Over the past 3-4 weeks I've read a few threads saying, that during Reese's tenure here, he put, "Eli Manning in a bad offense", "He was a terrible GM", and I quote "Wasted Eli Manning's prime years"...
However, a GM who put together two Super Bowl championship teams, did he fail Eli Manning during his entire time here?
Is that true?
So I decided to research the point
What does the data show?
The New York Giants offensive stats
2008 3rd ranked offense in NFL, 26.7 points per game
2009 8th ranked offense in NFL, 25.0 points per game
2010 7th ranked offense in NFL, 24.7 points per game
2011 9th ranked offense in NFL, 24.6 points per game
2012 6th ranked offense in NFL, 26.8 points per game
2013 18th ranked offense in NFL, 18.3 points per game
2014 13th ranked offense in NFL, 23.8 points per game
2015 6th ranked offense in NFL, 26.2 points per game
2016 26th ranked offense in NFL, 19.3 points per game
2017 31st ranked offense in NFL, 15.3 points per game
From 2008-2017, 6 out of 10 seasons, Jerry Reese had Eli Manning playing in a top ten offense in the NFL.
7 out of 10 of those seasons, Jerry Reese had Eli Manning playing in an offense that averaged 25.0 points per game.
During all 10 seasons, from 2008-2017, the average points per game came out to 23.1.
In 2013, the reason why the Giants offense suffered, is because Manning lost 2 legitimate #1 Wr's, in Manningham and Nicks.
In 2014 and 2015, the Giants offense bounced back.
They drafted Odell Beckham Jr, hired McAdoo as OC, and the team averaged 25 points per game, during those years.
The issue in those years wasn't the offense, it was the defense.
In 2014 they gave up 25 points per game, and were ranked 22nd in the NFL
In 2015 they gave up 27 points per game, and were ranked 30th in the NFL
So logically Reese realized the Defense was the issue, he therefore injected over 200 million dollars in free agency to shore it up, by signing Snackes, Jenkins and Vernon...
Did it work?
In 2016 the New York Giants defense went from giving up 27.1 points per game, to now giving up only 17.8 points per game, they had the #2 ranked defense in the NFL.
They went 11-5, and Reese was being called a Genius, not only by many BBI members here, but also from the Media.
Before the 2017 season, many sportswriters and media labeled the Giants favorites to win the superbowl.
When Odell Beckham Jr was injured in the 3rd preseason game, there season was shot. Odell masked and covered up many weaknesses the offense had, including the O Line....
The Giants never had an opportunity to have a healthy Engram, Shepard and Odell on the field together to see what they could do.
So as a summary, in my opinion, there were only two seasons the Giants offense truly failed during Reese's tenure here.
Once in 2013, the other in 2017, both seasons were decimated when there star WR went down.
This is what the data shows me...
Feel free to discuss
He’s gone and won’t get another GM job. He was a shitty cap manager too.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
You can have 3 bad drafts in a twelve year tenure but they can’t be in a row
But when they started to break down and aged....he had zero luck replacing the old guard.
That was his major problem.....could not find a center, guard nor LT. Sad
2007-2012 was an inherited line.
Reese from 2012 on: Terrible GM
Although these days I think the BBI consensus is that Tom Coughlin, Ernie Accorsi and Dave Gettleman were responsible for any successes during the Reese era and all Reese did was screw things up.
there's plenty of blame to share. Talent acquisition was very spotty during the Reese/Coughlin years. To think a lauded superbowl winning HC isn't getting a huge input is silly, yet way too many folks lay all the blame on Reese's doorstep.
regarding Reese, folks used to praise his GM skills, but overall, more often than not, the Giants were restricted cap-wise, so I'm not sure how good he was in that department.
His resume is not ***drastically*** different than Eli's who delivered two SB wins but zero playoff wins outside of those years and led or tied for league lead in INTs three times. I am not attempting to give JR the credit I am Eli, but it is not as radical a comparison as will be made out by fans.
Where Reese really failed was in the 3rd and later where he found almost nothing and yet stopped trying to find o-linemen in Rounds 4-5 where others have had success.
For the balance of his tenure, Reese did not properly address the offensive line which players like O'Hara and Diehl have said showed signs of decline beginning in 2009. Depth also became an issue moving forward mostly because we got nothing out of lower parts of the draft...rds 3-7...for years. SB 46 saw McKenzie, Snee and Diehl still from EA. He brought in Baas at center who was okay and Kevin Boothe at left guard although Boothe did not start the year as the starter.
I give him credit for Nicks even though most knew he had foot problems from college. I also give him short term credit for JPP but a lot of his draft picks had career threatening or ending injuries like Kenny Phillips, Nicks, Cruz etc. There are also so many areas he simply ignored in his drafts...tight end, the OL, the defensive line, LB. He built from the outside in and we had terrible depth. Our running game went to hell after Bradshaw left.
I could go on and on...Reese's overall tenure as GM was sub-par, to say the least.
So obviously he needed to go, but saying he wasted Eli's years is prejudicial. Yes, much was bad, but Eli's legacy is built entirely on two SB wins which JR made very big contributions towards and at least you can say he never neglected surrounding Eli with weapons.
That said, this post completely misses the point with how Reese bungled Eli Manning's second half of his career. He waited too long to address the offensive line and didn't invest enough resources into rebuilding the line.
The offensive line has been a disgrace since 2009 or so, save one solid year in 2012. The team hasn't been able to push the D-line back, or give Eli any time to throw in pass protection. It crippled the offense.
But from then on it was a steady decline into mediocrity and haplessness.
The 11 team was an average team, whose veteran championship players reached deep and stole a Super Bowl. Is there any other Super Bowl champion who finished a regular season with more pts given up than points scored?
You can spin it anyway you want, but my take is Reese inherited a great team and made it better.
But he could not sustain, which is the mark of average. His neglect or inability to rebuild an offensive line or restore the rich tradition of Giant linebackers was frustrating.
Reese s tenure will not be remembered as being as successful as Ascorci s even though both Super Bowl Championships came during his tenure, at least not by me.
Probably why he was fired first. Some of those reaches as well as poor clock management probably got him the axe first.
I do believe Reese had some bad luck with injuries, but bad draft picks, every single team has them.
I think what hurt them, was when they made some below average picks, mostly on the offensive line, they just held on to payers too long instead of cutting bait and trying to upgrade the roster.
But what are you going to do, there are 31 other teams trying to win to.
Is he though? He's neither the head coach or the GM.
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To put it all on Reese is unfair.
Probably why he was fired first. Some of those reaches as well as poor clock management probably got him the axe first.
Tom's clock management was directly a result of one of the worst defenses in team history, which was built by Reese.
no one is blameless and we can cherry-pick points everywhere.
It hurts to even look at the names...
Exactly. They told Reese as early as 2009 that it needed to be addressed, that it was beginning to crumble. We all saw it with our own eyes too.
The Coughlin/Gilbride offense was predicated on having time to throw downfield with 5 and 7 step drops. Once they couldn't do that, the whole thing collapsed. Gilbride got the axe first, then Coughlin.
Coughlin has fielded a winner everywhere he's gone. That's not coincidence. Boston College, Jacksonville, NYG, and now back in Jacksonville. When he goes somewhere, the team immediately turns around.
Coughlin knows how to build a team.
But from then on it was a steady decline into mediocrity and haplessness.
The 11 team was an average team, whose veteran championship players reached deep and stole a Super Bowl. Is there any other Super Bowl champion who finished a regular season with more pts given up than points scored?
You can spin it anyway you want, but my take is Reese inherited a great team and made it better.
But he could not sustain, which is the mark of average. His neglect or inability to rebuild an offensive line or restore the rich tradition of Giant linebackers was frustrating.
Reese s tenure will not be remembered as being as successful as Ascorci s even though both Super Bowl Championships came during his tenure, at least not by me.
+1
Another reason why the offensive line was such a big deal was because they couldn't control the TOP and keep their horrible defense off the field.
The line crumbled and the team followed. Like dominoes.
If Webb ever went on to success for us I think that could shift his legacy more favorably. His last draft ironically could prove to be one of his best.
The line crumbled and the team followed. Like dominoes.
He’s gone and won’t get another GM job. He was a shitty cap manager too.
Chris Canty
Antrell Rolle
Jason Pierre Paul
Linval Joseph
Hakeem Nicks
Ahmad Bradshaw
Mario Manningham
Michael Boley
All high level players who contributed to SB 46 but yeah, he sucked, period.
Reese had a good run here. He’s not an idiot nor a fool. He knows how to build a team but it ended badly. Shit happens. If Mars hired a competent HC or even allowed coughlin one more year in 2016 things probably end much differently. They didn’t.
Gettleman is capable. Move on.
Does Eli ever deserve some of the blame for when the team struggles? He’s a very good qb that shined in big moments but he needs help. Some of the struggles here were due to Eli not being extremely elite.
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You can debate his philosophy easily. WRs DBs and DL and ignore good players many times at positions of need. Over drafting guys like Marvin Austin, Sintim, Wilson etc. No eye for OL talent. Drafted one slightly above average OL Pugh in 10m years. Take your stars and your shine box and beat it
He’s gone and won’t get another GM job. He was a shitty cap manager too.
Chris Canty
Antrell Rolle
Jason Pierre Paul
Linval Joseph
Hakeem Nicks
Ahmad Bradshaw
Mario Manningham
Michael Boley
All high level players who contributed to SB 46 but yeah, he sucked, period.
QB Snacks, thanks great response
It comes from confidence gained from all that research.
Is this a statement on his overall record? How long do most GMs last?
Reese inherited a really good team that he helped build under Accorsi's direction. They won the 2007 Super Bowl, and the core of that group pulled a rabbit out of their hat with the 2011 Super Bowl win.
But Reese immediately hired a two-time loser as his draft boss (Ross) and never got rid of him despite his terrible performance. Independent analysis after independent analysis showed that GIANTS drafting under Reese was bottom of the barrel, but Ross continued year after year until Reese was gone. It's no accident that DG's first significant move was firing Ross.
Furthermore, Reese not only totally screwed up renewing the OL and did that on a long-term basis, but also left the safeties grossly undermanned in 2009, continually neglected the linebackers throughout his whole tenure, brought in some sub-standard punters, never really solved the kick and punt return problem, and eventually got bitten in the ass by his strategy of filling the TE job with guys that nobody else wanted.
Meanwhile the GIANTS went from defending champions to cellar dwellers during his tenure while management twiddled their fingers, refusing to act on the obvious.
Reese was a superb scout, but was in over his head as a GM. That should never have been allowed to go on as long as it did.
And by the way, if you don't know what prairie oysters are, they are horse shit.
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Eli Manning had nothing to do with it. If he did, he would be gone just like everybody else.
Is this a statement on his overall record? How long do most GMs last?
It's a statement on his horrible draft record over the past 7 years.
Reese inherited a really good team that he helped build under Accorsi's direction. They won the 2007 Super Bowl, and the core of that group pulled a rabbit out of their hat with the 2011 Super Bowl win.
But Reese immediately hired a two-time loser as his draft boss (Ross) and never got rid of him despite his terrible performance. Independent analysis after independent analysis showed that GIANTS drafting under Reese was bottom of the barrel, but Ross continued year after year until Reese was gone. It's no accident that DG's first significant move was firing Ross.
Furthermore, Reese not only totally screwed up renewing the OL and did that on a long-term basis, but also left the safeties grossly undermanned in 2009, continually neglected the linebackers throughout his whole tenure, brought in some sub-standard punters, never really solved the kick and punt return problem, and eventually got bitten in the ass by his strategy of filling the TE job with guys that nobody else wanted.
Meanwhile the GIANTS went from defending champions to cellar dwellers during his tenure while management twiddled their fingers, refusing to act on the obvious.
Reese was a superb scout, but was in over his head as a GM. That should never have been allowed to go on as long as it did.
And by the way, if you don't know what prairie oysters are, they are horse shit.
He also weathered the storm of losing arguably the best player on the team in an unnecessarily dramatic retirement.
Accorsi and Reese assembled a quality team that had a great run between 2007-2011.
Reese's time ran its course, and like virtually all front office guys got fired for not achieving. But the poor end of his tenure doesn't erase his achievements.
He also weathered the storm of losing arguably the best player on the team in an unnecessarily dramatic retirement.
Accorsi and Reese assembled a quality team that had a great run between 2007-2011.
Reese's time ran its course, and like virtually all front office guys got fired for not achieving. But the poor end of his tenure doesn't erase his achievements.
Christian great post, thanks
If Webb ever went on to success for us I think that could shift his legacy more favorably. His last draft ironically could prove to be one of his best.
+1 on the first paragraph. Part plays also in his projects and reaches,e.g. Flowers; and often trying to find starters in rounds 3-7 with those projects and reaches instead of better proven talent.. When he built O he had poor D, then when he built D had poor O; which additionally wasted Eli's productive years, especially since 2012..
Coughlin knows how to build a team.
Q: Have you had a chance to talk to him?
A: I did.
Q: How did that conversation go?
A: Very well, thank you. He is very excited. Did you see that picture of him slapping hands? I thought he was going to kill somebody.
Q: Is he a right tackle or a left tackle?
A: He can be either side. He [was] a left tackle last year, but he has the size and so on and so forth to play a lot of spots if you so desire. We think he is a tackle.
Q: Do you expect him to come in and compete for a starting spot?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Do you view Justin Pugh as a potential person to move inside?
A: We are talking about Ereck Flowers, and I am not going to comment on that until I have the opportunity to talk to our coaches about exactly how we are going to go about starting this.
Q: Would you say he is more ahead as a run-blocker or more of a pass-blocker?
A: He is both. He is athletic. He has good feet. He is big and strong and powerful. As I said, [he was] the strongest guy at the Combine. He can do both.
Q: Was offensive line the particular focus for you?
A: Yeah, but you know how the Giants operate – the best player on the board is going to get the majority of the consideration, and that was the case right here.
Q: Did it work out well in where he fell and your board ratings?
A: Absolutely.
Q: What have you seen from [Flowers] in regard to his nasty streak?
A: You see him on film. You see him at the second level trying to finish people off. Arriving in a bad humor at a pile. You see all that stuff.
Q: Do you feel like Pugh, Weston Richburg and Flowers are the nucleus of the offensive line going forward?
A: He is an addition to the players that we have here. We are excited about that. We do have some veteran players here as well. Hopefully the best will rise to the surface.
Q: What do you know about him as a person?
A: I can read and I have read page after page after page of interviews and summaries and evaluations and so on and so forth. Everything we hear – he is very, very close with his dad. His dad is with him all the time. At his workout, his dad was there. I think that is a very strong relationship and I think that points to a very solid young man. Maybe a little bit on the quiet side, but he is young. He is a guy that is always in the weight room, always hanging around, even as they practiced down there this spring, from what I understand.
Q: Do you see [Flowers] as competition for left tackle?
A: It is competition up front, period. It will be that. The better the competition, the better the results.
Q: Was this your first choice of a position in the first round?
A: That was one of, yes.
Q: Did [Brandon Scherff] going to Washington surprise you?
A: Well, there is always the chance. He [is] a very, very solid football player who is well thought of throughout the league. Ranked very highly by everyone. For him to go there is not a shock.
"Tom has been a very successful coach," Khan said Thursday from his suite overlooking the field at EverBank Field, where the Jaguars (10-6) will play Buffalo (9-7) on Sunday. "This is a different stage for him. Can he embrace it? I think It turned out better than probably, certainly, I thought it would. And really the credit is to him.
"I can tell you he never asked for the 53-man roster. It was my idea. 'Tom, that means nothing changed [if he didn't give him control]. It's maybe not good for Dave's ego, but there has to be somebody in charge, and it needs to be you.'
It's easy to see why Khan wanted change. The Jaguars were 17-63 since he took over as owner in 2012 and hadn't won more than five games in any of those five seasons. Khan hired Caldwell, who in turn hired Gus Bradley, and they began a complete rebuild beginning in 2013. By the end of the 2016 season, however, it was clear things weren't working, and Khan fired Bradley with two games remaining in the regular season.
He decided to try a different approach and turned to Coughlin, the franchise's inaugural coach, who took the team to a pair of AFC Championship games in the first five seasons of existence and won two Super Bowls with the New York Giants.
"What I felt we lacked was football IQ," Khan said. "You just can't say, 'Let me go to craigslist or backpage.com and get some football IQ.' You want somebody who really has the passion, the emotion, the drive. Nobody really personifies it better than Tom Coughlin.
Owner Shad Khan credits Tom Coughlin with Jaguars' success 1/4/18 - ( New Window )
Coughlin has a great football mind. He's a big part of getting Jacksonville over the hump. But him being a great football mind and gradually becoming an ineffective coach for the Giants aren't mutually exclusive.
Just as Macadoo being the exact wrong successor and it being time for Coughlin to go wasn't mutually exclusive.
Ultimately I dont think it matters as the draft is such a crap shoot and the Giants showed that just 1 good draft can change the fortunes of a team. Like the Saints this year. But thats how hard it is to do.
Ultimately I dont think it matters as the draft is such a crap shoot and the Giants showed that just 1 good draft can change the fortunes of a team. Like the Saints this year. But thats how hard it is to do.
Coughlin was the gm and coach from day one. Yes, it fell apart eventually, but he had full control from their inception until he was fired.
Coughlin has a great football mind. He's a big part of getting Jacksonville over the hump. But him being a great football mind and gradually becoming an ineffective coach for the Giants aren't mutually exclusive.
Just as Macadoo being the exact wrong successor and it being time for Coughlin to go wasn't mutually exclusive.
I think he would have, if he was allowed to go out on his terms.... Ben Mcadoo couldnt hold an ineffective Coughlin's jock. If Coughlin had been given a chance with the defense we fielded in 2016 after he was fired we would have been a legit contender. Shame he didn't get the opportunity.
Plain and simply: he could not evaluate OL talent. Period. The offensive lines in 2007 and 2011 were pretty much all thanks to EA, and once they started to erode/leave Reese couldn't build a decent offensive line. It's mostly why we went 3-13 last season and why he's now unemployed.
Scapegoating is the name of the game, of which Coughlin himself was a party to with a long list of coordinators.
Like I said above, Coughlin's effectiveness tailing off and Macadoo being the exact wrong choice aren't mutually exclusive.
By 2015 this team was and had been a mess for 4 straight years. Coughlin at his age getting a team back to a championship would have been unprecedented.
I would have preferred a full purge after the 2015 season, but Mara was grasping for the illusion of steady succession. Good lesson for him -- everyone one day loses their value and it's never sunshine when they go.
I don't get it, Coughlin is often accused of being too loyal to players and coaches on here, and now you're saying that he threw guys under the bus to save himself? That doesn't compute.
I don't get it, Coughlin is often accused of being too loyal to players and coaches on here, and now you're saying that he threw guys under the bus to save himself? That doesn't compute.
Was his hand forced with Hufnagel, Lewis, and Fewell? He had no problem being pragmatic when it came to underachieving coordinators.
He did what he had to do to keep his job and improve. I don't buy for a second Coughlin wasn't in full control of his staffing moves.
And he either played perfectly along for more than a decade or was directly a part of it. Again I am not knocking it. He's an awfully pragmatic and tough guy. The Giants were very lucky he was their coach for a really fantastic run.
Is this a top 10 list?
only teams with constant success are the teams with excellent QB play
I noticed this as well.
Delayed investing, poor choices from free agency & drafts when finally made, and lastly the stubbornness to stick with those flawed Tackles in 2016 & 2017.
Even though, as pointed out by the OP's research they could score points in certain years, the Giants were not competitive enough in the NFCE with that line. In fact, the O-line deficiencies can easily be seen as key factors in the removal of Coughlin, McAdoo and ultimately Reese...
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Tom Coughlin was never going to just hang it up and move upstairs. He's not that type of guy. Nothing would have made Mara happier -- it would have been the storybook ending he wants for everyone.
Coughlin has a great football mind. He's a big part of getting Jacksonville over the hump. But him being a great football mind and gradually becoming an ineffective coach for the Giants aren't mutually exclusive.
Just as Macadoo being the exact wrong successor and it being time for Coughlin to go wasn't mutually exclusive.
I think he would have, if he was allowed to go out on his terms.... Ben Mcadoo couldnt hold an ineffective Coughlin's jock. If Coughlin had been given a chance with the defense we fielded in 2016 after he was fired we would have been a legit contender. Shame he didn't get the opportunity.
Geo, I agree not resigning Bennett was a fatal move
Engram was far better last year than Bennett was in 2012.
only teams with constant success are the teams with excellent QB play
In 2015 the Giants were garbage. Eli threw for 4432 yards and 35 TDs/14 INTs - the highest QB rating of his career.
But what's the use of having one, if you don't protect him?
It took a herculean effort by Manning to do what he did in 2011, without a solid OL......and Reese thought he could continue to play like that without a solid OL....but he couldn't.....without time to pass and without an OL that could convert short yardage situations, this affected the options Eli had in his play calling from 2011 onward...2012 to 2017 should have been Eli's elite years, but no OL and lack of a running game prevented that...and because of that, is Eli now "damaged goods"? We saw many times last year where Eli gave up on plays, or took a dive when he thought there was pressure, that sometimes wasn't there.....Can Eli reset that clock in his head, after taking all the hits these past 7 seasons? We better hope so......
Reese wasn’t a bad talent evaluator but he was an historically bad GM. I think he was weak with directing his scouts and Ross, which was disasterous and horrible with the press.
Engram was far better last year than Bennett was in 2012.
I'm not saying Bennett was All Pro. I'm saying that Myers was gawd awful and that with Bennett, the Giants win three more games, possibly four.
Anyone can go and look at how many PPG we averaged in any given year on about 20 different sites.
What's the point of this? To re-hash the performance of the team when Reese was the GM?
Yippee. He's gone. Time to move on.