known how it will change. We’ve discussed this ad infinitum since Shurmur came here and certainly with the addition of Barkley. Perhaps there’s something “new” in the article, but I’d be surprised. 😎😎
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
I think Reese was hell-bent on helping McAdoo's anemic offense. Don't be surprised that if EE continues to improve, we'll see him split out as a WR on some plays.
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
Not for nothing, but I'd rather have Engram than anybody you mentioned. All good football players no doubt, but a fast receiving TE was needed. And don't count out his blocking ability. He is not that much smaller than Mark Bavaro who destroyed people on the OLine. Blocking is as much about "want to" as it is physical skills. Engram looks like he wants to, so I believe he will be able to block.
Yeah, Engram definitely has his weaknesses but he's not a bust Â
The obvious stuff...Barkley, being in the huddle more, better run/pass balance...but I seriously don’t think play action was mentioned once...unless I somehow missed it with all the pop up ads
This one from earlier in June mentioned some expected changes Â
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
Engram played 77% of all offensive snaps and 25% of all special teams snaps. I would argue pretty confidently he's been the better player than the TE everyone wanted.
Takkarist McKinley played 38% of all Falcons defensive snaps.
TreDavious White: 98%
TJ Watt: 76%
Forrest Lamp missed the entire season and hasn't played a game yet.
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
I think people get this wrong on both sides, a lot seem to want to call him a tight end. He isn't. He's a big WR that will hopefully be used correctly this year. IE blocking LBs and DBs on outside runs where he can excel as a blocker. Not inline against DEs where he is sub par.
He isn't a TE that put up "pro bowl" receiving numbers. He is a WR that had a nice little start to the year who under a good coach will leverage the fact that he has excellent great size for a WR and excellent speed for his size.
Should read "He is a WR that had a nice little start to his career who under a good coach will leverage the fact that he has great size for a WR and excellent speed for his size."
RE: This one from earlier in June mentioned some expected changes Â
from Shurmur's offense as well including the route concepts and usage of play-action + extra blockers in pass pro if anyone is interested:
https://247nfl.co/2xXUJTU
Thanks for posting, really good read, may have been posted previously, I missed it - added the link below:
"One of Shurmur's most oft-used offensive concepts is the play-action passing game. In 2017, Shurmur’s quarterback Case Keenum ran the third-highest percentage of play-action passes in the NFL and finished with a quarterback rating of over 110 on these plays. In the past, Shurmur has coordinated two Eagles offenses with Nick Foles (2013, 2014) that finished with the third and highest percentage, respectively, of play-action passes called in those seasons. Foles finished with quarterback ratings of over 134 and over 90 in those seasons, respectively. Manning told WFAN Radio in his 2017 wrap-up interview that he would like the next head coach and offensive play caller to get back to utilizing the play action pass. This has always been one of Manning's biggest strengths even though McAdoo failed to make it a substantial part of the Giants offensive scheme."
But if you ditch the traditional concept of having a FB and use Engram as a H-back, his blocking which will be based largely on getting to a spot and holding it against someone no bigger than a LB will be a plus.
I also think that SB will do better without a blocking back leading him and slowing everything down and getting in the way.
On goal line or short yardage, we should use Stewart with a backup o-lineman or Snacks lining up as a blocking back.
RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
I think people get this wrong on both sides, a lot seem to want to call him a tight end. He isn't. He's a big WR that will hopefully be used correctly this year. IE blocking LBs and DBs on outside runs where he can excel as a blocker. Not inline against DEs where he is sub par.
He isn't a TE that put up "pro bowl" receiving numbers. He is a WR that had a nice little start to the year who under a good coach will leverage the fact that he has excellent great size for a WR and excellent speed for his size.
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
i didnt either, and to be frank i wasnt very thrilled with him last season. pretty sure he lead the league in drops. he isnt much of a blocker. hopefully this offense utilizes him down the seams more often.
RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
i didnt either, and to be frank i wasnt very thrilled with him last season. pretty sure he lead the league in drops. he isnt much of a blocker. hopefully this offense utilizes him down the seams more often.
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
Shockey was a way better blocker in his first year than Engram. Who was very bad as a blocker. I don't know why you want him to spend time on something he doesn't have much aptitude in. I'm not putting him in a box, i'm saying put him in a position to do what he excels at, operating in space. That seems to be what Shurmur likes to do so I think that's what we should expect.
RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE. Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
Shockey was a way better blocker in his first year than Engram. Who was very bad as a blocker. I don't know why you want him to spend time on something he doesn't have much aptitude in. I'm not putting him in a box, i'm saying put him in a position to do what he excels at, operating in space. That seems to be what Shurmur likes to do so I think that's what we should expect.
He operates in space now though. It's not as if by playing him at TE he's not seeing good matchups. He can't be covered by linebackers. That's been his specialty. If we're trying to only put him in positions where he wins matchups, we already know he can torch coverages inside the hashmarks. Why would you look to match him up with players who are much closer to his athletic ability, and also coverage specialists?
Playing him inside also means he draws safety attention away from the outside because of the mismatch that he is.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
He operates in space now though. It's not as if by playing him at TE he's not seeing good matchups. He can't be covered by linebackers. That's been his specialty. If we're trying to only put him in positions where he wins matchups, we already know he can torch coverages inside the hashmarks. Why would you look to match him up with players who are much closer to his athletic ability, and also coverage specialists?
Playing him inside also means he draws safety attention away from the outside because of the mismatch that he is.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be lined up in many different ways. I am saying he shouldn't be asked to block DEs, something he was asked to do way too often last year. And I don't think coaching is going to change the fact that he shouldn't be asked to do this much anymore.
RE: RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE. Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
The stats are what they are: Very impressive for a rookie TE to chart among the top 5-6 in the league. One can treat that as unimpressive if they want to, but it doesn't really affect the reality of it. He had a good season, and like many other young players, has things to work on. Blocking's a necessary function of the job as well.
But if the story was reversed, and he was some excellent blocker, and finished his rookie season with 320 yards and 2 TDs, nobody would have much to say about how important blocking is. They'd call it a huge disappointment and be correct in doing so.
And for the record, I'm one of the biggest defenders of PFF on this community. His rating indicates exactly what their metrics are designed to do, grade that particular player's individual responsibility on any given play. So drops, missed blocking assignments are heavily negative-weighted. So yes, he was lowly ranked among TEs. Here's what they actually thought of him as a player in detail.
Largely due to his poor run blocking grade (39.0), Engram owns just the 43rd overall grade among tight ends at 50.2. Of course, his bread & butter has kept him afloat among the masses, as he ranks third among tight ends with 275-plus passing snaps in receiving grade.
However, Engram’s elite production and efficient route-running only scratches the surface in regard to his accomplishments through the air this season. Engram has adopted an entirely different role than what he was previously asked to perform at the college level within the Giants’ offensive scheme, and he’s done so without breaking stride. In East Rutherford, Engram has run 61.3 percent of his routes (195) at in-line tight end or H-back, where he has brought in 26-of-40 targets for 279 yards (1.43 YPRR) and two touchdowns. On his 78 (24.5 percent) routes from the slot, has caught six of his 13 targets for 77 yards and one touchdown.
Conversely, the former Ole Miss standout put on a show during his final season for the Rebels, running 73.3 percent of his routes (274) from the slot throughout his senior campaign. He led FBS tight ends with at least 26 targets in total yards per route run (2.59) and ranked second in yards per route run from the slot (2.61) among FBS tight ends with 70 or more slot routes. Going beyond Engram’s (obviously successful) transition from the slot to a traditional tight end position, New York has also asked the rookie first-rounder to take his talents outside the hashes in relief of injured receivers Odell Beckham Jr. and Brandon Marshall.
After running just four routes from an outside receiver position throughout his final two years in Oxford, Engram has run 43 total routes at either left or right receiver through 10 games with the Giants, 32 of which came after Beckham and Marshall’s injuries. On those routes, Engram has recorded eight receptions for 69 yards and one touchdown.
A combination of the Giants’ injuries at receiver and Engram’s pass-catching prominence has given head coach Ben McAdoo & Co. every reason to call on him to deliver results all over the field. The former No. 23 overall pick is the only first-year tight end to run more than 300 routes through Week 10 in the PFF era.
Engram, of course, has answered the call.
That's a bit more positive than " Yeah, but they ranked him #67th."
at the time that was written he was the 43rd ranked TE and he slipped further down by the end of the year and they called out his run blocking grade as poor.
Which just feeds into my point, call him a tight end if you want but in my estimation a tight end you want to run block and catch passes so that is my whole thing, you don't really want Engram to run block. You want him to be a receiver. It really isn't meant to be any insult to him but he isn't a good tight end. Trying to position his season as "great for a rookie TE" because of his receiving stats is really oversimplifying things. His numbers should be compared to WRs because he doesn't block well at all.
Trying to position his season as "great for a rookie TE" because of his receiving stats is really oversimplifying things. His numbers should be compared to WRs because he doesn't block well at all.
But his season was great for a rookie TE. I'm not trying to fluff anything with tricky math or sideways justification. Take a look at the rookie seasons for Travis Kelce, Rob Gronkowski, Jason Witten, Jeremy Shockey, Jimmy Graham, OJ Howard and Zach Ertz.
Dismissing it because of his blocking deficiencies is akin to dismissing a Mercedes because of a lack of cargo space. Look, blocking is valuable. Offensive playmakers are more valuable.
RE: RE: RE: RE: article touches on why I didn't want Engram Â
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE. Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
That says you need to know about PFF. Engram needs to focus more on addressing his drops but he had one of the best rookie years EVER for a rookie TE, and he was in an offense that lacked any big play threat at WR and RB and had Eli playing behind two of the worst bookend tackles in the league.
This thing with Jenkins is not good and we need a big year from Apple and whom ever starts at FS .
Secondly the pass rush is a huge question mark , I think were fine in defending the run , Improved LB thats why I am
curious to see if Carter can make up for what we lost in JPP
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
pass
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
I think Reese was hell-bent on helping McAdoo's anemic offense. Don't be surprised that if EE continues to improve, we'll see him split out as a WR on some plays.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
Not for nothing, but I'd rather have Engram than anybody you mentioned. All good football players no doubt, but a fast receiving TE was needed. And don't count out his blocking ability. He is not that much smaller than Mark Bavaro who destroyed people on the OLine. Blocking is as much about "want to" as it is physical skills. Engram looks like he wants to, so I believe he will be able to block.
The obvious stuff...Barkley, being in the huddle more, better run/pass balance...but I seriously don’t think play action was mentioned once...unless I somehow missed it with all the pop up ads
https://247nfl.co/2xXUJTU
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
Engram played 77% of all offensive snaps and 25% of all special teams snaps. I would argue pretty confidently he's been the better player than the TE everyone wanted.
Takkarist McKinley played 38% of all Falcons defensive snaps.
TreDavious White: 98%
TJ Watt: 76%
Forrest Lamp missed the entire season and hasn't played a game yet.
Ramczyk: 100%
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
I think people get this wrong on both sides, a lot seem to want to call him a tight end. He isn't. He's a big WR that will hopefully be used correctly this year. IE blocking LBs and DBs on outside runs where he can excel as a blocker. Not inline against DEs where he is sub par.
He isn't a TE that put up "pro bowl" receiving numbers. He is a WR that had a nice little start to the year who under a good coach will leverage the fact that he has excellent great size for a WR and excellent speed for his size.
https://247nfl.co/2xXUJTU
Thanks for posting, really good read, may have been posted previously, I missed it - added the link below:
"One of Shurmur's most oft-used offensive concepts is the play-action passing game. In 2017, Shurmur’s quarterback Case Keenum ran the third-highest percentage of play-action passes in the NFL and finished with a quarterback rating of over 110 on these plays. In the past, Shurmur has coordinated two Eagles offenses with Nick Foles (2013, 2014) that finished with the third and highest percentage, respectively, of play-action passes called in those seasons. Foles finished with quarterback ratings of over 134 and over 90 in those seasons, respectively. Manning told WFAN Radio in his 2017 wrap-up interview that he would like the next head coach and offensive play caller to get back to utilizing the play action pass. This has always been one of Manning's biggest strengths even though McAdoo failed to make it a substantial part of the Giants offensive scheme."
Link - ( New Window )
I also think that SB will do better without a blocking back leading him and slowing everything down and getting in the way.
On goal line or short yardage, we should use Stewart with a backup o-lineman or Snacks lining up as a blocking back.
I think people get this wrong on both sides, a lot seem to want to call him a tight end. He isn't. He's a big WR that will hopefully be used correctly this year. IE blocking LBs and DBs on outside runs where he can excel as a blocker. Not inline against DEs where he is sub par.
He isn't a TE that put up "pro bowl" receiving numbers. He is a WR that had a nice little start to the year who under a good coach will leverage the fact that he has excellent great size for a WR and excellent speed for his size.
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
i didnt either, and to be frank i wasnt very thrilled with him last season. pretty sure he lead the league in drops. he isnt much of a blocker. hopefully this offense utilizes him down the seams more often.
Quote:
at #23. Great player, glad he's on the team, but he's not a full-time player. In the 1st round I want a dominant guy who doesn't come off the field. Not a part timer or a situational guy.
Sure you CAN play Engram full-time at TE but it's going to limit what you can do (or how effective you can be doing it). Frustrating that Cam Robinson, Forrest Lamp, Ryan Ramcyzk, T.J. Watt, Takkarist McKinley & Tre'Davious White were all picked after. Full-time football players.
Again, love Engram, but just did not see eye to eye with Reese's roster-building.
i didnt either, and to be frank i wasnt very thrilled with him last season. pretty sure he lead the league in drops. he isnt much of a blocker. hopefully this offense utilizes him down the seams more often.
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
Quote:
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
Shockey was a way better blocker in his first year than Engram. Who was very bad as a blocker. I don't know why you want him to spend time on something he doesn't have much aptitude in. I'm not putting him in a box, i'm saying put him in a position to do what he excels at, operating in space. That seems to be what Shurmur likes to do so I think that's what we should expect.
Quote:
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE.
Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 13999409 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
I don't know how you can be so sure of putting him in a box as a WR when he simply hasn't been one. You can think his skills translate there, but it's not what he did in college.
The worst thing you can say about the kid is he needs work on his blocking. Most TEs do when they're rookies. A perfect example of this is Shockey. He profiled exactly like Engram. A glorified WR in college because of his insane athletic ability. Coaching turned him into a fine blocker. It didn't happen in a single year.
Shockey was a way better blocker in his first year than Engram. Who was very bad as a blocker. I don't know why you want him to spend time on something he doesn't have much aptitude in. I'm not putting him in a box, i'm saying put him in a position to do what he excels at, operating in space. That seems to be what Shurmur likes to do so I think that's what we should expect.
He operates in space now though. It's not as if by playing him at TE he's not seeing good matchups. He can't be covered by linebackers. That's been his specialty. If we're trying to only put him in positions where he wins matchups, we already know he can torch coverages inside the hashmarks. Why would you look to match him up with players who are much closer to his athletic ability, and also coverage specialists?
Playing him inside also means he draws safety attention away from the outside because of the mismatch that he is.
Quote:
In comment 13999525 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13999409 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
He operates in space now though. It's not as if by playing him at TE he's not seeing good matchups. He can't be covered by linebackers. That's been his specialty. If we're trying to only put him in positions where he wins matchups, we already know he can torch coverages inside the hashmarks. Why would you look to match him up with players who are much closer to his athletic ability, and also coverage specialists?
Playing him inside also means he draws safety attention away from the outside because of the mismatch that he is.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be lined up in many different ways. I am saying he shouldn't be asked to block DEs, something he was asked to do way too often last year. And I don't think coaching is going to change the fact that he shouldn't be asked to do this much anymore.
Quote:
In comment 13999535 BlackburnBalledOut said:
Quote:
He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE. Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
The stats are what they are: Very impressive for a rookie TE to chart among the top 5-6 in the league. One can treat that as unimpressive if they want to, but it doesn't really affect the reality of it. He had a good season, and like many other young players, has things to work on. Blocking's a necessary function of the job as well.
But if the story was reversed, and he was some excellent blocker, and finished his rookie season with 320 yards and 2 TDs, nobody would have much to say about how important blocking is. They'd call it a huge disappointment and be correct in doing so.
And for the record, I'm one of the biggest defenders of PFF on this community. His rating indicates exactly what their metrics are designed to do, grade that particular player's individual responsibility on any given play. So drops, missed blocking assignments are heavily negative-weighted. So yes, he was lowly ranked among TEs. Here's what they actually thought of him as a player in detail.
Largely due to his poor run blocking grade (39.0), Engram owns just the 43rd overall grade among tight ends at 50.2. Of course, his bread & butter has kept him afloat among the masses, as he ranks third among tight ends with 275-plus passing snaps in receiving grade.
However, Engram’s elite production and efficient route-running only scratches the surface in regard to his accomplishments through the air this season. Engram has adopted an entirely different role than what he was previously asked to perform at the college level within the Giants’ offensive scheme, and he’s done so without breaking stride. In East Rutherford, Engram has run 61.3 percent of his routes (195) at in-line tight end or H-back, where he has brought in 26-of-40 targets for 279 yards (1.43 YPRR) and two touchdowns. On his 78 (24.5 percent) routes from the slot, has caught six of his 13 targets for 77 yards and one touchdown.
Conversely, the former Ole Miss standout put on a show during his final season for the Rebels, running 73.3 percent of his routes (274) from the slot throughout his senior campaign. He led FBS tight ends with at least 26 targets in total yards per route run (2.59) and ranked second in yards per route run from the slot (2.61) among FBS tight ends with 70 or more slot routes. Going beyond Engram’s (obviously successful) transition from the slot to a traditional tight end position, New York has also asked the rookie first-rounder to take his talents outside the hashes in relief of injured receivers Odell Beckham Jr. and Brandon Marshall.
After running just four routes from an outside receiver position throughout his final two years in Oxford, Engram has run 43 total routes at either left or right receiver through 10 games with the Giants, 32 of which came after Beckham and Marshall’s injuries. On those routes, Engram has recorded eight receptions for 69 yards and one touchdown.
A combination of the Giants’ injuries at receiver and Engram’s pass-catching prominence has given head coach Ben McAdoo & Co. every reason to call on him to deliver results all over the field. The former No. 23 overall pick is the only first-year tight end to run more than 300 routes through Week 10 in the PFF era.
Engram, of course, has answered the call.
That's a bit more positive than " Yeah, but they ranked him #67th."
Which just feeds into my point, call him a tight end if you want but in my estimation a tight end you want to run block and catch passes so that is my whole thing, you don't really want Engram to run block. You want him to be a receiver. It really isn't meant to be any insult to him but he isn't a good tight end. Trying to position his season as "great for a rookie TE" because of his receiving stats is really oversimplifying things. His numbers should be compared to WRs because he doesn't block well at all.
But his season was great for a rookie TE. I'm not trying to fluff anything with tricky math or sideways justification. Take a look at the rookie seasons for Travis Kelce, Rob Gronkowski, Jason Witten, Jeremy Shockey, Jimmy Graham, OJ Howard and Zach Ertz.
Dismissing it because of his blocking deficiencies is akin to dismissing a Mercedes because of a lack of cargo space. Look, blocking is valuable. Offensive playmakers are more valuable.
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In comment 13999535 BlackburnBalledOut said:
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He was also, among ALL tight ends, 6th in receptions, 5th in yardage, and 3rd in plays over 20 yards. So frankly there's plenty to be pleased about.
PFF isn't the end all be all. But they grade out each and every play individually and shouldn't be ignored. In spite of his receiving stats for him to rate as low as he did says something about the quality of the blocks he was making or lack there of.
I get that it's nice to say he put up these stats as a TE but receiving was about the only the well he did "as a TE" so I don't understand the insistence on trumpeting his stats as a TE. Evan Engram #67 tight end from PFF - ( New Window )
That says you need to know about PFF. Engram needs to focus more on addressing his drops but he had one of the best rookie years EVER for a rookie TE, and he was in an offense that lacked any big play threat at WR and RB and had Eli playing behind two of the worst bookend tackles in the league.
Secondly the pass rush is a huge question mark , I think were fine in defending the run , Improved LB thats why I am
curious to see if Carter can make up for what we lost in JPP
Anywhere that he gets clobbered by some 300+ pond lineman (running start or not).
He's a 4.4 forty guy (235) faster than most NFL CBs; If he's going to block anybody I want him running over 200 pound CBs & safeties
How many teams can match a three receiver set of OBJ, Engram, Shep ? - not many (and Barkley coming out of the backfield ? - Fo-git-about-it !)
Make our 1st rounder earn his pay and take shots down the field.