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Can the Giants Transition Into a New Era -- The Ringer

mikeinbloomfield : 6/20/2018 9:16 am
Decent article speculating why Gettleman and crew took Barkley over a QB. An interesting point he makes is that one reason could be that they didn't want to waste high-money investments on the defensive side waiting for a rookie QB to be ready.

Another good point he brings up is that the NFC is loaded, and going for it with a slightly better than average team may not be the best play in this environment.

The Beckham situation may blow the whole thing up. Had they taken a QB, they might have set themselves up to pay Beckham because their QB was on a rookie deal.
Can the Giants Transition Into a New Era While Clinging to Their Past? - ( New Window )
I truly believe Eli will thrive in this new environment  
Big Blue '56 : 6/20/2018 9:22 am : link
with the tools he has, the options he will enjoy. That said, I think the addition of Shurmur as O playcaller will be huge and that Webb/Lauletta will do very well under his aegis if called upon. It would be troubling to this fan, if Shurmur gave up his PC duties as he appears to be an instinctive PCer who can change up on the fly
They took Barkley because  
Alwaysblue22 : 6/20/2018 9:44 am : link
After the combines he was the highest graded player on most Teams boards. In Fact the G-men gave him a PERFECT score....case closed. You don't pass up the highest graded player just for the sake of taking another possible "franchise" QB who would start out as another clip board holder behind Eli. The talk that the Giants must take a QB to be a successor to Eli was just plain stupid when Barkley was sitting there at #2. It was a NO-BRAINIER. Besides the Giants got a young capable QB later in the Draft.There is no guarantee that any QB will become a "FRANCHISE" QB. Tom Brady was a SIXTH ROUND draft pick.
They can pay Beckham regardless of what  
UConn4523 : 6/20/2018 9:52 am : link
our QB is making. I really dont understand that comment.
I agree the NFC is loaded  
The_Boss : 6/20/2018 10:11 am : link
The brain trust believes this is a win now situation. I hope theyre correct because I dont believe this team is ultimately better than Philly, GB, Minnesota, LA, or New Orleans. That leaves one playoff spot in the NFC open and I would think Atlanta, Carolina, Dallas, and perhaps Seattle/Detroit are the NYGs main competition.
RE: They can pay Beckham regardless of what  
mikeinbloomfield : 6/20/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 13995019 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
our QB is making. I really dont understand that comment.


Wouldn't it be easier to pay Beckham (or anyone else) if our QB was on a rookie deal and therefore not as big a cap hit? This assumes Eli is totally off the books, obviously, which wouldn't happen right away.
RE: They can pay Beckham regardless of what  
djstat : 6/20/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 13995019 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
our QB is making. I really dont understand that comment.
People are stupid and do not understand the cap.
RE: They took Barkley because  
Sonic Youth : 6/20/2018 10:23 am : link
In comment 13995006 Alwaysblue22 said:
Quote:
After the combines he was the highest graded player on most Teams boards. In Fact the G-men gave him a PERFECT score....case closed. You don't pass up the highest graded player just for the sake of taking another possible "franchise" QB who would start out as another clip board holder behind Eli. The talk that the Giants must take a QB to be a successor to Eli was just plain stupid when Barkley was sitting there at #2. It was a NO-BRAINIER. Besides the Giants got a young capable QB later in the Draft.There is no guarantee that any QB will become a "FRANCHISE" QB. Tom Brady was a SIXTH ROUND draft pick.
This post is awful
RE: RE: They took Barkley because  
lax counsel : 6/20/2018 10:41 am : link
In comment 13995082 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
In comment 13995006 Alwaysblue22 said:


Quote:


After the combines he was the highest graded player on most Teams boards. In Fact the G-men gave him a PERFECT score....case closed. You don't pass up the highest graded player just for the sake of taking another possible "franchise" QB who would start out as another clip board holder behind Eli. The talk that the Giants must take a QB to be a successor to Eli was just plain stupid when Barkley was sitting there at #2. It was a NO-BRAINIER. Besides the Giants got a young capable QB later in the Draft.There is no guarantee that any QB will become a "FRANCHISE" QB. Tom Brady was a SIXTH ROUND draft pick.

This post is awful


I can see the merits of the post, arguing that you take the highest rated player. Nonetheless, until there is some sort finality to this draft- which could take years- the decision of Barkley vs Qb will be hotly debated and rightfully so. It changed the course of the next 10-15 years for the Giants. If they were wrong, the decisions will be amplified if for no other reason than they took a running back at 2 while simultaneously gift wrapping a highly rated qb to the Jets.

Highly regarded or not, taking a running back at 2 is a very large gamble, given shelf life and injury risk. If the Giants were wrong, and this turns out to be similar to the 2004 qb class, the 30 for 30 headline writes itself "what if I told you the Giants had a shot at... and took a running back."

Let the games begin!
Sometimes it's as simple as a team drafting a player because  
UberAlias : 6/20/2018 10:54 am : link
they like him best. They drafted Barkley because they had a very high grade on the guy, highest on their board, and there wasn't enough of a consensus on any of the QBs to persuade them that way. Inferences like "win-now" or worries about sitting a QB for one season who would otherwise project to be the face of the team for a decade and a half are shortsighted fabrications.
RE: Sometimes it's as simple as a team drafting a player because  
Big Blue '56 : 6/20/2018 10:55 am : link
In comment 13995130 UberAlias said:
Quote:
they like him best. They drafted Barkley because they had a very high grade on the guy, highest on their board, and there wasn't enough of a consensus on any of the QBs to persuade them that way. Inferences like "win-now" or worries about sitting a QB for one season who would otherwise project to be the face of the team for a decade and a half are shortsighted fabrications.


👍👍
RE: RE: They can pay Beckham regardless of what  
UConn4523 : 6/20/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13995076 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 13995019 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


our QB is making. I really dont understand that comment.



Wouldn't it be easier to pay Beckham (or anyone else) if our QB was on a rookie deal and therefore not as big a cap hit? This assumes Eli is totally off the books, obviously, which wouldn't happen right away.


No because hes getting paid regardless. We wouldnt just cave to his demands simply because we have more cap room without Eli. Theres a price we are willing to pay, which is going to be slightly more than the current highest paid WR, and its something we can afford regardless of who we are paying at QB.

Elis salary effects FA signings, vet signings, etc. it has no bearing on being able to afford our best player.
I was speaking with and Eagles fan yesterday  
Paulie Walnuts : 6/20/2018 11:12 am : link
and he was effusive when speaking about Barkley, he was telling me we got a huge player that will cause them headaches for years.. God I hope so
I'm not worried about the cap implications of deals for OBJ and  
yatqb : 6/20/2018 11:15 am : link
Collins. The early years of such deals are typically cap-friendly given the ability to stretch bonus payments over the course of the contract. And by the time the annual salaries go up, Eli's contract will likely be off the books.

I was a proponent of taking a QB, but only IF the team flet that the QB was a franchise guy. It seems clear that the team wasn't certain of that with the QBs remaining when they were picking. And they were certain about Barkley. I just hope they're right about the QBs (and the two young ones on our roster.
RE: I agree the NFC is loaded  
ron mexico : 6/20/2018 11:56 am : link
In comment 13995061 The_Boss said:
Quote:
The brain trust believes this is a win now situation. I hope theyre correct because I dont believe this team is ultimately better than Philly, GB, Minnesota, LA, or New Orleans. That leaves one playoff spot in the NFC open and I would think Atlanta, Carolina, Dallas, and perhaps Seattle/Detroit are the NYGs main competition.


I hate the term "win now". The Giants are going to put out the best team possible (within reason) each year and they are going to try to win every game they play.

Full tear downs are rebuilds rarely happen in the NFL and are even more rare for a high profile franchise like NYG
I was all onboard for a QB, and would have been just fine with Darnold  
BSIMatt : 6/20/2018 11:57 am : link
But the reality is the best years for a potential QB drafted #2 overall would have been post-Beckham years so I don't see how drafting a QB helps in the Beckham case because the QB would be in his formative years during Beckham's prime and when the young QB was entering his prime Beckham would be nearing 30 and likely exiting his.
For all the talk about an Eli window, and about the shelf life of a RB, the reality is their is a Beckham window too and to expect Beckham to play at the level he's played at for another 7-10 years isn't an expectation grounded in reality. Any Giants future with a QB at #2, the QBs best years would be spent without Beckham or likely with a declining Beckham.
I don't care what era you play in.  
mittenedman : 6/20/2018 12:03 pm : link
There is no answer for a team that can run the ball and work play action.
Whenever someone says  
CT Charlie : 6/20/2018 1:43 pm : link
we should have taken a QB instead of Saquon, I want to ask, "Which one?" Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen or Allen.

My guess is that only 1 of the top 4 QB's will be a star, and at most two of them will be 5-year starters in the NFL. Each had potential flaws or shortcomings, which seemed comparable to those of Davis Webb as of May 2018. By comparison, Barclay was a sure thing.
I like how they say Eli  
gmen9892 : 6/20/2018 2:41 pm : link
Hasn't been good in play-action for the past few years. They mentioned that "maybe" it was due to having no O-Line or Running Game. GEEE, ya think??

Kinda essential to have at least one of those things to be good at Play-Action. Furthermore, McAdoo's dumbass offense didnt include much PA to begin with for the past 3 years.

Truth is, nobody knows how good this offense is going to run, but they have all the tools to be highly successful if Eli has ANYTHING left.

Lastly, what always fails to get mentioned in the debate for the Giants passing over the QBs is what they think they have in Webb, and now Lauletta. If they think either can adequately run this offense with all the stars and a good OL, that is just as big of a factor as how good Barkley is.
Think the decision was made early on  
TMS : 6/20/2018 3:35 pm : link
that ELI was going to be the QB for at least this year because he still has a lot left. That DG and his team will be able to fix the problems we have without the injuries of last year. We were 11/3 in 16 before they crippled us. Reese and Ross were terrible in the draft and FA acquisitions for the last 7 years. Especially on the OL which any drop back QB has to have. TC was sacrificed to save Reese, Ross and McAdoo. Decisions made by the Maras and OKed by Tisch. Reese was always going to be a tough fire but 3/13 cooked his goose. WE will see how it works out.
RE: Whenever someone says  
lax counsel : 6/20/2018 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13995361 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
we should have taken a QB instead of Saquon, I want to ask, "Which one?" Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen or Allen.

My guess is that only 1 of the top 4 QB's will be a star, and at most two of them will be 5-year starters in the NFL. Each had potential flaws or shortcomings, which seemed comparable to those of Davis Webb as of May 2018. By comparison, Barclay was a sure thing.


How does anyone know Barkley is a sure fire star? I've read knocks on him that he isn't a great pure runner in between the tackles like Zeke or Fortunette and that he's more of a great multipurpose back. What if he's Reggie Bush 2.0, that would be a major disappointment.

I think we're al hopeful that he's great, but he's not a sure thing quite yet.
There is no sure thing  
BSIMatt : 6/20/2018 5:11 pm : link
However, Barkley by all accounts carried a higher grade as a runningback than either Fournette, or Elliot or even Reggie Bush, and this seemed to be consensus. It doesn't mean he's a sure thing, however I don't think the knock on Barkley was that he had issues running inside. The knock that I've seen most commonly mentioned was his tendency to try and make the spectacular play and bounce it, instead of just lowering his shoulder and taking the minimal gain when there was nothing there. Barkley is probably a better pure runner than any of the backs you mentioned, inside or outside. The main difference with Barkley compared to Fournette, Zeke or even Bush was the state of the Penn State offensive line compared to that of the others. Zeke and Fournette were both fortunate to run behind some very, very strong offensive lines. Many of their great inside runs are of them getting a head of steam and running through well blocked holes that they could hit with authority. You probably saw that less often at Penn State due to the lack of resources in the trenches. However, what was probably more impressive on Barkley's part was the amount of times he achieved a significant gain when it looked there was nothing there, that happens over and over in his highlights.
With Eli's ability to read the defense pre-snap, and a little more  
Ivan15 : 6/20/2018 5:20 pm : link
time to execute, I don't know how the Giants offense won't be successful. For 4 seasons, it was Beckham or nothing. Eli will be able to do a lot of damage with medium range passes to 2 tight ends and a slot receiver or 1 tight end and double slot receivers.

I actually have a bit more concern for the defensive transition. It took quite a while for Spag's defense to take hold in 2007, and that wasn't a big change in the system, just a change in philosophy.
RE: RE: Whenever someone says  
UConn4523 : 6/20/2018 8:34 pm : link
In comment 13995519 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 13995361 CT Charlie said:


Quote:


we should have taken a QB instead of Saquon, I want to ask, "Which one?" Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen or Allen.

My guess is that only 1 of the top 4 QB's will be a star, and at most two of them will be 5-year starters in the NFL. Each had potential flaws or shortcomings, which seemed comparable to those of Davis Webb as of May 2018. By comparison, Barclay was a sure thing.



How does anyone know Barkley is a sure fire star? I've read knocks on him that he isn't a great pure runner in between the tackles like Zeke or Fortunette and that he's more of a great multipurpose back. What if he's Reggie Bush 2.0, that would be a major disappointment.

I think we're al hopeful that he's great, but he's not a sure thing quite yet.


Reggie Bush 2.0 minus the injuries is actually a really good player. If thats Barkleys floor then...

But I still dont see the similarities, Barkley is bigger, stronger, and probably just as fast. Hes a bell cow, Bush never was in College or the Pros.
RE: I like how they say Eli  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/20/2018 10:24 pm : link
In comment 13995420 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Hasn't been good in play-action for the past few years. They mentioned that "maybe" it was due to having no O-Line or Running Game. GEEE, ya think??


Totally agree. I think the article has some interesting points, but saying Eli is not a good play action QB misses the point that:
1. The Giants running backs have sucked for the past 5 years
2. The OL has sucked for the past 5 years
3. The Giants offense was entirely predictable since TC left.

Eli has actually been one the best play action QBs in the league when the giants have had even a competent running game.
how about winning 1 fucking game please.  
mdc1 : 6/22/2018 4:17 pm : link
. and then another.
Best Player available in Rd 1  
Alwaysblue22 : 6/29/2018 11:04 am : link
Was Barkley...and that is who you take when you run a draft, and not a possible Franchise QB because we NEED one. You draft for NEED that high you get screwed. Besides the Giants did draft a QB later named Kyle Lauletta who has good skill sets to become a starting QB in the NFL. The only knock on him is he cant throw the long bomb. How many long bombs are thrown in pro-football?. Guess who else could not throw the long Bomb...Joe Montana.. did he suck? Lauletta came from a small school so he is no good? Phil Simms was drafted out of Morehead State that I did not know even existed until Phil was drafted. Tom Brady was a 6th round pick. So STOP THE NONSENSE ABOUT WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN A QB instead of Barkley. Barkley will have a bigger impact on the Giants than any of the top QBs people say we should have taken will have on their teams. And once again. how do we know that either Webb or Lauletta are shit? Either one of them could become the next Franchise QB of the Giants and lead the team for 10+ years after Eli retires.
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