Department, CFPB, IRS etc. all have legal departments.

Have you spoken to the Judge you are clerking for? Does he have any connections or suggestions?

Good luck. Getting that first job is the toughest. Once you have the job, you should be able to get others!

Use connections. Friends, friends of friends, distant family. Anything to get you in front of the right people.



Yep. I've checked government jobs. I actually applied to the NYC Law Department yesterday. I've also seen postings for federal government, from FBI agents to bureau jobs. Problem is that most of them are in DC and I'm only admitted to practice here in New York.


If you are admitted in NY, you can waive into DC.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Don in DC : 6/12/2018 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13989567 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13989540 Don in DC said:


Quote:


In comment 13989513 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:


Quote:


CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.



As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.

I check my school's job postings every day.


And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.

Cardozo



A few more things, then.

First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.

Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.

Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.

Hope that helps.




Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.

I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.

I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.

Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha


Ideally, you should email a pdf and also mail a hard copy. Note in the email that you are also sending a hard copy. That way you make it as easy as possible for the target to forward it to the right people. Emphasize that you are hungry, capable, and willing to prove yourself.

Honestly, if you hadn't said that litigation isn't for you, I would ask you to send me your resume so I could forward it to the folks in my NY office. But with you having said that, I think I would be doing you and my firm a disservice to recommend you.
RE: This thread strikes close to home because I was in your exact shoes  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13989679 bhill410 said:
Quote:
10 years ago. I am in a great spot now but took luck and hopping around to get there. My advice:

1 - target smaller offices and be willing to know it may be litigation. Unfortunately for you the ship has likely sailed in short term to get into a big IP firm. You can get there eventually but they have rigorous hiring procedures so they aren’t placing you now.

2 - Offering to work for free to show them your effort/skill is a great idea and one a lot of firms won’t pass up. Don’t just focus on places that are listing but actually mail resume to firms maybe 10-20 attorney large. If they do decide to hire they will have you already there.

3 - don’t worry about your first salary because at this point it won’t be great. Stay at firm for 2-3 years and try to switch to a place with more competitive comp then.

4 - have a long term plan once you get in place if you want to go in house and what skills will benefit you.

5 - look at consulting firms after you get your feet we

6 - look in other states that may not have same amount of attorneys but may have reciprocity with ny

Good luck, it sucks



Thanks for the advice. As you said, going forward should be a much easier ride. For now, it's all about getting that first job and that necessary training. I just need to get my feet wet and have someone take me under his/her wing.


I just want to get my foot in the door so I can break the door down. I'm willing to take risks, but even that has proven to be fruitless so far. I'm just looking for someone to take a calculated gamble on me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Contact headhunters, comb through your school's  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 6:00 pm : link
In comment 13989688 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13989567 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 13989540 Don in DC said:


Quote:


In comment 13989513 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 13989475 Don in DC said:


Quote:


CDO job listings and submit resumes to any and all that are even remotely suitable, and start carpet bombing firms in your preferred practice area(s) with resumes and cover letters.

Just get that first gig, no matter what you have to do or swallow to get it. After that, it gets a lot easier.

Also, what law school? Just curious.



As mentioned, I did contact headhunters, but they only take on lawyers with experience. They don't do entry-level.

I check my school's job postings every day.


And yep, I must've sent out 200 emails with my resume and cover letters. 8 out of 10 times I'll get no response. Other times I'll get a response saying they have no openings but they'll keep my resume on file and I should keep checking back.

Cardozo



A few more things, then.

First, try mailing -- NOT emailing -- your resume and cover letter (printed on quality bond papers) to specific lawyers at specific firms that operate in the areas in which you are interested. Emails are just too easy to ignore. Don't bother with big firms with strictly regimented hiring procedures. Focus on boutique shops that usually hire on an as-needed basis.

Second, consider offering to come in and work for free (essentially on an internship basis) for a period of time to allow yourself to familiarize yourself with the firm, and them with you. A few youngsters have gotten their foot in the door with my NY office that way and ended up getting associate positions.

Third, try reaching out specifically to Cardozo alumni at the firms you are targeting. Similarly, consider targeting alumni from your undergrad as well (wherever that is). My most recent associate hire went to the same undergrad and law school as me, and unquestionably got the job for that reason. As a bonus, it turns out he's the hungriest, hardest working associate I have ever hired.

Hope that helps.




Interesting. I figured mailing rather than emailing would be more effective, but obviously more costly and more time-consuming.

I do reach out to specific lawyers, whether they're alums of Cardozo or they're in the field I'm interested. More times than not they don't bother to respond, but occasionally they'll forward or walk (so they say) my resume to HR and I'll get a reply back saying there are no openings at this time.

I don't mind shadowing either (especially in big law), but I do want it to be a means to an end. If I'm going to devote myself to something wholeheartedly, I'd like to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I've had plenty of internships and while they can be good learning experiences, I did many tasks and spent many hours in the office and I should've been compensated.

Again, money isn't the main factor, but it is a huge factor. I need to support myself. I need to earn a living. I need to pay off my student loans. Haha




Ideally, you should email a pdf and also mail a hard copy. Note in the email that you are also sending a hard copy. That way you make it as easy as possible for the target to forward it to the right people. Emphasize that you are hungry, capable, and willing to prove yourself.

Honestly, if you hadn't said that litigation isn't for you, I would ask you to send me your resume so I could forward it to the folks in my NY office. But with you having said that, I think I would be doing you and my firm a disservice to recommend you.


Oddly enough, no one has ever recommended sending a hard copy. I mean obviously that was the modus operandi before the internet, but it would seem to me that in this day and age, sending a resume in both an email and via snail mail would be redundant. However, if you think it really makes a good impression with them, I'll do it.


I appreciate it. If you know anyone who is hiring, I would be more than happy to send you my resume (IP or general).
Lots of good advise here...  
Metnut : 6/12/2018 6:08 pm : link
I was in a similar spot when I started about about 8 years ago. A couple random thoughts:

(1) Give ( http://www.legalauthority.com/targeted-mailing.php ) a chance. It's worth $500-$1000 and they'll print out hundreds of resumes, cover letters, envelopes to firms that you're targetting and you'll be able to spam hundreds of firms. You're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a few interviews out of it.

(2) Reach out to your alumni network. Search the internet for alumni, reach out to them and set up time to talk about the job market to see if they have ideas or just to learn more about what they do. You're not asking them for a job, you're building a network.

(3) Ultimately, I ended doing what you said you didn't want to do in the OP. I went into tax. A lot of lawyers are afraid to do math, and there's a demand for lawyers to do this type of work. In-house tax departments often have large amounts of tax and benefits lawyers, so expressing interest here could be a path to a solid career. NYU's tax LLM is a good way in the door. It's not as hard as you'd think to get in, but you'll need to think long and hard before taking on additional major student loan debt.
RE: Lots of good advise here...  
Anakim : 6/12/2018 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13989724 Metnut said:
Quote:
I was in a similar spot when I started about about 8 years ago. A couple random thoughts:

(1) Give ( http://www.legalauthority.com/targeted-mailing.php ) a chance. It's worth $500-$1000 and they'll print out hundreds of resumes, cover letters, envelopes to firms that you're targetting and you'll be able to spam hundreds of firms. You're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a few interviews out of it.

(2) Reach out to your alumni network. Search the internet for alumni, reach out to them and set up time to talk about the job market to see if they have ideas or just to learn more about what they do. You're not asking them for a job, you're building a network.

(3) Ultimately, I ended doing what you said you didn't want to do in the OP. I went into tax. A lot of lawyers are afraid to do math, and there's a demand for lawyers to do this type of work. In-house tax departments often have large amounts of tax and benefits lawyers, so expressing interest here could be a path to a solid career. NYU's tax LLM is a good way in the door. It's not as hard as you'd think to get in, but you'll need to think long and hard before taking on additional major student loan debt.


1) Never heard of that, but I'll look into it. It's totally legit? Not a scam?

2) Done that. I know that's the best way and I've met a few alumni (either by phone or I visited their offices), but yeah, it never went anywhere. They either don't respond, they forward or walk my resume over to HR, or simply don't feel comfortable talking to the hiring partners on my behalf since they don't really know me.

3) Oh definitely. Tax lawyers are considered the creme de la creme of the legal profession. But I guess this goes to what the others have said: doing something you're passionate about. I can't say that I know a whole lot about tax law as I've never taken a class in it, but I've heard horror stories about how it's terribly boring memorizing the IRC and while the money is great, it's not exactly a rewarding field.
I can't say that I know exactly what field I want to go into (ideally IP, but I'm keeping my mind open), but I do know what fields I don't want to go into: Tax, T&E, Personal Injury, Mass Torts, Crim.
I graduated and took a paralegal job in NYC  
Nitro : 6/12/2018 6:26 pm : link
then the recession hit and I was let go. A circuitous path led me out west to jobs in technology in California. You never know what'll work out.

JonC is right, you need to broaden your horizons and take chances. I imagine you've still pigeonholed yourself quite a bit by not considering a large number of alternatives.
What area of IP were you interested in?  
jcp56 : 6/12/2018 7:23 pm : link
It sounds like sports-related. I'm in patents, but that requires an engineering or science undergraduate degree (though some litigators have no technical background).

Did you ask the judge for leads?

Broadcast your interest to family and friends. Usually a personal connection helps a lot. Unless you have a family to support, be willing to work for nothing or almost nothing for 6 months to a year in your area of interest to get some experience.


As someone else mentioned, look to government agencies if the work will be relevant to your long term goals. (I worked at the patent office for a year and was in high demand after that while still a night student at law school.)
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