I feel like if the Knicks rebuilt a little better this could have been them.
he is not going to the lakers because of how they rebuilt...
You speak so definitively but things aren't as cut and dry as your black and white opinions. He gave Philly a serious look meaning that was a factor in how he was evaluating things. You don't know.
I feel like if the Knicks rebuilt a little better this could have been them.
he is not going to the lakers because of how they rebuilt...
You speak so definitively but things aren't as cut and dry as your black and white opinions. He gave Philly a serious look meaning that was a factor in how he was evaluating things. You don't know.
how serious of look did he give if he didnt wven attend a meeting in la with them today?
him for doing this especially when there were clearly other better spots for him to win (no one can argue that LA is better suited to win than Philly) but this NBA system just sucks. They may be flourishing right now financially but it's going to come back to bite them in the ass sooner or later.
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
him for doing this especially when there were clearly other better spots for him to win (no one can argue that LA is better suited to win than Philly) but this NBA system just sucks. They may be flourishing right now financially but it's going to come back to bite them in the ass sooner or later.
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
oh i am not ripping him at all, completelt understand why he did it, i just thinknitnia funny how all lakers fans now think they are going to the finals
Could you imagine having the luck that the Lakers have had? Â
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
I'd rather have Fultz and Saric than Kuzma, Ingram and Hart.
him for doing this especially when there were clearly other better spots for him to win (no one can argue that LA is better suited to win than Philly) but this NBA system just sucks. They may be flourishing right now financially but it's going to come back to bite them in the ass sooner or later.
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
It’s an abstract crazy plan but I love the idea someone floated where right before the nba playoffs all the non playoff teams get thrown into some kind of round robin tournament where the winner(s) receive better lotto position and maybe a playoff appearance or maybe some kind of wild card. The nba would need to get creative but I’d love this if it ever came to pass.
Surprise or Cinderella team even possible? Can a basketball version of the 2008 Giants actually win? I don’t watch as much as I use to so I am sincerely asking.
Wilt, KAJ, Magic, Worthy, Shaq, Kobe...and now LeBron follows Kobe.
And the Knicks have had Patrick Ewing and...Jeremy Lin for a couple of months.
It's really interesting the way LA has kicked NY's ass as a destination for NBA players. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, LeBron and even Kobe to some extent chose LA as their spot. Kareem is the only one who I think rated NY on a par with LA - the Knicks just got outbid. Hollywood, beaches, sunshine beats Big Apple and "world's greatest arena".
they would be maxed out with lebron and boogie and then wouldnt be able to sign kawhi
I can't imagine they would be that stupid. If LeBron could get Boogie to stop being so lazy and selfish all while coming off a Achilles tear, he really would be the greatest player of all time.
WHere too many teams are virtually trying to lose. The players are trying but the mgmt behind them isn’t. That’s just terrible. You add that tournament, teams that are stuck in the middle but still playing at a respectable professional level would have EVERYTHING to play for. Lately all I hear is fans bitching and condemning teams and franchise for trying to win games. That’s an awesome and fun debate to have with someone. Yay. Great sport.
they would be maxed out with lebron and boogie and then wouldnt be able to sign kawhi
No, they would just stretch Deng and get space. People are also sleeping on the idea that if Cousins goes there, a number of vets who want a ring will be willing to sign minimum salary deals to ride LeBron's coattails.
Surprise or Cinderella team even possible? Can a basketball version of the 2008 Giants actually win? I don’t watch as much as I use to so I am sincerely asking.
A 7 game series pretty much negates that. Could the '07 Giants have won a best of 5 or 7 against that Pats team?
RE: RE: Could you imagine having the luck that the Lakers have had? Â
Wilt, KAJ, Magic, Worthy, Shaq, Kobe...and now LeBron follows Kobe.
And the Knicks have had Patrick Ewing and...Jeremy Lin for a couple of months.
It's really interesting the way LA has kicked NY's ass as a destination for NBA players. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, LeBron and even Kobe to some extent chose LA as their spot. Kareem is the only one who I think rated NY on a par with LA - the Knicks just got outbid. Hollywood, beaches, sunshine beats Big Apple and "world's greatest arena".
Yep. I mean the same can't be sad for hockey, football, and baseball, but when it comes to basketball? Players have always opted for LA over NY.
Does Philly see an opportunity to make the Finals and give up a nice haul to the Spurs to get Kawhi for a year? Or do they just allow Boston to be the favorites?
Does LA grab Cousins and whoever else they can get in an attempt to challenge Houston/GS this year or do they keep trying for Kawhi?
This was the pretty obvious outcome but it'll still be fun to see how it shakes things up around the league. We'll finally get a non-Lebron team out of the east and his streak of NBA Finals is likely over.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
I seriously doubt the Lakers or LeBron wants to "punt" a season of his winding down career. That's why the Spurs could get a haul from them... in theory.
Unless the Celtics are willing to take him without an extension, I don't see any other place that helps the Spurs franchise as much as the Lakers.
I'd rather have Fultz and Saric than Kuzma, Ingram and Hart.
Fultz is not the player we thought he was going to be... certainly not the one I saw at Washington against my Zags. He's STILL working with a shooting coach to fix his yips. He's basically a throw-in at this point.
they would be maxed out with lebron and boogie and then wouldnt be able to sign kawhi
No, they would just stretch Deng and get space. People are also sleeping on the idea that if Cousins goes there, a number of vets who want a ring will be willing to sign minimum salary deals to ride LeBron's coattails.
huh? stetching deng does not give them max money...
plus they have to stretch deng along with renouncing randle to get cousins
Surprise or Cinderella team even possible? Can a basketball version of the 2008 Giants actually win? I don’t watch as much as I use to so I am sincerely asking.
A 7 game series pretty much negates that. Could the '07 Giants have won a best of 5 or 7 against that Pats team?
And LA is a great place to live if you have his kind of money. Watching Lebron for all of his career he doesn't come across as a guy who wants what goes with playing in a NE sports market. Philly can be a very difficult place to play.
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
Popovich detests the Lakers; no way he trades his best player to them
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
Popovich detests the Lakers; no way he trades his best player to them
Pop will do what’s best for his organization. If they get Ingram and picks, I think they would do that. Ingram just looks like a player that would blossom under Pop
There are people here who truly believe Lebron picked a lesser roster? See you in 24 hours. If you think he went to la without having all the pieces in place you’re kidding yourself. Is he GM Lebron that controls everything everywhere he goes or is he not?
There are people here who truly believe Lebron picked a lesser roster? See you in 24 hours. If you think he went to la without having all the pieces in place you’re kidding yourself. Is he GM Lebron that controls everything everywhere he goes or is he not?
It’s hysterical isn’t it? I mean do people believe that lebron is going to sacrifice titles at the end of the year for no reason. Every state has amazing schools where his son could go to.
It may not be this year but at the latest next year he will have his next super team.
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Um, no. That is a garbage deal only a Sixers fan would come up with. Fultz doesn't have much trade value, Saric isn't enough as the main piece, and that 1st is not worth a lot since it will be in the late 20s. They only have their own 1st rounders and a 1st round pick in 2021 from the Heat.
especially because comments like he moved to LA For his family make no sense. I mean it’s exponentioally better than Cleveland but he’s also a god there and if you guys weren’t paying attention he’s richer than god. This makes sense only if he already knows who else is joining him. It’s obvious
Boston should be the favorites in the East for the next few years so it makes no sense for Kyrie to want to leave when he has a much clearer path now for the prime of his career.
Gotta admit, as a neutral NBA fan, I’m really looking forward to what that team might look like and how they match up in the West. Should be pretty fun
is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
What could the Lakers offer that would be any better than that? At least you could dream with Fultz. At this point you can't dream with anything the Lakers would give them. Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, and 1st round pick does what, exactly, for the Spurs? Teams don't make trades anymore so they can be average. Teams would rather tank than guarantee the 6th seed in a conference for years to come. In any trade, they will need to get a guy that could POTENTIALLY be a star, otherwise they wont make the deal. And they certainly shouldnt make it with a team in their own conference.
The NBA is now completely about stars. If you don't have 1, you have no chance. Building a solid team is not what teams are looking to do. As great as the Spurs have been, they never win a single title if they didn't tank the year Robinson got hurt.
but unless they can get Kawhi, and I don't see any way they can compete with the Sixers offer on top of not seeing Popovich be willing to send him to the Lakers, they will not compete with the Warriors in a 7 game series.
The Warriors will still have the 2nd-5th best players on the court against the Lakers and LeBron. I hate Green but he's a better piece on the Warriors than anyone on the Lakers.
Ingram put up a ton of empty stats. I dont see him ever being anything more than solid.
many are factoring in that LeBron's best years are likely behind him, not ahead of him.
They will need him to play at the level he did last year for 4 years just to have a chance to beat the Warriors in a 7 game series. Guy has a ton of milage on him and at some point he is going to slow down. The Warriors best players all have their best years ahead of them age wise
Lebron is a flat out fraud. He does this every time he has changed teams. He conspires with other players and tries to create his own team. Wade and bosh admitted they knew they were going to join forces. Kevin live said he had prior talks with lebron before he was traded.
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
Lebron is a flat out fraud. He does this every time he has changed teams. He conspires with other players and tries to create his own team. Wade and bosh admitted they knew they were going to join forces. Kevin live said he had prior talks with lebron before he was traded.
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
Serious question, what is it people are "falling for" with LeBron? The entire basketball world knows LeBron detests languishing on bad teams and will pull every lever to pick his teammates, whether that be moving teams or cornering ownership to overspend.
Is anyone under the impression James wants to play on shitty teams and doesn't meddle with the personnel?
LeBron isn't chasing a ring here. There were a couple teams that woudl give him a better chance of winning one.
He's doing it for his post playing career.
In a 7 game series, without injuries, it's hard to see the Lakers putting together a roster for 2018 that can beat the Warriors.
Cousins, while immensely talented, is not a winning ballplayer.
He's not chasing rings, hes doing it for this post playing career... that itself makes him a fraud. Go chase f*cking rings, you are a professional athlete, his post playing career will take care of itself. He's Lebron for christ sakes
I think there are better teams out there. LA didn't even make the play-offs last year. He probably makes them a contender this year but, are they going to beat the Warriors?
He better have inside info that more players are on the way?
He did what was best for his family. People will find a way to hate.
Right? It won't be long before we read that going to the Lakers is somehow taking the easy way out.
Do you honestly believe the only reason he did this was for family and post career?
Those maybe factors but lebron has one mission in basketball. That’s to win titles. He isn’t going to LA expecting to lose. And RVERYONE knows he ain’t winning with the group LA has now.
Lebron is a flat out fraud. He does this every time he has changed teams. He conspires with other players and tries to create his own team. Wade and bosh admitted they knew they were going to join forces. Kevin live said he had prior talks with lebron before he was traded.
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
Serious question, what is it people are "falling for" with LeBron? The entire basketball world knows LeBron detests languishing on bad teams and will pull every lever to pick his teammates, whether that be moving teams or cornering ownership to overspend.
Is anyone under the impression James wants to play on shitty teams and doesn't meddle with the personnel?
Look at this thread. People seriously believe he only chose LA for family and/or post career.
He chose LA because it’s the place where he can have it all - and that’s include recruiting players to win with. Whether it be this year or next.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
but unless they can get Kawhi, and I don't see any way they can compete with the Sixers offer on top of not seeing Popovich be willing to send him to the Lakers, they will not compete with the Warriors in a 7 game series.
How will they have trouble competing with a trash offer of Saric and Covington? Even throwing in Markelle Fultz couldn't spice that up, even if they were willing to trade him.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
Offseason isn’t over yet...
Before you put all your eggs in the LeBron-Masterminded-a-Superteam basket -- just so you can later diminish him when he loses against a better team in the playoffs -- keep in mind that players have enjoyed going to the Lakers for decades, and joining LeBron for a decade. A player or two joining them should be neither a surprise or a smoking gun.
How many signed as free agents tho in the last 35 years who were in their primes and were top players in the league.
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
I didn't say the Lakers have been historically active in signing big free agents, especially since they usually just trade for players. I said players enjoy going there. No one who gets traded to the Lakers pouts about it.
If another really good player signs or gets traded to them, try not to see it as proof that James just wants to live a life absent of challenges.
RE: Only 3 players have ever made 1st team all nba Â
The East has been terrible for most of my lifetime. It's not free agency. It's poor management. There's free agency in the western conferent too, and that hasn't ruined anything.
the whole "he didn't go to LA to win, he went there for his post career", like his brand would somehow be diminished if he finished off his career in Cleveland.
His future and his grandsons grandson future is probably more secure than your average ham and egger. He went to LA to win. He's bringing other players in with him. Always has. Always will.
if Leonard or another high profile player is traded or signs with LA it doesn’t make LeBron a fraud, whatever that is supposed to mean. You can say he took the easy way to a championship in Miami by signing with Bosh and Allen which I agree with but he still had to perform to win. And after his block on Iguodala in Game 7 a few years ago repping his home city after years in Miami, leading his team back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team, any fraud talk nonsense should be dead and buried.
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
How about this fact with all his reported power and nba skills when all was said and done the top NBA FA’s all said No Thanks.
Who are you referring to? Paul George?
The Lakers better not screw around and wait for next offseason. Lebron is turning 34. Go all in for Leonard. I'd also be going after Walker. This starting 5 can win a title.
Kemba
KCP
Lebron
Leonard
Mcgee
And vets/ ring chasers will always sign up to play in LA.
if Leonard or another high profile player is traded or signs with LA it doesn’t make LeBron a fraud, whatever that is supposed to mean. You can say he took the easy way to a championship in Miami by signing with Bosh and Allen which I agree with but he still had to perform to win. And after his block on Iguodala in Game 7 a few years ago repping his home city after years in Miami, leading his team back from a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team, any fraud talk nonsense should be dead and buried.
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
Well said. Some just don't like the guy personally and will find any way they can to rip him. These are the same that whined that he was hiding out in the East, never facing the best competition. Now he's going to the much tougher conference with an unproven roster, so time to find another angle. Hence, he's a fraud! Give me a break.
By all accounts he's told the Lakers to not give up assets now for Kawhi. It's why he signed a four year deal when he never did that for Cleveland. To show that he's committed and they can build something more lasting than what they had with the Cavs.
If that's the case, he's essentially throwing a year away late in his career. They're not winning the title this season. If he was just chasing a ring there were 4-5 teams that would have been better destinations. I'm sure he would have liked Paul George to be there waiting for him but that didn't work out. He went anyway because this has seemingly always been his plan, regardless. He's earned that right to choose his own future. All of these great players have. The fact that bothers so many people is very strange
that they will in one breath tell us what a competitor LeBron is and in the next one say we can't fault him for going to LA to set up his post-NBA career.
Sure we can. And it highlights the farce that the NBA is for free agency.
The NBA has become a place where friends band together on a handful of teams and tilt the competitive balance. You watch the Lakers over the next 4 years, LeBron will get a few people to come over and make a last run at a title. He'll likely fail, but the Lakers will be competitive again, he'll keep his star shining and then morph into a post career in entertainment.
LeBron has waved the white flag. The next few years will be for show - get the Lakers into the playoffs and band a few friends together to get them to where they might face the Warriors deeper in the playoffs - then he'll ride off into the sunset.
People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
The fact people are missing is lebron controls teams and fan bases and when he can’t win, he leaves - plain and simple. It’s fucking shitty to a fan base if you ask me.
Lebron doesn’t wave the white flag. He and magic have a plan. This is the first step.
IF so, why is this a bad thing? If he just languishes on a terrible roster that he has to drag through the playoffs, you'd approve then? He wouldn't be a fraud?
and it signals they'll do their best to get Leonard, including waiting a year and signing him. It does signal he's giving up a year of his career, as Kyle said, but this is both a basketball and post-hoops career decision for him. The team they're building for next season will be competitive, and it's about getting another year of seasoning for the young core and seeing where they're at a year from now.
they decide to move Randle in a sign-and-trade and for what assets in return. Not going to get Leonard this route, but I've heard they really like Aaron Gordon and might try to swap RFAs.
LeBron has done a tremendous amount for Cleveland.. Â
Lebron doesn’t wave the white flag. He and magic have a plan. This is the first step.
IF so, why is this a bad thing? If he just languishes on a terrible roster that he has to drag through the playoffs, you'd approve then? He wouldn't be a fraud?
Because the tilt of the NBA is at an all time low as far as competiveness. The east sucks now where you have two teams competing to get pummeled in the finals. Players controlling where they go and who they play with is not good for the sport. And no player in the history has controlled a sport than Lebron.
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
nobody here is angry with Lebron. Sad, sure. But they understand and are grateful for what he gave them. This isn't like 210
Yep Cleveland fans are going to be fine with winning 15 games next year.
Is that what I said?? Actually they'd probably rather bottom out now and win 15 games than languish with 30 wins and the 10th pick in the draft.
I'm guessing you didn't mind the lack of parity in the league when your team was winning 6 straight titles in full seasons that MJ played. This is what the NBA is about, always has been a stars league
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
Ingram put up a ton of empty stats. I dont see him ever being anything more than solid.
His team stunk, how was he ever going to put up anything other than empty stats? I'm not saying he'll be a superstar, but that is his ceiling. If SA trades Kawhi to LA, Ingram HAS to be part of the package. I'd be interested to see how he does with Pops and a world-class shooting coach.
Everyone on the planet knows LA is a more attractive choice than Cleveland. The only player in the NBA with any benefit to playing in Cleveland is James. For literally every other player it takes a premium in dollars and James being there for it to be a destination.
The Lakers have better young players in-place, and will attract better free agents.
Put it this way, this Lakers team starting this instant wouldn't get swept by Warriors. That's a great place to start for James.
James has one last shot at getting a ring, and the chances are exponentially higher in LA. Cleveland is going to win 20 games next year and Lue will get fired.
And when it's all over James will be remembered as a great Laker, live in the Hills, be a star.
nobody here is angry with Lebron. Sad, sure. But they understand and are grateful for what he gave them. This isn't like 210
Yep Cleveland fans are going to be fine with winning 15 games next year.
Is that what I said?? Actually they'd probably rather bottom out now and win 15 games than languish with 30 wins and the 10th pick in the draft.
I'm guessing you didn't mind the lack of parity in the league when your team was winning 6 straight titles in full seasons that MJ played. This is what the NBA is about, always has been a stars league
They beat five different teams in the finals though.
And dynasties are fine. But most dynasties were done by great drafting and smart moves. Who did Jordan team up with?? They drafted basically everyone. The biggest free agent signing was Ron Harper.
that shows the NBA's popularity is mainly driven in the postseason.
Quote:
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Since moving to ESPN/ABC, the regular season ratings are some of the lowest they've ever been, and were dwarfed by the ratings when the games were on NBC.
But the postseason has had a lot of success with increasing viewership.
Basically, much like an NBA game, the first 3/4ths is nearly uncompelling to watch and the last 1/4th is what drives the excitement.
Nowadays, people basically know the outcome and tune in to see the climax.
Might as well be a porno where people fast-forward through the bad acting and clothed scenes for the moneyshot.
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
The quality of play is fantastic. There are unreal players in the league. However, how many tines was it pointed out that the playoffs sucked balls this year? Not only were many series not close but neither were the games.
The game being popular to fans isn’t a concern to me. Competitiveness and quality of play is. Individual play is more important than team play.
Dating the most popular girl in school may be fun at first but how many times does she turn into a pain in the ass?
His greatness as a basketball player is undeniable.
However, his competitive spirit should always be called into question based on his track record. He's not the only one, as they've all followed his lead, but this modern age of colluding with other stars to form a power team is weak. His tenure in Miami a disappointment because he, Wade and Bosh, not only talked about, but should've won more than 2. That finals loss to the Mavs was inexcusable. All the whining about poor LeBron playing on teams just not cut out to win titles? Oh well. He has lived in the East which has been nothing more than a cake walk to the Finals out side of a few years of some good Celtics teams. Oh, and that he had to face the Golden State juggernaut? He brought (the Durant version) of that team on himself by making it a thing for the best players in the world to join up with other already established groups when the going got tough.
And before anyone says, it was also pathetic when Malone and Gary Payton and whoever else tried it with the Lakers. If that group had won a ring it would have been garbage.
If LeBron stayed in Cleveland that whole time and had his 1 ring there to show for it, I would think more highly of his career than I do with his 2 additional manufactured rings down in Miami.
Among the kids I know these days the NBA is the most popular Â
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
The quality of play is fantastic. There are unreal players in the league. However, how many tines was it pointed out that the playoffs sucked balls this year? Not only were many series not close but neither were the games.
The game being popular to fans isn’t a concern to me. Competitiveness and quality of play is. Individual play is more important than team play.
Dating the most popular girl in school may be fun at first but how many times does she turn into a pain in the ass?
I agree the talent in the league is at an all time high. a lot of the lack of quality in the playoffs can be attributed to the Warriors just being far too good. That's what happens when the second best team in the league joins a 73 win team.
We did get two seven game conference finals this season at least.
But I do think there's some revisionist history about how good the games in the past were. Those early and mid 2000s games were absolute rock fights. Check out some of the scores from those playoff games. The Pistons clinched a trip to the Finals with a 73-65 win over Indiana. There was more parity, but the game was in a worse place
They beat five different teams in the finals though.
And dynasties are fine. But most dynasties were done by great drafting and smart moves. Who did Jordan team up with?? They drafted basically everyone. The biggest free agent signing was Ron Harper.
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But don't you have to give credit to the Bulls and fault the Cavs? The Bulls delivered Jordan Pippen- an all time great player and a player who fit perfectly next to him. Lebron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland- who was his Pippen? Kyrie who Cleveland got by pure luck and then proceeded to trade for a bag of balls.
Not to mention the shrewd trades for Rodman and Grant along with delivering him an all time head coach. Who was even Lebron's second best player pre-Miami? Mo Williams?
I think a better run organization would have been able to keep Lebron. But they did a really bad job of building around him and Gilbert is a gigantic asshole.
How were grant and pippen shrewd moves? They drafted them. And those were shrewd and Irving was luck? In fact, lebron chose to play with Irving. Not vice versa.
Lebron controlled many of the personnel decisions in Cleveland. He publicly acknowledged who he wanted for and the team went on and got those player or re-signed them. So you have to put a ton of fault in him too. And each time he saw a scenario where his team couldn’t compete....
He left. Every time. What other mega star in the history of the game has done what he has done?
The answer is simple. No one. He controlled everything within his team from playing, who to play with, coaching, and personnel decision.
The sob story that lebron hasn’t had enough to play with needs to end. He hasn’t played for too many coaches and GMs to absolve him.
His greatness as a basketball player is undeniable.
However, his competitive spirit should always be called into question based on his track record. He's not the only one, as they've all followed his lead, but this modern age of colluding with other stars to form a power team is weak. His tenure in Miami a disappointment because he, Wade and Bosh, not only talked about, but should've won more than 2. That finals loss to the Mavs was inexcusable. All the whining about poor LeBron playing on teams just not cut out to win titles? Oh well. He has lived in the East which has been nothing more than a cake walk to the Finals out side of a few years of some good Celtics teams. Oh, and that he had to face the Golden State juggernaut? He brought (the Durant version) of that team on himself by making it a thing for the best players in the world to join up with other already established groups when the going got tough.
And before anyone says, it was also pathetic when Malone and Gary Payton and whoever else tried it with the Lakers. If that group had won a ring it would have been garbage.
If LeBron stayed in Cleveland that whole time and had his 1 ring there to show for it, I would think more highly of his career than I do with his 2 additional manufactured rings down in Miami.
+1
It’s also hard to play the “languishing on bad teams” card when he hand picks the players for said teams. Look at the mid-season trades Lebron engineered on Cleveland last year.
I have to chuckle at the bafflement some people have Â
at why a lot of fans don't like Lebron for going to the Lakers. It's the Lakers for crissakes!! They're the Cowboys of football and their fans are the absolute worst. They've never, ever known an extended period of losing. No shit people don't want them to improve. How shocking!
And, again, the vast majority of us go into each season knowing that our teams have absolutely no chance to even attempt to compete. None, zero, zilch, nada. What the hell reason does a Knicks fan, or a Nuggets fan, or a Grizzlies fan, or a Pacers fan, etc., have to bother paying attention to the league?
Well maybe for you Greg, But not for most. If he joined the Celtics, Rockets, Sixers, heck if he joined the damn Portland Trail Blazers, the complaints would be the same
because they are run by an incompetent fool and have been mostly a mess for 20 years. They would be a destination for these types of decisions if there was a semblance of leadership in place. The situation is similar to Cleveland. They just got lucky Lebron is from the area and felt some obligation to return.
FWIW, I think it was Jalen Rose that said he thinks Durant eventually ends up in New York if/when he leaves Golden State.
There would have been complaints wherever he went, yes, but the fact that it's the Lakers makes it much louder. People HATE the Lakers, and people especially hate Lakers fans.
Why? That roster simply isn’t good with no surefire way to improve. And do you really trust Koby Altman and Dan Gilbert?
I truly don’t understand this criticism. I think of all us in similar situations in our work life would choose the Lakers and not think twice. Better city, better chance to succeed, better management, better opportunity to make money, makes his family happy. You wouldn’t sign up for that?
Why stay in Cleveland? To be “loyal” ? What’s funny is someone started a post a few weeks ago asking if he should jump to a competitor company. Pretty much everyone replied that he should do what’s best for himself and family and that loyalty doesn’t mean squat unless the company compensates you fairly for it. How it’s different?
Michael Jordan is no doubt one of the best basketball players that ever lived. He was also gifted a remarkable situation where he had Pippen, Grant, Paxson, and Phil Jackson. Then he left to play baseball and his team won over 50 games without him . And then he came back to Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Kerr, and Jackson.
And he was able to do so in a time that had much more restricted player mobility.
And then LeBron comes along with more hype and early attention than perhaps any athlete in sports history, is put in a terrible situation with terrible ownership and management, and is told that rings are all that matter.
And he has to compete in the most wide open era of player mobility, with the highest concentration of international basketball talent in the history of the sport. And no matter what decisions he makes, simple-minded and biased fans harangue him.
Athletes today have more scrutiny and attention on them with social media, 24/7 sports shows, and smartphones that make every person in public a potential paparazzo.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Yeah, the Knicks have been a disaster. I must have missed, however, what part Lakers' current management played in their storied history.
Magic Johnson played a pretty big role...
And Rob Pelinka's building a pretty impressive resume with the Lakers. The clarkson and russell trades are looking very good. Kuzma and Hart are 2 very good late 1st round picks. And signing Lebron in your second offseason isn't bad...
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
I agree about the "Decision" but since then he's done everything right in my opinion. Went back to his hometown and delivered the trophy he promised. And this time around no hoopla at all, made an under the radar decision to go to LA for family reasons. Didn't chase a super team to try and get another ring or two before retiring. He's matured professionally to go along with being a role model off the court. While I'm still not a huge fan I've grown to respect him tremendously.
RE: even more ridiculous are the attacks on his character Â
Athletes today have more scrutiny and attention on them with social media, 24/7 sports shows, and smartphones that make every person in public a potential paparazzo.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
Just look at his 2003 draft classmates. Melo looked completely washed up last year and sounds like may be waived. DWade is a role player coming off the bench. Bosh is out of the league ( due to a heart condition) but still. And Darko is probably smoking a pack a day back in Serbia.
Meanwhile Lebron just played all 82 games, dragged a team to the finals that had no business being there and is playing some of the basketball of his life. Pretty damn remarkable.
should be he essentially made a team give out a bunch of awful contracts and since they have been proven awful he is now leaving the team with said awful contracts.
he did not help the kyrie situation at all leverage wise
each mid season he stops giving full effort and the team sucks... he then complains for them to go get more guys... they trade assets to try and help...
so while he gave cleveland a title and more then one could imagine as a cav fan-- he exploited his position and being that he sucks as lebron the GM- leaves them in shambles
why anyone is puzzled by why people don’t like him. Plenty of people hated Jordan. Plenty hate Tom Brady. Great players are always hated.
I don’t “hate” LeBron but I do enjoy making fun of all the ridiculous stuff he’s been a part of (the decision, his shitty selfie videos, his crab walking, etc). Just because he’s the best player in the world doesn’t mean I have to love him. I feel he same about Brady, who’s a big douchey weirdo. I respect his career, but fuck him too.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
His character has been questioned multiple times on this thread and in every LeBron conversation. I think his character off the court is a better indicator that the comments about his basketball-related character being absurdly inaccurate.
People don't have to like LeBron as a basketball player. But it has been obvious for some time that many people never want to see him be considered better than Jordan and because of that, they find ways to criticize him for anything he does.
The hurdle he has to clear to be on Jordan's level in their nostalgic eyes is constantly changing, if not completely illusory. Jordan is the GOAT depsite not having as many rings as Russell, but for LeBron to be in the conversation with Jordan, he has to get as many rings as Jordan.
So, when LeBron tries to put himself in positions where his supporting cast and infrastructure is as relatively dominant compared with the rest of the league as Jordan's supporting cast was to the rest of the league in his time, he's considered a fraudulent ring-chaser.
And now, when LeBron doesn't go to the team that gives him the best chance to win, he's a fraud for thinking about other factors.
you say LeBron exploited his position in Cleveland. I ask, who got more out of LeBron being in Cleveland: LeBron, Dan Gilbert, or the fans?
Greg: As a Knicks fan, I never said you should be cheery about it or that you should care one way or the other. Plus, it would be a fool's errand to ask you to be cheerful about anything, ha.
If Jordan fans think he’s better, who cares? There’s weird rationales for everything. Fact is I was a kid when I followed Jordan who was a sports God to me and I’ve been an adult watching the LeBron NBA which I can’t stand. It’s impossible for me to compare the two eras not just from a rules and competition standpoint but moreso because as I’ve grown my tastes and toleration of sports has changed.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
if you want to think Jordan is better than LeBron, have at it. I won't say you're wrong.
You're right that people have weird rationales for their sports opinions, but at least you're up front about it. My issue is when people use they weird rationales as if they are grounded in objectivity.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
Jordan and Pippen basically with some years with Kukoc as another legitimate threat and Rodman who was great at what he did but pretty one-dimensional. Horace Grant was also a terrific player.
I think the overall Bulls rosters are overrated in hindsight due to how great Jordan was.
How about when the Bulls traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright which infuriated Jordan?
The era was also largely dominated by big men. Dream, Ewing, young Shaq, Zo, Robinson, Smits.
The big men on those Bulls teams? Cartwright, Wennington, Longley, the guy who went missing. Not exactly a who's who of talent.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
But Cleveland could have always pushed back against him and simply made better moves. Firing their experienced GM a few days before the draft is just nuts. And letting a novice GM trade Irving was just an all around poor decision.
If they surrounded Lebron with Paul George and kept Kyrie or at least gotten good players in return, it would at least makes this decision to leave tougher. They made it easy on him.
And yes I'm sure lebron could have done more to smooth things over with Kyrie or not pushed as hard for certain moves. But good organizations can make those situations work. Cleveland didn't.
one dimensional? He was near the end of his career, but he was still the best rebounder in the league and a great defender on a team who didn't need his offense. Ron Harper was a strong perimeter defender and triangle offense point guard. Steve Kerr is still the most accurate 3-point shooter in NBA history. They also had Phil Jackson as a coach.
LeBron has absolutely had as much control as a player as anyone in history. And he has made some bad GM-type decisions, for sure. And he deserves criticism for them.
But there's this idea that because he has so much influence that it means he should still have won as many titles as Jordan if he were as good as Jordan, and that doesn't track with how basketball works.
It doesn't matter how much control LeBron has-- he could have been the actual GM-- he wasn't building a team that could compete with the Warriors or the 2014 Spurs, for example. Even the most brilliant GMs in history can only do so much in certain situations. A lot of it comes down to timing.
like it’s supposed to offset LeBrons Miami decision. Pippen was a draft day trade, not some all star they traded for during his prime. He’s credited Jordan as to how/why he became a better nba player, who’s start in the nba out of central Arkansas was very lackluster.
The two situations couldn’t be any more different.
of sports fans get upset when things are manipulated.
I know plenty of fans who hated Jordan for trying to dictate things, for leaving the game, and for his comebacks with the Bulls and Wizards.
Heck, we have Giants fans who dislike Eli to this day for what he did in the draft.
I don't get why Jordan and the Bulls are always brought into these discussions. LeBron's actions stand on their own. The cherry picking of teammates. The ridiculous "Decision". The continual complaints about being a victim.
You want to feel bad about a situation - look at the fans who dislike players, not for their actions, but because of the media hype (part of the "Decision" blowback can be lumped here)
Think about fans who disliked Tebow, not for things he did, but because ESPN was blowing him 22 hours a day. Think about fans who disliked Favre as helicopters hovered above his meetings. Fans basically don't like artificial hype or manipulation.
Kerr was an exceptional 3 point shooter who was a floor-spacing component and did so effectively for the Bulls and the Spurs, albeit it in an era that relied far less on the 3. No one is clamoring to build their team around him, but when you are a loaded team, he's just one more specialist/weapon in the arsenal.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
Kerr was an exceptional 3 point shooter who was a floor-spacing component and did so effectively for the Bulls and the Spurs, albeit it in an era that relied far less on the 3. No one is clamoring to build their team around him, but when you are a loaded team, he's just one more specialist/weapon in the arsenal.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
The bulls had the first pick after Jordan left the 2nd time as well.
And Steve Kerr was worse at his role than Kyle Korver was. So if he we are going to prop up Kerr, we have to for the likes or Korver and a ray Allen who was MUCH better than Steve kerr.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.
I'm sure LeBron very passionately expressed a desire Â
to get certain players when he was in Cleveland. But if the Cavs were a team not run by morons, they either wouldn't have listened, or would have acquired them only within reason.
very difficult to like Lebron at all. He just is so annoying on so many levels. Of course he is supremely talented and all that, for reasons I can’t really explain I find him to be the most unlikable “superstar” in any sport I watch. Whenever someone asks who is the worst I instantly think Brady but then when Lebron is brought up, I realize it’s him by a mile. Maybe it’s the lack of loyalty or his entire stupid WWE act before games but I just hate him. Brady has had flashes of supreme arrogance “we are only gonna score 14 points” but all in all he usually isn’t that torturous. The Lakers are a perfect fit for his stupid ass.
to get certain players when he was in Cleveland. But if the Cavs were a team not run by morons, they either wouldn't have listened, or would have acquired them only within reason.
You’re kind of bringing out my point. The Cavs have two choices. Either ignore lebron and his desires and risking pissing him off and leaving. Lebron has always had too much control and puts teams in a bind. Sure Cleveland could have stronger management but how many teams do??? Miami and SA are on the short list. Not many teams do.
It’s almost they had to appease him just to hope to keep him. I think it’s wrong.
RE: RE: RE: RE: One main problem Lebron pushed for Â
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.
Um, yes. Lebron wanted Korver and Jamison. The rest of them besides Hickson and Jackson never even played with lebron. Because they were traded on draft day.
Cleveland couldn’t build a team around lebron during a draft which is what I’ve been trying to say.
that not very many people are going to agree that Cavs would have been a well-run team and were just as talented as the Jordan-era Bulls, but were ultimately undermined by LeBron.
Let me get this straight, Lebron forced and made all those picks and draft day trades? He asked them to trade Tyus Jones for Cedi Osman??
Shannon Brown played his rookie year and then was traded in the Ben Wallace deal. It’s lebrons fault the Cavs traded for Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Joe Smith? And I’m sure Lebron demanded to play with Jamison...
Lebron brings pressure on your franchise to build a winner but he didn’t force them to make these bad trades and poor draft picks.
The Cavs did a bad job surrounding him talent- especially his first tenure. And this past year was disastrous in terms of personnel moves for Cleveland.
the result was a team with no leverage despite having a big asset.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
this feels a bit personal as I know you are friends with, Altman. Correct?
i have a bit of an axe there... but nothing i said is about feelings, mainly facts--- so maybe a small caveat on my commentary--- but none of it is false.
LeBron has been allowed by desperate ownership and management to dictate his roster from the moment he went to Miami. LeBron realized he was bigger than the team, and acted accordingly.
He's been terrible at it. LeBron the player has bailed out LeBron the GM a few times, and credit to how otherworldly he's played.
There's no comparison to the Jordan Bulls situation. The Bulls had Jerry Krause not listening to Jackson or Jordan. Krause made a number of decisions LeBron would have gotten his GM fired over.
In the end, the Cavs pay the most. They have Kevin Love, George Hill, Tristan Thompson, and JR Smith making north of 14M a year.
And the only asset from the Irving deal is Collin Sexton, a good but not super star potential player.
the result was a team with no leverage despite having a big asset.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
How is it lebrons fault they had “no leverage”? Which isn’t even true. Kyrie has 2 years left on his deal. Lebrons the one said to bring him to training camp. The Cavs had plenty of leverage, they just made a bad trade. And then followed that up with more mad trades at the deadline.
But at least they have Colin Sexton now...
And now it’s his fault his teammates played like shit? Are you serious? What more could he have done during that playoff run.
Let me get this straight, Lebron forced and made all those picks and draft day trades? He asked them to trade Tyus Jones for Cedi Osman??
Shannon Brown played his rookie year and then was traded in the Ben Wallace deal. It’s lebrons fault the Cavs traded for Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Joe Smith? And I’m sure Lebron demanded to play with Jamison...
Lebron brings pressure on your franchise to build a winner but he didn’t force them to make these bad trades and poor draft picks.
The Cavs did a bad job surrounding him talent- especially his first tenure. And this past year was disastrous in terms of personnel moves for Cleveland.
The moves you are bringing up is public knowledge that lebron wanted. So yes lebron played a HUGE role in these trades and FA signings. Your inability to understand this is not my problem anymore.
LeBron has been allowed by desperate ownership and management to dictate his roster from the moment he went to Miami. LeBron realized he was bigger than the team, and acted accordingly.
He's been terrible at it. LeBron the player has bailed out LeBron the GM a few times, and credit to how otherworldly he's played.
There's no comparison to the Jordan Bulls situation. The Bulls had Jerry Krause not listening to Jackson or Jordan. Krause made a number of decisions LeBron would have gotten his GM fired over.
In the end, the Cavs pay the most. They have Kevin Love, George Hill, Tristan Thompson, and JR Smith making north of 14M a year.
And the only asset from the Irving deal is Collin Sexton, a good but not super star potential player.
This is a fantastic post. Probably said it a lot better than me.
the result was a team with no leverage despite having a big asset.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
Thanks hit. I believe this isn’t the first time this happened either.
And all that said, I don't blame James I blame Dan Gilbert. He gave control of his franchise to James, foot the bill, and comes out the other side with a broken team.
Winning that ring was probably worth it, and there's nothing shameful about a string of four finals appearances. He made a lot of money in the process. He's also on the hook for a lot. And he forfeited a half-decade of young talent.
With a top 10 protected pick next year, the Cavs should really move Love. The irony is the team with best assets to deal with might be the Celtics again.
Cause they were allowed to play defense when he played. James attacks the rim (yes he is great) but he can’t be touched or hacked the way Jordan did and he still was unstoppable.
LeBron voicing particular ideas about getting particular players. I can even imagine him voicing them really really loudly. And I can imagine the amount of pressure that puts on a team that is upper-tier and championship-caliber simply because LeBron is on it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
LeBron voicing particular ideas about getting particular players. I can even imagine him voicing them really really loudly. And I can imagine the amount of pressure that puts on a team that is upper-tier and championship-caliber simply because LeBron is on it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
The Cavs have a 35-year-old GM who's only real experience is within the org. They have an owner who virtually shit his pants in the media the last time James walked away. And they had James who literally walked away once.
No one in that organization was really in a position to run an organization. Team James took major advantage of that power vacuum.
But James's position as a player isn't unique (even if not equalled).
Kevin Durant isn't being super shy on holding pretty big cards on how the Warriors operate while he's there. There's a reason he won't sign long term and there's a reason Myers has to be OK with it.
LeBron voicing particular ideas about getting particular players. I can even imagine him voicing them really really loudly. And I can imagine the amount of pressure that puts on a team that is upper-tier and championship-caliber simply because LeBron is on it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
Lebron had Cleveland by the balls and he knew t.
You keep pitching this like it's some Machiavellian effort on his part. I see it as more likely being the results of the intrinsic pressures that come when your team has one of the top 3 (arguably, best 2) players in history (perhaps coupled with possibly one of the bottom 200 management/ownership teams in history?).
Is there any evidence that LeBron ever offered ultimatums like "I have no idea what your existing free agent plans are and I don't care -- you sign Antawn Jamison NOW or I'm out!" Or is it possible that, as particular free agents became available, he had opinions (incorrect as they may be) about which would be good signings and then made these opinions known, like other players sometimes do?
LeBron voicing particular ideas about getting particular players. I can even imagine him voicing them really really loudly. And I can imagine the amount of pressure that puts on a team that is upper-tier and championship-caliber simply because LeBron is on it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
Lebron had Cleveland by the balls and he knew t.
Or make better moves while allowing some input from Lebron. They made this decision easy for him with the current roster.
That he wants a player signed, he is basically holding his team hostage. You may not agree with my opinion, but Cleveland was forced to do what Lebron wanted.
That he wants a player signed, he is basically holding his team hostage. You may not agree with my opinion, but Cleveland was forced to do what Lebron wanted.
It’s very, very shitty.
I understand your point but they still could have done a better job of team building around him.
From everything that I read, Lebron demanded the Kevin Love trade, Mike Miller signing, including JR in the Shumpert trade and the minor signings like James Jones and Perkins.
He didn't force them to miss on every draft from 2004-2009, or trade Kyrie Irving for a bag of balls. They also had a trade done with the Pacers for Paul George but refused to include a future unprotected pick.
That he wants a player signed, he is basically holding his team hostage. You may not agree with my opinion, but Cleveland was forced to do what Lebron wanted.
It’s very, very shitty.
I understand your point but they still could have done a better job of team building around him.
From everything that I read, Lebron demanded the Kevin Love trade, Mike Miller signing, including JR in the Shumpert trade and the minor signings like James Jones and Perkins.
He didn't force them to miss on every draft from 2004-2009, or trade Kyrie Irving for a bag of balls. They also had a trade done with the Pacers for Paul George but refused to include a future unprotected pick.
He also made it publicly known he wanted jr Smith and Tristan Thompson re-signed.
RE: Not sure the Irving situation is a good example Â
it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
This is a perfect example of something a strong GM like Krause would have put an end to immediately.
Someone in the organization needed to be strong enough to sit them both down and resolve it. Instead you lose 2 all stars in exchange for getting swept in the finals, a luxury tax roster that would be lucky to win 30 games, and an 8th overall pick.
Really try that on for size. The Cavs couldn't have cooked up a bigger disaster without a Dolan running the show.
RE: Not sure the Irving situation is a good example Â
it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
It isn't bullshit at all. Open your eyes, the players run this league. Once a relationship is fractured, its over. Now I'm not claiming the Cleveland FO didn't also compound the shit scenario, but their hand was forced, I don't know how you can ever disagree with that.
And that's what ultimately makes the NBA a shitty league.
with Kawhi Leonard behind closed doors that's apparently bad enough where he didn't try and come back in 2017/18, basically making SA forfeit the season, and is still under contract for next year that he refuses to honor. That's 2 years worth of games that he can single handedly fuck up just by waking up one day and deciding he will never play for the team again.
Different situation, but the result is the same. Even worse for SA is that he won't sign an extension if traded, most likely. Great league.
Would not pick up his player option-
The pacers wanted unprotected- the Cavs asked lebron to pick it up so they weren’t left losing George and lebron and not having a pick.
But he decided not to commit to that- so instead the trade didn’t happen and now lebron is cool to sign a 3+ year deal with the lakers..... actually allowing a team to breathe and build instead of holding hostage. Essentially he was always going to la.
Interestingly Chris Sheridan called it via sources a year ago and was right.
RE: RE: RE: Not sure the Irving situation is a good example Â
it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
It isn't bullshit at all. Open your eyes, the players run this league. Once a relationship is fractured, its over. Now I'm not claiming the Cleveland FO didn't also compound the shit scenario, but their hand was forced, I don't know how you can ever disagree with that.
And that's what ultimately makes the NBA a shitty league.
their hand was forced to make a lousy deal? Nonsense. And of course they didn't have to trade Irving when they did. there are always alternatives. Especially when you control the guy for two years. LMA wanted out of San Antonio and the Spurs smartly waited him out and repaired the relationship.
The situation was not good
Could it have been handled better? In a perfect world yes, in millennial social media world... not easy. They wanted a josh Jackson or Tatum type. They lost leverage and instead tried to stay competitive and plan for the future— crowder the 3 and d guy they needed who has been a good player with everyone but lebron/lue—- it was the mess of the deal- and Brooklyn was about 4 slots higher than Cleveland expected. They thought they were getting top 4 possibly.
Harry hindsight always makes the best deals though
to go from not being able to enjoy watching the Lakers Â
The players absolutely run the league, and to an extent always have. The difference is there are players willing to take less money and fewer years to exert leverage on owners.
What's happened is a phenomenon, and if you are owner who lucks out, it's not a problem for you. There's very little an owner can do to make a team desirable. What's Clay Bennet doing that's so otherworldly?
The owners have one very viable option to limit the players, and that's punishing themselves. Start with giving up picks for signing free agents like MLB.
The deal was first-guessed as a lousy trade by many...excluding of course Koby's friends in the media who were too busy high-fiving each other about all the "assets" they got in return to realize the haul was full of holes. Face it, you had a guy way in over his head influenced by an idiot owner making a trade with the master.
The deal was first-guessed as a lousy trade by many...excluding of course Koby's friends in the media who were too busy high-fiving each other about all the "assets" they got in return to realize the haul was full of holes. Face it, you had a guy way in over his head influenced by an idiot owner making a trade with the master.
Regardless of who’s right this entire debate is about how Irving forced their hand. He refused to play for them. Leonard refused to play for SA. Both teams lost leverage and immediately were in a lesser position to negotiate with another team. That’s the point.
The deal was first-guessed as a lousy trade by many...excluding of course Koby's friends in the media who were too busy high-fiving each other about all the "assets" they got in return to realize the haul was full of holes. Face it, you had a guy way in over his head influenced by an idiot owner making a trade with the master.
Regardless of who’s right this entire debate is about how Irving forced their hand. He refused to play for them. Leonard refused to play for SA. Both teams lost leverage and immediately were in a lesser position to negotiate with another team. That’s the point.
Kawhi situation is totally different and virtually unprecedented. You have no idea if Kyrie would have pulled the same stunt, and you're only grouping them to try and prove your shitty point. The Cavs had plenty of leverage. They were simply too incompetent to make use of it.
you are a weird fucking dude. Hitdog just posted about how ugly the situation was with Irving and somehow you are oblivious to reality. Why are you denying it so vehemently? I can’t repeat myself enough to you, the Cleveland FO made a bad situation worse, but they were in fact forced to trade him.
And I’m not sure if you’ve payed any attention to Irving but he’s a strange, weird, sensitive person. We are going to see more of this happen, not less. The NBAs rules and structure let it happen. I’d argue his situation opened the door for more players doing it, like we are seeing now with Leonard.
the team loses all leverage on what to do with him. IMO, Kyrie was never playing for the Cavs again.
A lot of people were all over Isiah's jock after his 2016-2017 season (not me!! handpat on my back!) Crowder was the ideal 3 and D that Lebron coveted, and they got a top 10 pick. Might not be the best package - but they werent going to get much better the longer Kyrie sat.
What made the trade even funnier was that they traded Thomas for a bag o' shitand gutted their roster for shit player because Bron Bron wanted changes midseason. Crowder and Rose played very well in the playoffs. Clarkson and Hood were DNP's. Thomas could have provided a scoring spark Cleveland desparately needed.
They werent beating the Warriors, but the players they got rid of were massive upgrades than the scrubs Lebron wanted....haha
with Kawhi Leonard behind closed doors that's apparently bad enough where he didn't try and come back in 2017/18, basically making SA forfeit the season, and is still under contract for next year that he refuses to honor. That's 2 years worth of games that he can single handedly fuck up just by waking up one day and deciding he will never play for the team again.
Different situation, but the result is the same. Even worse for SA is that he won't sign an extension if traded, most likely. Great league.
After all the Spurs did for Leonard, and they were hugely instrumental (if not entirely) in developing his game, Leonard is showing what an ungrateful, disloyal jerk off he is. The Spurs are one of the great organization in sports. One of the most player friendly organizations in sports. If you can't get along with the Spurs, it's you, not the Spurs...
though so little is known about what happened that it’s hard to see what led to this. He’s one of my favorite players but it’s going to be hard to root for him after this.
Lakers renouncing Randle was about cap space for '19 Â
With JR now off the books, they can create enough cap space to sign Leonard by simply stretching Deng (he will also finally be an expiring $18.8M contract trade chip a year from now).
I would've preferred they had a sign and trade teed up for JR, knowing for months he wanted to be gone. To simply grant his wish and cut him loose for nothing in return is irritating, that's where the inexperience of Magic/Pelinka surfaces.
Asshole in sports, he is a sensational player, one of the greatest players ever to play the game and probably even a better player the Jordan, not better then Wilt though, but this guy is a total me first and only guy, he could care less about anyone and anything, his act is so pathetic that there is no way I would ever waste my time and watch this asshole. His departure from the Cavs the first time with the who gets him night on ESPN, and it would be that asshole network to cover it, took the cake for all time. I hope he never wins another championship and I hope the guy gets hurt and is out of basketball, because he is ruining the game and the competition, he is dictating how and who wins, and the league is allowing it because they are making money hand over fist, but who gives a shit about the sport anymore, not the players, not the owners, and not the fans, so they all deserve one another. The last great TEAM was the Knicks.
Don't think they deserve a bit of luck, they did plenty of winning from 2000 to 2010. They sure has hell found a pot of gold tho
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Lakers deserve a bit of luck.
Don't think they deserve a bit of luck, they did plenty of winning from 2000 to 2010. They sure has hell found a pot of gold tho
He’s clearly kidding
this move is purely off the court, and the people kissing magics ass is going tk be nauseating
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
he is not going to the lakers because of how they rebuilt...
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I feel like if the Knicks rebuilt a little better this could have been them.
he is not going to the lakers because of how they rebuilt...
You speak so definitively but things aren't as cut and dry as your black and white opinions. He gave Philly a serious look meaning that was a factor in how he was evaluating things. You don't know.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Agree. This isn't about winning.
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In comment 14003806 NoGainDayne said:
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I feel like if the Knicks rebuilt a little better this could have been them.
he is not going to the lakers because of how they rebuilt...
You speak so definitively but things aren't as cut and dry as your black and white opinions. He gave Philly a serious look meaning that was a factor in how he was evaluating things. You don't know.
how serious of look did he give if he didnt wven attend a meeting in la with them today?
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Source?
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
We'll see you about May 15th, enjoy your nap
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
oh i am not ripping him at all, completelt understand why he did it, i just thinknitnia funny how all lakers fans now think they are going to the finals
And the Knicks have had Patrick Ewing and...Jeremy Lin for a couple of months.
What move could the Knicks make that moves the franchise to LA? Lebron didn’t choose LA because of any moves they made the last 5 years.
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is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Source?
hahahahahaha
They aren't even a threat to Warriors right now.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
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is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
I'd rather have Fultz and Saric than Kuzma, Ingram and Hart.
The off-season is more entertainign than the entire regular season and most of the playoffs. Something is wrong with that.
I dont know how to fix it, but something needs to be done.
It’s an abstract crazy plan but I love the idea someone floated where right before the nba playoffs all the non playoff teams get thrown into some kind of round robin tournament where the winner(s) receive better lotto position and maybe a playoff appearance or maybe some kind of wild card. The nba would need to get creative but I’d love this if it ever came to pass.
And the Knicks have had Patrick Ewing and...Jeremy Lin for a couple of months.
It's really interesting the way LA has kicked NY's ass as a destination for NBA players. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, LeBron and even Kobe to some extent chose LA as their spot. Kareem is the only one who I think rated NY on a par with LA - the Knicks just got outbid. Hollywood, beaches, sunshine beats Big Apple and "world's greatest arena".
I can't imagine they would be that stupid. If LeBron could get Boogie to stop being so lazy and selfish all while coming off a Achilles tear, he really would be the greatest player of all time.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
No, they would just stretch Deng and get space. People are also sleeping on the idea that if Cousins goes there, a number of vets who want a ring will be willing to sign minimum salary deals to ride LeBron's coattails.
A 7 game series pretty much negates that. Could the '07 Giants have won a best of 5 or 7 against that Pats team?
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Wilt, KAJ, Magic, Worthy, Shaq, Kobe...and now LeBron follows Kobe.
And the Knicks have had Patrick Ewing and...Jeremy Lin for a couple of months.
It's really interesting the way LA has kicked NY's ass as a destination for NBA players. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, LeBron and even Kobe to some extent chose LA as their spot. Kareem is the only one who I think rated NY on a par with LA - the Knicks just got outbid. Hollywood, beaches, sunshine beats Big Apple and "world's greatest arena".
Yep. I mean the same can't be sad for hockey, football, and baseball, but when it comes to basketball? Players have always opted for LA over NY.
Does LA grab Cousins and whoever else they can get in an attempt to challenge Houston/GS this year or do they keep trying for Kawhi?
This was the pretty obvious outcome but it'll still be fun to see how it shakes things up around the league. We'll finally get a non-Lebron team out of the east and his streak of NBA Finals is likely over.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
I seriously doubt the Lakers or LeBron wants to "punt" a season of his winding down career. That's why the Spurs could get a haul from them... in theory.
Unless the Celtics are willing to take him without an extension, I don't see any other place that helps the Spurs franchise as much as the Lakers.
I'd rather have Fultz and Saric than Kuzma, Ingram and Hart.
Fultz is not the player we thought he was going to be... certainly not the one I saw at Washington against my Zags. He's STILL working with a shooting coach to fix his yips. He's basically a throw-in at this point.
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they would be maxed out with lebron and boogie and then wouldnt be able to sign kawhi
No, they would just stretch Deng and get space. People are also sleeping on the idea that if Cousins goes there, a number of vets who want a ring will be willing to sign minimum salary deals to ride LeBron's coattails.
huh? stetching deng does not give them max money...
plus they have to stretch deng along with renouncing randle to get cousins
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
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Surprise or Cinderella team even possible? Can a basketball version of the 2008 Giants actually win? I don’t watch as much as I use to so I am sincerely asking.
A 7 game series pretty much negates that. Could the '07 Giants have won a best of 5 or 7 against that Pats team?
Uh yes
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is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
Popovich detests the Lakers; no way he trades his best player to them
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
I know right. No one can claim he’s chasing now. He’s going to a young team. That’s been in the lottery
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
They won’t be shitty. There’s more to come
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In comment 14003854 dep026 said:
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
I know right. No one can claim he’s chasing now. He’s going to a young team. That’s been in the lottery
Lol yeah he isn’t planning on recruiting anyone else.
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In comment 14003810 Jon in NYC said:
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is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
Popovich detests the Lakers; no way he trades his best player to them
Pop will do what’s best for his organization. If they get Ingram and picks, I think they would do that. Ingram just looks like a player that would blossom under Pop
Now we can take down that silly ass banner,maybe let King Kong use it as handkerchief.
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In comment 14003872 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14003854 dep026 said:
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
I know right. No one can claim he’s chasing now. He’s going to a young team. That’s been in the lottery
Lol yeah he isn’t planning on recruiting anyone else.
He has no guarantee of another star though. Have to respect him for making this move and to the West. Which is completely loaded
He has no guarantee of another star though. Have to respect him for making this move and to the West. Which is completely loaded
Respect is given to people who don’t jump from team to team when things go bad on the previous one.
Lebron wasn’t signing with LA if he didn’t think he could win a title. No chance in fucking hell.
There is more in the works. He did this with Miami and with Cleveland the 2nd time. The only constant is people falling for it.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Didn't you switch what teams you root for?
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Didn't you switch what teams you root for?
Nope never have. Your probably thinking of Vin.
It’s hysterical isn’t it? I mean do people believe that lebron is going to sacrifice titles at the end of the year for no reason. Every state has amazing schools where his son could go to.
It may not be this year but at the latest next year he will have his next super team.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Um, no. That is a garbage deal only a Sixers fan would come up with. Fultz doesn't have much trade value, Saric isn't enough as the main piece, and that 1st is not worth a lot since it will be in the late 20s. They only have their own 1st rounders and a 1st round pick in 2021 from the Heat.
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In comment 14003872 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14003854 dep026 said:
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
I know right. No one can claim he’s chasing now. He’s going to a young team. That’s been in the lottery
Lol yeah he isn’t planning on recruiting anyone else.
Like who?
Gotta admit, as a neutral NBA fan, I’m really looking forward to what that team might look like and how they match up in the West. Should be pretty fun
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is going to go to the Sixers for Fultz, Saric and a 1st, which is the correct move for everyone.
Lebron is setting up his post NBA life, which I don't blame him for. But this wasn't about winning.
Unless the Spurs are just so stingy that they won't trade Kawhi to the Lakers under any circumstance, Fultz/Saric/1st pick is a pretty garbage return.
The Spurs need to get smart (not be like the Mets) and get over the whole Laker thing. Now is the time to extract a shitload from them. Get Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, AND a 1st round pick.
What could the Lakers offer that would be any better than that? At least you could dream with Fultz. At this point you can't dream with anything the Lakers would give them. Kuzma, Ingram, Hart, and 1st round pick does what, exactly, for the Spurs? Teams don't make trades anymore so they can be average. Teams would rather tank than guarantee the 6th seed in a conference for years to come. In any trade, they will need to get a guy that could POTENTIALLY be a star, otherwise they wont make the deal. And they certainly shouldnt make it with a team in their own conference.
The NBA is now completely about stars. If you don't have 1, you have no chance. Building a solid team is not what teams are looking to do. As great as the Spurs have been, they never win a single title if they didn't tank the year Robinson got hurt.
LeBron isn't chasing a ring here. There were a couple teams that woudl give him a better chance of winning one.
He's doing it for his post playing career.
In a 7 game series, without injuries, it's hard to see the Lakers putting together a roster for 2018 that can beat the Warriors.
Cousins, while immensely talented, is not a winning ballplayer.
The Warriors will still have the 2nd-5th best players on the court against the Lakers and LeBron. I hate Green but he's a better piece on the Warriors than anyone on the Lakers.
Ingram put up a ton of empty stats. I dont see him ever being anything more than solid.
They will need him to play at the level he did last year for 4 years just to have a chance to beat the Warriors in a 7 game series. Guy has a ton of milage on him and at some point he is going to slow down. The Warriors best players all have their best years ahead of them age wise
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
Serious question, what is it people are "falling for" with LeBron? The entire basketball world knows LeBron detests languishing on bad teams and will pull every lever to pick his teammates, whether that be moving teams or cornering ownership to overspend.
Is anyone under the impression James wants to play on shitty teams and doesn't meddle with the personnel?
LeBron isn't chasing a ring here. There were a couple teams that woudl give him a better chance of winning one.
He's doing it for his post playing career.
In a 7 game series, without injuries, it's hard to see the Lakers putting together a roster for 2018 that can beat the Warriors.
Cousins, while immensely talented, is not a winning ballplayer.
He's not chasing rings, hes doing it for this post playing career... that itself makes him a fraud. Go chase f*cking rings, you are a professional athlete, his post playing career will take care of itself. He's Lebron for christ sakes
Right? It won't be long before we read that going to the Lakers is somehow taking the easy way out.
He better have inside info that more players are on the way?
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He did what was best for his family. People will find a way to hate.
Right? It won't be long before we read that going to the Lakers is somehow taking the easy way out.
Do you honestly believe the only reason he did this was for family and post career?
Those maybe factors but lebron has one mission in basketball. That’s to win titles. He isn’t going to LA expecting to lose. And RVERYONE knows he ain’t winning with the group LA has now.
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Lebron is a flat out fraud. He does this every time he has changed teams. He conspires with other players and tries to create his own team. Wade and bosh admitted they knew they were going to join forces. Kevin live said he had prior talks with lebron before he was traded.
There has been rumors that him and Durant have talked already. We all know Kawhi wants to go to LA. I am sure lebron has talked to Boogie.
Everyone falls for this everytine he changes teams. Lebron is one of the biggest phonies ever. And once at least two more guys come, maybe people will realize it.
We all know the saying... when the going gets tough..... lebron gets going.
Serious question, what is it people are "falling for" with LeBron? The entire basketball world knows LeBron detests languishing on bad teams and will pull every lever to pick his teammates, whether that be moving teams or cornering ownership to overspend.
Is anyone under the impression James wants to play on shitty teams and doesn't meddle with the personnel?
Look at this thread. People seriously believe he only chose LA for family and/or post career.
He chose LA because it’s the place where he can have it all - and that’s include recruiting players to win with. Whether it be this year or next.
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
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In comment 14003854 dep026 said:
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
Offseason isn’t over yet...
Free agency has killed this sport.
How will they have trouble competing with a trash offer of Saric and Covington? Even throwing in Markelle Fultz couldn't spice that up, even if they were willing to trade him.
Pope is a normal JR Smith. Hits 3s and defends. One year deal so are the other 2.
If you are going to start a mega team, you need a bunch of cheap 1 year deals. I can see them gutting the team soon.
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In comment 14003872 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14003854 dep026 said:
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Can be free agents next year.
Lebron is the biggest fraud in sports. Always has been, always will be.
Fraud? Going to a shitty team makes you a fraud?
To a shitty team in the Western Conference, no less.
People have been diminishing his accomplishments and "competitive spirit" by asserting he just coasts along against historically weak competition. They can't say that anymore, and yet, they will.
Offseason isn’t over yet...
Before you put all your eggs in the LeBron-Masterminded-a-Superteam basket -- just so you can later diminish him when he loses against a better team in the playoffs -- keep in mind that players have enjoyed going to the Lakers for decades, and joining LeBron for a decade. A player or two joining them should be neither a surprise or a smoking gun.
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
LeBron in 2010...LeBron again in 2014
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How many signed as free agents tho in the last 35 years who were in their primes and were top players in the league.
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
LeBron in 2010...LeBron again in 2014
I was referring to the lakers.
The players who go there are either pst prime or traded.
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In comment 14004082 dep026 said:
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How many signed as free agents tho in the last 35 years who were in their primes and were top players in the league.
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
LeBron in 2010...LeBron again in 2014
I was referring to the lakers.
The players who go there are either pst prime or traded.
Fair
I can think of only one. Shaq.
I expect that number to grow... fast.
I didn't say the Lakers have been historically active in signing big free agents, especially since they usually just trade for players. I said players enjoy going there. No one who gets traded to the Lakers pouts about it.
If another really good player signs or gets traded to them, try not to see it as proof that James just wants to live a life absent of challenges.
Free agency has killed this sport.
The East has been terrible for most of my lifetime. It's not free agency. It's poor management. There's free agency in the western conferent too, and that hasn't ruined anything.
The Lakers have already intervened with LaVar and you can bet they will even more if he bothers LeBron in anyway.
His future and his grandsons grandson future is probably more secure than your average ham and egger. He went to LA to win. He's bringing other players in with him. Always has. Always will.
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
This.
People are still mad about John Elway.
💰 $3,208,333 A Month.
💰 $740,384 A Week.
💰 $105,479 A Day.
💰 $4,394 An Hour.
💰 $73.25 A Minute.
💰 $1.22 A Second.
Who are you referring to? Paul George?
The Lakers better not screw around and wait for next offseason. Lebron is turning 34. Go all in for Leonard. I'd also be going after Walker. This starting 5 can win a title.
Kemba
KCP
Lebron
Leonard
Mcgee
And vets/ ring chasers will always sign up to play in LA.
People pine for the days when players were slaves to their teams and had to play their whole careers for one team but those days are thankfully numbered both in sports and the working world
Well said. Some just don't like the guy personally and will find any way they can to rip him. These are the same that whined that he was hiding out in the East, never facing the best competition. Now he's going to the much tougher conference with an unproven roster, so time to find another angle. Hence, he's a fraud! Give me a break.
By all accounts he's told the Lakers to not give up assets now for Kawhi. It's why he signed a four year deal when he never did that for Cleveland. To show that he's committed and they can build something more lasting than what they had with the Cavs.
If that's the case, he's essentially throwing a year away late in his career. They're not winning the title this season. If he was just chasing a ring there were 4-5 teams that would have been better destinations. I'm sure he would have liked Paul George to be there waiting for him but that didn't work out. He went anyway because this has seemingly always been his plan, regardless. He's earned that right to choose his own future. All of these great players have. The fact that bothers so many people is very strange
Sure we can. And it highlights the farce that the NBA is for free agency.
The NBA has become a place where friends band together on a handful of teams and tilt the competitive balance. You watch the Lakers over the next 4 years, LeBron will get a few people to come over and make a last run at a title. He'll likely fail, but the Lakers will be competitive again, he'll keep his star shining and then morph into a post career in entertainment.
LeBron has waved the white flag. The next few years will be for show - get the Lakers into the playoffs and band a few friends together to get them to where they might face the Warriors deeper in the playoffs - then he'll ride off into the sunset.
People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
The fact people are missing is lebron controls teams and fan bases and when he can’t win, he leaves - plain and simple. It’s fucking shitty to a fan base if you ask me.
IF so, why is this a bad thing? If he just languishes on a terrible roster that he has to drag through the playoffs, you'd approve then? He wouldn't be a fraud?
Yep Cleveland fans are going to be fine with winning 15 games next year.
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Lebron doesn’t wave the white flag. He and magic have a plan. This is the first step.
IF so, why is this a bad thing? If he just languishes on a terrible roster that he has to drag through the playoffs, you'd approve then? He wouldn't be a fraud?
Because the tilt of the NBA is at an all time low as far as competiveness. The east sucks now where you have two teams competing to get pummeled in the finals. Players controlling where they go and who they play with is not good for the sport. And no player in the history has controlled a sport than Lebron.
Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
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nobody here is angry with Lebron. Sad, sure. But they understand and are grateful for what he gave them. This isn't like 210
Yep Cleveland fans are going to be fine with winning 15 games next year.
Is that what I said?? Actually they'd probably rather bottom out now and win 15 games than languish with 30 wins and the 10th pick in the draft.
I'm guessing you didn't mind the lack of parity in the league when your team was winning 6 straight titles in full seasons that MJ played. This is what the NBA is about, always has been a stars league
That's a lot to give up if Kawhi leaves in a year. I still think the Lakers can offer the most, given they can be pretty sure Kawhi will sign there.
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Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
Ingram put up a ton of empty stats. I dont see him ever being anything more than solid.
His team stunk, how was he ever going to put up anything other than empty stats? I'm not saying he'll be a superstar, but that is his ceiling. If SA trades Kawhi to LA, Ingram HAS to be part of the package. I'd be interested to see how he does with Pops and a world-class shooting coach.
The Lakers have better young players in-place, and will attract better free agents.
Put it this way, this Lakers team starting this instant wouldn't get swept by Warriors. That's a great place to start for James.
James has one last shot at getting a ring, and the chances are exponentially higher in LA. Cleveland is going to win 20 games next year and Lue will get fired.
And when it's all over James will be remembered as a great Laker, live in the Hills, be a star.
He's a modern day Wilt.
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In comment 14004164 Kyle in NY said:
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nobody here is angry with Lebron. Sad, sure. But they understand and are grateful for what he gave them. This isn't like 210
Yep Cleveland fans are going to be fine with winning 15 games next year.
Is that what I said?? Actually they'd probably rather bottom out now and win 15 games than languish with 30 wins and the 10th pick in the draft.
I'm guessing you didn't mind the lack of parity in the league when your team was winning 6 straight titles in full seasons that MJ played. This is what the NBA is about, always has been a stars league
They beat five different teams in the finals though.
And dynasties are fine. But most dynasties were done by great drafting and smart moves. Who did Jordan team up with?? They drafted basically everyone. The biggest free agent signing was Ron Harper.
Since moving to ESPN/ABC, the regular season ratings are some of the lowest they've ever been, and were dwarfed by the ratings when the games were on NBC.
But the postseason has had a lot of success with increasing viewership.
Basically, much like an NBA game, the first 3/4ths is nearly uncompelling to watch and the last 1/4th is what drives the excitement.
Nowadays, people basically know the outcome and tune in to see the climax.
Might as well be a porno where people fast-forward through the bad acting and clothed scenes for the moneyshot.
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Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
The quality of play is fantastic. There are unreal players in the league. However, how many tines was it pointed out that the playoffs sucked balls this year? Not only were many series not close but neither were the games.
The game being popular to fans isn’t a concern to me. Competitiveness and quality of play is. Individual play is more important than team play.
Dating the most popular girl in school may be fun at first but how many times does she turn into a pain in the ass?
However, his competitive spirit should always be called into question based on his track record. He's not the only one, as they've all followed his lead, but this modern age of colluding with other stars to form a power team is weak. His tenure in Miami a disappointment because he, Wade and Bosh, not only talked about, but should've won more than 2. That finals loss to the Mavs was inexcusable. All the whining about poor LeBron playing on teams just not cut out to win titles? Oh well. He has lived in the East which has been nothing more than a cake walk to the Finals out side of a few years of some good Celtics teams. Oh, and that he had to face the Golden State juggernaut? He brought (the Durant version) of that team on himself by making it a thing for the best players in the world to join up with other already established groups when the going got tough.
And before anyone says, it was also pathetic when Malone and Gary Payton and whoever else tried it with the Lakers. If that group had won a ring it would have been garbage.
If LeBron stayed in Cleveland that whole time and had his 1 ring there to show for it, I would think more highly of his career than I do with his 2 additional manufactured rings down in Miami.
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In comment 14004176 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Some might like it, but personally it sucks. My complaint about lebron isn’t his game or even trying to win. It’s him controlling teams and the league. It’s not good.
I get that because of the small roster size in the NBA and the impact a star has on the team that it is easier to control teams, but this isn't good for the league.
The perception that a group of friends or top players get to control the competitiveness of the league is basically the trend most leagues have tried to get away from for years. In theory, people love a dynasty until they are in the middle of watching them, then those teams become a target of derision. It is an odd dynamic
The league is as popular as it's ever been. The claim that this isn't good for the league just is not backed up by data.
Dynasties and star filled teams are good for the NBA. The NBA was far more popular in the MJ era or during this super team era than it was in, let's say, 2004.
The quality of play is fantastic. There are unreal players in the league. However, how many tines was it pointed out that the playoffs sucked balls this year? Not only were many series not close but neither were the games.
The game being popular to fans isn’t a concern to me. Competitiveness and quality of play is. Individual play is more important than team play.
Dating the most popular girl in school may be fun at first but how many times does she turn into a pain in the ass?
I agree the talent in the league is at an all time high. a lot of the lack of quality in the playoffs can be attributed to the Warriors just being far too good. That's what happens when the second best team in the league joins a 73 win team.
We did get two seven game conference finals this season at least.
But I do think there's some revisionist history about how good the games in the past were. Those early and mid 2000s games were absolute rock fights. Check out some of the scores from those playoff games. The Pistons clinched a trip to the Finals with a 73-65 win over Indiana. There was more parity, but the game was in a worse place
Might as well be a porno where people fast-forward through the bad acting and clothed scenes for the moneyshot.
Pretty good line, credit where it's due lol
And dynasties are fine. But most dynasties were done by great drafting and smart moves. Who did Jordan team up with?? They drafted basically everyone. The biggest free agent signing was Ron Harper.
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But don't you have to give credit to the Bulls and fault the Cavs? The Bulls delivered Jordan Pippen- an all time great player and a player who fit perfectly next to him. Lebron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland- who was his Pippen? Kyrie who Cleveland got by pure luck and then proceeded to trade for a bag of balls.
Not to mention the shrewd trades for Rodman and Grant along with delivering him an all time head coach. Who was even Lebron's second best player pre-Miami? Mo Williams?
I think a better run organization would have been able to keep Lebron. But they did a really bad job of building around him and Gilbert is a gigantic asshole.
How were grant and pippen shrewd moves? They drafted them. And those were shrewd and Irving was luck? In fact, lebron chose to play with Irving. Not vice versa.
Lebron controlled many of the personnel decisions in Cleveland. He publicly acknowledged who he wanted for and the team went on and got those player or re-signed them. So you have to put a ton of fault in him too. And each time he saw a scenario where his team couldn’t compete....
He left. Every time. What other mega star in the history of the game has done what he has done?
The answer is simple. No one. He controlled everything within his team from playing, who to play with, coaching, and personnel decision.
The sob story that lebron hasn’t had enough to play with needs to end. He hasn’t played for too many coaches and GMs to absolve him.
However, his competitive spirit should always be called into question based on his track record. He's not the only one, as they've all followed his lead, but this modern age of colluding with other stars to form a power team is weak. His tenure in Miami a disappointment because he, Wade and Bosh, not only talked about, but should've won more than 2. That finals loss to the Mavs was inexcusable. All the whining about poor LeBron playing on teams just not cut out to win titles? Oh well. He has lived in the East which has been nothing more than a cake walk to the Finals out side of a few years of some good Celtics teams. Oh, and that he had to face the Golden State juggernaut? He brought (the Durant version) of that team on himself by making it a thing for the best players in the world to join up with other already established groups when the going got tough.
And before anyone says, it was also pathetic when Malone and Gary Payton and whoever else tried it with the Lakers. If that group had won a ring it would have been garbage.
If LeBron stayed in Cleveland that whole time and had his 1 ring there to show for it, I would think more highly of his career than I do with his 2 additional manufactured rings down in Miami.
+1
It’s also hard to play the “languishing on bad teams” card when he hand picks the players for said teams. Look at the mid-season trades Lebron engineered on Cleveland last year.
And, again, the vast majority of us go into each season knowing that our teams have absolutely no chance to even attempt to compete. None, zero, zilch, nada. What the hell reason does a Knicks fan, or a Nuggets fan, or a Grizzlies fan, or a Pacers fan, etc., have to bother paying attention to the league?
FWIW, I think it was Jalen Rose that said he thinks Durant eventually ends up in New York if/when he leaves Golden State.
FWIW, I think it was Jalen Rose that said he thinks Durant eventually ends up in New York if/when he leaves Golden State.
I'm pretty sure the media, agents, reporters all use New York as the default team to start up some rumor that Player X wants to play there.
How many more years can we do this? The Knicks aren't that appealing of a team to go to anymore. Have they ever been?
Yeah, for guys past their prime looking for one last pay day.
Why? That roster simply isn’t good with no surefire way to improve. And do you really trust Koby Altman and Dan Gilbert?
I truly don’t understand this criticism. I think of all us in similar situations in our work life would choose the Lakers and not think twice. Better city, better chance to succeed, better management, better opportunity to make money, makes his family happy. You wouldn’t sign up for that?
Why stay in Cleveland? To be “loyal” ? What’s funny is someone started a post a few weeks ago asking if he should jump to a competitor company. Pretty much everyone replied that he should do what’s best for himself and family and that loyalty doesn’t mean squat unless the company compensates you fairly for it. How it’s different?
And he was able to do so in a time that had much more restricted player mobility.
And then LeBron comes along with more hype and early attention than perhaps any athlete in sports history, is put in a terrible situation with terrible ownership and management, and is told that rings are all that matter.
And he has to compete in the most wide open era of player mobility, with the highest concentration of international basketball talent in the history of the sport. And no matter what decisions he makes, simple-minded and biased fans harangue him.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
I'm not taking a shot at you either Dep, just something I seemed to notice.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
Magic Johnson played a pretty big role...
And Rob Pelinka's building a pretty impressive resume with the Lakers. The clarkson and russell trades are looking very good. Kuzma and Hart are 2 very good late 1st round picks. And signing Lebron in your second offseason isn't bad...
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
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It's sports.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
I agree about the "Decision" but since then he's done everything right in my opinion. Went back to his hometown and delivered the trophy he promised. And this time around no hoopla at all, made an under the radar decision to go to LA for family reasons. Didn't chase a super team to try and get another ring or two before retiring. He's matured professionally to go along with being a role model off the court. While I'm still not a huge fan I've grown to respect him tremendously.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
Just look at his 2003 draft classmates. Melo looked completely washed up last year and sounds like may be waived. DWade is a role player coming off the bench. Bosh is out of the league ( due to a heart condition) but still. And Darko is probably smoking a pack a day back in Serbia.
Meanwhile Lebron just played all 82 games, dragged a team to the finals that had no business being there and is playing some of the basketball of his life. Pretty damn remarkable.
Why am I as a Knicks fan supposed to be cheery about this?
he did not help the kyrie situation at all leverage wise
each mid season he stops giving full effort and the team sucks... he then complains for them to go get more guys... they trade assets to try and help...
so while he gave cleveland a title and more then one could imagine as a cav fan-- he exploited his position and being that he sucks as lebron the GM- leaves them in shambles
I don’t “hate” LeBron but I do enjoy making fun of all the ridiculous stuff he’s been a part of (the decision, his shitty selfie videos, his crab walking, etc). Just because he’s the best player in the world doesn’t mean I have to love him. I feel he same about Brady, who’s a big douchey weirdo. I respect his career, but fuck him too.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
His character has been questioned multiple times on this thread and in every LeBron conversation. I think his character off the court is a better indicator that the comments about his basketball-related character being absurdly inaccurate.
People don't have to like LeBron as a basketball player. But it has been obvious for some time that many people never want to see him be considered better than Jordan and because of that, they find ways to criticize him for anything he does.
The hurdle he has to clear to be on Jordan's level in their nostalgic eyes is constantly changing, if not completely illusory. Jordan is the GOAT depsite not having as many rings as Russell, but for LeBron to be in the conversation with Jordan, he has to get as many rings as Jordan.
So, when LeBron tries to put himself in positions where his supporting cast and infrastructure is as relatively dominant compared with the rest of the league as Jordan's supporting cast was to the rest of the league in his time, he's considered a fraudulent ring-chaser.
And now, when LeBron doesn't go to the team that gives him the best chance to win, he's a fraud for thinking about other factors.
Greg: As a Knicks fan, I never said you should be cheery about it or that you should care one way or the other. Plus, it would be a fool's errand to ask you to be cheerful about anything, ha.
He creates his troubles and has no one to blame but himself.
So this is his 4th team, handful of GMs about 10 different coaches and now a whole new bunch of excuses.
Poor Lebron. As hitdog stated. He will coast for half the year, demand trades, and get Walton eventually fired.
Rinse and repeat. People fall for this every time.
You're right that people have weird rationales for their sports opinions, but at least you're up front about it. My issue is when people use they weird rationales as if they are grounded in objectivity.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
I think the overall Bulls rosters are overrated in hindsight due to how great Jordan was.
How about when the Bulls traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright which infuriated Jordan?
The era was also largely dominated by big men. Dream, Ewing, young Shaq, Zo, Robinson, Smits.
The big men on those Bulls teams? Cartwright, Wennington, Longley, the guy who went missing. Not exactly a who's who of talent.
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you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
But Cleveland could have always pushed back against him and simply made better moves. Firing their experienced GM a few days before the draft is just nuts. And letting a novice GM trade Irving was just an all around poor decision.
If they surrounded Lebron with Paul George and kept Kyrie or at least gotten good players in return, it would at least makes this decision to leave tougher. They made it easy on him.
And yes I'm sure lebron could have done more to smooth things over with Kyrie or not pushed as hard for certain moves. But good organizations can make those situations work. Cleveland didn't.
LeBron has absolutely had as much control as a player as anyone in history. And he has made some bad GM-type decisions, for sure. And he deserves criticism for them.
But there's this idea that because he has so much influence that it means he should still have won as many titles as Jordan if he were as good as Jordan, and that doesn't track with how basketball works.
It doesn't matter how much control LeBron has-- he could have been the actual GM-- he wasn't building a team that could compete with the Warriors or the 2014 Spurs, for example. Even the most brilliant GMs in history can only do so much in certain situations. A lot of it comes down to timing.
The two situations couldn’t be any more different.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
IMO, people who are defending Lebron is as funny as Charles Smith trying to make a layup.
Ron Harper was a key cog but never near an all star player.
People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
Exactly! The logical choice is to not bitch about either.
I know plenty of fans who hated Jordan for trying to dictate things, for leaving the game, and for his comebacks with the Bulls and Wizards.
Heck, we have Giants fans who dislike Eli to this day for what he did in the draft.
I don't get why Jordan and the Bulls are always brought into these discussions. LeBron's actions stand on their own. The cherry picking of teammates. The ridiculous "Decision". The continual complaints about being a victim.
You want to feel bad about a situation - look at the fans who dislike players, not for their actions, but because of the media hype (part of the "Decision" blowback can be lumped here)
Think about fans who disliked Tebow, not for things he did, but because ESPN was blowing him 22 hours a day. Think about fans who disliked Favre as helicopters hovered above his meetings. Fans basically don't like artificial hype or manipulation.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
Maybe Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman were at times recognized as more than role players but that's about it.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
The bulls had the first pick after Jordan left the 2nd time as well.
And Steve Kerr was worse at his role than Kyle Korver was. So if he we are going to prop up Kerr, we have to for the likes or Korver and a ray Allen who was MUCH better than Steve kerr.
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People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
Exactly! The logical choice is to not bitch about either.
Then what are we going to talk about?
Brett’s fetish for wearing thongs?
Route trying to be a boss?
Lesson on how to be a true fan by Vin R?
Haha
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
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Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
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In comment 14004439 dep026 said:
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Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.
You’re kind of bringing out my point. The Cavs have two choices. Either ignore lebron and his desires and risking pissing him off and leaving. Lebron has always had too much control and puts teams in a bind. Sure Cleveland could have stronger management but how many teams do??? Miami and SA are on the short list. Not many teams do.
It’s almost they had to appease him just to hope to keep him. I think it’s wrong.
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In comment 14004514 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 14004439 dep026 said:
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Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.
Um, yes. Lebron wanted Korver and Jamison. The rest of them besides Hickson and Jackson never even played with lebron. Because they were traded on draft day.
Cleveland couldn’t build a team around lebron during a draft which is what I’ve been trying to say.
Shannon Brown played his rookie year and then was traded in the Ben Wallace deal. It’s lebrons fault the Cavs traded for Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Joe Smith? And I’m sure Lebron demanded to play with Jamison...
Lebron brings pressure on your franchise to build a winner but he didn’t force them to make these bad trades and poor draft picks.
The Cavs did a bad job surrounding him talent- especially his first tenure. And this past year was disastrous in terms of personnel moves for Cleveland.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
i have a bit of an axe there... but nothing i said is about feelings, mainly facts--- so maybe a small caveat on my commentary--- but none of it is false.
He's been terrible at it. LeBron the player has bailed out LeBron the GM a few times, and credit to how otherworldly he's played.
There's no comparison to the Jordan Bulls situation. The Bulls had Jerry Krause not listening to Jackson or Jordan. Krause made a number of decisions LeBron would have gotten his GM fired over.
In the end, the Cavs pay the most. They have Kevin Love, George Hill, Tristan Thompson, and JR Smith making north of 14M a year.
And the only asset from the Irving deal is Collin Sexton, a good but not super star potential player.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
How is it lebrons fault they had “no leverage”? Which isn’t even true. Kyrie has 2 years left on his deal. Lebrons the one said to bring him to training camp. The Cavs had plenty of leverage, they just made a bad trade. And then followed that up with more mad trades at the deadline.
But at least they have Colin Sexton now...
And now it’s his fault his teammates played like shit? Are you serious? What more could he have done during that playoff run.
Actor, Producer,Director, and plays bb.
Shannon Brown played his rookie year and then was traded in the Ben Wallace deal. It’s lebrons fault the Cavs traded for Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak and Joe Smith? And I’m sure Lebron demanded to play with Jamison...
Lebron brings pressure on your franchise to build a winner but he didn’t force them to make these bad trades and poor draft picks.
The Cavs did a bad job surrounding him talent- especially his first tenure. And this past year was disastrous in terms of personnel moves for Cleveland.
The moves you are bringing up is public knowledge that lebron wanted. So yes lebron played a HUGE role in these trades and FA signings. Your inability to understand this is not my problem anymore.
He's been terrible at it. LeBron the player has bailed out LeBron the GM a few times, and credit to how otherworldly he's played.
There's no comparison to the Jordan Bulls situation. The Bulls had Jerry Krause not listening to Jackson or Jordan. Krause made a number of decisions LeBron would have gotten his GM fired over.
In the end, the Cavs pay the most. They have Kevin Love, George Hill, Tristan Thompson, and JR Smith making north of 14M a year.
And the only asset from the Irving deal is Collin Sexton, a good but not super star potential player.
This is a fantastic post. Probably said it a lot better than me.
mid season, as per usual lebron doesnt try as hard for a 2 week window, the team does poorly... lebron sulks... complains (did the same the prior year to get them to trade for korver)... and the team then makes a trade.
upon finding out that IT was traded... he tries again... scores 50 and the game winner in minny....
what a great guy concerned about the franchise...
and he ATE UP the narrative of him carrying the team.... to which is young teammates played like shit because of it.
Thanks hit. I believe this isn’t the first time this happened either.
Winning that ring was probably worth it, and there's nothing shameful about a string of four finals appearances. He made a lot of money in the process. He's also on the hook for a lot. And he forfeited a half-decade of young talent.
With a top 10 protected pick next year, the Cavs should really move Love. The irony is the team with best assets to deal with might be the Celtics again.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
The Cavs have a 35-year-old GM who's only real experience is within the org. They have an owner who virtually shit his pants in the media the last time James walked away. And they had James who literally walked away once.
No one in that organization was really in a position to run an organization. Team James took major advantage of that power vacuum.
But James's position as a player isn't unique (even if not equalled).
Kevin Durant isn't being super shy on holding pretty big cards on how the Warriors operate while he's there. There's a reason he won't sign long term and there's a reason Myers has to be OK with it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
Lebron had Cleveland by the balls and he knew t.
Or signing Cousins
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
Lebron had Cleveland by the balls and he knew t.
You keep pitching this like it's some Machiavellian effort on his part. I see it as more likely being the results of the intrinsic pressures that come when your team has one of the top 3 (arguably, best 2) players in history (perhaps coupled with possibly one of the bottom 200 management/ownership teams in history?).
Is there any evidence that LeBron ever offered ultimatums like "I have no idea what your existing free agent plans are and I don't care -- you sign Antawn Jamison NOW or I'm out!" Or is it possible that, as particular free agents became available, he had opinions (incorrect as they may be) about which would be good signings and then made these opinions known, like other players sometimes do?
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LeBron voicing particular ideas about getting particular players. I can even imagine him voicing them really really loudly. And I can imagine the amount of pressure that puts on a team that is upper-tier and championship-caliber simply because LeBron is on it.
But if you can't argue an alternative to your star player, you are probably not suited to assemble the rest of your team.
Shit, nearly every Warrior wanted Mark Jackson to stay coach and many were mad he was fired. Good thing they weren't catered to.
And if management did take control and they didn’t win, goodbye Lebron maybe even sooner.
Lebron had Cleveland by the balls and he knew t.
Or make better moves while allowing some input from Lebron. They made this decision easy for him with the current roster.
It’s very, very shitty.
It’s very, very shitty.
I understand your point but they still could have done a better job of team building around him.
From everything that I read, Lebron demanded the Kevin Love trade, Mike Miller signing, including JR in the Shumpert trade and the minor signings like James Jones and Perkins.
He didn't force them to miss on every draft from 2004-2009, or trade Kyrie Irving for a bag of balls. They also had a trade done with the Pacers for Paul George but refused to include a future unprotected pick.
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That he wants a player signed, he is basically holding his team hostage. You may not agree with my opinion, but Cleveland was forced to do what Lebron wanted.
It’s very, very shitty.
I understand your point but they still could have done a better job of team building around him.
From everything that I read, Lebron demanded the Kevin Love trade, Mike Miller signing, including JR in the Shumpert trade and the minor signings like James Jones and Perkins.
He didn't force them to miss on every draft from 2004-2009, or trade Kyrie Irving for a bag of balls. They also had a trade done with the Pacers for Paul George but refused to include a future unprotected pick.
He also made it publicly known he wanted jr Smith and Tristan Thompson re-signed.
This is a perfect example of something a strong GM like Krause would have put an end to immediately.
Someone in the organization needed to be strong enough to sit them both down and resolve it. Instead you lose 2 all stars in exchange for getting swept in the finals, a luxury tax roster that would be lucky to win 30 games, and an 8th overall pick.
Really try that on for size. The Cavs couldn't have cooked up a bigger disaster without a Dolan running the show.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
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it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
It isn't bullshit at all. Open your eyes, the players run this league. Once a relationship is fractured, its over. Now I'm not claiming the Cleveland FO didn't also compound the shit scenario, but their hand was forced, I don't know how you can ever disagree with that.
And that's what ultimately makes the NBA a shitty league.
Maybe they confused Omri for Amare.
Different situation, but the result is the same. Even worse for SA is that he won't sign an extension if traded, most likely. Great league.
The pacers wanted unprotected- the Cavs asked lebron to pick it up so they weren’t left losing George and lebron and not having a pick.
But he decided not to commit to that- so instead the trade didn’t happen and now lebron is cool to sign a 3+ year deal with the lakers..... actually allowing a team to breathe and build instead of holding hostage. Essentially he was always going to la.
Interestingly Chris Sheridan called it via sources a year ago and was right.
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In comment 14004956 UConn4523 said:
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it’s pretty clear that his relationship with LeBron was fractured, for whatever reason. Once hat happened his trade value sunk like a rock.
that's bullshit. He was still under contract for two additional years. They had all the leverage. The morons running the Cavs simply botched it. What was hysterical was how proud of themselves they were. Ooh...Crowder! Organizational malpractice to trade an all-nba caliber guard for role player, an injured player, and a pick that everyone knew was projected to be outside the top 5.
It isn't bullshit at all. Open your eyes, the players run this league. Once a relationship is fractured, its over. Now I'm not claiming the Cleveland FO didn't also compound the shit scenario, but their hand was forced, I don't know how you can ever disagree with that.
And that's what ultimately makes the NBA a shitty league.
their hand was forced to make a lousy deal? Nonsense. And of course they didn't have to trade Irving when they did. there are always alternatives. Especially when you control the guy for two years. LMA wanted out of San Antonio and the Spurs smartly waited him out and repaired the relationship.
Could it have been handled better? In a perfect world yes, in millennial social media world... not easy. They wanted a josh Jackson or Tatum type. They lost leverage and instead tried to stay competitive and plan for the future— crowder the 3 and d guy they needed who has been a good player with everyone but lebron/lue—- it was the mess of the deal- and Brooklyn was about 4 slots higher than Cleveland expected. They thought they were getting top 4 possibly.
Harry hindsight always makes the best deals though
What's happened is a phenomenon, and if you are owner who lucks out, it's not a problem for you. There's very little an owner can do to make a team desirable. What's Clay Bennet doing that's so otherworldly?
The owners have one very viable option to limit the players, and that's punishing themselves. Start with giving up picks for signing free agents like MLB.
Regardless of who’s right this entire debate is about how Irving forced their hand. He refused to play for them. Leonard refused to play for SA. Both teams lost leverage and immediately were in a lesser position to negotiate with another team. That’s the point.
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The deal was first-guessed as a lousy trade by many...excluding of course Koby's friends in the media who were too busy high-fiving each other about all the "assets" they got in return to realize the haul was full of holes. Face it, you had a guy way in over his head influenced by an idiot owner making a trade with the master.
Regardless of who’s right this entire debate is about how Irving forced their hand. He refused to play for them. Leonard refused to play for SA. Both teams lost leverage and immediately were in a lesser position to negotiate with another team. That’s the point.
Kawhi situation is totally different and virtually unprecedented. You have no idea if Kyrie would have pulled the same stunt, and you're only grouping them to try and prove your shitty point. The Cavs had plenty of leverage. They were simply too incompetent to make use of it.
And I’m not sure if you’ve payed any attention to Irving but he’s a strange, weird, sensitive person. We are going to see more of this happen, not less. The NBAs rules and structure let it happen. I’d argue his situation opened the door for more players doing it, like we are seeing now with Leonard.
But hey, you can ignore it if you want.
A lot of people were all over Isiah's jock after his 2016-2017 season (not me!! handpat on my back!) Crowder was the ideal 3 and D that Lebron coveted, and they got a top 10 pick. Might not be the best package - but they werent going to get much better the longer Kyrie sat.
What made the trade even funnier was that they traded Thomas for a bag o' shitand gutted their roster for shit player because Bron Bron wanted changes midseason. Crowder and Rose played very well in the playoffs. Clarkson and Hood were DNP's. Thomas could have provided a scoring spark Cleveland desparately needed.
They werent beating the Warriors, but the players they got rid of were massive upgrades than the scrubs Lebron wanted....haha
Different situation, but the result is the same. Even worse for SA is that he won't sign an extension if traded, most likely. Great league.
After all the Spurs did for Leonard, and they were hugely instrumental (if not entirely) in developing his game, Leonard is showing what an ungrateful, disloyal jerk off he is. The Spurs are one of the great organization in sports. One of the most player friendly organizations in sports. If you can't get along with the Spurs, it's you, not the Spurs...
I would've preferred they had a sign and trade teed up for JR, knowing for months he wanted to be gone. To simply grant his wish and cut him loose for nothing in return is irritating, that's where the inexperience of Magic/Pelinka surfaces.