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Do Giants still have one of the worst rosters in the NFL?

gidiefor : Mod : 6/28/2018 9:51 am
Quote:
The Giants made some wholesale changes along the offensive line, invested the No. 2 overall pick in running back Saquon Barkley, and are in the process of rebuilding the defense from the ground up to a 3-4 under new defensive coordinator James Bettcher and linebacker acquisition Alec Ogletree.

Those are the types of things you do when you finish 3-13 the prior season, but how much improved will the Giants be under new head coach Pat Shurmur?

Pro Football Focus is tampering down expectations.

The football analytics and grading site ranks the Giants roster No. 28 in the NFL:

- More - by Matt Lombardo/NJ.Com - ( New Window )
It is really..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 9:54 am : link
difficulty for me to believe you can have one of the best WR's in the game, arguably the best young RB to come into the league in some time, a top CB player and a top DL player, and have only a couple teams worse in terms of talent.
Oy  
djstat : 6/28/2018 9:54 am : link
Analytics only mean so much. Injuries destroyed this team. There is talent.
Al McGuire- "Paralysis by Over-Analysis"  
TheMick7 : 6/28/2018 9:56 am : link
.
28th might be a bit low  
Greg from LI : 6/28/2018 9:57 am : link
But it's not very good. Very thin in a bunch of places.
Positionally I think the Giants  
pjcas18 : 6/28/2018 9:58 am : link
have some strong units, even if they're top heavy, but a lot of unknowns and questions on the bottom half of the roster and if the lines don't improve, on both sides of the ball, the results will be like last year.

I think if the questions and youngster all get answered or perform positively Giants roster will be the opposite of what PFF says, but all the questions won't be answered positively.
RE: It is really..  
SGMen : 6/28/2018 9:59 am : link
In comment 14001316 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
difficulty for me to believe you can have one of the best WR's in the game, arguably the best young RB to come into the league in some time, a top CB player and a top DL player, and have only a couple teams worse in terms of talent.
Agreed. If we stay healthy, hey, from worst to first is possible??? I'd feel more confident if we had at least ONE more pass rusher of merit, but hey, those types don't grow on trees.

This offense has the potential to be EXPLOSIVE and explosive against any defense. But it must stay healthy through camp and through the season cause the depth at some spots is deep.
I like the ranking as given  
Jimmy Googs : 6/28/2018 10:02 am : link
Giants typically suck when there is ANYTHING expected of them.

Keep the low rankings and low expectations coming...
Many of us ďknow,Ē at least on paper,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/28/2018 10:03 am : link
that we should be strong contenders if healthy. Not going to get into the depth issues or injury, etc., as thatís the m.o. for most, if not all, of the NFL. But thatís preaching to the choir I guess
Phil Simms, a guy that for some reason opinion  
joeinpa : 6/28/2018 10:06 am : link
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore, said at the beginning of last season: "A bad offensive line is hard to overcome, it can have a domino affect on a team.

I remember him saying this amid all the speculation that the Giants were really going to be good.

It stuck with me and made me wonder why there was so much optimism in regard to this team.

A better question might be, do the Giants still have one of the worst or in regards to last season, maybe the worst roster on the offensive line.

Many believe Eli can still play, but one thing is for certain; he does not have the skill set to overcome a bad line.

So, we shall see. If Simms was correct, and I believe he was. Then improvement alone the line should solve many of the problems they had last year, allowing them to utilize the weapons FMIC refers to.
.  
Danny Kanell : 6/28/2018 10:06 am : link
I honestly have no idea. Iím looking forward to this season but there arenít many results, good or bad, that would surprise me from this team. I think they are a total crapshoot.
PFT thinks differently than a large portion of bbi.  
Keith : 6/28/2018 10:10 am : link
They have never been high on Eli and at this point in his career, I think they are very low on him. A lot on bbi thinks he's still a franchinse level QB. I have to figure that makes a big difference in rankings.

Overall though, this is BS. The Giants have a lot of high end talent, a lot. Offensively, if SB is as good as advertised, I can't imagine there are teams that share our talent at the skill positions. Our OL should be average at least. Defensively, we are a year removed from having a dominant group. I think you can make the case that we are a step or two below that now, but we still have an elite pass rusher, an elite CB, elite safety and some newfound talent. I do agree with are thin in a lot of places, but so is every team.
Starters are middle of the pack  
PEEJ : 6/28/2018 10:14 am : link
(or better). Quality depth is the issue.
I'll give you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 10:14 am : link
my take on this:

Quote:
Phil Simms, a guy that for some reason opinion
joeinpa : 10:06 am : link : reply
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore


Phil is basically a moron when it comes to football commentary. When Giants fans even seldomly agree with a long-revered star, you can pretty much know he's sucked.

Simms was absolutely brutal as a commentator his last few years. Heck, I still remember driving to the Giants-Vikings championship game and Phil said on a pre-game show: "Sorry Giants fans, but the Vikings are going to win by 3 touchdowns today".

I don't mind predictions, but ones said with such certainty that turn out so poorly and you have to question the guy's competence. Not to mention - when was the last time a home playoff team was routed by 3 TD's?
NO  
mdthedream : 6/28/2018 10:15 am : link
Not even close.
Well let's look while making a few assumptions  
njm : 6/28/2018 10:17 am : link
QB - Average to above average. Eli might not be Top 5, but he's a hell of a lot higher than #28. Backups young but no worse than half of the teams in the league.

RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.

WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average

TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.

OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.

DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.

LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.

CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.

S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.

That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.
The talking heads are always predicting a teams success based on  
SterlingArcher : 6/28/2018 10:19 am : link
last years performance and players added in the off season. No one has a clue what team will do until the games are played. I saw a show that predicted a cowturd - Patriot SB, it is always possible the Pats will get to the SB as long as the have Brady and Bele, but the cowturds? Please, make it stop!
I heard Alan Hahn talking about this last night on 98.7  
The_Boss : 6/28/2018 10:27 am : link
I was surprised the roster is held in such low regard. Hahn was like ďwith the Jets and NYG ranked 28 and 29, we might be in for another one of those lost football seasons againĒ.
If SB  
Keith : 6/28/2018 10:32 am : link
comes close to expectations, he's average to above average?? GTFO with that. He's got elite expectations.
RE: If SB  
njm : 6/28/2018 10:37 am : link
In comment 14001390 Keith said:
Quote:
comes close to expectations, he's average to above average?? GTFO with that. He's got elite expectations.


The GROUP is average to above average.
RE: Well let's look while making a few assumptions  
SGMen : 6/28/2018 10:40 am : link
In comment 14001366 njm said:
Quote:
QB - Average to above average. Eli might not be Top 5, but he's a hell of a lot higher than #28. Backups young but no worse than half of the teams in the league.

RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.

WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average

TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.

OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.

DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.

LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.

CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.

S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.

That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.
Interesting and I pretty much agree. I do believe that OC Hilapio will surprise and be steady. The key is how good can Hernandez be so we can run between the tackles and such.

I do believe Flowers will be better at RT than LT. How much better remains to be seen.
RE: Well let's look while making a few assumptions  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/28/2018 10:42 am : link
In comment 14001366 njm said:
Quote:
QB - Average to above average. Eli might not be Top 5, but he's a hell of a lot higher than #28. Backups young but no worse than half of the teams in the league.

RB - Assuming Barkley come close to expectations average to above average.

WR - There are depth issues, but no WR corps with ODB could be rated #28 in the league. Average

TE - Above average to excellent. There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have this group.

OL- Average to below average. The new faces appear to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade remains to be seen.

DL - Average to below average. Depth issues, but Snacks might be the best run defender in the league.

LB - Average to below average. Biggest question mark on the team with all the new faces.

CB - Lot of question marks. Average to below average.

S - Average to above average. 31 other teams would love to have Collins, but the depth is questionable.

That just doesn't add up to #28. I'd say the range is from #12 to #18 depending on how the question marks get resolved.


I think I'd rank our WRs a little higher and our TEs a little lower than you did, but overall this is a fair and objective assessment. 28th is silly.
Maybe FMIC is right  
joeinpa : 6/28/2018 10:46 am : link
Maybe I just like Simms because, well he s Simms.

But I ve always enjoy hearing him talk about football, and still enjoy his banter with Boomer on their This Week in the NFL show

I realize that Simms is out there some times, and adamant in his opinions, guess I just enjoy his personality and remember how much he meant to Giants fans who stayed loyal to the team 64 through 80

As a fan since 56, I remember those years well.

But in any regard, I think his take on the influence of a bad offensive line was spot on.
Basically  
pjcas18 : 6/28/2018 10:53 am : link
if I had to guess, and I really don't give a shit about lists or rankings, I'd say it's:

Eli
OL
Front 7 on D

I see some people say Eli is average or above. I think that is sort of semantics, but I don't think many people outside of Giants nation consider 37 year old Eli Manning average or above average. I think he's consistently considered below average at this point. Warranted or not is not a debate I' going to have with anyone, but facts are that is how he's universally regarded IMO, outside of NY/Giants fans

OL is a huge crapshoot. For one, Solder was not elite the past few years, and people thinking he'll be a savior might be disappointed. After him there are a lot of questions. If the OL can't protect Eli and can't run block not much else matters. Just looks at Todd Gurley in 2016 vs 2017 to see what happens when teams sell out to stop the run, sure the Rams didn't have a Beckham, but if you don't have time to get Beckham the ball either it's not going to matter.

Front 7 on D lost JPP and struggled to rush the passer with him. Turned over all starting LB's which may be a good thing and might work out better especially with a base D switch, but A lot of unknowns.

So for most of the media/national people I think they view change as risky, but as fans closer to it, we know most of these changes are for the best.

In the end I think the Giants roster should probably be higher than 28, but hopefully the Giants see this and use it to get a chip on their shoulder, nothing better than getting back that 2007 swagger the Giants had in the playoffs.
We've had >6 years  
old man : 6/28/2018 10:54 am : link
Of poor draft talent evaluation; it's going to take about 3 years of finding 3+ good players in each draft, plus 1+ good FA, AND keep our own good players.
If they just acquire the players that do what the philosophy calls for, they don't have to be universally good, just good for us...,aka lil Bill's ' Just do your job'.
With the additions  
allstarjim : 6/28/2018 10:56 am : link
of Solder, Hernandez, Omameh, and Barkley, as well as the new offense installed under Shurmur, the Giants will be able to run the ball. That can't be understated.

I know, I'll get posts about how Darkwa ran the ball for 4.4 ypc and Gallman 4.3 ypc. Well, when a defense knows you have to throw it to win the game, they aren't as concerned with loading the box. The key is to run the ball effectively against a defense that is actively trying to stop the run. We should be able to do that effectively this year.

The roster is good. Both offensively and defensively. There are questions about depth, but they brought in some good players.
RE: RE: If SB  
Keith : 6/28/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 14001398 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 14001390 Keith said:


Quote:


comes close to expectations, he's average to above average?? GTFO with that. He's got elite expectations.



The GROUP is average to above average.


No way. We drafted SB to be a bellcow. Look at Pitt. Does anyone rank their group as average???? The Giants have some depth at RB, but SB should be elite, at least those are the expectations. If, as you say, he comes close to expectations, our GROUP should be in the top 10 in the NFL.
Football is a game of injuries  
Chip : 6/28/2018 11:01 am : link
If you lose all your receivers in week 4 you will have a bad year. If we stay healthy we will win.
Unless..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 11:01 am : link
you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?

If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.
RE: Football is a game of injuries  
The_Boss : 6/28/2018 11:06 am : link
In comment 14001421 Chip said:
Quote:
If you lose all your receivers in week 4 you will have a bad year. If we stay healthy we will win.


While likely true, in all fairness, the season was essentially over before that game. We had yet to win a game.
The Giants roster is not very good  
Essex : 6/28/2018 11:07 am : link
We may overrate it because we are familiar with some guys, but lets face the facts. Eli is old and looked old. We have a stud WR, but we really don't have a legitimate number 2 receiver. We have a good slot receiver and our Tights ends have the potential to be very good. Our offensive line is still questionable at best, we signed Solder and that is an upgrade but I don't think Omanreh is an upgrade over Pugh. Jones at center is average at best. Hernandez is a rookie with growing pains (no idea how he will turn out other than I am optimistic)and Flowers has been terrible at left tackle so why am I going to say he is going to be good at RT. On defense, we have questions all over the place on every unit. Who replaces JPP, even at his poor 2017 level. Eli Apple is really our second corner? I mean the defense was bad last year and I have no reason to think it will be much improved this year. SB is the X factor and I hope he helps, but again I can't plan on that being the case when he has not played a down yet. If he turns into Marshall Faulk overnight, I would raise our rosters expectations to a bit higher, but still think the realistic range for this season is 4-8 wins. Its the NFL, things can change, teams can gel quicky, etc. However, objectively speaking this is not a roster in the top 2/3rd of the league.

It seems that the side of the debate that thinks we have a decent to good roster is premised on us rolling aces with all our draft picks, Eli Manning being significantly better than he has been since the end of the first half of the Washington home game in 2016, the offensive line not being a problem although it is not nearly fixed and Eli Apple suddenly turning it around. I just don't see it all working that way.

This is a multi year process, even in this NFL when fortunes change rapidly.
RE: Unless..  
Essex : 6/28/2018 11:09 am : link
In comment 14001422 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?

If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.


Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT
They do not have a very deep roster  
AnnapolisMike : 6/28/2018 11:13 am : link
Injuries will once again play a major factor as is ALWAYS the case. The years the Giants have avoided a spat of injuries...they have generally been good.

If the Giants avoid injuries to key personnel and the OL improves...they will be good.
Injuries..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 11:17 am : link
are the great intangible for any team. There simply isn't enough depth in the league.

That's why a team in the top 5 in health has been in the SB every year but 2 since 2000.

The bottom line in the NFL - if you stay healthy, you will be competitive. We saw what a difference 2016 had. A team with a putrid offense still made the playoffs due to overall team health.
....  
Toth029 : 6/28/2018 11:20 am : link
It's PFF, who think Evan Engram is the 67th best TE in the league. So that shows something of this analysis.
You are what your record  
Beer Man : 6/28/2018 11:21 am : link
says you are. It will be decided on the field.
You canít take an honest look at this roster and think itís 28th  
BillT : 6/28/2018 11:28 am : link
There are 5 players on this roster that were All Pro just 2 years ago. Along with these players there are this yearís FAs and draft picks and developing players like Engram and Tomlinson. They have enough talent to be in the ďfrom 10-6 to 6-10Ē discussion. Now, folks who think Eli is done could claim this team has no chance to win and that would be fair if it were true. But, Eli has been underestimated before and I think heíll be a solid QB for them.
A ship sinks because of its holes.  
Marty in Albany : 6/28/2018 11:33 am : link
As we all know, injuries and lack of depth have been really big holes in the past.

I think it is generally agreed that we still lack depth and that injuries WILL happen. We just can't predict who will get injured. Unfortunately, wherever injuries strike, it will hurt us because of our lack of depth.

Conclusion, let's temper our enthusiasm for the playoffs and hope for a steady improvement in our team.
RE: RE: Unless..  
Keith : 6/28/2018 11:37 am : link
In comment 14001435 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14001422 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?

If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.



Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT


This isn't the point though. Someone graded the positions and we are commenting on those grades. You don't grade the RB's based on the OL. The RB group with an all world, HOF, generational talent should be excellent, regardless of you the 3rd and 4th RB's are or the OL which gets their own grade.
Eh..  
Sean : 6/28/2018 11:39 am : link
They went 11-5 in 16 & 3-13 in 17 with the majority of both games in both seasons being decided late.

Overstated. These games come down to a few bounces generally.
Nope.  
Dave in Hoboken : 6/28/2018 11:43 am : link
This team is improved from last season in multiple positions. While I wouldn't quite put it at the top tier of most talented teams, I think I'd put it firmly somewhere in the middle. Either way, definitely a sizable improvement from last season, IMO. No reason not to win significantly more games than last season outside of an insane amount of injuries; which is always possible as we've seen over the years.
how many position  
Enzo : 6/28/2018 11:46 am : link
groups do we have that project to be above average? Beyond WR and RB...I'd say zero. Overall depth is a concern as well - especially given the dollars and draft capital we've spent at RB and the previous regime's lousy drafts.
If we see a decent level of improvement...  
M.S. : 6/28/2018 11:48 am : link

...in our offensive line unit, you'll be amazed how all the other units will benefit, thus instantly upgrading everyone, everywhere.


In the meantime, we are what our record is... and the last official one was 3-13.


Here's to a lot more wins in 2018 with a much improved roster!

RE: I'll give you..  
QB Snacks : 6/28/2018 11:49 am : link
In comment 14001359 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my take on this:



Quote:


Phil Simms, a guy that for some reason opinion
joeinpa : 10:06 am : link : reply
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore



Phil is basically a moron when it comes to football commentary. When Giants fans even seldomly agree with a long-revered star, you can pretty much know he's sucked.

Simms was absolutely brutal as a commentator his last few years. Heck, I still remember driving to the Giants-Vikings championship game and Phil said on a pre-game show: "Sorry Giants fans, but the Vikings are going to win by 3 touchdowns today".

I don't mind predictions, but ones said with such certainty that turn out so poorly and you have to question the guy's competence. Not to mention - when was the last time a home playoff team was routed by 3 TD's?


The 2005 giants.
RE: Phil Simms, a guy that for some reason opinion  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/28/2018 11:52 am : link
In comment 14001344 joeinpa said:
Quote:
On football matters doesn t seem to count for much around here anymore, said at the beginning of last season: "A bad offensive line is hard to overcome, it can have a domino affect on a team.

I remember him saying this amid all the speculation that the Giants were really going to be good.

It stuck with me and made me wonder why there was so much optimism in regard to this team.

A better question might be, do the Giants still have one of the worst or in regards to last season, maybe the worst roster on the offensive line.


Why the optimism for Slick's patented WCO-Pray OBJ Breaks a Slant for a TD for a Chance to Win (WCO-POBJBSTDCW) that scored like a whopping 8 points in the last 5 games and got exposed by a not so good GB team + Brandon Marshall?
RE: RE: RE: Unless..  
Essex : 6/28/2018 11:53 am : link
In comment 14001491 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 14001435 Essex said:


Quote:


In comment 14001422 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you have a running back by committee, the group doesn't really matter. Are the rams judged by other guy than Gurley? The Jags by others than Fournette? The Steelers by others than Bell or the Cowboys sans Elliott?

If Barkley is excellent, then the RB corps will be excellent.



Barkley could be excellent but still have only ordinary numbers because the OL is still highly suspect. People think we have fixed our OL, we have made improvements at LT and RG, but besides that I think we downgraded at LG, not sold at Center, and have no idea what to expect at RT



This isn't the point though. Someone graded the positions and we are commenting on those grades. You don't grade the RB's based on the OL. The RB group with an all world, HOF, generational talent should be excellent, regardless of you the 3rd and 4th RB's are or the OL which gets their own grade.

So what? What's the point of having a good rb if you cant use him to be "excellent." Its like judging a car without its engine, the OL is a big component of whether this roster is good or not. To individualize it kinda misses the point of football. You can have Larry Fitzgerald playing with Kurt Warner and they go to the Super Bowl and you can have him playing with Drew Stanton and he becomes more human. Football is a team game, no one individual is going to be better than the parts besides the QB on offense and an Edge Rusher on defense.
RE: how many position  
njm : 6/28/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 14001508 Enzo said:
Quote:
groups do we have that project to be above average? Beyond WR and RB...I'd say zero. Overall depth is a concern as well - especially given the dollars and draft capital we've spent at RB and the previous regime's lousy drafts.


I'd say TE definitely.
RE: RE: how many position  
Toth029 : 6/28/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14001531 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 14001508 Enzo said:


Quote:


groups do we have that project to be above average? Beyond WR and RB...I'd say zero. Overall depth is a concern as well - especially given the dollars and draft capital we've spent at RB and the previous regime's lousy drafts.



I'd say TE definitely.
DL too.

Snacks is top tier DT and Tomlinson had a solid rookie year. BJ Hill looks to be the goods too.
Most fans from other teams think  
Vanzetti : 6/28/2018 12:07 pm : link
1. Giants were idiots to draft Barkley instead of a QB. Because they think Eli is done.

2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.

3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.

4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.

5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.

Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.

You've had..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 12:12 pm : link
almost a polar opposite reaction than what I've seen.

Most other fans I know praised the Barkley pick as they probably heard a lot of the analysts call him the best prospect in the draft. Since I live in Panthers country, most of their fans hated when Gettleman was fired and replaced with Hurney and they think he's a very good GM and wish he was still with Carolina.

I don't really hear much on other positions but I have friends who are fans of the Rams and Bills and both of them said that Barkley will pay immediate dividends for the offense, referencing Gurley and McCoy. They can't believe how much firepower the offense will have.

RE: You've had..  
Vanzetti : 6/28/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14001560 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
almost a polar opposite reaction than what I've seen.

Most other fans I know praised the Barkley pick as they probably heard a lot of the analysts call him the best prospect in the draft. Since I live in Panthers country, most of their fans hated when Gettleman was fired and replaced with Hurney and they think he's a very good GM and wish he was still with Carolina.

I don't really hear much on other positions but I have friends who are fans of the Rams and Bills and both of them said that Barkley will pay immediate dividends for the offense, referencing Gurley and McCoy. They can't believe how much firepower the offense will have.



Interesting. But maybe Southerners are just more polite. :)) Or maybe you have smarter friends :))
RE: Football is a game of injuries  
DonQuixote : 6/28/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14001421 Chip said:
Quote:
If you lose all your receivers in week 4 you will have a bad year. If we stay healthy we will win.


We absolutely sucked before those WRs went down. A number of people on here were concerned that the front office would attribute the meltdown to injuries. They didnít, they cleaned house. If it was all about those injuries then MacAdoo would still be the HC.

This rebuild is going to be a process. Look for improvement and maybe success will follow.
Giants have no chance  
UberAlias : 6/28/2018 12:51 pm : link
Today I read they have one of the worst rosters and worst head coaches in the league.
Most of my Cowboys fan friends  
pjcas18 : 6/28/2018 1:01 pm : link
which I surprisingly have a lot of, were hoping the Giants took a QB and passed up on Barkley.

They all wanted nothing to do with the Giants drafting Barkley.

With the influx of  
Dankbeerman : 6/28/2018 1:05 pm : link
young talent added you can really rank it untill we play a few games. We did replace a bunch of middling vets with younger guys who could be much better but we dont know that yet.

Our Dline and lb corp could be a weakness or a strength depending on the rookies the 2nd year guys and FA pick ups. I will conced Snacks playing well but thw other guys have zero track record.
Not to long  
Giants : 6/28/2018 1:08 pm : link
ago. Reese spent a lot of money on the defense. Now the defense has a lot of question marks. Is anyone surprised ?
Hmm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 1:12 pm : link
is there a point here??

Quote:
Not to long
Giants : 1:08 pm : link : reply
ago. Reese spent a lot of money on the defense. Now the defense has a lot of question marks. Is anyone surprised ?


what does one have to do with the other?
Hm..  
Giants : 6/28/2018 1:30 pm : link

FatMan in Charlotte : 1:12 pm : link : reply
is there a point here??

Quote:
Not to long
Giants : 1:08 pm : link : reply
ago. Reese spent a lot of money on the defense. Now the defense has a lot of question marks. Is anyone surprised ?


what does one have to do with the other?

So your saying spending all that money on Defense and so soon afterwards the defense has tons of question marks means nothing to you. Well ok then
I don't have any delusions that this is a top 10 team  
Matt M. : 6/28/2018 1:56 pm : link
in terms of overall talent. But, as FatMan pointed out, we return perhaps the #1WR in the game, a top 10 TE, a top CB, a still top tier (in my opinion) QB, and a top 5 SS. We've added a few OL via FA and the draft, perhaps the best player in the draft in Barkley, a slew of LBs and DL. We still have holes and are still thin at the bottom of the roster. But, we also improved the top half of the roster considerably. We are really only more talented than 2 teams?

Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.
They have significant upper class talent  
JonC : 6/28/2018 1:59 pm : link
and a thin middle class, including the right side of the OL, the secondary, and I suspect the pass rush.

That said, I think the upgrades and coaching/system changes could be enough to be an 8-8 team, if they've solved the chemistry issues in the building.
RE: I don't have any delusions that this is a top 10 team  
Knee of Theismann : 6/28/2018 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14001725 Matt M. said:
Quote:
in terms of overall talent. But, as FatMan pointed out, we return perhaps the #1WR in the game, a top 10 TE, a top CB, a still top tier (in my opinion) QB, and a top 5 SS. We've added a few OL via FA and the draft, perhaps the best player in the draft in Barkley, a slew of LBs and DL. We still have holes and are still thin at the bottom of the roster. But, we also improved the top half of the roster considerably. We are really only more talented than 2 teams?

Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.


Agreed. If we can stay healthy I think we go 10-6. Maybe not good enough to beat out Philly for the division, but a playoff berth for sure (again, if healthy).
I can't take that list seriously...  
bw in dc : 6/28/2018 2:16 pm : link
They have New England rated the 4th best. Sorry, but NFW.

They are, at best, bottom of the top half. There are a lot of holes on that defense.
Also remember  
Knee of Theismann : 6/28/2018 2:18 pm : link
OBJ was ranked #77 on NFL's player-voted top 100 recently. People have short memories. That's in spite of setting all sorts of records his first three years and then being on pace for another 100 catch 1200 yard season before being injured. Similarly, 3-13 in 2017 spells low expectations for 2018, regardless of anything else this team has done in recent years.
RE: They have significant upper class talent  
QB Snacks : 6/28/2018 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14001728 JonC said:
Quote:
and a thin middle class, including the right side of the OL, the secondary, and I suspect the pass rush.

That said, I think the upgrades and coaching/system changes could be enough to be an 8-8 team, if they've solved the chemistry issues in the building.


This is a good post.
Better coaching will also help the team. Mcadoo was not a good  
fredgbrown : 6/28/2018 2:58 pm : link
coach. I am hoping better coaching adds at least 1 to 2 more wins with the talent we have. Maybe a 8-8 team with the talent to a playoff 10-6 team.
RE: Better coaching will also help the team. Mcadoo was not a good  
fredgbrown : 6/28/2018 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14001782 fredgbrown said:
Quote:
coach. I am hoping better coaching adds at least 1 to 2 more wins with the talent we have. Maybe a 8-8 team with the talent to a playoff 10-6 team.


Mcadoo loved to gamble and go for the TD instead of kicking the FG.
Disagree  
WillVAB : 6/28/2018 3:56 pm : link
These players were recently all-pro:

Snacks
Vernon
Ogletree
Collins
Jenkins

Thatís 5 of 11 starters on defense. Tomlinson is a plus player. Apple was solid as a rookie and bad last year. Thatís a strong core of talent on defense ó which doesnít include any of the rookies or FA acquisitions.

Offensively, Beckham is an all-pro caliber player. Barkley is expected to be an all-pro player. Engram is a plus TE expected to improve. Sheppard is a plus player. The OL should be improved at 3 spots, maybe 4 if Flowers works out at RT.

I see a disconnect with these types of articles, particularly when it comes to fantasy. I know fantasy is fantasy and all that, but take a look at the ADP of guys like Beckham, Barkley, Sheppard, and Engram. Look at the projected stats of those guys. Then look at Eliís ADP and his projected stats. Simply doesnít add up mathematically.
RE: Also remember  
Keith : 6/28/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 14001745 Knee of Theismann said:
Quote:
OBJ was ranked #77 on NFL's player-voted top 100 recently. People have short memories. That's in spite of setting all sorts of records his first three years and then being on pace for another 100 catch 1200 yard season before being injured. Similarly, 3-13 in 2017 spells low expectations for 2018, regardless of anything else this team has done in recent years.


Not a great example. OBJ was ranked as the #77 player last year. He played 4-5 games(at like 75%) and he was still ranked the 77th best player. The fact that he was even on that list shows respect from some of his peers.
RE: Most fans from other teams think  
JOrthman : 6/28/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14001550 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
1. Giants were idiots to draft Barkley instead of a QB. Because they think Eli is done.

2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.

3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.

4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.

5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.

Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.


I would say most fans don't go past one. Most fans don't follow other teams like they do their team.
I will let you know when football season starts...  
Aqua Giants : 6/28/2018 4:33 pm : link
That is no easy set of games to start off the schedule. I am certainly not excited. Philly isnt even in the same league as us.
O'line  
JOrthman : 6/28/2018 4:43 pm : link
I think people always make the mistake judging offensive lines on individual talent, which I think is a mistake. It's not how well the individuals are, it's how good they work together as a unit. The 2004-2011 line wasn't necessarily great as individuals, but were great as a group.

I don't think there is anyway to judge the line until some games start.
RE: I don't have any delusions that this is a top 10 team  
Matt M. : 6/28/2018 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14001725 Matt M. said:
Quote:
in terms of overall talent. But, as FatMan pointed out, we return perhaps the #1WR in the game, a top 10 TE, a top CB, a still top tier (in my opinion) QB, and a top 5 SS. We've added a few OL via FA and the draft, perhaps the best player in the draft in Barkley, a slew of LBs and DL. We still have holes and are still thin at the bottom of the roster. But, we also improved the top half of the roster considerably. We are really only more talented than 2 teams?

Fine. We'll be the least talented team to win a division and playoff game.
Plus, I neglected to include Snacks as part of the top tier players returning.
I do enjoy how people are just assuming Hernandez is an automatic  
Greg from LI : 6/28/2018 4:48 pm : link
upgrade before he sets foot on an NFL field.
To be..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/28/2018 4:50 pm : link
fair, the bar is really low on how good Hernandez has to be for it to be an upgrade.
I  
AcidTest : 6/28/2018 4:55 pm : link
don't think so, but as someone said, injuries are the great leveler. Depth around the league is nonexistent. So much of success in football is just being healthy. On paper, I like the changes we've made. But many of the players we're counting on to improve the Giants are rookies and free agents. I always thought this was a two year process. I'm very happy with the changes Gettleman and the FO have made.
I'd put our over/under at 8.5  
Alan in Toledo : 6/28/2018 5:48 pm : link
slightly above average. let's see whether the OL comes together and what injuries occur.
Jorthman  
joeinpa : 6/28/2018 5:49 pm : link
If Webb or Lauletta aren't the guy, I kind of agree with #1
You are what your special teams say you are.  
Alwaysblue22 : 6/28/2018 5:54 pm : link
Now that Tom Quinn is out of here we will get a better read on the quality of roster we have. You will be surprised how much better a roster looks like when the special teams do their job properly. Field position is Vital in pro-football and when you consistently lose the field position game your team will suck regardless of who starts on Defense and Offense. Having a better LT to protect our QB will make the entire roster look better too. We will see how this SP unit performs under Special Teams Coordinator Thomas McGaughey. With the Giants it has always been wait and see. Because this team is like a box of chocolates; you never know what your going to get.
RE: Jorthman  
JOrthman : 6/28/2018 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14001937 joeinpa said:
Quote:
If Webb or Lauletta aren't the guy, I kind of agree with #1


What I meant by that comment was that most fans don't evaluate as deeply on other teams as going beyond that first point. As I've moved around over my lifetime and traveled, it is very rare to find true NFL fans. Most are fans of their team or casual fans. It's rare to find knowledgeable fans who can talk intelligently about other teams without parroting talking heads on ESPN or some talk radio show.
They are better  
RetroJint : 6/28/2018 6:25 pm : link
& if they stay healthy they will win 7 or 8 . As I see the team , here is how I see their units. Call it +, minus or ( ) or nothing , which means league average.

QB: ( ). Being kind here
RB + They better be.
WR : + Only with Beckham , who I give a 60/40 shot of missing a large chunk of the season
TE: ( ). Engram has more to prove. Ellison is a journeyman who is getting way too much pub.

OL: (-). Somewhat unfair because they will have to protect an immobile QB, but from C moving R they are suspect . Consider the other lines in the division , each of whom have quaterbacks who are mobile .
DL: ( ) Run stoppers-sure- but pass rushing ?
LB: ( ) Better but still questionable .
DB: ( -) In a pass- crazy league , the Giants might have the worst secondary of them all.
K: (-) PK is a choke
Return men & Coverage ( )

Bills ranked 16th - insanity reigns.  
Red Dog : 6/28/2018 6:28 pm : link
They rank the Buffalo Bills 16th overall. That's insane for a team that lacks an established QB, has worse WRs than almost any team in the league and nothing special at TE, has worse OL problems than the GIANTS, doesn't have a lot on the DL or at LB, has only one CB (Tre White) that is worth a damn, and lacks depth at S.

They should have been well into the bottom ten.

These ratings are insanely stupid.
Wrong or not, I donít get why some seem surprised  
The_Boss : 6/28/2018 7:06 pm : link
This was a bad team last year and management is committed to a very average 37 year old QB in decline. 95% of what weíll see this summer moving forward will be negative regarding this team and its 2018 prospects. Donít be shocked if most publications peg us for dead last in the NFC East this year.
I actually dont think  
capegman : 6/28/2018 7:25 pm : link
the team had a bad roster last year. Injuries destroyed the roster. With no injuries I think it was at least mediocre.
How  
Toth029 : 6/28/2018 9:06 pm : link
Is Rhett Ellison a journeyman when he's only played with two teams?
As my late, great brother said in the summer of 2011  
exiled : 6/29/2018 6:37 am : link
"The last time I thought the Giants were this bad going into the season, they won the Super Bowl."

Go Giants!

The Giants won a Super bowl  
Alwaysblue22 : 6/29/2018 11:37 am : link
While finishing dead last in rushing in the NFL and as a wild card team. They won another SB with a 9-7 record as a wild card team. Its not what your roster looks like on paper its how they play together. The difference between th best team in the NFL and the worst is not as great as it is in college football. Sometimes the difference is the play of three of four guys in certain positions. At least this 2018 team is no longer a one-dimensional team with a better LT and a RB who must be feared by the opponent. This should translate into more wins.
I'd Take .500  
Rong5611 : 6/29/2018 1:01 pm : link
Thinking they can be a .500 team. How/Why?

A)Stay healthy...injuries killed us last year.

B) They need to be able to run the ball, with SB and the OL upgrades that's the expectation. We should be able make teams put 8 in the box if SB is as good as he appears to be.

C) "B" takes alot of the heat off Eli and opens up it up for OBJ, Engram and Shepard.

D) Stop the run. Investment in LB's will help. We are thin in the secondary though.

C) The first half of the schedule is BRUTAL. Jacksonville at the home opener is a very tough out. If they can come out at .500 or a game or two lower, 8 & 8 is in the cards, maybe an outside shot at the Wild Card (Philly is going to repeat the division win).
Well thats a kick in the groin.  
TMS : 6/29/2018 5:16 pm : link
Tend to be more upbeat than that with our draft and FA pickups. Better management personnel etc, etc. But if the bad old days are back I will watch the Yankees.
To me, it was the perfect storm....  
Doomster : 6/29/2018 10:08 pm : link


Poor coaching, the OL, poor play calling/preparation, the OL, injuries, the OL, guys having down years, the OL, etc......

Anything that could go wrong, went wrong.....an int, a fumble, a strip sack, a 14 yard completion on 3rd and 15, a completion that leaves one second on the clock, and you guessed it, a fg attempt from 61 yards that was good, etc.

5 losses by 7 points or less.......9 games where the opposition scored 24 points or less......and yet, it resulted in a 3-13 record....
roster rankings and paper rosters  
mdc1 : 7/1/2018 11:48 am : link
don't win football games, effort does. Let's see it.
RE: Most fans from other teams think  
montanagiant : 7/1/2018 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14001550 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
1. Giants were idiots to draft Barkley instead of a QB. Because they think Eli is done.

2. The Giants OL will still be terrible because all they did was switch out Solder and Omameh for Richburg and Pugh, while still keeping Flowers.

3. Gettleman is a buffoon, whom the game has passed by.

4. They have a lack of talent at LB yet they are switching to a 3-4.

5.They have no depth in the secondary and two head cases starting at CB.

Not saying a I agree with any of that except #5. But I have a lot of friends who are fans of other teams and that's what I hear them saying. Obviously, non_giants fans don't know the team as well as we on BBI do, but they do have an outside perspective.

That is 180 from what I have heard from fans of other teams. Especially the Cowboy and Eagle fans I know hate that we completely upgraded our line got what many are calling the best complete RB from the last 10 years and took our LB crew to a much better level.
RE: I do enjoy how people are just assuming Hernandez is an automatic  
montanagiant : 7/1/2018 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14001893 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
upgrade before he sets foot on an NFL field.

How could he not be given what we had there last season
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