Why? That roster simply isn’t good with no surefire way to improve. And do you really trust Koby Altman and Dan Gilbert?
I truly don’t understand this criticism. I think of all us in similar situations in our work life would choose the Lakers and not think twice. Better city, better chance to succeed, better management, better opportunity to make money, makes his family happy. You wouldn’t sign up for that?
Why stay in Cleveland? To be “loyal” ? What’s funny is someone started a post a few weeks ago asking if he should jump to a competitor company. Pretty much everyone replied that he should do what’s best for himself and family and that loyalty doesn’t mean squat unless the company compensates you fairly for it. How it’s different?
Michael Jordan is no doubt one of the best basketball players that ever lived. He was also gifted a remarkable situation where he had Pippen, Grant, Paxson, and Phil Jackson. Then he left to play baseball and his team won over 50 games without him . And then he came back to Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Kerr, and Jackson.
And he was able to do so in a time that had much more restricted player mobility.
And then LeBron comes along with more hype and early attention than perhaps any athlete in sports history, is put in a terrible situation with terrible ownership and management, and is told that rings are all that matter.
And he has to compete in the most wide open era of player mobility, with the highest concentration of international basketball talent in the history of the sport. And no matter what decisions he makes, simple-minded and biased fans harangue him.
Athletes today have more scrutiny and attention on them with social media, 24/7 sports shows, and smartphones that make every person in public a potential paparazzo.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Yeah, the Knicks have been a disaster. I must have missed, however, what part Lakers' current management played in their storied history.
Magic Johnson played a pretty big role...
And Rob Pelinka's building a pretty impressive resume with the Lakers. The clarkson and russell trades are looking very good. Kuzma and Hart are 2 very good late 1st round picks. And signing Lebron in your second offseason isn't bad...
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
I agree about the "Decision" but since then he's done everything right in my opinion. Went back to his hometown and delivered the trophy he promised. And this time around no hoopla at all, made an under the radar decision to go to LA for family reasons. Didn't chase a super team to try and get another ring or two before retiring. He's matured professionally to go along with being a role model off the court. While I'm still not a huge fan I've grown to respect him tremendously.
RE: even more ridiculous are the attacks on his character Â
Athletes today have more scrutiny and attention on them with social media, 24/7 sports shows, and smartphones that make every person in public a potential paparazzo.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
Just look at his 2003 draft classmates. Melo looked completely washed up last year and sounds like may be waived. DWade is a role player coming off the bench. Bosh is out of the league ( due to a heart condition) but still. And Darko is probably smoking a pack a day back in Serbia.
Meanwhile Lebron just played all 82 games, dragged a team to the finals that had no business being there and is playing some of the basketball of his life. Pretty damn remarkable.
should be he essentially made a team give out a bunch of awful contracts and since they have been proven awful he is now leaving the team with said awful contracts.
he did not help the kyrie situation at all leverage wise
each mid season he stops giving full effort and the team sucks... he then complains for them to go get more guys... they trade assets to try and help...
so while he gave cleveland a title and more then one could imagine as a cav fan-- he exploited his position and being that he sucks as lebron the GM- leaves them in shambles
why anyone is puzzled by why people don’t like him. Plenty of people hated Jordan. Plenty hate Tom Brady. Great players are always hated.
I don’t “hate” LeBron but I do enjoy making fun of all the ridiculous stuff he’s been a part of (the decision, his shitty selfie videos, his crab walking, etc). Just because he’s the best player in the world doesn’t mean I have to love him. I feel he same about Brady, who’s a big douchey weirdo. I respect his career, but fuck him too.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
His character has been questioned multiple times on this thread and in every LeBron conversation. I think his character off the court is a better indicator that the comments about his basketball-related character being absurdly inaccurate.
People don't have to like LeBron as a basketball player. But it has been obvious for some time that many people never want to see him be considered better than Jordan and because of that, they find ways to criticize him for anything he does.
The hurdle he has to clear to be on Jordan's level in their nostalgic eyes is constantly changing, if not completely illusory. Jordan is the GOAT depsite not having as many rings as Russell, but for LeBron to be in the conversation with Jordan, he has to get as many rings as Jordan.
So, when LeBron tries to put himself in positions where his supporting cast and infrastructure is as relatively dominant compared with the rest of the league as Jordan's supporting cast was to the rest of the league in his time, he's considered a fraudulent ring-chaser.
And now, when LeBron doesn't go to the team that gives him the best chance to win, he's a fraud for thinking about other factors.
you say LeBron exploited his position in Cleveland. I ask, who got more out of LeBron being in Cleveland: LeBron, Dan Gilbert, or the fans?
Greg: As a Knicks fan, I never said you should be cheery about it or that you should care one way or the other. Plus, it would be a fool's errand to ask you to be cheerful about anything, ha.
If Jordan fans think he’s better, who cares? There’s weird rationales for everything. Fact is I was a kid when I followed Jordan who was a sports God to me and I’ve been an adult watching the LeBron NBA which I can’t stand. It’s impossible for me to compare the two eras not just from a rules and competition standpoint but moreso because as I’ve grown my tastes and toleration of sports has changed.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
if you want to think Jordan is better than LeBron, have at it. I won't say you're wrong.
You're right that people have weird rationales for their sports opinions, but at least you're up front about it. My issue is when people use they weird rationales as if they are grounded in objectivity.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
Jordan and Pippen basically with some years with Kukoc as another legitimate threat and Rodman who was great at what he did but pretty one-dimensional. Horace Grant was also a terrific player.
I think the overall Bulls rosters are overrated in hindsight due to how great Jordan was.
How about when the Bulls traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright which infuriated Jordan?
The era was also largely dominated by big men. Dream, Ewing, young Shaq, Zo, Robinson, Smits.
The big men on those Bulls teams? Cartwright, Wennington, Longley, the guy who went missing. Not exactly a who's who of talent.
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
But Cleveland could have always pushed back against him and simply made better moves. Firing their experienced GM a few days before the draft is just nuts. And letting a novice GM trade Irving was just an all around poor decision.
If they surrounded Lebron with Paul George and kept Kyrie or at least gotten good players in return, it would at least makes this decision to leave tougher. They made it easy on him.
And yes I'm sure lebron could have done more to smooth things over with Kyrie or not pushed as hard for certain moves. But good organizations can make those situations work. Cleveland didn't.
one dimensional? He was near the end of his career, but he was still the best rebounder in the league and a great defender on a team who didn't need his offense. Ron Harper was a strong perimeter defender and triangle offense point guard. Steve Kerr is still the most accurate 3-point shooter in NBA history. They also had Phil Jackson as a coach.
LeBron has absolutely had as much control as a player as anyone in history. And he has made some bad GM-type decisions, for sure. And he deserves criticism for them.
But there's this idea that because he has so much influence that it means he should still have won as many titles as Jordan if he were as good as Jordan, and that doesn't track with how basketball works.
It doesn't matter how much control LeBron has-- he could have been the actual GM-- he wasn't building a team that could compete with the Warriors or the 2014 Spurs, for example. Even the most brilliant GMs in history can only do so much in certain situations. A lot of it comes down to timing.
like it’s supposed to offset LeBrons Miami decision. Pippen was a draft day trade, not some all star they traded for during his prime. He’s credited Jordan as to how/why he became a better nba player, who’s start in the nba out of central Arkansas was very lackluster.
The two situations couldn’t be any more different.
of sports fans get upset when things are manipulated.
I know plenty of fans who hated Jordan for trying to dictate things, for leaving the game, and for his comebacks with the Bulls and Wizards.
Heck, we have Giants fans who dislike Eli to this day for what he did in the draft.
I don't get why Jordan and the Bulls are always brought into these discussions. LeBron's actions stand on their own. The cherry picking of teammates. The ridiculous "Decision". The continual complaints about being a victim.
You want to feel bad about a situation - look at the fans who dislike players, not for their actions, but because of the media hype (part of the "Decision" blowback can be lumped here)
Think about fans who disliked Tebow, not for things he did, but because ESPN was blowing him 22 hours a day. Think about fans who disliked Favre as helicopters hovered above his meetings. Fans basically don't like artificial hype or manipulation.
Kerr was an exceptional 3 point shooter who was a floor-spacing component and did so effectively for the Bulls and the Spurs, albeit it in an era that relied far less on the 3. No one is clamoring to build their team around him, but when you are a loaded team, he's just one more specialist/weapon in the arsenal.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
Kerr was an exceptional 3 point shooter who was a floor-spacing component and did so effectively for the Bulls and the Spurs, albeit it in an era that relied far less on the 3. No one is clamoring to build their team around him, but when you are a loaded team, he's just one more specialist/weapon in the arsenal.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
The bulls had the first pick after Jordan left the 2nd time as well.
And Steve Kerr was worse at his role than Kyle Korver was. So if he we are going to prop up Kerr, we have to for the likes or Korver and a ray Allen who was MUCH better than Steve kerr.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.
FWIW, I think it was Jalen Rose that said he thinks Durant eventually ends up in New York if/when he leaves Golden State.
I'm pretty sure the media, agents, reporters all use New York as the default team to start up some rumor that Player X wants to play there.
How many more years can we do this? The Knicks aren't that appealing of a team to go to anymore. Have they ever been?
Yeah, for guys past their prime looking for one last pay day.
Why? That roster simply isn’t good with no surefire way to improve. And do you really trust Koby Altman and Dan Gilbert?
I truly don’t understand this criticism. I think of all us in similar situations in our work life would choose the Lakers and not think twice. Better city, better chance to succeed, better management, better opportunity to make money, makes his family happy. You wouldn’t sign up for that?
Why stay in Cleveland? To be “loyal” ? What’s funny is someone started a post a few weeks ago asking if he should jump to a competitor company. Pretty much everyone replied that he should do what’s best for himself and family and that loyalty doesn’t mean squat unless the company compensates you fairly for it. How it’s different?
And he was able to do so in a time that had much more restricted player mobility.
And then LeBron comes along with more hype and early attention than perhaps any athlete in sports history, is put in a terrible situation with terrible ownership and management, and is told that rings are all that matter.
And he has to compete in the most wide open era of player mobility, with the highest concentration of international basketball talent in the history of the sport. And no matter what decisions he makes, simple-minded and biased fans harangue him.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
I'm not taking a shot at you either Dep, just something I seemed to notice.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
Magic Johnson played a pretty big role...
And Rob Pelinka's building a pretty impressive resume with the Lakers. The clarkson and russell trades are looking very good. Kuzma and Hart are 2 very good late 1st round picks. And signing Lebron in your second offseason isn't bad...
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
Quote:
It's sports.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
That’s my feeling as well. Personally, I used to be a huge LeBron fan but the original “Decision” was a huge turn off for me and haven’t liked him since. He’s played his part in souring my opinion of the NBA (and it certainly isn’t just him).
He really is an incredible player and role model. But from a purely sports entertainment standpoint, he’s become a very tiresome player to follow and root for.
I agree about the "Decision" but since then he's done everything right in my opinion. Went back to his hometown and delivered the trophy he promised. And this time around no hoopla at all, made an under the radar decision to go to LA for family reasons. Didn't chase a super team to try and get another ring or two before retiring. He's matured professionally to go along with being a role model off the court. While I'm still not a huge fan I've grown to respect him tremendously.
And here comes LeBron, raised by a single, teenage mother in poverty with massive attention since he is 15 or 16. He's married to his high school girlfriend, has never been arrested, has never been caught with drugs, has never been involved in an off-the-court altercation or DUI, has never had reports of infidelity or anything else unseemly. He's incredibly philanthropic with a focus on educating the disadvantaged youth.
And 18 years later, he's still as dedicated as ever to his work on and off the court.
The guy should be held up as one of the best role models that exist in sports and in the community. And, yet, people still assail his character. It's absurd.
Just look at his 2003 draft classmates. Melo looked completely washed up last year and sounds like may be waived. DWade is a role player coming off the bench. Bosh is out of the league ( due to a heart condition) but still. And Darko is probably smoking a pack a day back in Serbia.
Meanwhile Lebron just played all 82 games, dragged a team to the finals that had no business being there and is playing some of the basketball of his life. Pretty damn remarkable.
Why am I as a Knicks fan supposed to be cheery about this?
he did not help the kyrie situation at all leverage wise
each mid season he stops giving full effort and the team sucks... he then complains for them to go get more guys... they trade assets to try and help...
so while he gave cleveland a title and more then one could imagine as a cav fan-- he exploited his position and being that he sucks as lebron the GM- leaves them in shambles
I don’t “hate” LeBron but I do enjoy making fun of all the ridiculous stuff he’s been a part of (the decision, his shitty selfie videos, his crab walking, etc). Just because he’s the best player in the world doesn’t mean I have to love him. I feel he same about Brady, who’s a big douchey weirdo. I respect his career, but fuck him too.
You're allowed to talk about an athlete within the context of sports and competition while separating how great of an individual someone may or may not be away from their profession.
Talk about dramatic.
His character has been questioned multiple times on this thread and in every LeBron conversation. I think his character off the court is a better indicator that the comments about his basketball-related character being absurdly inaccurate.
People don't have to like LeBron as a basketball player. But it has been obvious for some time that many people never want to see him be considered better than Jordan and because of that, they find ways to criticize him for anything he does.
The hurdle he has to clear to be on Jordan's level in their nostalgic eyes is constantly changing, if not completely illusory. Jordan is the GOAT depsite not having as many rings as Russell, but for LeBron to be in the conversation with Jordan, he has to get as many rings as Jordan.
So, when LeBron tries to put himself in positions where his supporting cast and infrastructure is as relatively dominant compared with the rest of the league as Jordan's supporting cast was to the rest of the league in his time, he's considered a fraudulent ring-chaser.
And now, when LeBron doesn't go to the team that gives him the best chance to win, he's a fraud for thinking about other factors.
Greg: As a Knicks fan, I never said you should be cheery about it or that you should care one way or the other. Plus, it would be a fool's errand to ask you to be cheerful about anything, ha.
He creates his troubles and has no one to blame but himself.
So this is his 4th team, handful of GMs about 10 different coaches and now a whole new bunch of excuses.
Poor Lebron. As hitdog stated. He will coast for half the year, demand trades, and get Walton eventually fired.
Rinse and repeat. People fall for this every time.
You're right that people have weird rationales for their sports opinions, but at least you're up front about it. My issue is when people use they weird rationales as if they are grounded in objectivity.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
I think the overall Bulls rosters are overrated in hindsight due to how great Jordan was.
How about when the Bulls traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright which infuriated Jordan?
The era was also largely dominated by big men. Dream, Ewing, young Shaq, Zo, Robinson, Smits.
The big men on those Bulls teams? Cartwright, Wennington, Longley, the guy who went missing. Not exactly a who's who of talent.
Quote:
you are as biased as it gets when it comes to this because you're a Bulls and Jordan fan. If it were my team, I would have a hard time separating it as well. You downplay how great of a system and supporting cast and and coaching situation Jordan had for those 8 years from 91-98. Those teams were not only loaded, but the pieces all fit together incredibly well.
I am not disagreeing but you know why they were well run?? Jordan a Snyder pippen stayed out of decisions. And not one chicagoian will say reinsdorf was a great owner. And pippen/Jordan hated Krause.
Lebrons meddling has caused more problems than helped. And what should be remembered it has cost front office and head coaches their jobs.
He has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for.
Lebrons talent as a player is undeniable. His meddling and control of the league is my problem. He runs when he screws up an organization.
But Cleveland could have always pushed back against him and simply made better moves. Firing their experienced GM a few days before the draft is just nuts. And letting a novice GM trade Irving was just an all around poor decision.
If they surrounded Lebron with Paul George and kept Kyrie or at least gotten good players in return, it would at least makes this decision to leave tougher. They made it easy on him.
And yes I'm sure lebron could have done more to smooth things over with Kyrie or not pushed as hard for certain moves. But good organizations can make those situations work. Cleveland didn't.
LeBron has absolutely had as much control as a player as anyone in history. And he has made some bad GM-type decisions, for sure. And he deserves criticism for them.
But there's this idea that because he has so much influence that it means he should still have won as many titles as Jordan if he were as good as Jordan, and that doesn't track with how basketball works.
It doesn't matter how much control LeBron has-- he could have been the actual GM-- he wasn't building a team that could compete with the Warriors or the 2014 Spurs, for example. Even the most brilliant GMs in history can only do so much in certain situations. A lot of it comes down to timing.
The two situations couldn’t be any more different.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
IMO, people who are defending Lebron is as funny as Charles Smith trying to make a layup.
Ron Harper was a key cog but never near an all star player.
People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
Exactly! The logical choice is to not bitch about either.
I know plenty of fans who hated Jordan for trying to dictate things, for leaving the game, and for his comebacks with the Bulls and Wizards.
Heck, we have Giants fans who dislike Eli to this day for what he did in the draft.
I don't get why Jordan and the Bulls are always brought into these discussions. LeBron's actions stand on their own. The cherry picking of teammates. The ridiculous "Decision". The continual complaints about being a victim.
You want to feel bad about a situation - look at the fans who dislike players, not for their actions, but because of the media hype (part of the "Decision" blowback can be lumped here)
Think about fans who disliked Tebow, not for things he did, but because ESPN was blowing him 22 hours a day. Think about fans who disliked Favre as helicopters hovered above his meetings. Fans basically don't like artificial hype or manipulation.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
Maybe Grant, Kukoc, and Rodman were at times recognized as more than role players but that's about it.
The Bulls won 55 games the year after Jordan left and went 34-31 in the following season before Jordan returned. To deny that they had a really strong thing going even without Jordan is crazy to me.
The bulls had the first pick after Jordan left the 2nd time as well.
And Steve Kerr was worse at his role than Kyle Korver was. So if he we are going to prop up Kerr, we have to for the likes or Korver and a ray Allen who was MUCH better than Steve kerr.
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People bitch about super teams but are ok with what lebron does? Ok, can’t have it both ways.
Exactly! The logical choice is to not bitch about either.
Then what are we going to talk about?
Brett’s fetish for wearing thongs?
Route trying to be a boss?
Lesson on how to be a true fan by Vin R?
Haha
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
Quote:
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Quote:
In comment 14004439 dep026 said:
Quote:
Was trading of first round picks for quick fixes. It backfired for him everytime.
Instead of going for reaches... who knows - they could have gotten a jimmy butler, draymond green, or any of these Late round or 2nd round steals.
It’s nearly impossible to build a team around Lebron because Lebron doesn’t want that or leaves before it’s possible.
Here are the Cavs 1st round picks from 2004-2010
2004- Luke Jackson 10th overall
2005- Traded in previous Wesley Parsons deal
2006- Shannon Brown 25th
2007- traded for Jiri Welsch
2008- JJ Hickson 19th
2009- Christian Eyenga 30th
2010- Traded for Antawn Jamison who was awful for them in the playoffs.
Danny Green was also a 2nd round pick who was waived.
From 2014-2017
2014- Wiggins ( traded for Love) and Joe Harris 33rd overall (waived)
2015- Tyus Jones 25th overall
2016- Traded to dump Tyler Zeller on Boston to make room for Lebron
2017- Traded to ATL for Korver.
Thats a pretty bad track record.
A lot of those players never played for Cleveland as they were traded on draft day and Cleveland gave up a lot of picks for guys like Korver and Jamison because lebron openly clamored for them. So you proved my point.
Got it. So its Lebrons fault the Cavs couldn't produce a decent player either drafted or from a trade in 11 seasons? Excluding the Wiggins for Love trade.