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Who really benched Eli Manning? (the truth)

sxdxca : 6/13/2018 1:47 am
This has been a hot topic of debate on this board, and amongst Giant fans for some time.

So I decided to research the topic, by getting to the bottom of this, and going back to the original manuscripts from November of 2017 when this all went down.

Here are some direct quotes from John Mara himself,

and I quote...

"The point was we did not want him on the bench. We wanted him to start the game and play some portion of the game and at some point work the other guys in. Again, it was his decision, which I completely respect, to go with."

"He’s got to play a meaningful part of the game, whether that was half or three quarters or whatever."

"But what I did not expect, and this is my fault, I was probably naïve, I did not expect Eli to react by saying, ‘Go ahead and start the other guys.’ And again, especially after speaking to him today, I completely understand that. But that took me by surprise a little bit and, yeah, maybe I would have handled that a little bit different."

"We’re 2-9. We’re 2-9, okay? I’m embarrassed about that. Nobody’s doing a good job."

"I did, I did have some pause, but then having talked with Jerry about it and accepted the fact that Eli had slept on it overnight and had time to think about it. He and I texted each other, I wanted to talk to him over the phone, but he preferred to do it face to face because I couldn’t get here until today. So yeah, it did give me some pause, but once I realized that he had slept on it overnight and that was his decision, we went ahead with it."

So what did we learn?

While it is true that the Giants benched Eli Manning for the 3rd and 4th quarter, they did not bench him for the 1st and 2nd quarter.

Mara, Reese and management, wanted him starting, they did not want him on the bench, they wanted him keeping his streak alive, and playing a meaningful part of the game.

As Mara said, it was Eli's decision, and he made this decision after sleeping on it all night, this was not a rash decision.

Therefore it was Eli, and Eli Manning alone who willfully benched himself for the 1st half.

It was Eli Manning, who by his own free will and choice ended his own streak.

I believe he let or allowed his emotions to blind him, to the point where his feelings consumed him so intensely that he ended his own streak.

Eli was being paid 21 million dollars, all he had to do was play the first half, let the other guys come in, and none of that media firestorm would have happened.

Mcadoo and Reese would have been let go anyway at the end of the year, and Eli would have kept his steak alive.

But somehow the media, and some of the fanbase has spun this that the Giants are the ones who ended Eli Manning's streak, and that is not the truth.

So down the road, if and when this topic comes up, it was Eli Manning, and Eli alone, who willfully ended his own streak, and benched himself for the first half.

Hope this helps...









No  
TommyWiseau : 6/13/2018 1:55 am : link
It wasn't. Guy was put in a shit position of keeping his streak alive by playing parts of games? Eli's honor would not allow that tk happen. Ownership, Front office and the coaching staff screwed it all up
Eli was benched  
Keyser : 6/13/2018 2:52 am : link
Anyone who has actually watched Eli knows that he hates to come out of games, even when they are getting killed and the game is meaningless. Anyone with half a brain knew he wasn't going to just play the first half of games and then just watch the rest of the game on the sideline just for the sake of a streak.

As for the fan outburst, it wasn't because they benched Eli as much as the fact that they benched him for GENO SMITH. If the plan was to work Davis Webb into games, there would not have been a backlash (I'm sure a few people would still be upset). If the plan was to have Geno Smith start the first few games but Davis Webb play at the end of these games, with Davis Webb getting more and more playing time until he eventually would play the whole game at the end, then fans would have understood. However, the fact that they didn't activate Davis Webb against the Raiders revealed that McAdoo really wanted to start Geno Smith all along. That's why everyone got upset.

I don't know how clued in Mara was to this plan, but he should have immediately been asking Reese why Davis Webb wasn't activated and put a stop to their stupid plan once it was clear that Webb was never going to be activated.
One of the worst things the Giants have ever done  
BladeCleaver : 6/13/2018 6:16 am : link
Yes, technically Eli benched himself. But the options he was given were unacceptable. If they had said to Eli that we want to see Webb or even Geno in the second half of what was becoming a blowout loss, then he would have had to agree. Even if they told him that the wanted to work Webb in for a couple of series a game, he would have been ok with it.

His issue was that he was getting pulled even in a winning effort. He refused to accept those terms.

Most blame McAdope. He definitely was the instigator. He threw Eli under the bus every chance he could because Eli wasn't mobile enough to run his crappy offense. He wanted a chance to prove it was the player not the system. While one game is not enough evaluation, Geno shit the bed and the fans who were already outraged demanded an explanation. McAdope and Reese were sent to the pit of misery. Dilly Dilly.

What got overlooked is the owners signed off on this. They quickly spun this as "our intentions were mis interpreted." And "we didn't expect Eli to react this way"

I call bullshit. Management (mainly Mara) was weighing the outcomes of everything. With Eli's streak ended, it makes him easier to trade, cut, etc. for the fans. also, had Geno come in an lit it up, they could have kept Eli on the bench and parted ways at the end of the season. Well the outcry against the way they did this was too overwhelming and in most ways it backfired. They did clear the streak hurdle, which still makes it easier to part ways even two years from now.

Bottom line is ownership was to blame for this. They signed off. They could have undone this.
Old news  
TommytheElephant : 6/13/2018 6:16 am : link
Eli was given the opportunity to start but didn’t see the point in starting if it was predetermined that he was 100% going to come out, even if the offense was producing. Thus, he felt it was unfair to just “start” for a streak, and tarnished the streak.

I put this square in the shoulders of the slicked back head coach.

And I am also 100% on board that him, Reese, and Ross were let go ( regardless of the Eli Manning fiasco)

Reese at least deserves respect, it was time to go. The coach who shall remain nameless - glad his “key cahd” doesn’t work anymore
"the truth" - LOL  
ZogZerg : 6/13/2018 6:22 am : link
You have no fucking clue what the "truth" is with this.

We have 3 days a football to discuss (with mini camp) and you decide to post this shit? You have 6 weeks of dead time for these crappy threads.
RE: No  
Sec 103 : 6/13/2018 6:51 am : link
In comment 13989939 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
It wasn't. Guy was put in a shit position of keeping his streak alive by playing parts of games? Eli's honor would not allow that tk happen. Ownership, Front office and the coaching staff screwed it all up

+1
RE: RE: No  
Eman11 : 6/13/2018 6:58 am : link
In comment 13989954 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
In comment 13989939 TommyWiseau said:


Quote:


It wasn't. Guy was put in a shit position of keeping his streak alive by playing parts of games? Eli's honor would not allow that tk happen. Ownership, Front office and the coaching staff screwed it all up


+1


Agreed.

Another point that gets forgotten is Eli knows how hard it is to play the position and had his backups backs. He said if they're going to play, they need reps with the first team in practice and it wouldn't be fair to them to just throw them in unprepared. Make them the starter and give them all the reps they need.
I'm afraid ZogZerg is right.  
Big Blue Blogger : 6/13/2018 7:06 am : link
ZogZerg said:
Quote:
You have no f*cking clue what the "truth" is with this.
Revisiting seven-month-old quotes does not constitute research, nor does it shed any new light.
Or  
Matt in SGS : 6/13/2018 7:16 am : link
Eli saw it for what it was, an empty gesture from a head coach who, when the chips were down in a season when the only guy left on offense was pretty much Eli, decided to shit on him and essentially blamed him for everything that went wrong with the offense.

So rather than stop the streak, they offered him a choice which put Eli in a position to decide to keep it going and make it look like he was more interested in the streak and would have made him look petty. It was an embarrassing situation for everyone and Eli was right in saying forget it. If it was known that Eli willingly went along with the plan to keep his streak going, he would have looked like a jerk in a lost season.

The problem, as we said, was McAdoo was seriously convinced Geno was the right man for the job instead of putting Webb out there to see what he could do. McAdoo was more interested in trying to prove the problems were on Eli not him. Mara should have fired him after the Rams game and never got to this point.
RE: I'm afraid ZogZerg is right.  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 7:16 am : link
In comment 13989959 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
ZogZerg said:

Quote:


You have no f*cking clue what the "truth" is with this.

Revisiting seven-month-old quotes does not constitute research, nor does it shed any new light.
+6.02e23

A twisty one, you are.
Benching Eli was the correct  
joeinpa : 6/13/2018 7:23 am : link
Thing to do. The team was going no where and the offense stunk.

So what if it was Geno. The coach was fighting for his job and believed Geno gave him a better chance to win, that s his right

Some make a very big deal of Eli s streak, and it is astonishing. However the last 6 years of that streak was also a lot of bad and losing football. The game is about winning as a team, not individual streaks.

I swear some of you care more about Eli than the team. It s the New York Giants, not New York Eli s.

I m certain I will be labeled an Eli hater, which couldn't be further from the truth.

But there have been other great Giants, including Phil Simms, who Have been benched, cut or traded, without any of the outcry of Eli s benching, or the team "waisting his prime" has elicited.

I don t care that Eli was benched.that seems to put me in the minority, and I wish the team would have held it s ground and eventually given Webb a chance.

I have always been and continue to be a fan and supporter of Eli, but I m a Giants fan first.
RE: Or  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 7:31 am : link
In comment 13989960 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
Eli saw it for what it was, an empty gesture from a head coach who, when the chips were down in a season when the only guy left on offense was pretty much Eli, decided to shit on him and essentially blamed him for everything that went wrong with the offense.

So rather than stop the streak, they offered him a choice which put Eli in a position to decide to keep it going and make it look like he was more interested in the streak and would have made him look petty. It was an embarrassing situation for everyone and Eli was right in saying forget it. If it was known that Eli willingly went along with the plan to keep his streak going, he would have looked like a jerk in a lost season.

The problem, as we said, was McAdoo was seriously convinced Geno was the right man for the job instead of putting Webb out there to see what he could do. McAdoo was more interested in trying to prove the problems were on Eli not him. Mara should have fired him after the Rams game and never got to this point.


Well said. McAdoo (and Reese) knew that Webb was not ready. They fucking knew it. How did they know it? Because they hadn't been getting him ready. Instead they wanted to prove that Eli was the problem, and not the piss poor offense and head coach (and GM).

They tried to lay all the blame at Eli's feet and it got them fired.
So, when you want to find out "the truth" you purposely  
robbieballs2003 : 6/13/2018 7:32 am : link
leave out one of the main people when doing your "research"? That makes perfect sense. How do you always try to put stuff together and come to either the wrong conclusion in your posts or just have incomplete data for your opinions? Your posts used to he good a long time ago but have gotten drastically worse with each new thread.
RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 7:34 am : link
In comment 13989963 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Thing to do. The team was going no where and the offense stunk.

So what if it was Geno. The coach was fighting for his job and believed Geno gave him a better chance to win, that s his right

Some make a very big deal of Eli s streak, and it is astonishing. However the last 6 years of that streak was also a lot of bad and losing football. The game is about winning as a team, not individual streaks.

I swear some of you care more about Eli than the team. It s the New York Giants, not New York Eli s.

I m certain I will be labeled an Eli hater, which couldn't be further from the truth.

But there have been other great Giants, including Phil Simms, who Have been benched, cut or traded, without any of the outcry of Eli s benching, or the team "waisting his prime" has elicited.

I don t care that Eli was benched.that seems to put me in the minority, and I wish the team would have held it s ground and eventually given Webb a chance.

I have always been and continue to be a fan and supporter of Eli, but I m a Giants fan first.


So benching Eli for a guy who had 0.0% chance of being on the team was the right move for the future???

But  
liteamorn : 6/13/2018 7:36 am : link
Geno Smith?

RE: Old news  
mrvax : 6/13/2018 7:44 am : link
In comment 13989947 TommytheElephant said:
Quote:
Eli was given the opportunity to start but didn’t see the point in starting if it was predetermined that he was 100% going to come out, even if the offense was producing. Thus, he felt it was unfair to just “start” for a streak, and tarnished the streak.

I put this square in the shoulders of the slicked back head coach.


I remember Eli saying he would not play partial games. Well too damn bad. So in a disaster season, had the Giants wanted to see what they had in Webb, Eli would refuse to allow that unless Webb had to play the entire game.

Then McAdoo wanting to save his ass, thought Geno was more likely to run his crappy offense than Webb.

Blame all around including Eli. (And I'm a big Eli fan.)
RE: Or  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 7:58 am : link
In comment 13989960 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
Eli saw it for what it was, an empty gesture from a head coach who, when the chips were down in a season when the only guy left on offense was pretty much Eli, decided to shit on him and essentially blamed him for everything that went wrong with the offense.

So rather than stop the streak, they offered him a choice which put Eli in a position to decide to keep it going and make it look like he was more interested in the streak and would have made him look petty. It was an embarrassing situation for everyone and Eli was right in saying forget it. If it was known that Eli willingly went along with the plan to keep his streak going, he would have looked like a jerk in a lost season.

The problem, as we said, was McAdoo was seriously convinced Geno was the right man for the job instead of putting Webb out there to see what he could do. McAdoo was more interested in trying to prove the problems were on Eli not him. Mara should have fired him after the Rams game and never got to this point.


It's up to the coach to develop and try out different QBs after the starter lapses. Geno was one of them, and that's the coach's prerogative. The tape and practice field beared out that Geno should start, and then Webb if things permit. That's how football decisions are professional made, not through this political lens that so many are pushing.

Mara is becoming like Jerry Jones. He was wrong to interfere with the QB evaluation--which he himself ordered--before the coach's evaluation of Geno and Webb completed.

Right now we still don't have an answer as to what was the problem with the offense. Some people say the line, but Vegas doesn't think so
Some of you have not quoted Eli at all.  
robbieballs2003 : 6/13/2018 8:00 am : link
He never said he wouldn't play half a game. He said going into a game with that mentality is not hiw he was taught to play football. He said even if they were winning that he could be pulled just because made no sense to him. He was always taught to give his best and go out there to win every game regardless of the situation. This mentality brought us two super bowls.

So, all he said was if you feel he doesn't give the team the best chamce to win then go with the guy that does. If McAdoo thought Geno gave them a better shot then treat Geno like the starting QB and let him prepare that way. Imo, a player shouldn't have to say that to a coach. McAdoo was in over his head.

Eli laid out hlw football should be played amd McAdoo amd Reese still decided that Geno was the better chance and benched Manning. McAdoo has no balls and threw this back on Eli. This wasn't a situation of a team blowing us out and another QB getting reps. This was a situation of we could be up by 10 points and then Geno was coming in just because.

Do we all forget that these are football players and in thjs sport you are trained to fight, compete, and never give up? I'd be extremely disappointed in any player that didn't have that instilled in them. They didn't expect Eli to say what he did? Why? I'd expect every player to be unhappy if this conversation happened. But, ultimately, it is every HC's decision for who starts and who doesn't. Any HC that deflects that blame is a fuckin pussy.
RE: RE: Or  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 8:02 am : link
In comment 13989966 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13989960 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


Eli saw it for what it was, an empty gesture from a head coach who, when the chips were down in a season when the only guy left on offense was pretty much Eli, decided to shit on him and essentially blamed him for everything that went wrong with the offense.

So rather than stop the streak, they offered him a choice which put Eli in a position to decide to keep it going and make it look like he was more interested in the streak and would have made him look petty. It was an embarrassing situation for everyone and Eli was right in saying forget it. If it was known that Eli willingly went along with the plan to keep his streak going, he would have looked like a jerk in a lost season.

The problem, as we said, was McAdoo was seriously convinced Geno was the right man for the job instead of putting Webb out there to see what he could do. McAdoo was more interested in trying to prove the problems were on Eli not him. Mara should have fired him after the Rams game and never got to this point.



Well said. McAdoo (and Reese) knew that Webb was not ready. They fucking knew it. How did they know it? Because they hadn't been getting him ready. Instead they wanted to prove that Eli was the problem, and not the piss poor offense and head coach (and GM).

They tried to lay all the blame at Eli's feet and it got them fired.


I don't buy this take.

And I don't think the decision to work in the other QBs was Mac's.

He was asked point blank if it was his decision and he responded twice with "we are on the same page with the decision". "We being Mara, Reese and himself.
Webb admitted he was not ready last season  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 8:02 am : link
This implies Webb thinks he wasn't good enough last season, and that his 3rd string position was justified. Geno was better than Webb in preseason. The best thing Webb ever did was get a FG against Pats 4th stringers. Presumably the same distance existed between the QBs in practice too, so McAdoo went with the best young QB.

That's exactly the right decision.

It doesn't matter how many "fans" want Webb. The winner starts
What a compelling...  
Chris in Philly : 6/13/2018 8:06 am : link
investigative report..
Let me say this.  
robbieballs2003 : 6/13/2018 8:06 am : link
Any great leader deflects all the praise and accepts all the blame.
RE: What a compelling...  
Big Blue '56 : 6/13/2018 8:06 am : link
In comment 13989986 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
investigative report..


Hi Chris
RE: So, when you want to find out  
Diver_Down : 6/13/2018 8:12 am : link
In comment 13989967 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
leave out one of the main people when doing your "research"? That makes perfect sense. How do you always try to put stuff together and come to either the wrong conclusion in your posts or just have incomplete data for your opinions? Your posts used to he good a long time ago but have gotten drastically worse with each new thread.


This. He arrives at his conclusion beforehand and then "researches" and cherry-picks stats/quotes to frame his conclusion in an effort posed to the rest of us as unbiased reporting. Early this spring, he framed the "Decline of Eli" argument. But coincidentally left out year's stats in between as they didn't support his conclusion.

Many who support the OP are those that have confirmation bias to support their similar conclusion. Those who disagree attempt to debate the fallacies in the hypothesis without changing anyone's position/conclusion. Reading through the OP's threads is an interesting social experiment that the participants don't realize that they are the rats in the experiment.
The fact that the plan was to pull Eli at some point in the game  
Scuzzlebutt : 6/13/2018 8:22 am : link
regardless of the score is what made the plan so ridiculous. Not only is it unfair to Eli if he gets pulled in the 4th qtr of a one score game, but can you imagine the media circus that would have caused? Getting pulled in game when the game is in reach would have resulted in an even bigger media circus and it would have been more embarrassing to Eli.

Not to mention the fact that the player coming in would not have had all of the practice reps with the first team.
RE: But  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 8:23 am : link
In comment 13989970 liteamorn said:
Quote:
Geno Smith?


Geno Smith received a 80+ PFF grade, so Geno's so-called "terrible" game was graded as Eli's best 2017 game. This means Geno's "worst" is Eli's "best". Following this logic, McAdoo was 100% right to start Geno.

Webb doesn't average a 80+ PFF rating in his first game. First round rookies rarely do, so Webb wouldn't, especially when Webb himself admitted "he was not ready".

Mara deciding to listen to ignorant know-it-all fans on roster decisions is the dumbest decision I've ever seen him make. Mara fired everyone to appease Eli and hatemongers.
RE: RE: But  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:26 am : link
In comment 13989998 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13989970 liteamorn said:


Quote:


Geno Smith?




Geno Smith received a 80+ PFF grade, so Geno's so-called "terrible" game was graded as Eli's best 2017 game. This means Geno's "worst" is Eli's "best". Following this logic, McAdoo was 100% right to start Geno.

Webb doesn't average a 80+ PFF rating in his first game. First round rookies rarely do, so Webb wouldn't, especially when Webb himself admitted "he was not ready".

Mara deciding to listen to ignorant know-it-all fans on roster decisions is the dumbest decision I've ever seen him make. Mara fired everyone to appease Eli and hatemongers.


lol, 1 TD, 2 turnovers and 200 yards was better than any other game ELi played last year? Great use of logic.

By the way, the Raiders were one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL last year.
This could  
eric2425ny : 6/13/2018 8:26 am : link
be a graduate school thesis. Just make sure to properly cite your sources and provide a full bibliography next time.

At the end of the day the whole thing was handled terribly. They should have just played Eli and started putting Webb in when games were out of reach down the stretch. No discussions with Eli, press conferences, talk about streaks, etc. The team was awful last year, I’m sure Webb would have played at least three or four total quarters on the season in non competitive games.

The Geno thing was the oddest thing I have ever seen, because to me Mcadoo knew he was getting fired, but that shitty decision may affect his chances of ever being a head coach again. Career suicide.
RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 8:27 am : link
In comment 13989968 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13989963 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Thing to do. The team was going no where and the offense stunk.

So what if it was Geno. The coach was fighting for his job and believed Geno gave him a better chance to win, that s his right

Some make a very big deal of Eli s streak, and it is astonishing. However the last 6 years of that streak was also a lot of bad and losing football. The game is about winning as a team, not individual streaks.

I swear some of you care more about Eli than the team. It s the New York Giants, not New York Eli s.

I m certain I will be labeled an Eli hater, which couldn't be further from the truth.

But there have been other great Giants, including Phil Simms, who Have been benched, cut or traded, without any of the outcry of Eli s benching, or the team "waisting his prime" has elicited.

I don t care that Eli was benched.that seems to put me in the minority, and I wish the team would have held it s ground and eventually given Webb a chance.

I have always been and continue to be a fan and supporter of Eli, but I m a Giants fan first.



So benching Eli for a guy who had 0.0% chance of being on the team was the right move for the future???
\

If Geno plays well, he is on the team in the future. I don't see the logic where Geno isn't on the squad if he's playing well. He was like 26.
I have to..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 8:30 am : link
honestly ask a serious question:

Quote:
What the fuck is your obsession on this topic?[/b]

Every month, we get some variation of this thread from you, essentially laying blame with Eli alone. The semantics of whether he was benched or benched himself. The assertion that the whole situation lays at Eli's doing.

You actually said:
[quote]So down the road, if and when this topic comes up, it was Eli Manning, and Eli alone, who willfully ended his own streak, and benched himself for the first half.

Hope this helps...


Fuck man - this is just annoying, ponderous shit. "The truth"?? HA HA HA!

We are about to head into a new season. Geno Smith is gone. Mac is gone. Reese is gone. The starting QB for the New York Giants is Eli Manning. Fucking deal with it.
RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:31 am : link
In comment 13990001 elgoman said:
Quote:
\

If Geno plays well, he is on the team in the future. I don't see the logic where Geno isn't on the squad if he's playing well. He was like 26.


Geno isnt on the team because he sucks. And he will be lucky to make the Chargers. Not ONE team in the NFL wanted him as a starter last year or this year. This is fact and got not be disputed.

Just because he got a start he didnt deserve by 2 incompetent people out of football, does not make him the future of anything.
I have to...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 8:31 am : link
honestly ask a serious question:


What the fuck is your obsession on this topic?

Every month, we get some variation of this thread from you, essentially laying blame with Eli alone. The semantics of whether he was benched or benched himself. The assertion that the whole situation lays at Eli's doing.

You actually said:
Quote:
So down the road, if and when this topic comes up, it was Eli Manning, and Eli alone, who willfully ended his own streak, and benched himself for the first half.

Hope this helps...



Fuck man - this is just annoying, ponderous shit. "The truth"?? HA HA HA!

We are about to head into a new season. Geno Smith is gone. Mac is gone. Reese is gone. The starting QB for the New York Giants is Eli Manning. Fucking deal with it.
RE: RE: What a compelling...  
Chris in Philly : 6/13/2018 8:33 am : link
In comment 13989988 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13989986 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


investigative report..



Hi Chris


Hi Doc. How have you been?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
robbieballs2003 : 6/13/2018 8:33 am : link
In comment 13990007 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990001 elgoman said:


Quote:


\

If Geno plays well, he is on the team in the future. I don't see the logic where Geno isn't on the squad if he's playing well. He was like 26.



Geno isnt on the team because he sucks. And he will be lucky to make the Chargers. Not ONE team in the NFL wanted him as a starter last year or this year. This is fact and got not be disputed.

Just because he got a start he didnt deserve by 2 incompetent people out of football, does not make him the future of anything.


Dep, I will give him credit and say if Geno played well then maybe he would have resigned here. However, and this is the big part, if Geno was brought back there is a good chance that we draft a QB and that makes Geno irrelvant anyway.
RE: One of the worst things the Giants have ever done  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 8:35 am : link
In comment 13989946 BladeCleaver said:
Quote:


Most blame McAdope. He definitely was the instigator. He threw Eli under the bus every chance he could because Eli wasn't mobile enough to run his crappy offense. He wanted a chance to prove it was the player not the system. While one game is not enough evaluation, Geno shit the bed and the fans who were already outraged demanded an explanation. McAdope and Reese were sent to the pit of misery. Dilly Dilly.

What got overlooked is the owners signed off on this. They quickly spun this as "our intentions were mis interpreted." And "we didn't expect Eli to react this way"

I call bullshit. Management (mainly Mara) was weighing the outcomes of everything. With Eli's streak ended, it makes him easier to trade, cut, etc. for the fans. also, had Geno come in an lit it up, they could have kept Eli on the bench and parted ways at the end of the season. Well the outcry against the way they did this was too overwhelming and in most ways it backfired. They did clear the streak hurdle, which still makes it easier to part ways even two years from now.

Bottom line is ownership was to blame for this. They signed off. They could have undone this.


I am restraining myself from diving head first in this topic for the zillionth time...but this is largely right. So thanks for posting.

Indeed, Mara is the guy who agreed to pull this trigger. He knew every detail of the plan he hatched with Reese and McAdoo. Anything he says otherwise is a lie.

But when the tidal wave of criticism hit, he slouched away like a coward, and used it as the trip wire to fire McAdoo earlier than intended. Mara needed a fall guy to take the heat off him and Jints Central, so McAdoo was the easy choice.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:35 am : link
In comment 13990015 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:

Dep, I will give him credit and say if Geno played well then maybe he would have resigned here. However, and this is the big part, if Geno was brought back there is a good chance that we draft a QB and that makes Geno irrelvant anyway.


Geno could have started every game to finish the year and he wasnt coming back. He was a FA, so even by playing well - he would have wanted a contract we couldnt afford. Eli was coming back based on salary alone, and Webb would still be here.

Geno Smith was on a 1 year deal to be a backup in case Eli got hurt and we had a chance at the playoffs. Once we were all but eliminated in week 5, he really should have been cut as he served no purpose on the team.
RE: RE: One of the worst things the Giants have ever done  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:37 am : link
In comment 13990017 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Indeed, Mara is the guy who agreed to pull this trigger. He knew every detail of the plan he hatched with Reese and McAdoo. Anything he says otherwise is a lie.




No he didnt. You have been shown a zillion times that Mara was under the impression that Eli would be pulled once the game was out of hand.

Maybe you should stop worrying about criticizing ownership and learn what is actually transpiring.
RE: RE: RE: But  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 8:37 am : link
In comment 13989999 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13989998 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13989970 liteamorn said:


Quote:


Geno Smith?




Geno Smith received a 80+ PFF grade, so Geno's so-called "terrible" game was graded as Eli's best 2017 game. This means Geno's "worst" is Eli's "best". Following this logic, McAdoo was 100% right to start Geno.

Webb doesn't average a 80+ PFF rating in his first game. First round rookies rarely do, so Webb wouldn't, especially when Webb himself admitted "he was not ready".

Mara deciding to listen to ignorant know-it-all fans on roster decisions is the dumbest decision I've ever seen him make. Mara fired everyone to appease Eli and hatemongers.



lol, 1 TD, 2 turnovers and 200 yards was better than any other game ELi played last year? Great use of logic.

By the way, the Raiders were one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL last year.


Did you watch the game?

The Raiders' pass defense was bad overall against teams with full offensive strength. However our team was playing 2nd and 3rd string receivers, whom Raiders' starters are obviously better than.

So Geno played with a handicapped Giants team. Under heavy pressure he led 2 TD drives (almost 3), and was driving to a 4th in the closing minutes which would have tied things up. The two fumbles aren't Geno's fault. Any QB turns the ball over under such heavy pressure.

Based on the circumstances, PFF agrees with me that Geno played well and that's what got him the 80+ grade. If PFF thought the Raiders' D was so weak, Geno doesn't get that grade.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 8:39 am : link
In comment 13990019 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990015 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:



Dep, I will give him credit and say if Geno played well then maybe he would have resigned here. However, and this is the big part, if Geno was brought back there is a good chance that we draft a QB and that makes Geno irrelvant anyway.



Geno could have started every game to finish the year and he wasnt coming back. He was a FA, so even by playing well - he would have wanted a contract we couldnt afford. Eli was coming back based on salary alone, and Webb would still be here.

Geno Smith was on a 1 year deal to be a backup in case Eli got hurt and we had a chance at the playoffs. Once we were all but eliminated in week 5, he really should have been cut as he served no purpose on the team.


Reese and McAdoo made the decision over who comes back, and yes they would have re-signed Geno. Geno was not signed as insurance policy if Eli got hurt. The Giants FO never said that. As far as we can see, Geno's purpose on the team was to put pressure on Eli and compete for the job, same as Webb. The 1 year contract was incase things didn't work out (they didn't).
RE: RE: RE: RE: But  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:41 am : link
In comment 13990021 elgoman said:
Quote:

Did you watch the game?

The Raiders' pass defense was bad overall against teams with full offensive strength. However our team was playing 2nd and 3rd string receivers, whom Raiders' starters are obviously better than.

So Geno played with a handicapped Giants team. Under heavy pressure he led 2 TD drives (almost 3), and was driving to a 4th in the closing minutes which would have tied things up. The two fumbles aren't Geno's fault. Any QB turns the ball over under such heavy pressure.

Based on the circumstances, PFF agrees with me that Geno played well and that's what got him the 80+ grade. If PFF thought the Raiders' D was so weak, Geno doesn't get that grade.


So he threw 1 TD pass.... ALMOST threw another (never heard that before). Of course the fumbles arent his fault especially the one inside the 5 where he held it for 3 seconds to long, but thats another story. Oh yeah, did you know he didnt throw a pass deeper than 20 yards? Awesome, huh? His biggest completion was a horrendous throw to Shepard who had to make a spectacular catch (on an easy throw mind you), broke a tackles and went for 60 yards?

Maybe you didnt watch the game. And PFF - thats your basis? The same group who gave Rodgers a negative grade when he threw for 5 TDs and 0 INTs?

200 yards, 1 TD, and 2 turnovers are facts and they are terrible coming against a terrible team.

If his performance was so "great" - you would have figured teams would have lined up to sign him, right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 8:42 am : link
In comment 13990022 elgoman said:
Quote:


Reese and McAdoo made the decision over who comes back, and yes they would have re-signed Geno. Geno was not signed as insurance policy if Eli got hurt. The Giants FO never said that. As far as we can see, Geno's purpose on the team was to put pressure on Eli and compete for the job, same as Webb. The 1 year contract was incase things didn't work out (they didn't).


First the John Jerry troll
Next the Orleans Darkwa troll
Now the Geno Smith troll
But dep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 8:43 am : link
if he did this, he'd lose a valuable shot to work the term "Jints Central" into every fucking post. A parodic imbecile at this point.

Quote:
Maybe you should stop worrying about criticizing ownership and learn what is actually transpiring.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Benching Eli was the correct  
dorgan : 6/13/2018 8:45 am : link
In comment 13990027 dep026 said:
Quote:



Quote:







First the John Jerry troll
Next the Orleans Darkwa troll
Now the Geno Smith troll



who's next? Handley? That's some weird shit.

RE: Some of you have not quoted Eli at all.  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 8:47 am : link
In comment 13989981 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
He never said he wouldn't play half a game. He said going into a game with that mentality is not hiw he was taught to play football. He said even if they were winning that he could be pulled just because made no sense to him. He was always taught to give his best and go out there to win every game regardless of the situation. This mentality brought us two super bowls.

So, all he said was if you feel he doesn't give the team the best chamce to win then go with the guy that does. If McAdoo thought Geno gave them a better shot then treat Geno like the starting QB and let him prepare that way. Imo, a player shouldn't have to say that to a coach. McAdoo was in over his head.

Eli laid out hlw football should be played amd McAdoo amd Reese still decided that Geno was the better chance and benched Manning. McAdoo has no balls and threw this back on Eli. This wasn't a situation of a team blowing us out and another QB getting reps. This was a situation of we could be up by 10 points and then Geno was coming in just because.

Do we all forget that these are football players and in thjs sport you are trained to fight, compete, and never give up? I'd be extremely disappointed in any player that didn't have that instilled in them. They didn't expect Eli to say what he did? Why? I'd expect every player to be unhappy if this conversation happened. But, ultimately, it is every HC's decision for who starts and who doesn't. Any HC that deflects that blame is a fuckin pussy.


Exactly.

Can anybody give me a prior precedent where a QB was only going to play the half of a game for the rest of a season, predetermined whether winning or losing, in order to play other guys?

I've always thought the game as it was played dictated the situation. As in you work in younger players when the game is out of hand one way or the other. This is how they play it all the way down to the pee wee level.
Not a predetermined time set before the game is ever played.

The whole idea was half cocked from the get go, and a perfect example of how incompetent McAdoo was.
Basically the entire sports WORLD....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 8:55 am : link
came out and blasted Mara, Reese, and McAdoo while supporting Eli Manning and his decision.... Players from our rivals, former great Giants, talking heads, other coaches, and guys from other sports....

But we have a handful of guys on BBI, Giants fans no less, that want to still blame it on Eli.

I was a bit too young during the Handley years  
aimrocky : 6/13/2018 8:57 am : link
so Ben McAdoo is the most hated Giant during my time as a fan. Everything about that guy was unlikable, from his hair, to his abrasiveness, boring press conferences, bland offense, and worst off how quick he was to throw the face of the franchise under the bus. It's amazing how clueless this moron really was.
Britt..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 9:02 am : link
Bingo.

Quote:
Basically the entire sports WORLD....
Britt in VA : 8:55 am : link : reply
came out and blasted Mara, Reese, and McAdoo while supporting Eli Manning and his decision.... Players from our rivals, former great Giants, talking heads, other coaches, and guys from other sports....

But we have a handful of guys on BBI, Giants fans no less, that want to still blame it on Eli.


It was one of the few sports topics almost everyone was united on. The fact that the biggest debate and attempt to throw the blame at eli is being done by supposed Giants fans is just comical.

Not only that, but several of the putzes think that in order to save face, we kept eli as the QB under some master orders from the owner! The same owner often called clueless by those posters.
And the notion that Geno Smith played with a handicapped team....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:02 am : link
as any sort of reason why he was as good as, or superior to, Manning is laughable.

A sh-t team is a sh-t team. You could pick any number of guys back there and there would have been similar results.

It's not an indictment on Manning, it's an indictment on the roster and coaching.

Eli Manning is going to make a lot of you eat your words this upcoming season. I hope you come back to eat your gigantic plate of crow and not run and hide or backtrack on your very strong and definitive hot takes.
RE: Britt..  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:05 am : link
In comment 13990045 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Bingo.



Quote:


Basically the entire sports WORLD....
Britt in VA : 8:55 am : link : reply
came out and blasted Mara, Reese, and McAdoo while supporting Eli Manning and his decision.... Players from our rivals, former great Giants, talking heads, other coaches, and guys from other sports....

But we have a handful of guys on BBI, Giants fans no less, that want to still blame it on Eli.



It was one of the few sports topics almost everyone was united on. The fact that the biggest debate and attempt to throw the blame at eli is being done by supposed Giants fans is just comical.

Not only that, but several of the putzes think that in order to save face, we kept eli as the QB under some master orders from the owner! The same owner often called clueless by those posters.


If it was trolling, I would have a good laugh at the reactions, but it's not trolling.

These guys really believe it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: But  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 9:07 am : link
In comment 13990024 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990021 elgoman said:


Quote:



Did you watch the game?

The Raiders' pass defense was bad overall against teams with full offensive strength. However our team was playing 2nd and 3rd string receivers, whom Raiders' starters are obviously better than.

So Geno played with a handicapped Giants team. Under heavy pressure he led 2 TD drives (almost 3), and was driving to a 4th in the closing minutes which would have tied things up. The two fumbles aren't Geno's fault. Any QB turns the ball over under such heavy pressure.

Based on the circumstances, PFF agrees with me that Geno played well and that's what got him the 80+ grade. If PFF thought the Raiders' D was so weak, Geno doesn't get that grade.



So he threw 1 TD pass.... ALMOST threw another (never heard that before). Of course the fumbles arent his fault especially the one inside the 5 where he held it for 3 seconds to long, but thats another story. Oh yeah, did you know he didnt throw a pass deeper than 20 yards? Awesome, huh? His biggest completion was a horrendous throw to Shepard who had to make a spectacular catch (on an easy throw mind you), broke a tackles and went for 60 yards?

Maybe you didnt watch the game. And PFF - thats your basis? The same group who gave Rodgers a negative grade when he threw for 5 TDs and 0 INTs?

200 yards, 1 TD, and 2 turnovers are facts and they are terrible coming against a terrible team.

If his performance was so "great" - you would have figured teams would have lined up to sign him, right?


Context matters. Rodger's game was unusually full of screen passes, what kind of grade does he deserve for that? In the end, Rodgers' game was top of the league, so it evened out. You can't use an exception game to say invalidate all PFF grades.

Geno led 2 TD drives, one where he threw the TD himself and another drive where he marched the team down the field to punch it in. On the fumble, Geno led us into the red zone. You can't blame the fumble on him entirely because he was under heavy pressure all game and fumbles are bound to happen in that hostile environment. The line wasn't blocking until Pugh came into the game and silenced Mack. Later, Geno was leading a good drive until a fumble, and he had a good late drive after that.

As far as pass depth is concerned, let me explain NFL QB'ing to you. Geno's short pass depth comes from his getting the ball out quickly in response to a bad line. We saw Geno throw farther to Shepperd when his line solidified.

Eli last year had terrible pass depth for the same reason as Geno - and I've never heard you criticize Eli for it. This kind of bias and myopia is why talking football with some of you is like discussing religion with heretics.

NFL GMs and coaches make bad QB decisions all the time. There are a couple next season who will get fired for choosing the wrong QB. So your argument that "why wasn't Geno signed as starter???" is bunk on that basis alone. I bet you said the same about Pugh, who signed a humungous contract. Not bad for a terrible guard, right?
RE: RE: Some of you have not quoted Eli at all.  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 9:07 am : link
In comment 13990033 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13989981 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


He never said he wouldn't play half a game. He said going into a game with that mentality is not hiw he was taught to play football. He said even if they were winning that he could be pulled just because made no sense to him. He was always taught to give his best and go out there to win every game regardless of the situation. This mentality brought us two super bowls.

So, all he said was if you feel he doesn't give the team the best chamce to win then go with the guy that does. If McAdoo thought Geno gave them a better shot then treat Geno like the starting QB and let him prepare that way. Imo, a player shouldn't have to say that to a coach. McAdoo was in over his head.

Eli laid out hlw football should be played amd McAdoo amd Reese still decided that Geno was the better chance and benched Manning. McAdoo has no balls and threw this back on Eli. This wasn't a situation of a team blowing us out and another QB getting reps. This was a situation of we could be up by 10 points and then Geno was coming in just because.

Do we all forget that these are football players and in thjs sport you are trained to fight, compete, and never give up? I'd be extremely disappointed in any player that didn't have that instilled in them. They didn't expect Eli to say what he did? Why? I'd expect every player to be unhappy if this conversation happened. But, ultimately, it is every HC's decision for who starts and who doesn't. Any HC that deflects that blame is a fuckin pussy.



Exactly.

Can anybody give me a prior precedent where a QB was only going to play the half of a game for the rest of a season, predetermined whether winning or losing, in order to play other guys?

I've always thought the game as it was played dictated the situation. As in you work in younger players when the game is out of hand one way or the other. This is how they play it all the way down to the pee wee level.
Not a predetermined time set before the game is ever played.

The whole idea was half cocked from the get go, and a perfect example of how incompetent McAdoo was.


I dont think any other team has been in this predicament.

If the team heads down the same path this year as last year, at least it will be easier to make a clean switch to one of the young guys.





LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 9:09 am : link
Holy shit.
The one thing that the OP,  
Section331 : 6/13/2018 9:10 am : link
who has a long history of anti-Eli rhetoric, to the point of continually highlighting videos where Davis Webb completes passes to uncovered receivers, neglects to emphasize is who Eli was being benched for.

I think if McAdoo had gone to Eli and told Eli he wanted to get Webb Some reps, they could have worked something out. Instead, McAdoo went ahead with an absurd scheme to give Geno Smith some run, while paying lip service to getting Webb Some reps, even though Webb hadn't even gotten reps in practice to that point. It was an enormous bungling by an inept HC, end of story.
No other team has been in the predicament....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:11 am : link
of having a veteran QB on the roster with a young guy they want to see after the season has slipped away?
Also, elogman....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:13 am : link
You're going to try and sit there and sell us that Geno Smith and his 1 TD, 200 yard performance against a sh-tty Raiders team is better than Eli put up all year? And you're telling us to WATCH THE GAME?

Did you happen to watch, two weeks later, when Eli put up 3 TD's and over 400 yards on the eventual Superbowl champions with the same handicapped team?
RE: No other team has been in the predicament....  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 13990059 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
of having a veteran QB on the roster with a young guy they want to see after the season has slipped away?


not one that won 2 SBs and has the current consecutive game streak running.

RE: And the notion that Geno Smith played with a handicapped team....  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 13990046 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
as any sort of reason why he was as good as, or superior to, Manning is laughable.

A sh-t team is a sh-t team. You could pick any number of guys back there and there would have been similar results.

It's not an indictment on Manning, it's an indictment on the roster and coaching.

Eli Manning is going to make a lot of you eat your words this upcoming season. I hope you come back to eat your gigantic plate of crow and not run and hide or backtrack on your very strong and definitive hot takes.


It's statistically untrue that backups with bad lines and receivers register a 89 QB rating (I won't even bring up the pff stuff). That kind of performance under those circumstances is rare.

I won't say it's an indictment of Manning, but we do have to consider other options, and shouldn't put all our eggs in one basketball. We also shouldn't insult Geno Smith for his valiant effort - and venerate the politics and BS which punished him for good play.

Ball doesn't lie.
Eli put up 400 yards and threw 3 TD's...  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:15 am : link
with a 98 rating two weeks later with the same handicapped team, against a much MUCH better team than the Raiders.
Britt hope you re not including me in  
joeinpa : 6/13/2018 9:16 am : link
Those that blame Eli. I get what he did and see his position.

I just believed at the time, that benching Eli was going to lead to Geno and Webb playing; I think that was what they said.

At that point in the season I felt it was the correct thing to do.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: But  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 9:16 am : link
In comment 13990051 elgoman said:
Quote:

Context matters. Rodger's game was unusually full of screen passes, what kind of grade does he deserve for that? In the end, Rodgers' game was top of the league, so it evened out. You can't use an exception game to say invalidate all PFF grades.

Geno led 2 TD drives, one where he threw the TD himself and another drive where he marched the team down the field to punch it in. On the fumble, Geno led us into the red zone. You can't blame the fumble on him entirely because he was under heavy pressure all game and fumbles are bound to happen in that hostile environment. The line wasn't blocking until Pugh came into the game and silenced Mack. Later, Geno was leading a good drive until a fumble, and he had a good late drive after that.

As far as pass depth is concerned, let me explain NFL QB'ing to you. Geno's short pass depth comes from his getting the ball out quickly in response to a bad line. We saw Geno throw farther to Shepperd when his line solidified.

Eli last year had terrible pass depth for the same reason as Geno - and I've never heard you criticize Eli for it. This kind of bias and myopia is why talking football with some of you is like discussing religion with heretics.

NFL GMs and coaches make bad QB decisions all the time. There are a couple next season who will get fired for choosing the wrong QB. So your argument that "why wasn't Geno signed as starter???" is bunk on that basis alone. I bet you said the same about Pugh, who signed a humungous contract. Not bad for a terrible guard, right?


There is so much wrong with this post, its damn right hysterical.

1. Context matters with Rodgers game? He threw nothing but screen passes in a 5 TD game? Got proof on that? The fact is Geno did not throw ONE pass down the field against the Raiders. Not one.

2. Geno led us into the red zone right before he fumbled? Um, wrong. The punter for Oakland fumbled the snap and was tackled leading us to get the ball inside the 5. Geno fumbled the ball away 2 plays later. Your excuses for him as why its ok to fumble is really cute as well.

3. Geno's short passes came as a result of him being a terrible QB and not being able to read defenses - one of the reasons why the Jets cut bait with him. He was terrible with them.

4. Pugh did not solidfy the line against Oakland. In fact, he didnt even play!!!!!

http://www.nfl.com/inactives?team=NYG

5. My argument is bunk on why Smith hasnt been signed to start? Well its been 2 years now, and no one wants him to start, and there is a good chance the chargers wont even want him on the team. You know why? Because he sucks donkey balls.

6. I wasnt around here last year to talk about Eli and his throws. And by your register date - November of 2017 - it doesnt seem like you were either. Well, at least under this name.

7.
Quote:
You can't use an exception game to say invalidate all PFF grades


I cant use it, but you can? Well done!!!!

8. You know why you find it hard to talk football with people here? Because you dont know what you are talking about and just make up shit as you go. But then again, you knew Pugh solidified the line once he played against Oakland, right? I never laughed so hard when you said Pugh silenced Mack.
Backups have good games all the time....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:17 am : link
it's usually because other teams don't have tape on them and aren't prepared for them.

We've had a million backups over the years come in and light us up. How long have you been watching?
RE: Britt hope you re not including me in  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:18 am : link
In comment 13990069 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Those that blame Eli. I get what he did and see his position.

I just believed at the time, that benching Eli was going to lead to Geno and Webb playing; I think that was what they said.

At that point in the season I felt it was the correct thing to do.


I would have been fine with them pulling Manning once the game gets out of hand and the season is lost.

That's how it's always been done, and the right way to do things.

What they did, however, was complete bullsh-t meant to save their ass. It backfired and they got what they deserved.
Oooooo let me play  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 9:19 am : link
advanced stats game!!

Geno Smith QBR against Oakland..... 39.2!!!! One of the worst in the league!!!

Oh wait, am I not allowed to use this one?
Geno Smith sucks donkey balls!!!! - ( New Window )
Who started this thread?  
Chris684 : 6/13/2018 9:19 am : link
Bart Scott? Is that you?

Boomer?
RE: Who started this thread?  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 9:21 am : link
In comment 13990079 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Bart Scott? Is that you?

Boomer?


Kurt Warner.
Kurt Warner actually blasted the Giants for benching Eli.  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 9:22 am : link
.
dep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 9:28 am : link
Nice retort

Quote:
There is so much wrong with this post, its damn right hysterical.


All I could muster was a "LOL. Holy Shit" as we are clearly getting played by a troll who thinks he can put game facts past fans who follow the team closely.

The comments about Pugh are just classic. Pugh silenced Mack in a game he didn't play in! The Force is strong with that one.
...  
christian : 6/13/2018 9:30 am : link
The whole situation was botched -- and as much as I respect him I blame Mara. In the attempt to spare feelings and find a happy ending for the Coughlin/Reese/Manning era he created a disaster.

He needs to be more deliberate and not count on others playing along. He wanted Coughlin to play the part of graceful exit, wanted Manning to play the part of obedient predecessor, Macadoo as peaceful transition of the empire.

But these things don't usually end well. There are few fairy tell endings. Usually you've either gotten old or not succeeded in such a long time past success is a distant memory.

This off-season is hopeful. Gettleman and Shurmur seem to have the latitude to make decisions and don't have the ghost of the last regime's success looking.

I'm solidly on the record saying I don't believe Manning has enough left in the tank to carry a bad team into contention. I'll be shocked and thrilled if the stars align the next few years.

But the best thing for this team and future in the immediate term is figuring out right now what Manning has left and making a direct decision to end it or build on it.

Seems finally there's a coach and GM with the wisdom and mandate to make a decision.
RE: dep..  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 9:31 am : link
In comment 13990085 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

The comments about Pugh are just classic. Pugh silenced Mack in a game he didn't play in! The Force is strong with that one.


Well Arizona signed him to that big contract because if he could shut down Mack from the sidelines - imagine what he could do when he played!
Given..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 9:41 am : link
the other factual inaccuracies, I wonder if Geno actually has that high a rating by PFF? It would crack me up if even that point was horseshit.
RE: ...  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 9:44 am : link
In comment 13990087 christian said:
Quote:
The whole situation was botched -- and as much as I respect him I blame Mara. In the attempt to spare feelings and find a happy ending for the Coughlin/Reese/Manning era he created a disaster.

He needs to be more deliberate and not count on others playing along. He wanted Coughlin to play the part of graceful exit, wanted Manning to play the part of obedient predecessor, Macadoo as peaceful transition of the empire.

But these things don't usually end well. There are few fairy tell endings. Usually you've either gotten old or not succeeded in such a long time past success is a distant memory.

This off-season is hopeful. Gettleman and Shurmur seem to have the latitude to make decisions and don't have the ghost of the last regime's success looking.

I'm solidly on the record saying I don't believe Manning has enough left in the tank to carry a bad team into contention. I'll be shocked and thrilled if the stars align the next few years.

But the best thing for this team and future in the immediate term is figuring out right now what Manning has left and making a direct decision to end it or build on it.

Seems finally there's a coach and GM with the wisdom and mandate to make a decision.


I'm pretty much with you here (perhaps a little more bullish on Eli's abilities though)
RE: Given..  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 13990092 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the other factual inaccuracies, I wonder if Geno actually has that high a rating by PFF? It would crack me up if even that point was horseshit.


He actually did. More proof of how PFF is spotty at best. The best is he uses QB rating for his argument even though they do not account lost fumbles.
Looking for a highlight...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 10:00 am : link
but Rodgers had several deep completions in the 5 TD game. Here's two descriptions

Quote:
He was sacked once and was under duress for spurts from Chiefs pressure.But Rodgers, who finished 24 of 35, burned the secondary on free-play situations following defensive penalties. The first was on the 27 yard TD prior to halftime to James Jones on a beautiful throw to the back of the end zone. The longest gain came on a 52-yard catch in the fourth quarter by Jones again following an offside penalty, setting up Cobb's third touchdown catch.
.  
Greg from LI : 6/13/2018 10:16 am : link


And they would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids!

Britt  
joeinpa : 6/13/2018 10:17 am : link
No argument here, they got what they deserved
Matt in SGS, and christian  
JonC : 6/13/2018 10:20 am : link
+1
They should have just not told Eli anything  
I Love Clams Casino : 6/13/2018 10:33 am : link
so he would start. Then see how the game was going and have McAdoo make the decision to bench or not bench Eli.

Questions afterwards (if he did bench him) would be answered with "it was a coaching decision"

End of story
RE: What a compelling...  
Go Terps : 6/13/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13989986 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
investigative report..


RE: RE: RE: One of the worst things the Giants have ever done  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/13/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13990020 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990017 bw in dc said:


Quote:




Indeed, Mara is the guy who agreed to pull this trigger. He knew every detail of the plan he hatched with Reese and McAdoo. Anything he says otherwise is a lie.






No he didnt. You have been shown a zillion times that Mara was under the impression that Eli would be pulled once the game was out of hand.

Maybe you should stop worrying about criticizing ownership and learn what is actually transpiring.

I generally think bw has a jaded view toward Giants' ownership/management, but I tend to agree with him here. Everything Mara has said since it all went down has felt like spin. He didn't expect Eli to refuse, and didn't expect the fan/media backlash to be as severe as it was. He fired everyone involved except for the one guy he couldn't: himself. That's how spin campaigns work.

If it was just as simple as pulling the starting QB when a game got out of hand in a season that had already gotten out of hand, why would anyone need the owner's blessing? That's just SOP for any football team. Mara definitely knew in advance that there was an intention for a schedule of playing time associated with McAdoo's plan, IMO.
Whether you think he's lying or not....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:38 am : link
What Mara said the day after was:

He mentioned to Reese that the season was out of hand and it was time to see what the younger guys could do. Reese said that he and McAdoo had already been discussing it. That was the extent of Mara's involvement according to him. And this was the day after when the questions were the harshest and the answers probably the rawest.

Then, McAdoo took that and turned it into "we're pulling you at halftime regardless".

It really depends on how you view Mara. I view him as a non meddling owner who is only peripherally involved in the football operations and let's the professionals do their job, as opposed to say... a Jerry Jones type who is roaming the sidelines.

I think this was a poorly thought out plan from the get go, and I think Mara gave them an inch and they took a mile. That's my view.

IMO, if the plan as executed was told to Mara beforehand, he would have made sure to be there when something like that was presented to Eli. He wasn't even in the building. I think the whole thing truly took him by surprise, and being the professional that he is, he tried to absorb some of the blame from Reese and McAdoo.
RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the worst things the Giants have ever done  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 11:40 am : link
In comment 13990183 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13990020 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990017 bw in dc said:


Quote:




Indeed, Mara is the guy who agreed to pull this trigger. He knew every detail of the plan he hatched with Reese and McAdoo. Anything he says otherwise is a lie.






No he didnt. You have been shown a zillion times that Mara was under the impression that Eli would be pulled once the game was out of hand.

Maybe you should stop worrying about criticizing ownership and learn what is actually transpiring.


I generally think bw has a jaded view toward Giants' ownership/management, but I tend to agree with him here. Everything Mara has said since it all went down has felt like spin. He didn't expect Eli to refuse, and didn't expect the fan/media backlash to be as severe as it was. He fired everyone involved except for the one guy he couldn't: himself. That's how spin campaigns work.

If it was just as simple as pulling the starting QB when a game got out of hand in a season that had already gotten out of hand, why would anyone need the owner's blessing? That's just SOP for any football team. Mara definitely knew in advance that there was an intention for a schedule of playing time associated with McAdoo's plan, IMO.


Yes, Mara also talked about giving the guys meaningful reps, not just playing in mop up duty. Mara was not under the impression that the switch would ONLY happen when the game is out of hand. But I also believe him when he says that there should be some flexibility with regards to game situation.

I believe his plan (and yes I believe that this was his directive) lays somewhere in between an automatic switch at halftime and only getting reps in mop up duty. But he didn't articulate it well.
Agreed ^  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:42 am : link
.
However, I don't agree that overall it was his directive.  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:43 am : link
Reese and McAdoo had been throwing Eli under the bus for weeks, years in Reese's case.

Mara handing down a directive does not fit his MO.
Telling the head coach who to start at QB and when....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:44 am : link
is a Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder type move. Not a Mara type move.
here is the exact quote  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 11:48 am : link
Note two things:

1) He suggests it to JR, not the other way around
2) The initial conversations happened weeks before, that leads me to believe that Ben resisted until they were mathematically eliminated. I know this goes against the Ben hated Eli and tried to scapegoat him narrative that is popular here.

"I had mentioned to (GM Jerry Reese) a week or two ago, don't you think it's time to start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during these games," Mara said to start his press conference. "And he agreed, said he'd already had a conversation with Ben about that. Jerry called me on Monday afternoon, I was at a family function in Virginia, to tell me that Ben was going to be speaking to Eli to let him know that he was going to continue to start the game(s) — he was going to start the game on Sunday — but that at some point Geno would come into the game.

"Tuesday morning, Jerry called me and said that Eli had informed Ben that if you're gonna play Geno in the second half, you may as well just start him. It's not fair to him, it's not fair to me," Mara recounted. "I think that would be the best decision going forward. And he also wanted us to put out a statement announcing that. So that's what we did."
And I think, even though I didn't quote it verbatim,  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:57 am : link
that that's exactly what I described in my post about what Mara said.
What I said he said:  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 11:59 am : link
Quote:
He mentioned to Reese that the season was out of hand and it was time to see what the younger guys could do. Reese said that he and McAdoo had already been discussing it. That was the extent of Mara's involvement according to him.


What he actually said:

Quote:
"I had mentioned to (GM Jerry Reese) a week or two ago, don't you think it's time to start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during these games," Mara said to start his press conference. "And he agreed, said he'd already had a conversation with Ben about that. Jerry called me on Monday afternoon, I was at a family function in Virginia, to tell me that Ben was going to be speaking to Eli to let him know that he was going to continue to start the game(s) — he was going to start the game on Sunday — but that at some point Geno would come into the game.


I'm not seeing a disconnect between the two.
Eli forced Issue  
Giantslifer : 6/13/2018 12:07 pm : link
First off - he deserved to be benched.
Secondly _ from what I saw on TV he refused to start game knowing he'd be benched.
McMagoo screwed up a lot, but Eli deserved to be benched .
Quite honestly, if ,in relative terms his contract wasn't so cheap, he should have been traded if Giants could have gotten a 1st or 2nd rd pick.
Eli will play out the 2 years on his contract and retire (from Giants) gracefully.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: But  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13990070 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990051 elgoman said:


Quote:



Context matters. Rodger's game was unusually full of screen passes, what kind of grade does he deserve for that? In the end, Rodgers' game was top of the league, so it evened out. You can't use an exception game to say invalidate all PFF grades.

Geno led 2 TD drives, one where he threw the TD himself and another drive where he marched the team down the field to punch it in. On the fumble, Geno led us into the red zone. You can't blame the fumble on him entirely because he was under heavy pressure all game and fumbles are bound to happen in that hostile environment. The line wasn't blocking until Pugh came into the game and silenced Mack. Later, Geno was leading a good drive until a fumble, and he had a good late drive after that.

As far as pass depth is concerned, let me explain NFL QB'ing to you. Geno's short pass depth comes from his getting the ball out quickly in response to a bad line. We saw Geno throw farther to Shepperd when his line solidified.

Eli last year had terrible pass depth for the same reason as Geno - and I've never heard you criticize Eli for it. This kind of bias and myopia is why talking football with some of you is like discussing religion with heretics.

NFL GMs and coaches make bad QB decisions all the time. There are a couple next season who will get fired for choosing the wrong QB. So your argument that "why wasn't Geno signed as starter???" is bunk on that basis alone. I bet you said the same about Pugh, who signed a humungous contract. Not bad for a terrible guard, right?



There is so much wrong with this post, its damn right hysterical.

1. Context matters with Rodgers game? He threw nothing but screen passes in a 5 TD game? Got proof on that? The fact is Geno did not throw ONE pass down the field against the Raiders. Not one.

2. Geno led us into the red zone right before he fumbled? Um, wrong. The punter for Oakland fumbled the snap and was tackled leading us to get the ball inside the 5. Geno fumbled the ball away 2 plays later. Your excuses for him as why its ok to fumble is really cute as well.

3. Geno's short passes came as a result of him being a terrible QB and not being able to read defenses - one of the reasons why the Jets cut bait with him. He was terrible with them.

4. Pugh did not solidfy the line against Oakland. In fact, he didnt even play!!!!!

http://www.nfl.com/inactives?team=NYG

5. My argument is bunk on why Smith hasnt been signed to start? Well its been 2 years now, and no one wants him to start, and there is a good chance the chargers wont even want him on the team. You know why? Because he sucks donkey balls.

6. I wasnt around here last year to talk about Eli and his throws. And by your register date - November of 2017 - it doesnt seem like you were either. Well, at least under this name.

7.

Quote:


You can't use an exception game to say invalidate all PFF grades



I cant use it, but you can? Well done!!!!

8. You know why you find it hard to talk football with people here? Because you dont know what you are talking about and just make up shit as you go. But then again, you knew Pugh solidified the line once he played against Oakland, right? I never laughed so hard when you said Pugh silenced Mack.


1. To be specific, the Rodgers game was screen passes and easy wide open passes for TDs. He had a bad fumble and a dropped INT. So he didn't get a fantastic grade for that 1 game. His overall grade for the season however was top 5, so that game was an exception. Your trying to use 1 game to invalidate everything PFF does so you can attack Geno.

2. PFF gave Geno a 80+ rating because, no matter how many times you say it, the fumbles weren't Geno's fault. I'll prove it here with tape. This means you can't nitpick at semantics or misrepresent happenings. We can directly see who is to blame for the red zone fumble:

https://streamable.com/n0bmw

It's 2nd and goal. The offense is in Shotgun (3 WRs, 1 HB and 1 TE). Raiders are in Cover 2. The RT Chad Wheeler's job is to block Mack. Engram has two hands on the ground, which implies his job is to chip Mack. Geno drops back, pump fakes to get his WR open and succeeds. Vereen is open. Then, before Geno can get the ball out, he is stripped by Mack. What happened?

TE Engram doesn't chip anyone and RT Chad Wheeler whiffs Mack, giving him a free release on Geno. In other words, the tape proves the red zone fumble wasn't Geno's fault.

3. Good QB play with a bad poor line and bad receivers is throwing short. Throwing long all the time only leads to turnovers. That aside, Eli threw short all season and you deny he's a bad QB. So Geno is a bad QB for doing the same thing Eli does? That's absurd. You're not intellectually honest.

4. My mistake, it was Hart that spelled in for Wheeler and solified the line. Wheeler and Flowers were terrible.

5. My argument remains the same. NFL GMs didn't sign Keenum or Foles as starter, despite in the fact both Keenum and Foles are good enough to start. Accordingly then, GMs not clamoring the sign Geno doesn't mean anything. The Giants tape says Geno is good. Anthony Lynn is the Chargers coach, and he likely pushed for Geno's signing, as he was coached for the Jets while Geno was there. This logically implies you're wrong and the Chargers want Geno on the team (hence the coach vouching for him).


Semantics aside, the tape proves you don't know football, you don't know how to evaluate QBs, and PFF had every reason to give Geno his 80+. Just go watch tape and stop making stuff up. Geno was not even at fault for the 1st fumble; Flowers whiffed on his block.


RE: What I said he said:  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13990245 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


He mentioned to Reese that the season was out of hand and it was time to see what the younger guys could do. Reese said that he and McAdoo had already been discussing it. That was the extent of Mara's involvement according to him.



What he actually said:



Quote:


"I had mentioned to (GM Jerry Reese) a week or two ago, don't you think it's time to start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during these games," Mara said to start his press conference. "And he agreed, said he'd already had a conversation with Ben about that. Jerry called me on Monday afternoon, I was at a family function in Virginia, to tell me that Ben was going to be speaking to Eli to let him know that he was going to continue to start the game(s) — he was going to start the game on Sunday — but that at some point Geno would come into the game.



I'm not seeing a disconnect between the two.


I'm not disagree with you on that point. I just don't buy that this was some diabolical plan by Mac to save face. If so why wait for mathematical elimination when it was clear by week 8 the team was going nowhere. (really at 0-5 we were done)

Mac was trying to win games to save his job. That why he kept playing Eli and didn't bother to give Webb any reps as he saw the writing on the wall that unless he started winning we wouldn't get a chance to coach webb
RE: Also, elogman....  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13990060 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
You're going to try and sit there and sell us that Geno Smith and his 1 TD, 200 yard performance against a sh-tty Raiders team is better than Eli put up all year? And you're telling us to WATCH THE GAME?

Did you happen to watch, two weeks later, when Eli put up 3 TD's and over 400 yards on the eventual Superbowl champions with the same handicapped team?


Yeah it is. You're just looking at box stats, which as anyone knows can be misleading. We evaluate QBs by their tap. Geno displayed great footwork, accuracy, arm strength and mobility. Eli didn't display any of the above all year.
LMAO  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:12 pm : link
this has to be a joke now
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:13 pm : link
some people just don't know when to quit from behind.

Not only was there the mistake on Pugh, but Geno "driving" the team to the red zone once where he actually didn't move the ball after the special teams recovered the bad punt snap.

And then has the gall to say other posters don't know how to understand the game.

Fuck me up the ass with a diseased stick.
Who is "we"  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:15 pm : link
Quote:
We evaluate QBs by their tap. Geno displayed great footwork, accuracy, arm strength and mobility. Eli didn't display any of the above all year.


I ignore your previous post because honestly, it was not good.

And those "traits" Geno showed - no he didnt.
geno showed  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:17 pm : link
great arm strength, yet never threw the ball downfield more than 20 yards. Great analysis.

The biggest play of the day was a Geno horrific throw over the middle.
RE: RE: What I said he said:  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13990266 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 13990245 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Quote:


He mentioned to Reese that the season was out of hand and it was time to see what the younger guys could do. Reese said that he and McAdoo had already been discussing it. That was the extent of Mara's involvement according to him.



What he actually said:



Quote:


"I had mentioned to (GM Jerry Reese) a week or two ago, don't you think it's time to start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during these games," Mara said to start his press conference. "And he agreed, said he'd already had a conversation with Ben about that. Jerry called me on Monday afternoon, I was at a family function in Virginia, to tell me that Ben was going to be speaking to Eli to let him know that he was going to continue to start the game(s) — he was going to start the game on Sunday — but that at some point Geno would come into the game.



I'm not seeing a disconnect between the two.



I'm not disagree with you on that point. I just don't buy that this was some diabolical plan by Mac to save face. If so why wait for mathematical elimination when it was clear by week 8 the team was going nowhere. (really at 0-5 we were done)

Mac was trying to win games to save his job. That why he kept playing Eli and didn't bother to give Webb any reps as he saw the writing on the wall that unless he started winning we wouldn't get a chance to coach webb


If McAdoo hadn't been heaping the blame at Manning for weeks prior I would agree with you. But McAdoo was throwing blame at Eli's feet going all the way back to 2016 as a reason for the offense's ineptitude. "QB has to play in 'dirty pockets'".It was discussed weekly here.

Reese's deflections go all the way back to 2012 when he was calling Manning "skittish", as if he shouldn't be playing behind those "lines" that Reese assembled.
RE: RE: Also, elogman....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13990269 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990060 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


You're going to try and sit there and sell us that Geno Smith and his 1 TD, 200 yard performance against a sh-tty Raiders team is better than Eli put up all year? And you're telling us to WATCH THE GAME?

Did you happen to watch, two weeks later, when Eli put up 3 TD's and over 400 yards on the eventual Superbowl champions with the same handicapped team?



Yeah it is. You're just looking at box stats, which as anyone knows can be misleading. We evaluate QBs by their tap. Geno displayed great footwork, accuracy, arm strength and mobility. Eli didn't display any of the above all year.


So Geno's 200 yard, 1 TD game against the 6-10 Raiders was better than Eli's 400 yard, 3 TD game against the Superbowl Champion Eagles.

Got it.
RE: RE: RE: What I said he said:  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13990281 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13990266 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 13990245 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




Quote:


He mentioned to Reese that the season was out of hand and it was time to see what the younger guys could do. Reese said that he and McAdoo had already been discussing it. That was the extent of Mara's involvement according to him.



What he actually said:



Quote:


"I had mentioned to (GM Jerry Reese) a week or two ago, don't you think it's time to start to get a look at these other quarterbacks at some point during these games," Mara said to start his press conference. "And he agreed, said he'd already had a conversation with Ben about that. Jerry called me on Monday afternoon, I was at a family function in Virginia, to tell me that Ben was going to be speaking to Eli to let him know that he was going to continue to start the game(s) — he was going to start the game on Sunday — but that at some point Geno would come into the game.



I'm not seeing a disconnect between the two.



I'm not disagree with you on that point. I just don't buy that this was some diabolical plan by Mac to save face. If so why wait for mathematical elimination when it was clear by week 8 the team was going nowhere. (really at 0-5 we were done)

Mac was trying to win games to save his job. That why he kept playing Eli and didn't bother to give Webb any reps as he saw the writing on the wall that unless he started winning we wouldn't get a chance to coach webb



If McAdoo hadn't been heaping the blame at Manning for weeks prior I would agree with you. But McAdoo was throwing blame at Eli's feet going all the way back to 2016 as a reason for the offense's ineptitude. "QB has to play in 'dirty pockets'".It was discussed weekly here.

Reese's deflections go all the way back to 2012 when he was calling Manning "skittish", as if he shouldn't be playing behind those "lines" that Reese assembled.


Mac made like two or three comments. Reese made one. Stop with the conspiracy against Eli theories

oh boo fucking hoo, Reese made a true statement about Eli  
Greg from LI : 6/13/2018 12:26 pm : link
Poor Eli. Poor, poor Eli.
If we wanted to see skittish on a daily basis  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:28 pm : link
we would have sat through a reese presser.
Wife: ''I'm going to sleep w other men.  
BigBlue in Keys : 6/13/2018 12:33 pm : link
But it's ok we can stay married."

Husband: "No, that's not how it works, just give me a divorce."

Sxdxca: "Husband's fault he asked for divorce!"
RE: oh boo fucking hoo, Reese made a true statement about Eli  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13990293 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Poor Eli. Poor, poor Eli.


That's not the point. That's taking what I said out of the context of the conversation.
RE: RE: RE: Also, elogman....  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13990284 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13990269 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990060 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


You're going to try and sit there and sell us that Geno Smith and his 1 TD, 200 yard performance against a sh-tty Raiders team is better than Eli put up all year? And you're telling us to WATCH THE GAME?

Did you happen to watch, two weeks later, when Eli put up 3 TD's and over 400 yards on the eventual Superbowl champions with the same handicapped team?



Yeah it is. You're just looking at box stats, which as anyone knows can be misleading. We evaluate QBs by their tap. Geno displayed great footwork, accuracy, arm strength and mobility. Eli didn't display any of the above all year.



So Geno's 200 yard, 1 TD game against the 6-10 Raiders was better than Eli's 400 yard, 3 TD game against the Superbowl Champion Eagles.

Got it.


I didn't say that. I think Eli's Philly game was fantastic, albeit with some caveats. We have to remember that we played them in Week 15 and Philly had already made the playoffs by then. Eli's play against teams with something to play for, like Arizona, was horrid.
Sorry I did not read this whole thread  
pjcas18 : 6/13/2018 12:44 pm : link
but why not just let it go?

I admit I was late to embrace Eli. His career started out tenuously IMO and it hit some low points even during 2007, so I was late to the game, but I grew to appreciate Eli for what he was. A legit franchise QB, often underrated or under appreciated (nationally especially). And a potential Hall of Famer.

But the reaction to his benching has been surprising to me. Grown men crying (with their wives) people who can't get past it.

Just let it go......

and I admit I'm sort of like Sonny from Bronx Tale as it relates to pro athletes, but still surprises me.

You can pretty much swap in Eli Manning here for Mickey Mantle. and change 100k to $22M.

Quote:
Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $100,000 a year. How much does your father make? If your father can't pay the rent go ask Mickey Mantle and see what what he tells you. Mickey Mantle don't care about you. Why should you care about him? Nobody cares.


Management was hypocritical  
WideRight : 6/13/2018 12:45 pm : link
Wanting to keep a streak alive and giving back-ups some work are terible considerations when putting world class athletes in harms way. That is never more important than playing to win. If they weren't playing to win, then all the starters should be protected, like a preseason game.

Eli was right. Play to win or sit.

My theory was that McAdoo was angling towards getting Eli out. So he was prefectly OK with breaking news in an insensitive, ill-conceived manner. He thought he was bigger than Eli.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, elogman....  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13990315 elgoman said:
Quote:



I didn't say that. I think Eli's Philly game was fantastic, albeit with some caveats. We have to remember that we played them in Week 15 and Philly had already made the playoffs by then.


Philly wasnt playing for home field advantage? Really? They coasted that game and lose out on the biggest advantage in pro football?

You are really on point this thread.
RE: LOL...  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13990272 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
some people just don't know when to quit from behind.

Not only was there the mistake on Pugh, but Geno "driving" the team to the red zone once where he actually didn't move the ball after the special teams recovered the bad punt snap.

And then has the gall to say other posters don't know how to understand the game.

Fuck me up the ass with a diseased stick.


So I made a semantic mistake with Pugh and a drive, and suddenly I don't know what I'm talking about. Friend, I also gave a football analysis proving why we're wrong to fault Geno for the redzone fumble. You won't touch that analysis, because you know it's correct, but you'll talk about semantics. LOL
Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:48 pm : link
fumble was absolutely his fault. It was a quick pattern where he pump faked, brought the ball down and just sat in the pocket. The protection wasnt good, but he had the ball in his hands for over 3 seconds.

Indecision, the story of Geno Smith.
The best part of Geno Smith's biggest play  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:51 pm : link
against Oakland was that the CB literally ran past the ball as it was in the air, thats how far behind the ball was thrown. If he was looking, it was an easy INT.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, elogman....  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13990320 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990315 elgoman said:


Quote:





I didn't say that. I think Eli's Philly game was fantastic, albeit with some caveats. We have to remember that we played them in Week 15 and Philly had already made the playoffs by then.



Philly wasnt playing for home field advantage? Really? They coasted that game and lose out on the biggest advantage in pro football?

You are really on point this thread.


When Eli played teams we really needed to beat - not teams like late season Philly who didn't have to win - the offense was anemic. That's a caveat worth thinking about. Arizona players had to win to keep their jobs, and shut out Eli. that's why I say, while I love the Philly game, it's not convincing of anything.
Bigblue  
sxdxca : 6/13/2018 12:53 pm : link
That's not a good illustration.

Normally I wouldn't respond but in this case I must.

Here is a better illustration that relates appropriately to the situation.

Imagine you have a child, who every day he gets to play with his toys for two hours a day, which you bought him.

There is another kid who doesn't have any toys, so you say to your child your still gonna play with your toys, but only for one hour. The next hour I'm gonna let the other kid play with the toys.

Your child says, no, I either get to play with all the toys for two hours, or I dont play with them at all.

And that's exactly what Eli did. Mara is paying him 22 million a year, whether he plays two quarters or four he gets the same pay, and he said no.

The team was 2-9, mathematically eliminated from playoffs, averaging 15 points a game.

The team with Eli starting went 1-4 the rest of the way.

While it is true his eagles game he played excellent.

His last game against the Redskins he only completed 35% of his throws, passed for 130 yards, and had a 47qb rating, this is not a joke.

And I am an Eli fan, look it up yourself...

When...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 12:53 pm : link
"semantics" are used to drive home the main point you are trying to make, it is pretty damn important you have a fucking clue.

You didn't just get a couple things wrong, you willfully made shit up. Saying Geno drove the Giants down the field only to be the victim of poor protection to fumble isn't semantics, it is making up facts. He didn't drive the team towards shit and lost a fumble on a possession gifted to them by the Raiders punter.

Not only did you say Pugh silenced Mack, you then made some ridiculous comment about him signing a massive contract. Mistaking Pugh for Hart is pretty fucking hard to do on a number of levels.

Your whole point is based on the recollection of Geno's play in one game. But your recollection is shit.

You don't see a problem with credibility there? Friend.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, elogman....  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13990333 elgoman said:
Quote:


When Eli played teams we really needed to beat - not teams like late season Philly who didn't have to win - the offense was anemic. That's a caveat worth thinking about. Arizona players had to win to keep their jobs, and shut out Eli. that's why I say, while I love the Philly game, it's not convincing of anything.


1. Philly needed to keep winning to get homefield. Thats pretty damn important.
2. Arizona players had to win to keep their jobs? Buddy, you are just either braindead, a clown, or a troll. Give it up.

Philly game aint convincing of anything? I guess you know more than Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur because they referenced it many times on why Eli still has it.

Keep trying. The next time you get something right, will be your first. And when you do - trust me I will give you props for it.
But wait, lets take it a step further...  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 12:58 pm : link
Eli beat the Redskins last year in the last game - weren't the Redskins playing to keep their jobs too? I am so confused. You say one thing and when proven wrong - that doesnt matter anymore.

LOL. I am seriously just shaking my head in astonishment at this point.
To prove..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 1:05 pm : link
what a trainwreck this thread is, the fucking moron who started the thread only comments on a comparison about why his premise is shit instead of to any other comments made.

"the truth" comment should've just been a red flag that this would be a shitty thread in a long line of them by the sxdxca.
RE: Management was hypocritical  
ron mexico : 6/13/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13990319 WideRight said:
Quote:


My theory was that McAdoo was angling towards getting Eli out. So he was prefectly OK with breaking news in an insensitive, ill-conceived manner. He thought he was bigger than Eli.


why wait till we were mathematically eliminated then?

Why not take ownership of the decision?

Q: Was this weekend the first time you thought about making this move or did you think about it before then?
A: This was — had a short week last week when we knew we were out of playoff contention. We were out of the mix. That’s the time when you really have to take a look at your roster and make determinations on who you want to evaluate.


Q: You went to Jerry Reese and John Mara after you made this decision independently?
A: We’re all on the same page.


Q: Whose idea was it – do you go to them after the decision is made?
A: We’re all on the same page with the decision.




Link - ( New Window )
One thing I'll never get is the love for Geno  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/13/2018 1:12 pm : link
Geno is a quarterback disaster -- he is expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Anyone --- and I mean anyone -- who thinks Geno is just reaching for straws.
RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13990328 dep026 said:
Quote:
fumble was absolutely his fault. It was a quick pattern where he pump faked, brought the ball down and just sat in the pocket. The protection wasnt good, but he had the ball in his hands for over 3 seconds.

Indecision, the story of Geno Smith.


Again, you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about. Here's the redzone strip sack here: https://streamable.com/n0bmw

When Geno hits his drop, nobody is open, Wheeler has whiffled, and Mack is already barrelling on Geno. Geno tries a pump fake to open up space, which works as the HB gets open, but then Geno is stripped before he can throw.

Poor protection, not indecision, is why Geno was strip sacked on this play. When Wheeler, the RT, completely falls to block his man and nobody is open, the QB isn't the blame.
RE: One thing I'll never get is the love for Geno  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13990354 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Geno is a quarterback disaster -- he is expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Anyone --- and I mean anyone -- who thinks Geno is just reaching for straws.


But explain in football terms how Geno is a "quarterback disaster"? I see some fans saying this and I don't get the hate.

Whenever I ask people to show me Geno's footwork, arm, field vision, pocket presence, accuracy, anticipation -- all of which can be gleaned on film--I don't get any answers.

I understand how loyal people are to Eli, but you don't have to insult Geno or any other young QB trying to make it as a Giant to make Eli look better.
Dying..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 1:35 pm : link
on a hill that isn't worth saving is just further proof of the idiocy.

Defending Geno Smith?? Just look at gidie's post.

Sums up the pointlessness of the last three hours.
RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13990363 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990328 dep026 said:


Quote:


fumble was absolutely his fault. It was a quick pattern where he pump faked, brought the ball down and just sat in the pocket. The protection wasnt good, but he had the ball in his hands for over 3 seconds.

Indecision, the story of Geno Smith.



Again, you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about. Here's the redzone strip sack here: https://streamable.com/n0bmw

When Geno hits his drop, nobody is open, Wheeler has whiffled, and Mack is already barrelling on Geno. Geno tries a pump fake to open up space, which works as the HB gets open, but then Geno is stripped before he can throw.

Poor protection, not indecision, is why Geno was strip sacked on this play. When Wheeler, the RT, completely falls to block his man and nobody is open, the QB isn't the blame.


Ummm I said he pulled fake and he never moved one step to left or right. Video confirms that. Thanks for proving my point!!!
Here is the key Mara quote...  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 1:39 pm : link
on the Monday after the firing. Mara was asked if he and McAdoo had been on the same page about the handling of Manning.

Mara: “We were and we weren’t. Ben came up with the plan. I initially signed off on the plan. My hope had been to talk to him to try to have a little more flexibility with it.”

We were and we weren't?? Really John? You were and you weren't as the owner of the New York Football Giants for this monumental decision?

And then in an attempt to be coy Mara says he actually did sign off on the plan. But the caveat added was to follow-up with McAdoo to add more flexibility.

So in one of the biggest decisions in the history of the franchise, Mara signs off; but he thinks only to HIMSELF that more flexibility may be needed. Strangely, however, he doesn't follow up with his head coach or GM to add this so called flexibility?

This is Mara's life - running Jints Central. But he's so busy he couldn't find 5 minutes to follow-up with a call to his the management team to re-visit this critical decision? This for a man who is supposedly so precious about protecting the "Giants Way" brand - the so called class organization of the league!

What a complete lie.

At the end of the day, Mara was all in on the McAdoo/Reese plan and knew exactly what was going down. McAdoo and Reese absolutely deserved to be fired. But not with this fake blame conjured up by their duplicitous owner...
i'll  
Les in TO : 6/13/2018 1:42 pm : link
add a mic drop after bw's last post, because that nailed it. accountability starts at the top, and mara is sucking and blowing at the same time.
RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13990370 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990363 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990328 dep026 said:


Quote:


fumble was absolutely his fault. It was a quick pattern where he pump faked, brought the ball down and just sat in the pocket. The protection wasnt good, but he had the ball in his hands for over 3 seconds.

Indecision, the story of Geno Smith.



Again, you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about. Here's the redzone strip sack here: https://streamable.com/n0bmw

When Geno hits his drop, nobody is open, Wheeler has whiffled, and Mack is already barrelling on Geno. Geno tries a pump fake to open up space, which works as the HB gets open, but then Geno is stripped before he can throw.

Poor protection, not indecision, is why Geno was strip sacked on this play. When Wheeler, the RT, completely falls to block his man and nobody is open, the QB isn't the blame.



Ummm I said he pulled fake and he never moved one step to left or right. Video confirms that. Thanks for proving my point!!!


You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame

RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13990377 elgoman said:
Quote:

You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame


Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.
RE: RE: One thing I'll never get is the love for Geno  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13990365 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990354 gidiefor said:


Quote:


Geno is a quarterback disaster -- he is expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Anyone --- and I mean anyone -- who thinks Geno is just reaching for straws.



But explain in football terms how Geno is a "quarterback disaster"? I see some fans saying this and I don't get the hate.

Whenever I ask people to show me Geno's footwork, arm, field vision, pocket presence, accuracy, anticipation -- all of which can be gleaned on film--I don't get any answers.



1. Jets didnt want him.
2. No one in the offseason after the Jets got rid of him wanted him to start or give him a multi-year contract.
3. The giants had him go against Josh f'n Johnson for the backup.
4. No one in the offseason wanted him as a starter.

Morale of the story. Geno Smith is not a starting caliber in the NFL. sorry, we dont have the break down of every play he every threw a terrible pass.But here are some accuracy stats for you.

185 Yards per game started
26 TDs to 34 INTs/10 fumbles lost
58% compeltion percentage

In what f'n world is that starting material?
RE: RE: RE: One thing I'll never get is the love for Geno  
YAJ2112 : 6/13/2018 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13990390 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990365 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990354 gidiefor said:


Quote:


Geno is a quarterback disaster -- he is expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Anyone --- and I mean anyone -- who thinks Geno is just reaching for straws.



But explain in football terms how Geno is a "quarterback disaster"? I see some fans saying this and I don't get the hate.

Whenever I ask people to show me Geno's footwork, arm, field vision, pocket presence, accuracy, anticipation -- all of which can be gleaned on film--I don't get any answers.





1. Jets didnt want him.
2. No one in the offseason after the Jets got rid of him wanted him to start or give him a multi-year contract.
3. The giants had him go against Josh f'n Johnson for the backup.
4. No one in the offseason wanted him as a starter.

Morale of the story. Geno Smith is not a starting caliber in the NFL. sorry, we dont have the break down of every play he every threw a terrible pass.But here are some accuracy stats for you.

185 Yards per game started
26 TDs to 34 INTs/10 fumbles lost
58% compeltion percentage

In what f'n world is that starting material?


there you go looking at box stats again. How many almost TDs are missing from those numbers????
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13990381 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990377 elgoman said:


Quote:



You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame




Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.


You are lying by omission (or you just plain don't understand what you're talking about). You said the protection wasn't good, but ultimately blamed Geno holding the ball too long for the fumble. This is not true. Geno has no choice but to hold onto the ball when his read isn't open. Geno rightfully expects Wheeler not to whiff.

If Wheeler does whiff, and the play is over. When Wheeler whiffs and Eli is sacked, you blame Wheeler. When Wheeler whiffs and Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Big Ben are sacked, you blame Wheeler. So Wheeler is to blame for Geno's fumble.

You're intellectually dishonest and bear some kind of hatred for Geno
RE: When...  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13990338 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
"semantics" are used to drive home the main point you are trying to make, it is pretty damn important you have a fucking clue.

You didn't just get a couple things wrong, you willfully made shit up. Saying Geno drove the Giants down the field only to be the victim of poor protection to fumble isn't semantics, it is making up facts. He didn't drive the team towards shit and lost a fumble on a possession gifted to them by the Raiders punter.

Not only did you say Pugh silenced Mack, you then made some ridiculous comment about him signing a massive contract. Mistaking Pugh for Hart is pretty fucking hard to do on a number of levels.

Your whole point is based on the recollection of Geno's play in one game. But your recollection is shit.

You don't see a problem with credibility there? Friend.


I made semantic mistakes but the crux of the argument stands strong as ever.

1) The tape shows Geno was the victim of poor protection in both fumbles. Neither fumble was his fault. if you disagree, get the tape and debate it.

2) Bobby Hart, not Pugh, silenced Mack. This is a semantic issue as it doesn't change the substantive part of my argument, which is that Mack was silenced by Hart.
Oh Geno...  
Chris in Philly : 6/13/2018 2:02 pm : link
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13990400 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990381 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990377 elgoman said:


Quote:



You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame




Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.



You are lying by omission (or you just plain don't understand what you're talking about). You said the protection wasn't good, but ultimately blamed Geno holding the ball too long for the fumble. This is not true. Geno has no choice but to hold onto the ball when his read isn't open. Geno rightfully expects Wheeler not to whiff.


1. You have been proven wrong more than any poster on this thread - so using the line I dont know what I am talking about is pretty funny.
2. Geno should have thrown the ball away when first read isnt open.
3. Geno doesnt have a secure handle on the ball because he is not getting hit as he is throwing. He fumbled it while holdign the ball - very bad technique.

Keep arguing for Geno Smith. It's making my day go faster and giving me the laughs!

1 TD
2 Fumbles lost
"A near TD drive"
A phantom drive that ended in a fumble lost
200 yards against a bad defense

Yep. Incredible game.
Bobby Hart  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:04 pm : link
didnt stop shit all year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13990410 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990400 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990381 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990377 elgoman said:


Quote:



You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame




Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.



You are lying by omission (or you just plain don't understand what you're talking about). You said the protection wasn't good, but ultimately blamed Geno holding the ball too long for the fumble. This is not true. Geno has no choice but to hold onto the ball when his read isn't open. Geno rightfully expects Wheeler not to whiff.




1. You have been proven wrong more than any poster on this thread - so using the line I dont know what I am talking about is pretty funny.
2. Geno should have thrown the ball away when first read isnt open.
3. Geno doesnt have a secure handle on the ball because he is not getting hit as he is throwing. He fumbled it while holdign the ball - very bad technique.

Keep arguing for Geno Smith. It's making my day go faster and giving me the laughs!

1 TD
2 Fumbles lost
"A near TD drive"
A phantom drive that ended in a fumble lost
200 yards against a bad defense

Yep. Incredible game.
\

1. Not true. Saying I mentioned Hart rather than Pugh isn't "disproving" anything I say.
2. No, Wheeler shouldn't have whiffed and caused the Geno fumble. You and many others blame Wheeler for whiffing if Eli is under center. Anyone with a brain blames for the RT for missing his block
3. Geno's technique is fine. That's how every QB looks when they're about to throw. You don't know what you're talking about so stop talking.

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense,
I’ve said since the benching Eli saw the ineptitude  
eli4life : 6/13/2018 2:10 pm : link
Of the coach and gm and knew he was the fallguy. He knew exactly what the fallout of the benching would bring and basically said “f” it I’m going down swinging.

I’m sure Eli would be the first to admit to his port play last year and would never throw his team mates under the bus but did anyone see yesterday the spark in his eye when asked about having obj back Barkley and most importantly an improved line protecting him? That look alone said a lot.

I think we see a reinvigorated Eli Manning this season. I can’t wait for the Eli Manning finger to the rest of the league tour begins
RE: Bobby Hart  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13990411 dep026 said:
Quote:
didnt stop shit all year.


You don't even know that a RT whiffing on their block is the RT's fault, so you're not in any position to judge Hart's play. You think a QB who gets a DE slamming into him 1 sec after hitting drop step is at fault lol
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13990419 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990410 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990400 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990381 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990377 elgoman said:


Quote:



You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame




Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.



You are lying by omission (or you just plain don't understand what you're talking about). You said the protection wasn't good, but ultimately blamed Geno holding the ball too long for the fumble. This is not true. Geno has no choice but to hold onto the ball when his read isn't open. Geno rightfully expects Wheeler not to whiff.




1. You have been proven wrong more than any poster on this thread - so using the line I dont know what I am talking about is pretty funny.
2. Geno should have thrown the ball away when first read isnt open.
3. Geno doesnt have a secure handle on the ball because he is not getting hit as he is throwing. He fumbled it while holdign the ball - very bad technique.

Keep arguing for Geno Smith. It's making my day go faster and giving me the laughs!

1 TD
2 Fumbles lost
"A near TD drive"
A phantom drive that ended in a fumble lost
200 yards against a bad defense

Yep. Incredible game.

\

1. Not true. Saying I mentioned Hart rather than Pugh isn't "disproving" anything I say.
2. No, Wheeler shouldn't have whiffed and caused the Geno fumble. You and many others blame Wheeler for whiffing if Eli is under center. Anyone with a brain blames for the RT for missing his block
3. Geno's technique is fine. That's how every QB looks when they're about to throw. You don't know what you're talking about so stop talking.

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense,


Curious why you didnt bring up his QBR rating? Cause it sucked?

1 TD
2 fumbles lost
Best play was a result of a horrendous throw.
200 yards passing
red zone turnover

Yep, I dont know what I am talking about - but you sure as hell do...haha

Can you explain again how the Arizona game where they were out of the playoffs mattered but the Redskins game didnt. And how the Eagles had nothing to play for except for HOME FIELD Advantage again? I need more laughs.
RE: RE: Bobby Hart  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13990431 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990411 dep026 said:


Quote:


didnt stop shit all year.



You don't even know that a RT whiffing on their block is the RT's fault, so you're not in any position to judge Hart's play. You think a QB who gets a DE slamming into him 1 sec after hitting drop step is at fault lol


1. It was 3 seconds
2. Hart was cut BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED.
3. Hart sucks more donkey balls than Geno Smith.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13990432 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990419 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990410 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990400 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990381 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13990377 elgoman said:


Quote:



You are lying by omission. You omitted the fact Wheeler whiffed on his block, which gave Mack a free release and caused the fumble.

If Wheeler does his job and blocks Mack, Geno doesn't fumble. So you are wrong to say Geno is to blame for the fumble. Wheeler is to blame




Nope, not lying. I said the protection wasnt good either. But neither was Geno's play either.

Your 2nd point is just great analysis. If player A blocks his guy, and if Player B gets open, and if Player C throws the ball to player B, who then catches the ball - its a great play.

LOL.



You are lying by omission (or you just plain don't understand what you're talking about). You said the protection wasn't good, but ultimately blamed Geno holding the ball too long for the fumble. This is not true. Geno has no choice but to hold onto the ball when his read isn't open. Geno rightfully expects Wheeler not to whiff.




1. You have been proven wrong more than any poster on this thread - so using the line I dont know what I am talking about is pretty funny.
2. Geno should have thrown the ball away when first read isnt open.
3. Geno doesnt have a secure handle on the ball because he is not getting hit as he is throwing. He fumbled it while holdign the ball - very bad technique.

Keep arguing for Geno Smith. It's making my day go faster and giving me the laughs!

1 TD
2 Fumbles lost
"A near TD drive"
A phantom drive that ended in a fumble lost
200 yards against a bad defense

Yep. Incredible game.

\

1. Not true. Saying I mentioned Hart rather than Pugh isn't "disproving" anything I say.
2. No, Wheeler shouldn't have whiffed and caused the Geno fumble. You and many others blame Wheeler for whiffing if Eli is under center. Anyone with a brain blames for the RT for missing his block
3. Geno's technique is fine. That's how every QB looks when they're about to throw. You don't know what you're talking about so stop talking.

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense,



Curious why you didnt bring up his QBR rating? Cause it sucked?

1 TD
2 fumbles lost
Best play was a result of a horrendous throw.
200 yards passing
red zone turnover

Yep, I dont know what I am talking about - but you sure as hell do...haha

Can you explain again how the Arizona game where they were out of the playoffs mattered but the Redskins game didnt. And how the Eagles had nothing to play for except for HOME FIELD Advantage again? I need more laughs.


Nobody uses QBR. It's just ESPN bum stat. But you'll find any obscure data to fit your wrong narrative.

You can put up all the rate stats you want, the most important numbers are:

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense.

You evidently have no idea what you're talking about. You think the RT Wheeler whiffing on a block and allowing a sack = QB Geno Smith's fault. You're in over your head.

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game
If Wheeler whiffed on his man  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
then I can see the sack being Wheeler's fault, but the fumble is the ball directly leaving Smith's hand. Not sure how you can blame the fumble on Wheeler. Just because his man came through doesn't mean that the ball also goes to the ground. This has been pointed out with Eli very often.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game [/quote]
This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely.
RE: If Wheeler whiffed on his man  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13990444 Bill L said:
Quote:
then I can see the sack being Wheeler's fault, but the fumble is the ball directly leaving Smith's hand. Not sure how you can blame the fumble on Wheeler. Just because his man came through doesn't mean that the ball also goes to the ground. This has been pointed out with Eli very often.


The fumble is on Wheeler because he whiffed and allowed a sack. Geno is like any other QB. QBs routinely get strip sacked when they are into their motion and get hit. Eli routinely fumbled this way last year - and none of you blamed him. So why are you blaming Geno?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13990443 elgoman said:
Quote:


Nobody uses QBR. It's just ESPN bum stat. But you'll find any obscure data to fit your wrong narrative.

You can put up all the rate stats you want, the most important numbers are:

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense.

You evidently have no idea what you're talking about. You think the RT Wheeler whiffing on a block and allowing a sack = QB Geno Smith's fault. You're in over your head.

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game


But in the Redskins game, he led them to two TD drives and won the game. So thats more than what Geno accomplished, and oh yeah Shepard/Engram didnt even play in that game. Even more impressivE!!!!!!

Get lost buddy. Are you Geno's dad? You are all over the place in this thread and you havent even been right on one thing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13990449 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game

This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely. [/quote]

Eli didnt have EE or SS against Washington in the last game. This is fact. And he still led them to as many TDs. Even though they played ahead the whole game. Geno got a garbage time TD. Woo hoo! Geno's dad wouldnt understand this.
RE: RE: If Wheeler whiffed on his man  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13990450 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990444 Bill L said:


Quote:


then I can see the sack being Wheeler's fault, but the fumble is the ball directly leaving Smith's hand. Not sure how you can blame the fumble on Wheeler. Just because his man came through doesn't mean that the ball also goes to the ground. This has been pointed out with Eli very often.



The fumble is on Wheeler because he whiffed and allowed a sack. Geno is like any other QB. QBs routinely get strip sacked when they are into their motion and get hit. Eli routinely fumbled this way last year - and none of you blamed him. So why are you blaming Geno?
Nobody blamed Eli???? You're kidding, right?

And I simply don't buy the thesis that sack = fumble. The QB absolutely has a role in whether the ball is retained or not. You're being ridiculous, IMO.
RE: RE: If Wheeler whiffed on his man  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13990450 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990444 Bill L said:


Quote:


then I can see the sack being Wheeler's fault, but the fumble is the ball directly leaving Smith's hand. Not sure how you can blame the fumble on Wheeler. Just because his man came through doesn't mean that the ball also goes to the ground. This has been pointed out with Eli very often.



The fumble is on Wheeler because he whiffed and allowed a sack. Geno is like any other QB. QBs routinely get strip sacked when they are into their motion and get hit. Eli routinely fumbled this way last year - and none of you blamed him. So why are you blaming Geno?


Actually, a lot of morons here talked about Eli's penchant for fumbling. I don't blame Geno for the fumbles because I've stated all along it's the line.
I also wouild point out that Geno came to the Giants with a reputation  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 2:28 pm : link
established over a prolonged period, for being turnover prone. Especially at the most inopportune of times. SO, the fumble, is as much in line with his history as it is with the OL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13990449 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game

This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely. [/quote]

My argument doesn't contradict. Although Eli did play with the same talent-depleted squad (injuried), Eli's overall play--his accuracy, pocket presence, anticipation--was not good. Even if a QB has a poor supporting case, you can watch his tendencies and see if he hits certain benchmarks. Even if you go Drew Brees a poor supporting case, his accuracy and anticipation will stand out as exceptional.
I think you guys  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 6/13/2018 2:29 pm : link
are getting trolled pretty hard here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13990465 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990449 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game


This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely.


My argument doesn't contradict. Although Eli did play with the same talent-depleted squad (injuried), Eli's overall play--his accuracy, pocket presence, anticipation--was not good. Even if a QB has a poor supporting case, you can watch his tendencies and see if he hits certain benchmarks. Even if you go Drew Brees a poor supporting case, his accuracy and anticipation will stand out as exceptional. [/quote]

Eli didn’t play with the same supporting cast against Washington.

Use some facts buddy. It helps your argument.
RE: RE: RE: One thing I'll never get is the love for Geno  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:37 pm : link
In comment 13990390 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990365 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990354 gidiefor said:


Quote:


Geno is a quarterback disaster -- he is expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Anyone --- and I mean anyone -- who thinks Geno is just reaching for straws.



But explain in football terms how Geno is a "quarterback disaster"? I see some fans saying this and I don't get the hate.

Whenever I ask people to show me Geno's footwork, arm, field vision, pocket presence, accuracy, anticipation -- all of which can be gleaned on film--I don't get any answers.





1. Jets didnt want him.
2. No one in the offseason after the Jets got rid of him wanted him to start or give him a multi-year contract.
3. The giants had him go against Josh f'n Johnson for the backup.
4. No one in the offseason wanted him as a starter.

Morale of the story. Geno Smith is not a starting caliber in the NFL. sorry, we dont have the break down of every play he every threw a terrible pass.But here are some accuracy stats for you.

185 Yards per game started
26 TDs to 34 INTs/10 fumbles lost
58% compeltion percentage

In what f'n world is that starting material?


1. Jets are idiots. They signed Ryan Fitzpatrick who achieved nothing. Josh McCown, who achieved nothing. Neither Foles nor Keenum were signed. The list goes on. NFL GMs can be idiots. Lynn, the Chargers coach, signed Geno. So obviously some Jets staff did like Geno.
2. See above.
3. And Geno beat out Josh Johnson, Davis Webb before benching Eli. That says a lot about Geno, I think. It also says a lot about the other QBs
4. No one last offseason wanted Foles or Keenum as starter, yet both are starters. We already addressed these arguments. NFL GMs make mistakes all the time.

Moral of the story, NFL GMs make mistakes. Doesn't necessarily say anything about GM, just like it didn't say anything about Foles or Keenum. If Geno was so bad on the Jets, a former Jets coach wouldn't have signed him on the Chargers.


The rate stats you give are mostly games where Geno played with the worst weapons in the league. if you look at Keenum's stats before last year, his look similar.
DOn't coaches make mistakes too?  
Bill L : 6/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
Maybe that former Jets coach made one.
RE: I think you guys  
Diver_Down : 6/13/2018 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13990468 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
are getting trolled pretty hard here.


I'm thinking Elgo and sxdx are one in the same.
RE: RE: RE: Bobby Hart  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13990436 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990431 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990411 dep026 said:


Quote:


didnt stop shit all year.



You don't even know that a RT whiffing on their block is the RT's fault, so you're not in any position to judge Hart's play. You think a QB who gets a DE slamming into him 1 sec after hitting drop step is at fault lol



1. It was 3 seconds
2. Hart was cut BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED.
3. Hart sucks more donkey balls than Geno Smith.


1. Doesn't matter. When the RT whiffs and allows a sack, it's his fault. The play was set up so Geno could read that side of the field and make a play. He only didn't do so because Wheeler whiffed. If the same happens to Eli, Brees or Brady, it's Wheeler's fault.
2. So what? We're not talking about Hart before he was cut. The new staff cut Hart.
3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.
RE: DOn't coaches make mistakes too?  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13990479 Bill L said:
Quote:
Maybe that former Jets coach made one.


Maybe but dep said the Jets didn't want Geno. Fittingly then the first Jets coach that gets a HC job scoops Geno up. dep must have a monopoly on all the wrong opinions
Why are you guys even arguing with him?  
eli4life : 6/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
It’s obvious he’s trolling you. Even if he isn’t he’s defending geno and hart which means he’s an idiot buffoon moron or whatever other word you can use to describe him.

i'm not sure eli is this cold or calculating,  
japanhead : 6/13/2018 2:49 pm : link
but i kind of think him forcing his own benching, willingly, just made the coaching staff and gm look that much stupider, and, in the end, forced them out. if eli did this to make a statement (which i believe he did), and/or to force mara to jettison one of more of reese/mcadoo (not sure he's that calculating), then it was brilliant and we should all be thanking him either way...

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13990469 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990465 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990449 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game


This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely.



My argument doesn't contradict. Although Eli did play with the same talent-depleted squad (injuried), Eli's overall play--his accuracy, pocket presence, anticipation--was not good. Even if a QB has a poor supporting case, you can watch his tendencies and see if he hits certain benchmarks. Even if you go Drew Brees a poor supporting case, his accuracy and anticipation will stand out as exceptional.


Eli didn’t play with the same supporting cast against Washington.

Use some facts buddy. It helps your argument. [/quote]

Overall Eli played with the same supporting case Geno did: UDFA receivers, turnstile line and Engram.
This is really simple...the move could be  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 6/13/2018 2:59 pm : link
understood if it was to play Webb. But to play Geno Smith is absolutely ludicrous and why the fans and media reacted the way they did. If the Giants and Mara did not know that they are a lot stupider than I thought.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geno's smith  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13990451 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990443 elgoman said:


Quote:




Nobody uses QBR. It's just ESPN bum stat. But you'll find any obscure data to fit your wrong narrative.

You can put up all the rate stats you want, the most important numbers are:

89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense.

You evidently have no idea what you're talking about. You think the RT Wheeler whiffing on a block and allowing a sack = QB Geno Smith's fault. You're in over your head.

And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game



But in the Redskins game, he led them to two TD drives and won the game. So thats more than what Geno accomplished, and oh yeah Shepard/Engram didnt even play in that game. Even more impressivE!!!!!!

Get lost buddy. Are you Geno's dad? You are all over the place in this thread and you havent even been right on one thing.


The defense shut the Redskins down to 10 points. Eli didn't have anything to do with Darkwa's 75 yard TD. Eli's 2nd TD I'll give him, but it was after a Cousins INT. Overall our offense didn't play well

The only notable thing did Eli threw a pick

he defense shut down the Redskins, b
Engram didnt play in last game  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 3:04 pm : link
Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.

Again, facts. Use them.
Yeah, no  
Bramton1 : 6/13/2018 3:09 pm : link
From everything that was said, this is what I have gathered. I could be vwery wrong, or very right.

1. Mara orders McAdoo and Reese, with the season lost, to start looking some at the other QBs.

2. Reese and McAdoo get permission from Mara to start Eli in the remaining games and then pull him for one of the other QBs. While we all assume this meant Webb, we have no proof on this. Mara expects the pulling to happen based on how the game dictates it. So if it's blowout, make the change. If it's competitive, keep Eli in.

3. Instead, McAdoo and Reese pitch a plan to Eli where he will start the games and get pulled at halftime, regardless of the score.

4. Eli tells McAdoo and Reese the next day that he thinks that plan cheapens the streak, if if they plan to go to Geno or Webb regardless of the score, they might as well just start them.

5. Giants announce that Eli is benched in favor of Geno Smith. Fans go apeshit.

6. McAdoo announces that Webb will remain inactive for the game. Fans correctly assume McAdoo is trying to blame Eli for the season in an effort to save his own skin by proving how effective Geno can be in his offense.

6. Geno plays a so-so game, well at times and lousy at others. Giants lose.

7. McAdoo and Reese fired the next day.
RE: Engram didnt play in last game  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 3:09 pm : link
In comment 13990499 dep026 said:
Quote:
Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.

Again, facts. Use them.


I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bobby Hart  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13990483 elgoman said:
Quote:

3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.


we didnt play the Vikings last year. At this point, you are jsut being an ass.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Bobby Hart  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13990508 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990483 elgoman said:


Quote:



3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.



we didnt play the Vikings last year. At this point, you are jsut being an ass.


I meant 2016. Here you go: https://twitter.com/pff/status/783125968487485440?lang=en
So 2 years ago  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 3:12 pm : link
a guy had an average game, and we are going to use that to prop him up.

So now we have a Geno Smith/Bobby Hart troll.

Awesome. Hart sucked so bad he was thrown off the team before the season ended. But I am sure you have 1 billion reason (none being factully true) on why we should have kept him.
hot damn, dep  
dorgan : 6/13/2018 3:14 pm : link
you enjoy arguing with a fucking rock? Telephone poles? That's what you're engaged in.. You're talking to a fucking rock.
RE: RE: Engram didnt play in last game  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13990507 elgoman said:
Quote:
In comment 13990499 dep026 said:


Quote:


Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.

Again, facts. Use them.



I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.


You said Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington, and thats jsut false. 4 starters who played against Oakland did not play against Washington. SS and EE were the teams leading receivers and both book end tackles were out.

Facts, use them. They didnt even have close to the same type of team in those 2 respective games.
RE: hot damn, dep  
dep026 : 6/13/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13990514 dorgan said:
Quote:
you enjoy arguing with a fucking rock? Telephone poles? That's what you're engaged in.. You're talking to a fucking rock.


I am hoping exposing him to gidie, gary, or eric - they will notice he is a dupe/troll and ban him ASAP.
RE: RE: RE: Engram didnt play in last game  
elgoman : 6/13/2018 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13990515 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990507 elgoman said:


Quote:


In comment 13990499 dep026 said:


Quote:


Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.

Again, facts. Use them.



I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.



You said Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington, and thats jsut false. 4 starters who played against Oakland did not play against Washington. SS and EE were the teams leading receivers and both book end tackles were out.

Facts, use them. They didnt even have close to the same type of team in those 2 respective games.


No I didn't. You're arguing against your own strawman. I said:
"Overall Eli played with the same supporting case Geno did: UDFA receivers, turnstile line and Engram."

Overall Eli played the season with the same supporting case as Geno. That's not the same as saying "Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington".

Stop putting words in my mouth and making stuff up.
RE: Yeah, no  
sxdxca : 6/13/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13990506 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
From everything that was said, this is what I have gathered. I could be vwery wrong, or very right.

1. Mara orders McAdoo and Reese, with the season lost, to start looking some at the other QBs.

2. Reese and McAdoo get permission from Mara to start Eli in the remaining games and then pull him for one of the other QBs. While we all assume this meant Webb, we have no proof on this. Mara expects the pulling to happen based on how the game dictates it. So if it's blowout, make the change. If it's competitive, keep Eli in.

3. Instead, McAdoo and Reese pitch a plan to Eli where he will start the games and get pulled at halftime, regardless of the score.

4. Eli tells McAdoo and Reese the next day that he thinks that plan cheapens the streak, if if they plan to go to Geno or Webb regardless of the score, they might as well just start them.

5. Giants announce that Eli is benched in favor of Geno Smith. Fans go apeshit.

6. McAdoo announces that Webb will remain inactive for the game. Fans correctly assume McAdoo is trying to blame Eli for the season in an effort to save his own skin by proving how effective Geno can be in his offense.

6. Geno plays a so-so game, well at times and lousy at others. Giants lose.

7. McAdoo and Reese fired the next day.


Bramton,

I agree with everything you said except I'll make one adjustment on point #2.

Regardless of the score, at some point into the 3rd qtr Eli was going to sit, so they could see what the other qb's could do on the roster.

A few posters here have made the comment that if the Giants were blowing the other team out, then that would be the right time to sit Eli.

However this is not logical, because the Giants were only averaging 15 points per game.

I would say they had less than a 10% chance of blowing someone out, they were never going to do that.

So therefore in order to give Webb or Smith some valuable playing time, at some point in the 3rd qtr they needed to come in.

People can spin this anyway they want, but the facts are Eli Manning wasn't going to play there game.

It's his choice, and I can respect it, but he decided of his own volition to bench himself for the 1st and 2nd qtr, and willfully end his own streak.

Read the transcripts they are right there.
RE: RE: hot damn, dep  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 3:33 pm : link
In comment 13990517 dep026 said:
Quote:


I am hoping exposing him to gidie, gary, or eric - they will notice he is a dupe/troll and ban him ASAP.


The guy is taking a strange defense of Geno - definitely. I certainly can't my arms around his defense.

But I don't get this motivation to ban. Why? If you don't find his material interesting, just leave it alone. Ignore it. Instead, you keep coaxing and prolonging the debate. This is a debate website for crissakes. Do you really expect everything to be straight forward and aligned with what you think is reasonable?

This thread is a huge LOL  
crick n NC : 6/13/2018 4:00 pm : link
Good entertainment 👍
Except there is zero substance.....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 4:20 pm : link
Literally nothing has changed on this thread since the first post.
Target practice....  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 4:21 pm : link
that's about it.
Hackenburg is available...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/13/2018 4:24 pm : link
...time to kick Eli to the curb.

Britt'll back me up on this one.

SuperBowl!
More interested in who made the decision to fire Coughlin  
TMS : 6/13/2018 4:26 pm : link
and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.
RE: More interested in who made the decision to fire Coughlin  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 4:36 pm : link
In comment 13990561 TMS said:
Quote:
and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.


Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Let’s face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in ‘11.

Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didn’t shake Mara’s hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...
Mara fired the wrong guy.  
Britt in VA : 6/13/2018 4:38 pm : link
.
RE: Except there is zero substance.....  
Diver_Down : 6/13/2018 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13990554 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Literally nothing has changed on this thread since the first post.


I mentioned that is always the case with sxdx threads back on page 1.
RE: RE: More interested in who made the decision to fire Coughlin  
Giantology : 6/13/2018 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13990572 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 13990561 TMS said:


Quote:


and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.



Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Let’s face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in ‘11.

Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didn’t shake Mara’s hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...


It is amazing the work you do twisting things to fit your narrative. And it wouldn't be a bw post without dropping Jints Central.
Jints Central..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 6:10 pm : link
has pretty much morphed to just be Mara now.

Tisch is just "a passenger", Welly is dead, so it pretty much just sums up bw's misguided directive that ownership is incompetent by solely laying it on Mara now.

Such a cute, fucking saying.
RE: Mara fired the wrong guy.  
Go Terps : 6/13/2018 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13990574 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Coughlin absolutely had to go too. Reese should have gone with him.
Yep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/13/2018 6:25 pm : link
the house cleaning we saw last year came two years too late.

Coughlin, Reese and Ross all needed to go in 2015.
I would like the thank our BBI regulars  
lono801 : 6/13/2018 6:50 pm : link
For the complete dismantling of our new Geno/Hart troll...

It’s been a fantastic read. Job well done for all of you!


I still don’t think Coughlin was the problem. I see it as Reese wanted to make The Giants his team finally...

Why certain coaches were kept and some let go over the past few years...I have no idea. Maybe some coaches were in the Coughlin camp...others on Jerry’s side.

But as another BBI’er put it...let’s hope the story comes out one day...

Something started to stink when they fired Gilbride...

Just my opinion
...  
christian : 6/13/2018 7:00 pm : link
All good things come to and end. When a player is done nature usually does a good job of letting you know. Harder for a coach or front office guy, you have to rely on the record.

Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.

Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.

But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.
Forget the idiotic troll  
montanagiant : 6/13/2018 7:10 pm : link
I just want to point one thing out regarding the OP's circular logic that Eli being benched was Eli's fault because he didn't want to be benched.

Does any true fan of this team actually want a QB who agrees to being benched?

That literally has to be the silliest thing I have seen regarding this situation
It's very weird to me that Tisch catches so many stray bullets  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/13/2018 7:34 pm : link
whenever something goes wrong. He's a ghost 98% of the time, but that 2% where he actually appears is met with fire and fury even if he was just buying everyone ice cream. I can't think of one thing he's done that would justify the visceral reaction people have to him ever speaking.
RE: It's very weird to me that Tisch catches so many stray bullets  
christian : 6/13/2018 7:47 pm : link
In comment 13990664 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
whenever something goes wrong. He's a ghost 98% of the time, but that 2% where he actually appears is met with fire and fury even if he was just buying everyone ice cream. I can't think of one thing he's done that would justify the visceral reaction people have to him ever speaking.


Couldn't be that age, injury, complacency got the best of a crew who last had any success in 2011.

Had a to be boogie man Tisch jumping in for shits and giggles.
McAdoo thinking Geno gave the  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/13/2018 7:48 pm : link
Giants a better shot at winning football games than Eli is a fireable offense in it's own right.

God, the 2017 season sucked. I really don't want to rehash it.
I think "The Truth" ....  
short lease : 6/13/2018 8:01 pm : link

is still out there. Some day .....
Just to cut to the chase...  
Vinny from Danbury : 6/13/2018 8:09 pm : link
of this ridiculous thread. sxdxca = elgoman? Sure seems that way. They write the same exact nonsense, and keep trying to back each other up. Typical troll behavior...
look the problem with Geno is not his talent --  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/13/2018 8:09 pm : link
no -- the problem with Geno is what's between his ears

you can argue technique all you want -- but there plenty of evidence that technique alone is not enough to be a good QB -- if you look at his on field play -- you will see a guy who can take command of a team and play well in spurts -- but who makes the most bone head plays at critical moments that take the steam out of everyone around him and then starts downward spiral on the field

He did it on the Jets repeatedly -- he did it with the Giants in practice and on the field -- he is not an NFL caliber QB because he just doesn't have some critical factors that pros need to be winners and lead teams to victory

there is plenty of evidence meanwhile (and this also on tape) that Eli lifts the level of a teams play on the field -- he has done it repeatedly and at a championship level

you just don't place Geno on the field over Eli unless things are desperate and you have no choice. Now, I do subscribe to the McAdoo was desperate at a certain point and he wanted a more mobile QB on the field, yes I do -- but it just goes to show you how bad and one dimensional McAdoo was that we would cling in desperation to Geno when he had a QB like Eli in the fold
RE: RE: RE: More interested in who made the decision to fire Coughlin  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 8:13 pm : link
In comment 13990584 Giantology said:
Quote:
In comment 13990572 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 13990561 TMS said:


Quote:


and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.



Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Let’s face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in ‘11.

Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didn’t shake Mara’s hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...



It is amazing the work you do twisting things to fit your narrative. And it wouldn't be a bw post without dropping Jints Central.


Well, guilty sometimes.

But where here am I shaping something to fit a narrative?
RE: RE: Except there is zero substance.....  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/13/2018 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13990580 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13990554 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Literally nothing has changed on this thread since the first post.



I mentioned that is always the case with sxdx threads back on page 1.

Oh, no question - sxdx is a troll. That shouldn't get lost in the actual discussion.
RE: Bigblue  
Milton : 6/13/2018 8:23 pm : link
In comment 13990335 sxdxca said:
Quote:
Imagine you have a child, who every day he gets to play with his toys for two hours a day, which you bought him.

There is another kid who doesn't have any toys, so you say to your child your still gonna play with your toys, but only for one hour. The next hour I'm gonna let the other kid play with the toys.

Your child says, no, I either get to play with all the toys for two hours, or I dont play with them at all.
How about this instead: imagine you're on your way to a party in the Hollywood Hills, but you get the address wrong and wind up knocking on Scarlett Johansson's door instead. She is completely naked and invites you inside, admonishing you for being late as she helps you out of your clothes. And then it's off to the hot tub in her back yard, where you are greeted by Jennifer Lawrence, Megan Fox, Gal Gadot, Emilia Clarke, and Beyonce, all completely naked and passing around a doobie. As the six of them form a circle around you, Scarlett whispers in your ear, "No need to pace yourself, it's gonna be a long weekend."
Gal Gadot...  
bw in dc : 6/13/2018 8:30 pm : link
Yes, yes, and yes.
RE: McAdoo thinking Geno gave the  
ron mexico : 6/14/2018 7:16 am : link
In comment 13990680 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Giants a better shot at winning football games than Eli is a fireable offense in it's own right.

God, the 2017 season sucked. I really don't want to rehash it.


He didn't think that. He was specifically asked that question and he refused to answer it as asked.
RE: ...  
jcn56 : 6/14/2018 7:36 am : link
In comment 13990653 christian said:
Quote:
All good things come to and end. When a player is done nature usually does a good job of letting you know. Harder for a coach or front office guy, you have to rely on the record.

Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.

Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.

But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.


Agreed. I'm not sure why Giants fans felt like the end would never come for these guys, or that it would be a storybook ending. That almost never happens (save for Strahan, and that's partially because he walked).

The Giants were right to dismiss both Coughlin and Reese. They had something that wasn't working, so they went in order - fire the coach, who already had longevity beyond what the normal tenure of a coach in the NFL is, and was 70 years old. If that doesn't solve it, fire the GM, who had more than his fair share of opportunity to solve the problems and didn't.

There'll come a time for Eli as well. Might be after this season. Might be two years from now. Or, we could learn that we're two years overdue. That's not a reflection on Eli, that's life in the NFL.

None of these guys were wronged in any way. If anything, the Giants went the uber patient route and it failed them, in the name of continuity.
RE: RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 6/14/2018 9:13 am : link
In comment 13990861 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13990653 christian said:


Quote:


All good things come to and end. When a player is done nature usually does a good job of letting you know. Harder for a coach or front office guy, you have to rely on the record.

Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.

Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.

But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.



Agreed. I'm not sure why Giants fans felt like the end would never come for these guys, or that it would be a storybook ending. That almost never happens (save for Strahan, and that's partially because he walked).

The Giants were right to dismiss both Coughlin and Reese. They had something that wasn't working, so they went in order - fire the coach, who already had longevity beyond what the normal tenure of a coach in the NFL is, and was 70 years old. If that doesn't solve it, fire the GM, who had more than his fair share of opportunity to solve the problems and didn't.

There'll come a time for Eli as well. Might be after this season. Might be two years from now. Or, we could learn that we're two years overdue. That's not a reflection on Eli, that's life in the NFL.

None of these guys were wronged in any way. If anything, the Giants went the uber patient route and it failed them, in the name of continuity.


What's done is done, but I think it could be argued that Tom Coughlin should have been given a chance with the 200 million dollar defensive free agency spending spree, considering it was the defense that was costing us games in his final season.

I think one could argue that Coughlin's offense and the defense we fielded in 2015 could have been a serious contender in 2016.

I think it could be argued that we should have at least had an arrangement in place that was amicable so that Coughlin could have been bumped up to the front office in a position similar to Jacksonville, considering their success after he was hired.

But like I said, it's neither here nor there.
typo  
Britt in VA : 6/14/2018 9:14 am : link
Quote:
Coughlin's offense and the defense we fielded in 2016
RE: RE: RE: ...  
bw in dc : 6/14/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 13990905 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


I think it could be argued that we should have at least had an arrangement in place that was amicable so that Coughlin could have been bumped up to the front office in a position similar to Jacksonville, considering their success after he was hired.



That isn't a bad thought at all. TC has an exceptional eye for finding WR talent - for example. And he built that first Jags team in '96 from scratch.

The problem would have been the shadow he casts over the new coach. I could have seen that potentially making things uncomfortable with TC lurking. That actually was talked about in Jacksonville when he arrived for round 2 - would he take out Marone for himself? Didn't happen, obviously, but it was a concern...
There were three  
PaulN : 6/14/2018 1:25 pm : link
People with jobs on the line, that is the truth behind all this bullshit. There were two guys looking to put the blame on one guy to save their jobs, Reese, the ballsy bastard that he was wanted to pin the blame on Eli, he didn't draft him, McAdoo was his boy, great job picking him too, so they were in this together to save their jobs and throw our starter under the bus, any other perspective in my opinion is bullshit.

So the two backstabbers lost their jobs to the one guy with integrity. Reese was a horrible GM, he rode EA's coattails, and if this were not true why then could he never get this team back on track, only 1 good season after EA's offensive line was too old, the one season he overspent on a defense in free agency to compensate for one horrible draft after the other. This topic has been covered enough, and needs to be put to rest. The Reese fans were wrong about him, he stunk, and that is why he remains unemployed, now let's hear from the Reese will have a job in 5 minutes crowd.
RE: There were three  
Big Blue '56 : 6/14/2018 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13991198 PaulN said:
Quote:
People with jobs on the line, that is the truth behind all this bullshit. There were two guys looking to put the blame on one guy to save their jobs, Reese, the ballsy bastard that he was wanted to pin the blame on Eli, he didn't draft him, McAdoo was his boy, great job picking him too, so they were in this together to save their jobs and throw our starter under the bus, any other perspective in my opinion is bullshit.

So the two backstabbers lost their jobs to the one guy with integrity. Reese was a horrible GM, he rode EA's coattails, and if this were not true why then could he never get this team back on track, only 1 good season after EA's offensive line was too old, the one season he overspent on a defense in free agency to compensate for one horrible draft after the other. This topic has been covered enough, and needs to be put to rest. The Reese fans were wrong about him, he stunk, and that is why he remains unemployed, now let's hear from the Reese will have a job in 5 minutes crowd.


He did NOT ride EA’s coattails, unless you consider the no-brainer that was Eli, a coattail. Otherwise, whatever draft success EA had was largely due to hiring Reese in 2003(?) as his chief scout, imv. EA was a mediocre, AT BEST, GM. Reese had his faults and screwed the pooch more than not his last bunch of years(injuries notwithstanding), but a coattail rider of EA. Hardly
Accorsi was about an average + GM...  
bw in dc : 6/14/2018 2:44 pm : link
Eli is his legacy. Plus, he was better with his later drafts than the early ones. See Osi, Jacobs, Tuck, Snee, etc.

And without Eli, Reese loses his job much earlier. He was an average - at best - GM. So he did ride Accorsi's coattails as far as I'm concerned.



RE: RE: RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/14/2018 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13990905 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


I think it could be argued that we should have at least had an arrangement in place that was amicable so that Coughlin could have been bumped up to the front office in a position similar to Jacksonville, considering their success after he was hired.

But like I said, it's neither here nor there.


This sort of thing assumes Coughlin wanted to stay here if he wasn't coaching. Nothing about him indicates he would have accepted having the job taken from him to kick upstairs.
RE: There were three  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/14/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13991198 PaulN said:
Quote:
People with jobs on the line, that is the truth behind all this bullshit. There were two guys looking to put the blame on one guy to save their jobs, Reese, the ballsy bastard that he was wanted to pin the blame on Eli, he didn't draft him, McAdoo was his boy, great job picking him too, so they were in this together to save their jobs and throw our starter under the bus, any other perspective in my opinion is bullshit.

So the two backstabbers lost their jobs to the one guy with integrity. Reese was a horrible GM, he rode EA's coattails, and if this were not true why then could he never get this team back on track, only 1 good season after EA's offensive line was too old, the one season he overspent on a defense in free agency to compensate for one horrible draft after the other. This topic has been covered enough, and needs to be put to rest. The Reese fans were wrong about him, he stunk, and that is why he remains unemployed, now let's hear from the Reese will have a job in 5 minutes crowd.


There are some junk takes in here. Also, find any source that McAdoo was Reese's coach. I bet you can't, because that wasn't the case.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 6/14/2018 6:41 pm : link
In comment 13991335 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13990905 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




I think it could be argued that we should have at least had an arrangement in place that was amicable so that Coughlin could have been bumped up to the front office in a position similar to Jacksonville, considering their success after he was hired.

But like I said, it's neither here nor there.



This sort of thing assumes Coughlin wanted to stay here if he wasn't coaching. Nothing about him indicates he would have accepted having the job taken from him to kick upstairs.


This is assuming Coughlin would ever willingly give up the reigns and move upstairs. He's not that type of guy -- which is a great quality and why he succeeded.

He only opted for the front office gig when it was clear he wasn't going to ever be a head coach again.

The charade it wasn't going to end with hurt feelings for everyone is Mara's worst mistake. Reese, Coughlin and Manning all are proud guys with 2 rings and none of them were or will go out without a fight.
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