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Does Giants hyped defensive coordinator have enough weapons?

Tony in Tampa : 6/14/2018 10:04 am
This article was mentioned in the Thursday read but I felt it needed to be called out.

Schwartz is being a bit of an alarmist here but I do agree that the possibility of not having much of a pass rush without a blitz is a growing concern.
Outside of Vernon we just don’t appear to have the personnel who are consistent in providing one on one pressure. On paper, the O appears to be in much better shape than the D

“It is essential Lorenzo Carter, another third-round pick, contribute immediately with pressure as a long-armed outside linebacker. If the Giants do not hit on Carter — a big factor in Georgia’s defense in 2017 — they are in trouble”

Does Giants hyped defensive coordinator have enough weapons? - ( New Window )
He raises a good point  
gmenatlarge : 6/14/2018 10:10 am : link
where is some sort of a pass rush coming from besides OV, a rookie Carter and exactly where else????
I tend to agree  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/14/2018 10:11 am : link
the Pass Rush is something I am concerned about.

Bechter has a rep for dialing up descent blitzes for pressure, so its kind of a crap shoot.
if Eli Apple steps up  
Giantsfan79 : 6/14/2018 10:19 am : link
coverage sacks could be more of a thing. Keep in mind plenty of teams have made deep playoff runs with a middle of the pack pass rush.
It can be argued that our D personnel  
Big Blue '56 : 6/14/2018 10:21 am : link
is better than what the Cards fielded, imv
Valid concern this year  
mrvax : 6/14/2018 10:21 am : link
and may take a while to figure out.
Pass rush wasn't great last year either.  
Heisenberg : 6/14/2018 10:28 am : link
It's a valid concern.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/14/2018 10:29 am : link
In a 3-4 defense, the pass rush usually comes from the linebackers.

That said, they've been gushing about B.J. Hill.
Run Defense Should be Good...  
Capt. Don : 6/14/2018 10:30 am : link
I worry about pass rush and CB depth.
I wonder how much he'll use Collins as a blitzer  
robbieballs2003 : 6/14/2018 10:37 am : link
.
i'm optimistic and won't it be fun to watch us in  
gtt350 : 6/14/2018 10:41 am : link
a 3-4 . The rush coming from everywhere and possibly everyone. I like it
Betcher said  
joeinpa : 6/14/2018 10:42 am : link
"The success of the defense depends upon guys winning individual match ups. "

Nothing new here. Those thinking that he will somehow scheme to create pressure are being very optimistic.

His system has been successful l, but it always comes down to talent

Does he have the talent? We ll find out.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/14/2018 10:45 am : link
He's going to have to find ways to generate pressure but I think he will. How much Carter can contribute in year one is going to be a big key.

We also desperately need Vernon to be the guy we paid him to be. I think he'll have his best year here this year if he can stay healthy. Bettcher will utilize him properly.
I think he has a pro bowl caliber  
AnyoneButPhilly : 6/14/2018 10:55 am : link
player at every level of play. Depth in the secondary is a huge concern if the injury big hits like it seems to always do
"hyped defensive coordinator" ??  
ZogZerg : 6/14/2018 11:16 am : link
By whom? By Schwartz?

These guys love making statements up and then writing about them.
I think "hyped" is fair...  
FThomas : 6/14/2018 11:25 am : link
Remember this guys wasn't expected to shake loose and was considered a hot commodity. I think we're lucky to have him (let's hope).
Its more a the sum of its parts  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 11:50 am : link
And 'set piece plays' than freelance and rely on an outstanding player.

Of course. Every team wants that one player....but...

Look at the front 3: hill can probably stop the run single gap AND rush and move a bit. Tomlison can stop the run in one gap and rush and move a little bit. Damon Harrison is a beast and can be a disruptor in this system.

All the olbs can pass rush from any gap as set piece moves, manufactured opportunity situations,

the ilbs can disrupt the pass a little or blitz,

all the safeties can blitz assuming one ILB can cover during that one play.

Not worried.
Ogletree and maybe carter  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 12:01 pm : link
If these guys show PD chops that makes the safety blitz less risky. In years past the safety blitz was very risky because we didn't have that skill at lb.

There is also legit size in some of the olb players. Enough size to create true multiplicity in that they can hit an OT or og hard enough once in a while to create an open gap for (front three... Or that safety of the ILB?) Another player.
To be fair  
Tony in Tampa : 6/14/2018 12:04 pm : link
nothing says our pass rush would be any better if we had stayed as a 4-3 and kept JPP
As betch alluded to  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 12:07 pm : link
Even if it's a simple switch back to 4/3 at the snap. Which olb is de? Which side, end or interior gap will he deploy to?

We know, they don't. Simple for us...crazy for them.

And that's the vanilla version.
It's a very fair concern but  
arniefez : 6/14/2018 12:07 pm : link
a 3-4 pass rush is very different than a 4-3 pass rush. The DE's are often not the primary pass rushers. The OLB's are in a lot of cases.
The problem is that when you rely on pressure to generate  
Ira : 6/14/2018 12:13 pm : link
your pass rush, you're more vulnerable to big plays if the other team succeeds in picking up the blitz.
Or this  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 12:15 pm : link
Hill outside shoulder the OT stringside between OT and TE .

Snacks Square in the strongside A gap.

Tomlinson outside shoulder weak side OT.

Blitz two through weakside A gap. One to hold up that guard the other is free untouched as center must go after snacks.
RE: if Eli Apple steps up  
EricJ : 6/14/2018 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13990972 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
coverage sacks could be more of a thing. Keep in mind plenty of teams have made deep playoff runs with a middle of the pack pass rush.


This is not about him "stepping up". The guy simply is not a good cover corner. He is a good tackler. Eli has never covered well in college or in the NFL. I highly doubt that in this one off season he will break his old bad footwork habits and his lack of ball awareness.
I think Martin is a name to watch  
adamg : 6/14/2018 12:19 pm : link
Maybe Okwara steps up this year in a new scheme.
Ira  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 12:19 pm : link
If the 'blitz' is a 280lb OLB, that's not so easy to pick off with a running back, for example.

If the blitz is a safety, let's see how Carter runs.. Or ogletree, maybe they get the int.

The multiplicity up front enables all that to be much more varied in how it's implemented. Ergo, harder to pick up.
RE: if Eli Apple steps up  
Tony in Tampa : 6/14/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13990972 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
coverage sacks could be more of a thing. Keep in mind plenty of teams have made deep playoff runs with a middle of the pack pass rush.

I think coverage sacks are the key. If the Giants feel that from the non-blitz pass defense standpoint, if the percentage of times the DL and edge rushers flat out beat a blocker to the QB may fall then the offset is bringing in as much DB talent they can find so as to increase the percentage of time that the QB will have to hold on to the ball too long for a sack or eat it.
Bettcher  
Archer : 6/14/2018 12:37 pm : link
I do not believe that the Giants defense can be successful without pressure.


Bettcher relies more on an attaching defense than I have seen in a long time.

His schemes are reminiscent of Buddy Ryan's defense.

Bettcher is very creative. He does a great job of concealing the defensive schemes. In watching some video of his defense it was amazing to see how he can be aggressive, yet, every player is in position.

The pressure comes from all over. The line, the linebackers, safeties, and corners.

If the pressure does not get there, the Giants will give up a lot of big plays.
This defense will likely finish "middle of the pack" or a bit worse  
SGMen : 6/14/2018 1:17 pm : link
First and foremost, this is a new scheme so it will take some time to get alignments, formations and such in order. I'd say by game 4 guys will be understanding and by the break we'll "fix up" any of the regular issues.

Second, as much as I believe BJ Hill, Carter, McIntosh, and such all have great potential they are still rookies. The preseason will be quite telling.

I just don't see us generating a consistent pass rush. Let hope Vernon has a "career" year and the young guys all get better as the season goes along.

I'm praying we STUN the Jags on opening day in our house and then go down to Dallas and pull off another miracle. We need a good start cause we have a tough, tough schedule, IMHO.
RE: The problem is that when you rely on pressure to generate  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/14/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13991137 Ira said:
Quote:
your pass rush, you're more vulnerable to big plays if the other team succeeds in picking up the blitz.

In a 3-4, you can send someone on a blitz every play and still have the same coverage as a 4-3 on a standard 4-man rush. The difference (and advantage) is that extra blitzer can come from anywhere.
As much as most BBI'ers love the Barkley selection  
GeofromNJ : 6/14/2018 1:58 pm : link
and those who don't wanted a quarterback, my first choice was Bradley Chubb. I think he's going to be a bigger difference maker on defense than Barkley on offense.
And Chubb..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/14/2018 2:01 pm : link
will have that impact in a 4-3 defense.

RE: if Eli Apple steps up  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/14/2018 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13990972 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
coverage sacks could be more of a thing.


That is a tremendous ask in the modern nfl.
the pass rush  
msh : 6/14/2018 3:43 pm : link
is no longer solely coming from the DE's it will mostly come from the LBers so ogletree,goodson,martin and carter will all providing the passrush

they are no longer relying solely on jpp and vernon as they did in the fulltime 4-3. they will be expecting that 3 man front to get pressure and make coverage sacks as well.

he will also bring DB and safety blitzes so collins and company will get some sacks too

they will sometimes stay in the 4-3 under this new system so when that happens it will be the guys who line up and 4-3 ends job to rush which will likely be vernon,martin and tomlinson for the most part possibly hill and mcintosh once they get inclimated to the defence later in the year as well

its this switching of fronts and schemes that will generate more sacks and pressures. as the opposing offence wont know who is in coverage,who is rushing or if that guy in front of them will be the guy they need to block or not until the ball is snapped. it will be harder to identify guys to double team as a result 1 on 1 is an easier battle for them to win than it would have been

its this they intend to exploit to create matchup battles they believe they can win,and look to create confusion to exploit in the offences schemes its what made arizona a top 10 defence and less predictable than the giants where the last few years it will likely mean less individual sacks but a better number of total sacks

the old scheme got sacks on 1st and second down its third down where they need more,ones that halt a drive and give the giants the ball back. they do that they would be better even with less total sacks, its about getting them off the field and the offence back out there,barkley should help as well as it should mean less 3 and outs too giving them fresher legs and less snaps to deal with per game (in theory)
All that plus the prospect of suddenly seeing  
idiotsavant : 6/14/2018 6:06 pm : link
Ogletree or Carter in a zone PD situation - ball in hand.

And Collins blasting someone down at the line, or making a sack.

Hill or Tomlinson to 4/3 end for one play as Wynn or McKenzie goes to skinny interior rusher.

It's endless and will depend on what each player can do and who memorizes the sets best.
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