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NFT: Sales Tax free ride on internet sales ended

Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 10:30 am
Supreme Court just passed down a ruling that allows states to require all sellers to collect sales tax on purchases made by state residents.
Well, as much as I hate paying taxes  
jcn56 : 6/21/2018 10:33 am : link
And I HATE paying taxes... hopefully this levels the playing field for local businesses somewhat. That was a tough competitive disadvantage they had to deal with.
Yeah, nobody likes paying taxes  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 10:40 am : link
But absolutely: a fair tax system should apply to everyone.
Sucks for the  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/21/2018 10:44 am : link
consumer.
RE: Yeah, nobody likes paying taxes  
Beer Man : 6/21/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13996077 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
But absolutely: a fair tax system should apply to everyone.
Agree. It is yet to see how much it helps local Brick & Mortar retailers. Sure the tax discount was one advantage for shopping online, but I also like the fact that I don't have to leave my home and fight crowds. Unless they start to charge a "sit on your fat ass tax" for online shoppers, I'll continue to do most of my purchases online.
Physical Presence  
Rick in Dallas : 6/21/2018 11:01 am : link
You may see online retailers building distribution centers in states to avoid that states sales tax.
A very fair tax ruling for brick and mortar retailers who were at a big disadvantage.
If you're going to have a sales tax  
Pork Chop : 6/21/2018 11:02 am : link
it should be evenly applied. I'm not a big gvt guy, but this is the right decision.

I don't think it hurts Amazon or any online vendor. Not a huge number of buying decisions will be impacted by this.
Amazon stock is only fractionally down on the news  
GeofromNJ : 6/21/2018 11:06 am : link
Could be because investors saw this coming and/or because AMZN is now in so many other lines of business.
A mixed bag for small business  
njm : 6/21/2018 11:10 am : link
1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.
It's not going to kill online sales obviously  
jcn56 : 6/21/2018 11:12 am : link
Those retailers still have a lot in their favor. They maintain physical presences in very cheap location and leverage cheap shipping to compete against these local shops, before applying economies of scale that allow them to offer much lower prices.

Giving a consumer a nearly 10% discount (close enough by NYC standards) almost eliminates any advantage the brick and mortar retailers would have for impulse buys.
RE: A mixed bag for small business  
jcn56 : 6/21/2018 11:14 am : link
In comment 13996103 njm said:
Quote:
1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.


I would imagine that for #2 you'd quickly see technical service offerings that integrate to existing e-commerce platforms to solve that problem. How the money would get from the retailer to the municipalities might be a challenge, but I highly doubt there won't be an easy to implement solution before too long.
RE: Amazon stock is only fractionally down on the news  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 13996101 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
Could be because investors saw this coming and/or because AMZN is now in so many other lines of business.

Amazon already collects sales tax on all their sales. The only negative impact to them is that 3rd party sellers on their site are now required to collect the tax. That MIGHT have a negative impact on the fees they collect from 3rd party sellers.

But I would bet this is a net win for Amazon. Their online competition that was not collecting tax is now forced to. Ebay sellers in particular.
In most states if you didn't pay sales tax  
Scyber : 6/21/2018 11:26 am : link
you are supposed to declare all of your purchases in your yearly taxes and pay it that. So technically no one had a "free ride"
Let's fuck small businesses in the ass  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 6/21/2018 11:30 am : link
That's the way government works these days
RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
njm : 6/21/2018 11:33 am : link
In comment 13996112 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13996103 njm said:


Quote:


1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.



I would imagine that for #2 you'd quickly see technical service offerings that integrate to existing e-commerce platforms to solve that problem. How the money would get from the retailer to the municipalities might be a challenge, but I highly doubt there won't be an easy to implement solution before too long.


But at what cost? Software to take care all of that will not be cheap, particularly if it involves quarterly tax filings in multiple states. There's also the time factor a small business would spend doing compliance work. If a small business is doing $50,000. in online business, a compliance cost of $5000. per year may eliminate the profit. Alternatively, I could see small businesses limiting the states they ship to (i.e. a NJ business limiting itself to NY, Conn. and Pa.) to mitigate the cost factor.
RE: RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 13996141 njm said:
Quote:

But at what cost? Software to take care all of that will not be cheap, particularly if it involves quarterly tax filings in multiple states. There's also the time factor a small business would spend doing compliance work. If a small business is doing $50,000. in online business, a compliance cost of $5000. per year may eliminate the profit. Alternatively, I could see small businesses limiting the states they ship to (i.e. a NJ business limiting itself to NY, Conn. and Pa.) to mitigate the cost factor.

Most online small businesses are already selling through a portal like ebay, etsy, Amazon, Walmart, etc. Those companies can easily handle the compliance since they already do it anyway.

Also the ruling requires states that want to participate to streamline compliance and provide free software.
RE: Let's fuck small businesses in the ass  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 11:51 am : link
In comment 13996139 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
That's the way government works these days

If you’re a brick and mortar small business, the old system fucked you much more.
Also, this from the ruling  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 11:59 am : link

"The Act applies only to sellers that deliver more than $100,000 of goods or services into South Dakota or engage in 200 or more separate transactions for the deliv­ery of goods and services into the State on an annual basis."
Is the rate based on where the purchaser lives  
Bill L : 6/21/2018 12:01 pm : link
or where the seller resides?
RE: Also, this from the ruling  
njm : 6/21/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13996166 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:

"The Act applies only to sellers that deliver more than $100,000 of goods or services into South Dakota or engage in 200 or more separate transactions for the deliv­ery of goods and services into the State on an annual basis."



That's the law passed by South Dakota. Other states can pass laws with different thresholds.
RE: RE: RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
jcn56 : 6/21/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13996160 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13996141 njm said:


Quote:



But at what cost? Software to take care all of that will not be cheap, particularly if it involves quarterly tax filings in multiple states. There's also the time factor a small business would spend doing compliance work. If a small business is doing $50,000. in online business, a compliance cost of $5000. per year may eliminate the profit. Alternatively, I could see small businesses limiting the states they ship to (i.e. a NJ business limiting itself to NY, Conn. and Pa.) to mitigate the cost factor.


Most online small businesses are already selling through a portal like ebay, etsy, Amazon, Walmart, etc. Those companies can easily handle the compliance since they already do it anyway.

Also the ruling requires states that want to participate to streamline compliance and provide free software.


And when they don't sell through the portal, they typically use the portal to collect payment.

In the end, it'll be another piece of the checkout mechanism for third party payment like Amazon Payments or PayPal. There won't be any heavy maintenance requirements, probably just a bit of administrative work at the end of the year.
RE: Is the rate based on where the purchaser lives  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13996171 Bill L said:
Quote:
or where the seller resides?

Where the purchaser lives.
RE: Is the rate based on where the purchaser lives  
njm : 6/21/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13996171 Bill L said:
Quote:
or where the seller resides?


I believe where the purchaser lives
Yes where purchaser lives  
Rick in Dallas : 6/21/2018 12:09 pm : link
...
RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13996172 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13996166 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:



"The Act applies only to sellers that deliver more than $100,000 of goods or services into South Dakota or engage in 200 or more separate transactions for the deliv­ery of goods and services into the State on an annual basis."




That's the law passed by South Dakota. Other states can pass laws with different thresholds.

That’s true, but since SCOTUS cited that specifically, a state that passes a law without such thresholds would likely be shot down by lower courts citing this ruling. Besides, it’s the big guys they’re interested in.
So the selling state collects the sales tax levied by the buying state  
NYRiese : 6/21/2018 12:11 pm : link
Is that how it works?
So the selling entity has to keep track of the other 49 states sales tax policies including changes thereof.
If we had a functioning federal government  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 6/21/2018 12:15 pm : link
This would be the time that they would step in and pass a law normalizing the rules for out of state sales tax collections.
There should be a  
spike : 6/21/2018 12:16 pm : link
National sales tax. Why change from state to state
RE: Also, this from the ruling  
mrvax : 6/21/2018 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13996166 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:

"The Act applies only to sellers that deliver more than $100,000 of goods or services into South Dakota or engage in 200 or more separate transactions for the deliv­ery of goods and services into the State on an annual basis."


I have to wonder how this effects a small time Ebay seller.
Are they going to have to find out exactly what rate is right? Then cut a check to that state, city or county?
RE: So the selling state collects the sales tax levied by the buying state  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13996180 NYRiese said:
Quote:
Is that how it works?
So the selling entity has to keep track of the other 49 states sales tax policies including changes thereof.

No. The business making the sale charges the customer the tax rate that applies in the customer’s state. The business then remits the tax to the customer’s state.
RE: RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
njm : 6/21/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13996179 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13996172 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13996166 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:



"The Act applies only to sellers that deliver more than $100,000 of goods or services into South Dakota or engage in 200 or more separate transactions for the deliv­ery of goods and services into the State on an annual basis."




That's the law passed by South Dakota. Other states can pass laws with different thresholds.


That’s true, but since SCOTUS cited that specifically, a state that passes a law without such thresholds would likely be shot down by lower courts citing this ruling. Besides, it’s the big guys they’re interested in.



They HAD to cite that specifically because that was the law being challenged. Unless there is language in the opinion that saying it's constitutional because of the $100,000 and 200 customer thresholds then it does not prevent other states from passing laws with lower thresholds. That could be challenged, but it would result in another case possibly reaching the USSC.
RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13996189 mrvax said:
Quote:

I have to wonder how this effects a small time Ebay seller.
Are they going to have to find out exactly what rate is right? Then cut a check to that state, city or county?

I am certain eBay will handle all this for their sellers. Amazon already has this in place for its 3rd party marketplace sellers.
RE: There should be a  
njm : 6/21/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13996187 spike said:
Quote:
National sales tax. Why change from state to state


Because the revenues go to the states. I'm not sure that a federal law mandating what tax rate a state could charge would be constitutional. And the LAST thing we need is a federal sales tax on top of the state sales taxes.
The complexity  
mrvax : 6/21/2018 12:32 pm : link
of figuring out sales tax and getting that money to 50 states seems excessive. It may open the door for another filthy rich person to start a new corporation: Tax Pal!
interesting vote  
UESBLUE : 6/21/2018 12:34 pm : link
not often you see RBG and Alito/Thomas on the same side. Annoying but fair ruling.
RE: RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
mrvax : 6/21/2018 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13996210 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:


I am certain eBay will handle all this for their sellers. Amazon already has this in place for its 3rd party marketplace sellers.


Thanks, Jim.
RE: The complexity  
njm : 6/21/2018 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13996213 mrvax said:
Quote:
of figuring out sales tax and getting that money to 50 states seems excessive. It may open the door for another filthy rich person to start a new corporation: Tax Pal!


Will Tax Pal handle the quarterly tax returns?
RE: RE: The complexity  
mrvax : 6/21/2018 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13996220 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13996213 mrvax said:


Quote:


of figuring out sales tax and getting that money to 50 states seems excessive. It may open the door for another filthy rich person to start a new corporation: Tax Pal!



Will Tax Pal handle the quarterly tax returns?


For a nominal fee.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13996205 njm said:
Quote:

They HAD to cite that specifically because that was the law being challenged. Unless there is language in the opinion that saying it's constitutional because of the $100,000 and 200 customer thresholds then it does not prevent other states from passing laws with lower thresholds. That could be challenged, but it would result in another case possibly reaching the USSC.

They cited that language specifically in their opinion as one of the reasons for upholding the law. They also added:

“This quantity of business could not have occurred unless the seller availed itself of the sub­ stantial privilege of carrying on business in South Dakota.”

And also:

“South Dakota’s tax system includes several features that appear designed to prevent discrimination against or undue burdens upon interstate commerce. First, the Act applies a safe harbor to those who transact only limited business in South Dakota.”

So I’m pretty certain lower courts would shoot down a state law that didn’t provide similar limitations. And states have little reason to do otherwise. They want the big money fromWayfair, Overstock, eBay, etc. They don’t care about collecting $4.80 from some guy in his garage,
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
njm : 6/21/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13996241 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13996205 njm said:


Quote:



They HAD to cite that specifically because that was the law being challenged. Unless there is language in the opinion that saying it's constitutional because of the $100,000 and 200 customer thresholds then it does not prevent other states from passing laws with lower thresholds. That could be challenged, but it would result in another case possibly reaching the USSC.


They cited that language specifically in their opinion as one of the reasons for upholding the law. They also added:

“This quantity of business could not have occurred unless the seller availed itself of the sub­ stantial privilege of carrying on business in South Dakota.”

And also:

“South Dakota’s tax system includes several features that appear designed to prevent discrimination against or undue burdens upon interstate commerce. First, the Act applies a safe harbor to those who transact only limited business in South Dakota.”

So I’m pretty certain lower courts would shoot down a state law that didn’t provide similar limitations. And states have little reason to do otherwise. They want the big money fromWayfair, Overstock, eBay, etc. They don’t care about collecting $4.80 from some guy in his garage,




So what constitutes substantial privilege? We know $100k does, but how much lower passes muster?


And yes, the states won't care about $4.80 from some guy in his garage. However pardon my cynicism, but I could states as they become increasingly desperate for revenue auditing outfits much smaller than Overstock and Wayfair, in fact under $100k, to pick up revenue in $2k and $3k increments. After all, the owners don't vote in their states.
RE: If we had a functioning federal government  
AcidTest : 6/21/2018 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13996185 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:
This would be the time that they would step in and pass a law normalizing the rules for out of state sales tax collections.


That's what has to be done to avoid the problem of forcing very small businesses of having to comply with thousands of different state and local tax laws. Doing so is cost prohibitive. Time for Congress to do something.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Also, this from the ruling  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13996304 njm said:
Quote:


So what constitutes substantial privilege? We know $100k does, but how much lower passes muster?


And yes, the states won't care about $4.80 from some guy in his garage. However pardon my cynicism, but I could states as they become increasingly desperate for revenue auditing outfits much smaller than Overstock and Wayfair, in fact under $100k, to pick up revenue in $2k and $3k increments. After all, the owners don't vote in their states.


Other states can try what they like, but it’s unlikely to stick if it doesn’t follow the parameters of this ruling. Several states by the way have already passed laws in the South Dakota model with the same limits, putting them in abeyance pending the outcome of this case.
RE: RE: If we had a functioning federal government  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/21/2018 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13996518 AcidTest said:
Quote:


That's what has to be done to avoid the problem of forcing very small businesses of having to comply with thousands of different state and local tax laws. Doing so is cost prohibitive. Time for Congress to do something.

More like 46. The ruling specifically noted South Dakota’s adherence to the Streamlined Sales and Use Tax Agreement, which requires member states to have a single uniform rate that is remitted to a single state agency. Currently 23 states are members.
RE: RE: RE: If we had a functioning federal government  
njm : 6/21/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 13996618 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 13996518 AcidTest said:


Quote:




That's what has to be done to avoid the problem of forcing very small businesses of having to comply with thousands of different state and local tax laws. Doing so is cost prohibitive. Time for Congress to do something.


More like 46. The ruling specifically noted South Dakota’s adherence to the Streamlined Sales and Use Tax Agreement, which requires member states to have a single uniform rate that is remitted to a single state agency. Currently 23 states are members.


That makes New York, with it's varied rates, very interesting.

DeBlasio vs. Cuomo "Two men enter, one man leaves"
RE: A mixed bag for small business  
BMac : 6/21/2018 7:57 pm : link
In comment 13996103 njm said:
Quote:
1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.


People selling on Etsy and EBay just took a hard, un-lubed one in the ass. This favors the largest of the on-line sellers such as WalMart, Amazon, etc. Small independents are fucked.
RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
FStubbs : 6/21/2018 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13996745 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 13996103 njm said:


Quote:


1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.



People selling on Etsy and EBay just took a hard, un-lubed one in the ass. This favors the largest of the on-line sellers such as WalMart, Amazon, etc. Small independents are fucked.


That's the goal.
RE: RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
njm : 6/22/2018 8:30 am : link
In comment 13996772 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13996745 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 13996103 njm said:


Quote:


1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.



People selling on Etsy and EBay just took a hard, un-lubed one in the ass. This favors the largest of the on-line sellers such as WalMart, Amazon, etc. Small independents are fucked.



That's the goal.



Actually, the goal was for the states to capture another revenue source.
RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
Diver_Down : 6/22/2018 8:53 am : link
In comment 13996745 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 13996103 njm said:


Quote:


1. A plus for a strictly brick and mortar businesses.

2. For a small business that does some on line and/or mail order, the expense of complying with several thousand districts (in some states rates vary by county or municipality), of keeping track of what is and what isn't subject to sales tax (clothing is in NY and is not in NJ) and potentially filing sales tax returns in 40-45 states may make it unprofitable to do business in most of the country.



People selling on Etsy and EBay just took a hard, un-lubed one in the ass. This favors the largest of the on-line sellers such as WalMart, Amazon, etc. Small independents are fucked.


I have to believe there are certain thresholds that will have to be met before a seller is obligated to collect/remit sales tax. The seller who decides to sell a few items collecting dust certainly can't be expected to adhere to the decision.
RE: RE: RE: A mixed bag for small business  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/22/2018 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13997016 Diver_Down said:
Quote:


I have to believe there are certain thresholds that will have to be met before a seller is obligated to collect/remit sales tax. The seller who decides to sell a few items collecting dust certainly can't be expected to adhere to the decision.

As I noted above, South Dakota’s law only requires sellers to collect and remit sales tax if they have over $100K in sales or 200 transactions to state residents. Several other states are preparing to enact laws in this model.
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