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The Giants made some wholesale changes along the offensive line, invested the No. 2 overall pick in running back Saquon Barkley, and are in the process of rebuilding the defense from the ground up to a 3-4 under new defensive coordinator James Bettcher and linebacker acquisition Alec Ogletree. Those are the types of things you do when you finish 3-13 the prior season, but how much improved will the Giants be under new head coach Pat Shurmur? Pro Football Focus is tampering down expectations. The football analytics and grading site ranks the Giants roster No. 28 in the NFL: |
I think if the questions and youngster all get answered or perform positively Giants roster will be the opposite of what PFF says, but all the questions won't be answered positively.
This offense has the potential to be EXPLOSIVE and explosive against any defense. But it must stay healthy through camp and through the season cause the depth at some spots is deep.
Keep the low rankings and low expectations coming...
I remember him saying this amid all the speculation that the Giants were really going to be good.
It stuck with me and made me wonder why there was so much optimism in regard to this team.
A better question might be, do the Giants still have one of the worst or in regards to last season, maybe the worst roster on the offensive line.
Many believe Eli can still play, but one thing is for certain; he does not have the skill set to overcome a bad line.
So, we shall see. If Simms was correct, and I believe he was. Then improvement alone the line should solve many of the problems they had last year, allowing them to utilize the weapons FMIC refers to.
Overall though, this is BS. The Giants have a lot of high end talent, a lot. Offensively, if SB is as good as advertised, I can't imagine there are teams that share our talent at the skill positions. Our OL should be average at least. Defensively, we are a year removed from having a dominant group. I think you can make the case that we are a step or two below that now, but we still have an elite pass rusher, an elite CB, elite safety and some newfound talent. I do agree with are thin in a lot of places, but so is every team.
joeinpa : 10:06 am : link : reply
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore
Phil is basically a moron when it comes to football commentary. When Giants fans even seldomly agree with a long-revered star, you can pretty much know he's sucked.
Simms was absolutely brutal as a commentator his last few years. Heck, I still remember driving to the Giants-Vikings championship game and Phil said on a pre-game show: "Sorry Giants fans, but the Vikings are going to win by 3 touchdowns today".
I don't mind predictions, but ones said with such certainty that turn out so poorly and you have to question the guy's competence. Not to mention - when was the last time a home playoff team was routed by 3 TD's?
RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.
WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average
TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.
OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.
DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.
LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.
CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.
S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.
That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.
The GROUP is average to above average.
RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.
WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average
TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.
OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.
DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.
LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.
CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.
S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.
That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.
I do believe Flowers will be better at RT than LT. How much better remains to be seen.
RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.
WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average
TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.
OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.
DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.
LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.
CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.
S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.
That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.
I think I'd rank our WRs a little higher and our TEs a little lower than you did, but overall this is a fair and objective assessment. 28th is silly.
But I ve always enjoy hearing him talk about football, and still enjoy his banter with Boomer on their This Week in the NFL show
I realize that Simms is out there some times, and adamant in his opinions, guess I just enjoy his personality and remember how much he meant to Giants fans who stayed loyal to the team 64 through 80
As a fan since 56, I remember those years well.
But in any regard, I think his take on the influence of a bad offensive line was spot on.
Eli
OL
Front 7 on D
I see some people say Eli is average or above. I think that is sort of semantics, but I don't think many people outside of Giants nation consider 37 year old Eli Manning average or above average. I think he's consistently considered below average at this point. Warranted or not is not a debate I' going to have with anyone, but facts are that is how he's universally regarded IMO, outside of NY/Giants fans
OL is a huge crapshoot. For one, Solder was not elite the past few years, and people thinking he'll be a savior might be disappointed. After him there are a lot of questions. If the OL can't protect Eli and can't run block not much else matters. Just looks at Todd Gurley in 2016 vs 2017 to see what happens when teams sell out to stop the run, sure the Rams didn't have a Beckham, but if you don't have time to get Beckham the ball either it's not going to matter.
Front 7 on D lost JPP and struggled to rush the passer with him. Turned over all starting LB's which may be a good thing and might work out better especially with a base D switch, but A lot of unknowns.
So for most of the media/national people I think they view change as risky, but as fans closer to it, we know most of these changes are for the best.
In the end I think the Giants roster should probably be higher than 28, but hopefully the Giants see this and use it to get a chip on their shoulder, nothing better than getting back that 2007 swagger the Giants had in the playoffs.
If they just acquire the players that do what the philosophy calls for, they don't have to be universally good, just good for us...,aka lil Bill's ' Just do your job'.
I know, I'll get posts about how Darkwa ran the ball for 4.4 ypc and Gallman 4.3 ypc. Well, when a defense knows you have to throw it to win the game, they aren't as concerned with loading the box. The key is to run the ball effectively against a defense that is actively trying to stop the run. We should be able to do that effectively this year.
The roster is good. Both offensively and defensively. There are questions about depth, but they brought in some good players.
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comes close to expectations, he's average to above average?? GTFO with that. He's got elite expectations.
The GROUP is average to above average.
No way. We drafted SB to be a bellcow. Look at Pitt. Does anyone rank their group as average???? The Giants have some depth at RB, but SB should be elite, at least those are the expectations. If, as you say, he comes close to expectations, our GROUP should be in the top 10 in the NFL.
If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.
While likely true, in all fairness, the season was essentially over before that game. We had yet to win a game.
It seems that the side of the debate that thinks we have a decent to good roster is premised on us rolling aces with all our draft picks, Eli Manning being significantly better than he has been since the end of the first half of the Washington home game in 2016, the offensive line not being a problem although it is not nearly fixed and Eli Apple suddenly turning it around. I just don't see it all working that way.
This is a multi year process, even in this NFL when fortunes change rapidly.
If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.
Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT
If the Giants avoid injuries to key personnel and the OL improves...they will be good.
That's why a team in the top 5 in health has been in the SB every year but 2 since 2000.
The bottom line in the NFL - if you stay healthy, you will be competitive. We saw what a difference 2016 had. A team with a putrid offense still made the playoffs due to overall team health.
I think it is generally agreed that we still lack depth and that injuries WILL happen. We just can't predict who will get injured. Unfortunately, wherever injuries strike, it will hurt us because of our lack of depth.
Conclusion, let's temper our enthusiasm for the playoffs and hope for a steady improvement in our team.
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you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?
If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.
Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT
This isn't the point though. Someone graded the positions and we are commenting on those grades. You don't grade the RB's based on the OL. The RB group with an all world, HOF, generational talent should be excellent, regardless of you the 3rd and 4th RB's are or the OL which gets their own grade.
Overstated. These games come down to a few bounces generally.
...in our offensive line unit, you'll be amazed how all the other units will benefit, thus instantly upgrading everyone, everywhere.
In the meantime, we are what our record is... and the last official one was 3-13.
Here's to a lot more wins in 2018 with a much improved roster!
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Phil Simms, a guy that for some reason opinion
joeinpa : 10:06 am : link : reply
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore
Phil is basically a moron when it comes to football commentary. When Giants fans even seldomly agree with a long-revered star, you can pretty much know he's sucked.
Simms was absolutely brutal as a commentator his last few years. Heck, I still remember driving to the Giants-Vikings championship game and Phil said on a pre-game show: "Sorry Giants fans, but the Vikings are going to win by 3 touchdowns today".
I don't mind predictions, but ones said with such certainty that turn out so poorly and you have to question the guy's competence. Not to mention - when was the last time a home playoff team was routed by 3 TD's?
The 2005 giants.
I remember him saying this amid all the speculation that the Giants were really going to be good.
It stuck with me and made me wonder why there was so much optimism in regard to this team.
A better question might be, do the Giants still have one of the worst or in regards to last season, maybe the worst roster on the offensive line.
Why the optimism for Slick's patented WCO-Pray OBJ Breaks a Slant for a TD for a Chance to Win (WCO-POBJBSTDCW) that scored like a whopping 8 points in the last 5 games and got exposed by a not so good GB team + Brandon Marshall?
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In comment 14001422 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?
If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.
Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT
This isn't the point though. Someone graded the positions and we are commenting on those grades. You don't grade the RB's based on the OL. The RB group with an all world, HOF, generational talent should be excellent, regardless of you the 3rd and 4th RB's are or the OL which gets their own grade.
So what? What's the point of having a good rb if you cant use him to be "excellent." Its like judging a car without its engine, the OL is a big component of whether this roster is good or not. To individualize it kinda misses the point of football. You can have Larry Fitzgerald playing with Kurt Warner and they go to the Super Bowl and you can have him playing with Drew Stanton and he becomes more human. Football is a team game, no one individual is going to be better than the parts besides the QB on offense and an Edge Rusher on defense.
I'd say TE definitely.
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groups do we have that project to be above average? Beyond WR and RB...I'd say zero. Overall depth is a concern as well - especially given the dollars and draft capital we've spent at RB and the previous regime's lousy drafts.
I'd say TE definitely.
Snacks is top tier DT and Tomlinson had a solid rookie year. BJ Hill looks to be the goods too.
2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.
3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.
4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.
5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.
Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.
Most other fans I know praised the Barkley pick as they probably heard a lot of the analysts call him the best prospect in the draft. Since I live in Panthers country, most of their fans hated when Gettleman was fired and replaced with Hurney and they think he's a very good GM and wish he was still with Carolina.
I don't really hear much on other positions but I have friends who are fans of the Rams and Bills and both of them said that Barkley will pay immediate dividends for the offense, referencing Gurley and McCoy. They can't believe how much firepower the offense will have.
Most other fans I know praised the Barkley pick as they probably heard a lot of the analysts call him the best prospect in the draft. Since I live in Panthers country, most of their fans hated when Gettleman was fired and replaced with Hurney and they think he's a very good GM and wish he was still with Carolina.
I don't really hear much on other positions but I have friends who are fans of the Rams and Bills and both of them said that Barkley will pay immediate dividends for the offense, referencing Gurley and McCoy. They can't believe how much firepower the offense will have.
Interesting. But maybe Southerners are just more polite. :)) Or maybe you have smarter friends :))
We absolutely sucked before those WRs went down. A number of people on here were concerned that the front office would attribute the meltdown to injuries. They didn’t, they cleaned house. If it was all about those injuries then MacAdoo would still be the HC.
This rebuild is going to be a process. Look for improvement and maybe success will follow.
They all wanted nothing to do with the Giants drafting Barkley.
Our Dline and lb corp could be a weakness or a strength depending on the rookies the 2nd year guys and FA pick ups. I will conced Snacks playing well but thw other guys have zero track record.
Giants : 1:08 pm : link : reply
ago. Reese spent a lot of money on the defense. Now the defense has a lot of question marks. Is anyone surprised ?
what does one have to do with the other?
FatMan in Charlotte : 1:12 pm : link : reply
is there a point here??
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Not to long
Giants : 1:08 pm : link : reply
ago. Reese spent a lot of money on the defense. Now the defense has a lot of question marks. Is anyone surprised ?
what does one have to do with the other?
So your saying spending all that money on Defense and so soon afterwards the defense has tons of question marks means nothing to you. Well ok then
Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.
That said, I think the upgrades and coaching/system changes could be enough to be an 8-8 team, if they've solved the chemistry issues in the building.
Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.
Agreed. If we can stay healthy I think we go 10-6. Maybe not good enough to beat out Philly for the division, but a playoff berth for sure (again, if healthy).
They are, at best, bottom of the top half. There are a lot of holes on that defense.
That said, I think the upgrades and coaching/system changes could be enough to be an 8-8 team, if they've solved the chemistry issues in the building.
This is a good post.
Mcadoo loved to gamble and go for the TD instead of kicking the FG.
Snacks
Vernon
Ogletree
Collins
Jenkins
That’s 5 of 11 starters on defense. Tomlinson is a plus player. Apple was solid as a rookie and bad last year. That’s a strong core of talent on defense — which doesn’t include any of the rookies or FA acquisitions.
Offensively, Beckham is an all-pro caliber player. Barkley is expected to be an all-pro player. Engram is a plus TE expected to improve. Sheppard is a plus player. The OL should be improved at 3 spots, maybe 4 if Flowers works out at RT.
I see a disconnect with these types of articles, particularly when it comes to fantasy. I know fantasy is fantasy and all that, but take a look at the ADP of guys like Beckham, Barkley, Sheppard, and Engram. Look at the projected stats of those guys. Then look at Eli’s ADP and his projected stats. Simply doesn’t add up mathematically.
Not a great example. OBJ was ranked as the #77 player last year. He played 4-5 games(at like 75%) and he was still ranked the 77th best player. The fact that he was even on that list shows respect from some of his peers.
2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.
3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.
4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.
5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.
Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.
I would say most fans don't go past one. Most fans don't follow other teams like they do their team.
I don't think there is anyway to judge the line until some games start.
Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.
What I meant by that comment was that most fans don't evaluate as deeply on other teams as going beyond that first point. As I've moved around over my lifetime and traveled, it is very rare to find true NFL fans. Most are fans of their team or casual fans. It's rare to find knowledgeable fans who can talk intelligently about other teams without parroting talking heads on ESPN or some talk radio show.
QB: ( ). Being kind here
RB + They better be.
WR : + Only with Beckham , who I give a 60/40 shot of missing a large chunk of the season
TE: ( ). Engram has more to prove. Ellison is a journeyman who is getting way too much pub.
OL: (-). Somewhat unfair because they will have to protect an immobile QB, but from C moving R they are suspect . Consider the other lines in the division , each of whom have quaterbacks who are mobile .
DL: ( ) Run stoppers-sure- but pass rushing ?
LB: ( ) Better but still questionable .
DB: ( -) In a pass- crazy league , the Giants might have the worst secondary of them all.
K: (-) PK is a choke
Return men & Coverage ( )
They should have been well into the bottom ten.
These ratings are insanely stupid.
Go Giants!
A)Stay healthy...injuries killed us last year.
B) They need to be able to run the ball, with SB and the OL upgrades that's the expectation. We should be able make teams put 8 in the box if SB is as good as he appears to be.
C) "B" takes alot of the heat off Eli and opens up it up for OBJ, Engram and Shepard.
D) Stop the run. Investment in LB's will help. We are thin in the secondary though.
C) The first half of the schedule is BRUTAL. Jacksonville at the home opener is a very tough out. If they can come out at .500 or a game or two lower, 8 & 8 is in the cards, maybe an outside shot at the Wild Card (Philly is going to repeat the division win).
Poor coaching, the OL, poor play calling/preparation, the OL, injuries, the OL, guys having down years, the OL, etc......
Anything that could go wrong, went wrong.....an int, a fumble, a strip sack, a 14 yard completion on 3rd and 15, a completion that leaves one second on the clock, and you guessed it, a fg attempt from 61 yards that was good, etc.
5 losses by 7 points or less.......9 games where the opposition scored 24 points or less......and yet, it resulted in a 3-13 record....
2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.
3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.
4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.
5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.
Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.
That is 180 from what I have heard from fans of other teams. Especially the Cowboy and Eagle fans I know hate that we completely upgraded our line got what many are calling the best complete RB from the last 10 years and took our LB crew to a much better level.
How could he not be given what we had there last season