This has been a hot topic of debate on this board, and amongst Giant fans for some time.
So I decided to research the topic, by getting to the bottom of this, and going back to the original manuscripts from November of 2017 when this all went down.
Here are some direct quotes from John Mara himself,
and I quote...
"The point was we did not want him on the bench. We wanted him to start the game and play some portion of the game and at some point work the other guys in. Again, it was his decision, which I completely respect, to go with."
"Hes got to play a meaningful part of the game, whether that was half or three quarters or whatever."
"But what I did not expect, and this is my fault, I was probably nave, I did not expect Eli to react by saying, Go ahead and start the other guys. And again, especially after speaking to him today, I completely understand that. But that took me by surprise a little bit and, yeah, maybe I would have handled that a little bit different."
"Were 2-9. Were 2-9, okay? Im embarrassed about that. Nobodys doing a good job."
"I did, I did have some pause, but then having talked with Jerry about it and accepted the fact that Eli had slept on it overnight and had time to think about it. He and I texted each other, I wanted to talk to him over the phone, but he preferred to do it face to face because I couldnt get here until today. So yeah, it did give me some pause, but once I realized that he had slept on it overnight and that was his decision, we went ahead with it."
So what did we learn?
While it is true that the Giants benched Eli Manning for the 3rd and 4th quarter, they did not bench him for the 1st and 2nd quarter.
Mara, Reese and management, wanted him starting, they did not want him on the bench, they wanted him keeping his streak alive, and playing a meaningful part of the game.
As Mara said, it was Eli's decision, and he made this decision after sleeping on it all night, this was not a rash decision.
Therefore it was Eli, and Eli Manning alone who willfully benched himself for the 1st half.
It was Eli Manning, who by his own free will and choice ended his own streak.
I believe he let or allowed his emotions to blind him, to the point where his feelings consumed him so intensely that he ended his own streak.
Eli was being paid 21 million dollars, all he had to do was play the first half, let the other guys come in, and none of that media firestorm would have happened.
Mcadoo and Reese would have been let go anyway at the end of the year, and Eli would have kept his steak alive.
But somehow the media, and some of the fanbase has spun this that the Giants are the ones who ended Eli Manning's streak, and that is not the truth.
So down the road, if and when this topic comes up, it was Eli Manning, and Eli alone, who willfully ended his own streak, and benched himself for the first half.
Hope this helps...
I'm thinking Elgo and sxdx are one in the same.
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In comment 13990411 dep026 said:
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didnt stop shit all year.
You don't even know that a RT whiffing on their block is the RT's fault, so you're not in any position to judge Hart's play. You think a QB who gets a DE slamming into him 1 sec after hitting drop step is at fault lol
1. It was 3 seconds
2. Hart was cut BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED.
3. Hart sucks more donkey balls than Geno Smith.
1. Doesn't matter. When the RT whiffs and allows a sack, it's his fault. The play was set up so Geno could read that side of the field and make a play. He only didn't do so because Wheeler whiffed. If the same happens to Eli, Brees or Brady, it's Wheeler's fault.
2. So what? We're not talking about Hart before he was cut. The new staff cut Hart.
3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.
Maybe but dep said the Jets didn't want Geno. Fittingly then the first Jets coach that gets a HC job scoops Geno up. dep must have a monopoly on all the wrong opinions
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In comment 13990449 Bill L said:
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In comment 13990443 elgoman said:...
And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game
This is another area where I think you lack credibility. You say Geno played well because you have to take into account the supporting cast. Eli had the exact same cast and yet you say he played poorly. Your first argument undercuts your second statement completely.
My argument doesn't contradict. Although Eli did play with the same talent-depleted squad (injuried), Eli's overall play--his accuracy, pocket presence, anticipation--was not good. Even if a QB has a poor supporting case, you can watch his tendencies and see if he hits certain benchmarks. Even if you go Drew Brees a poor supporting case, his accuracy and anticipation will stand out as exceptional.
Eli didnt play with the same supporting cast against Washington.
Use some facts buddy. It helps your argument. [/quote]
Overall Eli played with the same supporting case Geno did: UDFA receivers, turnstile line and Engram.
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Nobody uses QBR. It's just ESPN bum stat. But you'll find any obscure data to fit your wrong narrative.
You can put up all the rate stats you want, the most important numbers are:
89 QB rating, 80+ PFF rating, 2 TD drives, almost a 3rd. A good showing with a piss poor offense.
You evidently have no idea what you're talking about. You think the RT Wheeler whiffing on a block and allowing a sack = QB Geno Smith's fault. You're in over your head.
And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say the Redskins game didn't matter. The Redskins were playing for their jobs, so the game mattered. Arizona mattered too. Eli didn't play well in either game
But in the Redskins game, he led them to two TD drives and won the game. So thats more than what Geno accomplished, and oh yeah Shepard/Engram didnt even play in that game. Even more impressivE!!!!!!
Get lost buddy. Are you Geno's dad? You are all over the place in this thread and you havent even been right on one thing.
The defense shut the Redskins down to 10 points. Eli didn't have anything to do with Darkwa's 75 yard TD. Eli's 2nd TD I'll give him, but it was after a Cousins INT. Overall our offense didn't play well
The only notable thing did Eli threw a pick
he defense shut down the Redskins, b
Again, facts. Use them.
1. Mara orders McAdoo and Reese, with the season lost, to start looking some at the other QBs.
2. Reese and McAdoo get permission from Mara to start Eli in the remaining games and then pull him for one of the other QBs. While we all assume this meant Webb, we have no proof on this. Mara expects the pulling to happen based on how the game dictates it. So if it's blowout, make the change. If it's competitive, keep Eli in.
3. Instead, McAdoo and Reese pitch a plan to Eli where he will start the games and get pulled at halftime, regardless of the score.
4. Eli tells McAdoo and Reese the next day that he thinks that plan cheapens the streak, if if they plan to go to Geno or Webb regardless of the score, they might as well just start them.
5. Giants announce that Eli is benched in favor of Geno Smith. Fans go apeshit.
6. McAdoo announces that Webb will remain inactive for the game. Fans correctly assume McAdoo is trying to blame Eli for the season in an effort to save his own skin by proving how effective Geno can be in his offense.
6. Geno plays a so-so game, well at times and lousy at others. Giants lose.
7. McAdoo and Reese fired the next day.
Again, facts. Use them.
I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.
3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.
we didnt play the Vikings last year. At this point, you are jsut being an ass.
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3. Hart has up-and-down performances. Against the Vikings last year, PFF rated him 77.2, which is a decent grade.
we didnt play the Vikings last year. At this point, you are jsut being an ass.
I meant 2016. Here you go: https://twitter.com/pff/status/783125968487485440?lang=en
So now we have a Geno Smith/Bobby Hart troll.
Awesome. Hart sucked so bad he was thrown off the team before the season ended. But I am sure you have 1 billion reason (none being factully true) on why we should have kept him.
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Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.
Again, facts. Use them.
I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.
You said Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington, and thats jsut false. 4 starters who played against Oakland did not play against Washington. SS and EE were the teams leading receivers and both book end tackles were out.
Facts, use them. They didnt even have close to the same type of team in those 2 respective games.
I am hoping exposing him to gidie, gary, or eric - they will notice he is a dupe/troll and ban him ASAP.
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In comment 13990499 dep026 said:
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Nor did flowers or Khalil Mack neutralizer Bobby hart.
Again, facts. Use them.
I didn't say any of the above played in the last game. Stop making things up to cover for the fact you've been proven wrong time and time again. You think RTs who give up sacks aren't to blame, except when they give up sacks to Eli. Geno was so loathed by the Jets his former coach signed him to the Chargers. The list of your asinine, unfounded statements are endless.
You said Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington, and thats jsut false. 4 starters who played against Oakland did not play against Washington. SS and EE were the teams leading receivers and both book end tackles were out.
Facts, use them. They didnt even have close to the same type of team in those 2 respective games.
No I didn't. You're arguing against your own strawman. I said:
"Overall Eli played with the same supporting case Geno did: UDFA receivers, turnstile line and Engram."
Overall Eli played the season with the same supporting case as Geno. That's not the same as saying "Smith played with the same type of players as Eli did against Washington".
Stop putting words in my mouth and making stuff up.
1. Mara orders McAdoo and Reese, with the season lost, to start looking some at the other QBs.
2. Reese and McAdoo get permission from Mara to start Eli in the remaining games and then pull him for one of the other QBs. While we all assume this meant Webb, we have no proof on this. Mara expects the pulling to happen based on how the game dictates it. So if it's blowout, make the change. If it's competitive, keep Eli in.
3. Instead, McAdoo and Reese pitch a plan to Eli where he will start the games and get pulled at halftime, regardless of the score.
4. Eli tells McAdoo and Reese the next day that he thinks that plan cheapens the streak, if if they plan to go to Geno or Webb regardless of the score, they might as well just start them.
5. Giants announce that Eli is benched in favor of Geno Smith. Fans go apeshit.
6. McAdoo announces that Webb will remain inactive for the game. Fans correctly assume McAdoo is trying to blame Eli for the season in an effort to save his own skin by proving how effective Geno can be in his offense.
6. Geno plays a so-so game, well at times and lousy at others. Giants lose.
7. McAdoo and Reese fired the next day.
Bramton,
I agree with everything you said except I'll make one adjustment on point #2.
Regardless of the score, at some point into the 3rd qtr Eli was going to sit, so they could see what the other qb's could do on the roster.
A few posters here have made the comment that if the Giants were blowing the other team out, then that would be the right time to sit Eli.
However this is not logical, because the Giants were only averaging 15 points per game.
I would say they had less than a 10% chance of blowing someone out, they were never going to do that.
So therefore in order to give Webb or Smith some valuable playing time, at some point in the 3rd qtr they needed to come in.
People can spin this anyway they want, but the facts are Eli Manning wasn't going to play there game.
It's his choice, and I can respect it, but he decided of his own volition to bench himself for the 1st and 2nd qtr, and willfully end his own streak.
Read the transcripts they are right there.
I am hoping exposing him to gidie, gary, or eric - they will notice he is a dupe/troll and ban him ASAP.
The guy is taking a strange defense of Geno - definitely. I certainly can't my arms around his defense.
But I don't get this motivation to ban. Why? If you don't find his material interesting, just leave it alone. Ignore it. Instead, you keep coaxing and prolonging the debate. This is a debate website for crissakes. Do you really expect everything to be straight forward and aligned with what you think is reasonable?
Britt'll back me up on this one.
SuperBowl!
Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Lets face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in 11.
Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didnt shake Maras hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...
I mentioned that is always the case with sxdx threads back on page 1.
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and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.
Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Lets face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in 11.
Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didnt shake Maras hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...
It is amazing the work you do twisting things to fit your narrative. And it wouldn't be a bw post without dropping Jints Central.
Tisch is just "a passenger", Welly is dead, so it pretty much just sums up bw's misguided directive that ownership is incompetent by solely laying it on Mara now.
Such a cute, fucking saying.
Coughlin absolutely had to go too. Reese should have gone with him.
Coughlin, Reese and Ross all needed to go in 2015.
Its been a fantastic read. Job well done for all of you!
I still dont think Coughlin was the problem. I see it as Reese wanted to make The Giants his team finally...
Why certain coaches were kept and some let go over the past few years...I have no idea. Maybe some coaches were in the Coughlin camp...others on Jerrys side.
But as another BBIer put it...lets hope the story comes out one day...
Something started to stink when they fired Gilbride...
Just my opinion
Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.
Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.
But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.
Does any true fan of this team actually want a QB who agrees to being benched?
That literally has to be the silliest thing I have seen regarding this situation
Couldn't be that age, injury, complacency got the best of a crew who last had any success in 2011.
Had a to be boogie man Tisch jumping in for shits and giggles.
God, the 2017 season sucked. I really don't want to rehash it.
is still out there. Some day .....
you can argue technique all you want -- but there plenty of evidence that technique alone is not enough to be a good QB -- if you look at his on field play -- you will see a guy who can take command of a team and play well in spurts -- but who makes the most bone head plays at critical moments that take the steam out of everyone around him and then starts downward spiral on the field
He did it on the Jets repeatedly -- he did it with the Giants in practice and on the field -- he is not an NFL caliber QB because he just doesn't have some critical factors that pros need to be winners and lead teams to victory
there is plenty of evidence meanwhile (and this also on tape) that Eli lifts the level of a teams play on the field -- he has done it repeatedly and at a championship level
you just don't place Geno on the field over Eli unless things are desperate and you have no choice. Now, I do subscribe to the McAdoo was desperate at a certain point and he wanted a more mobile QB on the field, yes I do -- but it just goes to show you how bad and one dimensional McAdoo was that we would cling in desperation to Geno when he had a QB like Eli in the fold
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In comment 13990561 TMS said:
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and keep Reese and Ross. Think the Mara"s caved to Tisch and the league Somebody will write a book and we will find out the truth on this sooner than later.
Tisch is largely a passenger at Jints Central. So Mara did this solo. Lets face it, Coughlin lost his equity with four straight seasons of no playoffs. A change was overdue, especially if you factor in the serendipity that happened winning it all in 11.
Remember the infamous snub at the press conference when Coughlin didnt shake Maras hand? That summed it up right there - all Mara. And Coughlin knew it...
It is amazing the work you do twisting things to fit your narrative. And it wouldn't be a bw post without dropping Jints Central.
Well, guilty sometimes.
But where here am I shaping something to fit a narrative?
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Literally nothing has changed on this thread since the first post.
I mentioned that is always the case with sxdx threads back on page 1.
Oh, no question - sxdx is a troll. That shouldn't get lost in the actual discussion.
There is another kid who doesn't have any toys, so you say to your child your still gonna play with your toys, but only for one hour. The next hour I'm gonna let the other kid play with the toys.
Your child says, no, I either get to play with all the toys for two hours, or I dont play with them at all.
God, the 2017 season sucked. I really don't want to rehash it.
He didn't think that. He was specifically asked that question and he refused to answer it as asked.
Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.
Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.
But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.
Agreed. I'm not sure why Giants fans felt like the end would never come for these guys, or that it would be a storybook ending. That almost never happens (save for Strahan, and that's partially because he walked).
The Giants were right to dismiss both Coughlin and Reese. They had something that wasn't working, so they went in order - fire the coach, who already had longevity beyond what the normal tenure of a coach in the NFL is, and was 70 years old. If that doesn't solve it, fire the GM, who had more than his fair share of opportunity to solve the problems and didn't.
There'll come a time for Eli as well. Might be after this season. Might be two years from now. Or, we could learn that we're two years overdue. That's not a reflection on Eli, that's life in the NFL.
None of these guys were wronged in any way. If anything, the Giants went the uber patient route and it failed them, in the name of continuity.
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All good things come to and end. When a player is done nature usually does a good job of letting you know. Harder for a coach or front office guy, you have to rely on the record.
Little Bill is the only coach to ever when consecutive Super Bowls more than 3 years apart, and during that "down" swing he went to two others.
Coughlin bouncing back and getting a ring after 4 uncompetitive years would have been unprecedented. At close to 70 it would have been a miracle.
But guys like him and Eli aren't going down without a fight. The corner has to throw in the towel for guys like them. I'm glad Gettleman and Shurmur seem like the kind who can make that tough call.
Agreed. I'm not sure why Giants fans felt like the end would never come for these guys, or that it would be a storybook ending. That almost never happens (save for Strahan, and that's partially because he walked).
The Giants were right to dismiss both Coughlin and Reese. They had something that wasn't working, so they went in order - fire the coach, who already had longevity beyond what the normal tenure of a coach in the NFL is, and was 70 years old. If that doesn't solve it, fire the GM, who had more than his fair share of opportunity to solve the problems and didn't.
There'll come a time for Eli as well. Might be after this season. Might be two years from now. Or, we could learn that we're two years overdue. That's not a reflection on Eli, that's life in the NFL.
None of these guys were wronged in any way. If anything, the Giants went the uber patient route and it failed them, in the name of continuity.
What's done is done, but I think it could be argued that Tom Coughlin should have been given a chance with the 200 million dollar defensive free agency spending spree, considering it was the defense that was costing us games in his final season.
I think one could argue that Coughlin's offense and the defense we fielded in 2015 could have been a serious contender in 2016.
I think it could be argued that we should have at least had an arrangement in place that was amicable so that Coughlin could have been bumped up to the front office in a position similar to Jacksonville, considering their success after he was hired.
But like I said, it's neither here nor there.