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NFT: Westworld Season 2, Ep 10 (Spoilers)

Trainmaster : 6/25/2018 1:39 am
I didn't see an Ep 10 thread; if there was one, I'll delete this one.

I have to say I've been disappointed in the season overall. Way too much jumping back and forth. Way too much, "Which reality is this?", Is this "real" or not?

My guess is that is exactly what the producers and writers wanted, but I think they went way overboard.

This season of Westworld reminded me of the worst aspects of "Lost".

Is the show over, or are we going to be treated to "Dolores in the real world" in Season 3?

IMHO, "Billions" (when ended a couple of weeks ago), admittedly a very different show, kicked Westworld's ass this season.
The best thing I can say about the ep is it made me  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 6/25/2018 3:01 am : link
go back and listen to King of Limbs for the first time in a while.
Comparing this show to Lost makes little sense to me  
Giantology : 6/25/2018 5:58 am : link
I understand the criticism of the show not being linear enough, which Lost did eventually get into as well- but, there has yet to be a single wasted shot or dialogue from Westworld.

Lost was an absolute mess of a show where they had no idea where they were going. Westworld clearly has a direction and a vision and isn't piling up on mysteries that will never be resolved.
And no, the show is not over  
Giantology : 6/25/2018 5:59 am : link
It was reported that HBO plotted out 5 seasons for Westworld.
RE: Comparing this show to Lost makes little sense to me  
Tony in Tampa : 6/25/2018 7:08 am : link
In comment 13999045 Giantology said:
Quote:
I understand the criticism of the show not being linear enough, which Lost did eventually get into as well- but, there has yet to be a single wasted shot or dialogue from Westworld.

Lost was an absolute mess of a show where they had no idea where they were going. Westworld clearly has a direction and a vision and isn't piling up on mysteries that will never be resolved.


I never saw Lost. But I agree with the first two posters that WWS2 has been a disappointment. After last night’s season finale, I would say a huge disappointment.

Let me try and sum up what I saw. After 80 mins or so of a mess of a storyline we ended up with:
• A newly minted Charlotte with a Deloris consciousness in her head escaping the park to the mainland/human world where she prints up a new Deloris and Bernard with the consciousnesses she took in her carryon bag. The 2 Delorises are going to go out into the human world and will try to destroy it. Bernard is going to try and stop them…S3.
• After the closing credits we see that MiB’s elevator finally gets to the bottom fl only to find out that he is going through the same test of fidelity that his younger self had been putting James Delos through. Except this test is being run by his daughter. This implies that his searching since S1 was to prove, as he says that he: is not controlled by some system. He has gone through the test several times and like James Delos still seems buggy.

All season long the show has been slipping off the rails and last night it went off the cliff into the river.

S1 was a nice trip converting ideas from the 73 movie to modern day. S2 and its multiple timelines has been a sh!t show.

The MiB wrap up at the end was a nice bit of a mindbender and seems symmetrical for MiB as an SOB and for what was being done to James Delos. But for me, that does not save the rest. I’ll have to decide in a year or so if I will even care to watch S3.
There’s some deductions here which I don’t quite agree with  
wigs in nyc : 6/25/2018 8:42 am : link
in general, the show can have different people not agreeing on what they just saw, which I like. I thought this season was great, for the most part. The ‘Valley Beyond’ got a little schmaltzy there towards the end- and Westworld doesn’t normally do schmaltzy- ylech.

wrt William, I think everything we’ve seen of him in the park is actually him. And that he was taken out of the park alive by the rescue teams after nearly blowing off his hand. At some point in the future William dies. Then, further in the future, something in an Emily-host-body is trying to successfully Delos him, for whatever reason.
Here’s an interview with one of the creators  
wigs in nyc : 6/25/2018 8:50 am : link
which helps to explain the last scene.
Lisa Joy Interview - ( New Window )
That interview certainly helps  
mako J : 6/25/2018 10:33 am : link
So in the future, hosts and possibly humans are simulating the "war" to study changes in host/human behavior and decision making.

Possibly setting up a Terminator go back in time to change the future storyline? I'm not suggesting actual time travel, simply simulations designed to better understand the enemy.
A clear case of second-season-itis  
DieHard : 6/25/2018 11:21 am : link
It took them a while longer than anticipated to build season 1, and I think the extra time helped. No such luck this time. It says something that the two most compelling parts of season 2 (Mr. Delos' search for immortality and the Native American's quest) were basically side stories.

This year they spent way too much time on plot logistics, and shuttling everyone back and forth (and for what? To push a few buttons and transport a few "pearls" to the outside world), and either forgot to develop the returning characters, or just rushed their development (I understand Sizemore gaining sympathy for Maeve, but sacrificing himself for her?) or muddled up their motivations completely.

And I like soaring shots of vistas as much as the next guy, but you'd think someone would have a helicopter or something available. 30% of the show this year was people riding or driving somewhere.
Personally, I loved this season  
Giantology : 6/25/2018 11:45 am : link
Especially after the last episode giving you the context for why the season was shot the way it was. They wanted it to be scrambled - because that is how Bernard "remembered" it.

Similarly, Season 1's flashbacks were worked in because that was Dolores gaining consciousness and accessing all of her old memories.
RE: Personally, I loved this season  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/25/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13999231 Giantology said:
Quote:
Especially after the last episode giving you the context for why the season was shot the way it was. They wanted it to be scrambled - because that is how Bernard "remembered" it.

Similarly, Season 1's flashbacks were worked in because that was Dolores gaining consciousness and accessing all of her old memories.


Maybe next season will be about William doing the exact same.
I really didn't think it was too hard to follow  
Pete in 'Vliet : 6/25/2018 12:22 pm : link
Maybe a little in the middle with all the Bernard & Charlotte scenes in a row all from different timelines, but if you pay attention to the settings you should have been able to tell them apart.

There were some inconsistancies with the plot. ex. How did Teddy's body get underwater with the other hosts, if he was left behind by Delores? But nothing I couldn't look past.

William's story did bother me. Its like they were setting up a final showdown between him and Bernard & Delores but then forgot about him in that elevator. Was he just in that elevator for a days until the second support team showed up? I feel it would have been better if, in the last beach scene, they showed that he did die. Then the after credit scene sould be interpretted as a final halucination as he (a human now conviced he is a host) was bleeding out in the elevator.

Other than that, I thought is was fine. They have alot to work with in season 3. Delores, disguised as Charlotte, was shuffling through alot of hosts when the second support team found her in the "later timeline" and she is seen carrying multiple "code marbles". It will be interesting to see who she chose bring to the real world.

Maeve & company were still on the beach as she was leaving, so not them. I kind of liked how thier "deaths" actually saved them, at least as characters on this show. Now that Felix & Sylvester get to pick who gets repaired, they will most certainly be back. Although, it makes Lee's sacrifice unneccesary. He could have let Hector sacrifice himself and repair him later. But whatever.
RE: I really didn't think it was too hard to follow  
Jon in NYC : 6/25/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13999254 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
Maybe a little in the middle with all the Bernard & Charlotte scenes in a row all from different timelines, but if you pay attention to the settings you should have been able to tell them apart.

There were some inconsistancies with the plot. ex. How did Teddy's body get underwater with the other hosts, if he was left behind by Delores? But nothing I couldn't look past.

William's story did bother me. Its like they were setting up a final showdown between him and Bernard & Delores but then forgot about him in that elevator. Was he just in that elevator for a days until the second support team showed up? I feel it would have been better if, in the last beach scene, they showed that he did die. Then the after credit scene sould be interpretted as a final halucination as he (a human now conviced he is a host) was bleeding out in the elevator.

Other than that, I thought is was fine. They have alot to work with in season 3. Delores, disguised as Charlotte, was shuffling through alot of hosts when the second support team found her in the "later timeline" and she is seen carrying multiple "code marbles". It will be interesting to see who she chose bring to the real world.

Maeve & company were still on the beach as she was leaving, so not them. I kind of liked how thier "deaths" actually saved them, at least as characters on this show. Now that Felix & Sylvester get to pick who gets repaired, they will most certainly be back. Although, it makes Lee's sacrifice unneccesary. He could have let Hector sacrifice himself and repair him later. But whatever.


The shot of him in the elevator was actually host William in the future. It was a scene that set up the post credits scene. What actually happened is he was found in the dirt and patched up.
I enjoyed this season  
RobCarpenter : 6/25/2018 12:59 pm : link
A lot to think about in terms of what free will is, choice, morality, temptation, etc.

As for Stubbs being a host -- it begs the question of how a robot can continuously work alongside humans for years and never, ever age. Are we supposed to think that people only work at the park for five years at most, so they don't notice when someone doesn't age?

I was sort of hoping that Elsie wasn't real (was in Bernard's mind only) but oh well.

RE: RE: I really didn't think it was too hard to follow  
RobCarpenter : 6/25/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13999274 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13999254 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


Maybe a little in the middle with all the Bernard & Charlotte scenes in a row all from different timelines, but if you pay attention to the settings you should have been able to tell them apart.

There were some inconsistancies with the plot. ex. How did Teddy's body get underwater with the other hosts, if he was left behind by Delores? But nothing I couldn't look past.

William's story did bother me. Its like they were setting up a final showdown between him and Bernard & Delores but then forgot about him in that elevator. Was he just in that elevator for a days until the second support team showed up? I feel it would have been better if, in the last beach scene, they showed that he did die. Then the after credit scene sould be interpretted as a final halucination as he (a human now conviced he is a host) was bleeding out in the elevator.

Other than that, I thought is was fine. They have alot to work with in season 3. Delores, disguised as Charlotte, was shuffling through alot of hosts when the second support team found her in the "later timeline" and she is seen carrying multiple "code marbles". It will be interesting to see who she chose bring to the real world.

Maeve & company were still on the beach as she was leaving, so not them. I kind of liked how thier "deaths" actually saved them, at least as characters on this show. Now that Felix & Sylvester get to pick who gets repaired, they will most certainly be back. Although, it makes Lee's sacrifice unneccesary. He could have let Hector sacrifice himself and repair him later. But whatever.


The shot of him in the elevator was actually host William in the future. It was a scene that set up the post credits scene. What actually happened is he was found in the dirt and patched up.


This. The elevator is empty when he enters -- if it had been the same timeline as Bernard then Bernard would have either been in the elevator or he would have seen him when he went below.

I'd still like to know how MiB didn't die from bleeding out after being shot multiple times from guns that now can kill humans.
RE: RE: RE: I really didn't think it was too hard to follow  
Pete in 'Vliet : 6/25/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13999284 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13999274 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 13999254 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


Maybe a little in the middle with all the Bernard & Charlotte scenes in a row all from different timelines, but if you pay attention to the settings you should have been able to tell them apart.

There were some inconsistancies with the plot. ex. How did Teddy's body get underwater with the other hosts, if he was left behind by Delores? But nothing I couldn't look past.

William's story did bother me. Its like they were setting up a final showdown between him and Bernard & Delores but then forgot about him in that elevator. Was he just in that elevator for a days until the second support team showed up? I feel it would have been better if, in the last beach scene, they showed that he did die. Then the after credit scene sould be interpretted as a final halucination as he (a human now conviced he is a host) was bleeding out in the elevator.

Other than that, I thought is was fine. They have alot to work with in season 3. Delores, disguised as Charlotte, was shuffling through alot of hosts when the second support team found her in the "later timeline" and she is seen carrying multiple "code marbles". It will be interesting to see who she chose bring to the real world.

Maeve & company were still on the beach as she was leaving, so not them. I kind of liked how thier "deaths" actually saved them, at least as characters on this show. Now that Felix & Sylvester get to pick who gets repaired, they will most certainly be back. Although, it makes Lee's sacrifice unneccesary. He could have let Hector sacrifice himself and repair him later. But whatever.


The shot of him in the elevator was actually host William in the future. It was a scene that set up the post credits scene. What actually happened is he was found in the dirt and patched up.



This. The elevator is empty when he enters -- if it had been the same timeline as Bernard then Bernard would have either been in the elevator or he would have seen him when he went below.

I'd still like to know how MiB didn't die from bleeding out after being shot multiple times from guns that now can kill humans.


Well Bernard was already below with Delores and there is no indication that William made it out of the elevator. But Bernard whould have seen him when he left or the 2nd support team should have found him when when went back to the forge with Bernard & Charlotte/Delores.

Maybe we will find out how he ended back on the beach with the survivors, but I am dissapointed in the lack of a real ending to his season story. The first episode this season, made it seem he would be instrumental in Ford's "Door" story/game, but he was just left behind in that elevator the whole finale.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really didn't think it was too hard to follow  
Jon in NYC : 6/25/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13999291 Pete in 'Vliet said:
Quote:
In comment 13999284 RobCarpenter said:


Quote:


In comment 13999274 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 13999254 Pete in 'Vliet said:


Quote:


Maybe a little in the middle with all the Bernard & Charlotte scenes in a row all from different timelines, but if you pay attention to the settings you should have been able to tell them apart.

There were some inconsistancies with the plot. ex. How did Teddy's body get underwater with the other hosts, if he was left behind by Delores? But nothing I couldn't look past.

William's story did bother me. Its like they were setting up a final showdown between him and Bernard & Delores but then forgot about him in that elevator. Was he just in that elevator for a days until the second support team showed up? I feel it would have been better if, in the last beach scene, they showed that he did die. Then the after credit scene sould be interpretted as a final halucination as he (a human now conviced he is a host) was bleeding out in the elevator.

Other than that, I thought is was fine. They have alot to work with in season 3. Delores, disguised as Charlotte, was shuffling through alot of hosts when the second support team found her in the "later timeline" and she is seen carrying multiple "code marbles". It will be interesting to see who she chose bring to the real world.

Maeve & company were still on the beach as she was leaving, so not them. I kind of liked how thier "deaths" actually saved them, at least as characters on this show. Now that Felix & Sylvester get to pick who gets repaired, they will most certainly be back. Although, it makes Lee's sacrifice unneccesary. He could have let Hector sacrifice himself and repair him later. But whatever.


The shot of him in the elevator was actually host William in the future. It was a scene that set up the post credits scene. What actually happened is he was found in the dirt and patched up.



This. The elevator is empty when he enters -- if it had been the same timeline as Bernard then Bernard would have either been in the elevator or he would have seen him when he went below.

I'd still like to know how MiB didn't die from bleeding out after being shot multiple times from guns that now can kill humans.



Well Bernard was already below with Delores and there is no indication that William made it out of the elevator. But Bernard whould have seen him when he left or the 2nd support team should have found him when when went back to the forge with Bernard & Charlotte/Delores.

Maybe we will find out how he ended back on the beach with the survivors, but I am dissapointed in the lack of a real ending to his season story. The first episode this season, made it seem he would be instrumental in Ford's "Door" story/game, but he was just left behind in that elevator the whole finale.


Sorry I don't think I did a good job of explaining. The scene in which you saw him going into the elevator was tied into the same post credits scene in which he met his host daughter. That never happened in the same timeline as Bernard.
Oh yeah  
Pete in 'Vliet : 6/25/2018 1:28 pm : link
from what I read this morning. The show runners hinted the post credit scene is occurring in the far future. Someone, maybe Delores, has built a William replicant and is testing him at the Forge site.

When I watched it, I immediatly thought it was an hallucination, since William was convinced that he and the daughter he shot, were hosts. His hallucination as he is dying, comfirms to himself that he is not in control of his actions and his "real" daughter is still alive. That of course would have worked better if William had died right there in the elevator.

As it is, William (human?) is still somehow alive in the aftermath of the flood, and will be transported back to the main land. But at some point in the future a William host is created to match up with the moment after he left the elevator. Why? Who knows?
I think  
Jon in NYC : 6/25/2018 1:33 pm : link
the argument is that MIB is so predictable, that a host would take the exact same actions as MIB.
RE: I think  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/25/2018 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13999314 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
the argument is that MIB is so predictable, that a host would take the exact same actions as MIB.


Humans are very predictable. That's what they discovered through their data collection.

They basically said that the Hybrids wouldn't work because Humans are coded to fight for survival. As robots, there is no longer a need to fight for survival and thus the robot would shit out after a while.

Delores actually programs people like Bernard to be very similar to their original person, but slight tweaks, so that they could continue to live and not come back to that one defining moment (Arnold it was suicide, Delos was his son asking for help, MIB was killing his own daughter and losing complete control of reality).
No surprise  
Tony in Tampa : 6/27/2018 8:02 am : link
WW season 2 ratings drop from season 1:
Link - ( New Window )
was it ever discussed how the droids get powered?  
ron mexico : 6/27/2018 3:13 pm : link
what ever happened to Bernard's brain fluid issue?

RE: was it ever discussed how the droids get powered?  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/27/2018 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14000912 ron mexico said:
Quote:
what ever happened to Bernard's brain fluid issue?


They patched Bernard's head up and gave him some more fluid.
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