The o-line is the big unknown this year, as in the recent past. A little more optimism this year mainly because the backups (Greco, Wheeler, Jones) have shown to be acceptable in a fill-in role, and because the starters appear to be better quality and/or able to stay on the field.
Personally, I think Greco May emerge as the first off the bench at either guard position. I think he also has some game experience at center and tackle. Unless Father Time takes him out.
which should apply to Flowers move to the right side. It's more natural for a right handed person to shift their weight to the right to mirror pass rushers trying to beat them on that side - once they get used to moving that way.
In any case Flowers is certainly an upgrade over Bobby Hart in pass protection and especially as a run blocker. So we should see improvement at both tackles and both guards. I know I tend to be an optimist, but I see this line as average and maybe slightly better than average.
Problem with Flowers is that he has been a disappointment as a run blocker too. That wasn't supposed to be an issue with him. Fingers crossed that he has a new attitude with new chemistry in the locker room, but that is probably wishful thinking.
Problem with Flowers is that he has been a disappointment as a run blocker too. That wasn't supposed to be an issue with him. Fingers crossed that he has a new attitude with new chemistry in the locker room, but that is probably wishful thinking.
Eric, like most I'm obviously "hoping" Flowers finally finds himself and masters the RT technique enough to be at a minimum, "adequate" but hopefully at least "average" by NFL standards (meaning he is like in the "teens" in terms of ranking NFL starting RT's (LOL!). Adequate is very late teens to early early 20's. My logic...so take it with a grain of salt.
Problem with Flowers is that he has been a disappointment as a run blocker too. That wasn't supposed to be an issue with him. Fingers crossed that he has a new attitude with new chemistry in the locker room, but that is probably wishful thinking.
We can only hope he pulls his head out his ass and gets his ego out of the way. He is still a young guy but he has to realize that this season is going to gain or lose money for him.
How does this group compare to '08? We all agree that was the benchmark.
Obviously cohesion and chemistry can't be compared and shouldn't be expected, but what about in terms of shear size and power?
Solder and Diehl actually are similar players. Tall and athletic. Not road graders.
The rookie and Seubert appear to have a similar mentality. How do they compare physically?
O'hara was smaller but technically sound and benefited from Snee. Jones actually seems like a similar player. I don't know much about Halapio.
There is noone near Snee in this group. Perhaps the rookie on the other side can develop into it. Omameh sounds like another Seubert comp. Capable of getting the job done when a part of a well coached and disciplined group.
Physically it would seem Flowers is comparable if not more athletically gifted than Kareem, but will never have his intelligence.
The '08 group was prone to pressure around the edges as neither tackle was elite. They were a wall up front however which is exactly what suited the QB. Can this group perform similarly, allowing for a plus run game with a formidable play action attack?
And as we are #2 in the waiver wire (noted by Eric on another thread.. Â
Yeah, I think at least one and maybe even two veteran OL cuts could make it to our active roster this training camp.
I am just praying that the "starting" group stays healthy through camp so they aren't an embarrassment very early in the season. This is a new system and new coaching staff and gelling takes time for these "dancing bears.."
I hope the young guys show improvement and rookie Hernandez comes out of the gates guns blazing. I think he'll struggle in pass protection a bit early in the year as this ain't college but lets hope he learns fast.
I understand your mentality with evaluating the WRs Â
But when it comes to receiving threats the WRs cannot be looked at in a vacuum without talking RBs and TEs. So, yes, we aren't perfect at WR but overall I really like our receiving players.
When it comes to the OL I think you nailed it. It is very similar to prior years with all the question marks. I do feel better about the question marks this year though and feel that this is and will be an ongoing process to get the line where we want it to be. Best case scenario is that we have great competition that allows players to rise up amd perform well.
The good part about what Gettleman dix and what Reese/McAdoo failed to realize is that it ks easy to help out one OT and extremely difficult to help out both OTs. McAdoo never believed in having a RB chip a defender. It rarely happened. Barkley is a great pass protector so I wouldn't be surprised to see him help out in certain situations before leaking out for a dump off. We will also have one, if not both, of Engram and Ellison on the field. Line one up next to Flowers to give him help. It isn't ideal but teams have been doing that for decades. What teams haven't been doing for decades is putting their best OL on the inside of the line and their worst players on the outside because of some flawed scheme. McAdoo believed that the ball should be out before an edge rusher could get to the QB. How many times did we need tk see that in reality that didn't work? In theory I get it but when it doesn't work you have to adapt. McAdoo was such a stubborn douche that he really hindered the success of our team. Having a proven offensive mind in Shurmur is going to drastically change this team in a positive way.
...Not a single OL spot manned by last years starter, right?
ZERO depth. OK, unless Jerry, Jones and Wheeler inspire confidence.
Add a rookie RB to pick up blitzes.
Giants need to add a solid vet QB backup to the roster NOW.
Don't get me wrong - I actually feel better about this OL than last preseason, but I do worry for Eli's health.
Solder is a massive upgrade at LT over Flowers. If Hernandez is as good as advertised, we have a stud at left guard. I'm higher on Omameh than most here and think he's an upgrade over Jerry simply because he's a physical football player.
So we're better off than we were (if everyone stays healthy). Again, the questions are at center (where Sullivan would have helped) and RT (who the heck knows with Flowers? Again, I wouldn't be shocked if the starter at RT isn't even on the roster yet).
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
rather than pride. He saw himself as a more than adequate LT. In his mind, it was the immobility of Eli that made Flowers look bad. Moving to RT would mean both learning a new position and moving to a position that is not as highly valued as RT. The Giants may have shopped Flowers to prove to him that he was less than elite and that if he wanted to continue to make NFL money, he should change positions.
In comment [url=index.php?mode=2&thread=570189&show_all
Giants need to add a solid vet QB backup to the roster NOW.
[/quote]
Stop it! The OL last year was far worse than what we have for this year. The Giants are not adding a vet QB. If Eli goes down, Webb gets to show us what he is.
The most important addition to the Giants offensive line is Saquon Barkley.
He's gonna make it much easier for those guys to function, in both run and pass blocking, and he's gonna make them look a lot better than they really are.
Pass protection is a whole lot easier for the offensive line if you're throwing play-action passes when you're leading rather than drop back passes when you're trailing.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
Yeah, I read it. Discussions about the O-line are relevant and interesting, but you picked a lame starting point. Sorry if I came out 'assholey', but it just is.
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
Halapio is a guy i have been interested in/impressed by since last preseason. He has the size, work ethic, and is versatile (can play Center and both Guard spots). In the limited games he played late in the year, he looked really good and moved some people in the run game (watch some of Darkwas runs in the last game against the Redskins). Jones isn't a bad option and is a sound backup, but I would like to see Pio win that spot.
Tackle seems to be the biggest weak-point at the moment. We're hearing encouraging things about Flowers, but don't think his struggles won't follow him to the right side (bad technique is bad technique). Wheeler seems like a good find but can the Giants count on him if he is thrust into starting duty?
Overall, it's a much improved unit, but far from being one of the better lines in the NFL.
Giants need the Whole to be greater than the sum of the parts Â
If they can stay healthy and gel together this can be a decent offensive line. Let's see if this group of coaches can scheme some performance out of this group of guys.
Flowers, but I can't really foresee a situation where he'll be back next year. If he has a solid season, we probably won't be able to afford him. If he flops, he won't be resigned.
They just need it to be good enough that it isn't holding back the weapons they have in pass and run games. They have players who can make things happen --they just need a little bit of help up front, not a lot.
I'm not sure if we are there yet or not, but if we find our HC having to make adjusted play calls to compensate for lack of talent up front, this Oline is going to do what it has been, which is holding everything else back. Last year the impact was bad enough it was felt on both sides of the other side of the ball. What a waste of talent this will be if the O continues to limit. Hopefully they've done just enough.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
Yeah, I read it. Discussions about the O-line are relevant and interesting, but you picked a lame starting point. Sorry if I came out 'assholey', but it just is.
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
As I said, '08 is the benchmark OL for this franchise. It's also the last time the team was successful featuring an offense that relied more on the run, which I suspect this year's team will also do, as long as the defense can compliment that approach.
A better comparison would probably be last year's Minnesota offensive line, but I assumed most of us aren't as familiar with those players as the '08 line.
Shurmur was pretty successful with that group last year. With a middling QB, the rookie RB, Murray and Mckinnon, Diggs, Thielen, and the TE whose name has escaped me.
I think most would agree the Giants skill positions are comparable if not superior. How do the lines match up?
We are hoping a second round draft pick becomes a starter at LG, not just a body....
Surprised that Jones may be replaced at center....
Omameh can't possibly be as bad as Jerry was....
And Flowers, who we hope will "get it", is only a one year rental, anyways.....but he is playing for his next contract...that is about the only positive element of this....
But can they function as a unit? Solari couldn't do squat in two years.....and Hunter's resume is nothing to write home about.....
It's going to take somewhat of a miracle for this OL to not only stay healthy, but to come together as a group....they will be tested early with all kinds of stunt combinations, to see if they can or can not handle it.....
My expectations have been tempered....hopefully preseason action will reverse that trend....
Solder is definitely an big upgrade from Flowers.
Hernandez is probably an upgrade, perhaps a big upgrade from Pugh.
Jones beat out Richburg at center, and Halapio is in the process of beating out Jones, so it's an upgrade in any circumstance.
Omameh is an upgrade on Jerry. Perhaps a big upgrade.
Flowers could be anything from a push to an upgrade on Hart.
And a move or two this summer could further improve this group. I'm a happy camper.
Flower was not that bad at pass protection. Now, he had to have such a wide stance that it affected his run blocking.....either way, he is far better then Hart...and wheeler is not that bad swing tackle option.....
but the key is holding a clean pocket....
The center and guards collapsed the pocket too quickly and easily last few years....Eli can handle outside pressure far better if he can step up into a clean pocket as well as throw the ball.
This combo of guards and center must play strong....2hi h seems to be why Jones was "demoted".
Is not a one offseason miracle but we made one heck of a start getting Super Bowl winning Left Tackle who has blocked for the best QB of all time. Not to mention the drafting of Hernandez and the signing of Omameh. Next year if we can add another two FA Olineman/draft picks we will be golden. Stack that line, open those lanes for Barkley and protect the damn QB
We are hoping a second round draft pick becomes a starter at LG, not just a body....
Surprised that Jones may be replaced at center....
Omameh can't possibly be as bad as Jerry was....
And Flowers, who we hope will "get it", is only a one year rental, anyways.....but he is playing for his next contract...that is about the only positive element of this....
But can they function as a unit? Solari couldn't do squat in two years.....and Hunter's resume is nothing to write home about.....
It's going to take somewhat of a miracle for this OL to not only stay healthy, but to come together as a group....they will be tested early with all kinds of stunt combinations, to see if they can or can not handle it.....
My expectations have been tempered....hopefully preseason action will reverse that trend....
It can certainly be done. from 2003 to 2004, that OL group was wildly improved with a mix of free agents and a 2nd round rookie starting right away.
Plus, the head coach is a former offensive lineman. If anyone can manage it, they have the expertise to do so.
People are underestimating the potential impact of Solder/Hernandez. If they perform up to expectation the passing game should flourish. People have commented about Eli having happy feet in the pocket the past few years — and it’s certainly understandable given the state of not only his blind side but the line as a whole. If he trusts Solder/Hernandez and they perform, Eli holds the ball that much longer and the receivers have more time to get open.
If the right side doesn’t hold up (Flowers in particular), at least Eli will see the pressure. Schematically they can put a TE on the right side or cheat Barkley that way in pass pro.
My only concern at this point is pressure up the middle. I’m not confident in the center position, and Eli (or any QB for that matter) doesn’t deal well with pressure in his face. Hopefully Barkley is as good as advertised in pass pro.
I keep looking for supporting evidence that Omameh is a standout physical run blocker and everything I read says otherwise. He sounds so much like reports of Jerry when he was signed.
As I read the review and the responses I come away with one Â
MAJOR takeaway or thought: the starters must stay healthy through camp so they have a chance to gel more.
This is a whole new group; a whole new team; a whole new system for all of them. These "dancing bears" take time to learn each other and the techniques involved.
I'd hate for the Jags and Dallas to open the season beating this OL up not because it lacks talent but rather lacks cohesion. If this group can get through camp practicing together, well, it has a shot.
The biggest key outside of LT Solder and his improved play & leadership may be OG Hernandez. We need a guy you can run behind for that yard consistently. A mauler.
I don't know "why" per se, but I also think Flowers seems to have matured with a new agent. Erek knows this is a contract year for him and if he wants possible LT money he must handle RT well this year and be a good teammate. As he is right handed, well, lets just hope he does well. If we have an excellent LT and an acceptable RT that will help our pass offense immensely.
RE: I understand your mentality with evaluating the WRs Â
The good part about what Gettleman dix and what Reese/McAdoo failed to realize is that it ks easy to help out one OT and extremely difficult to help out both OTs. McAdoo never believed in having a RB chip a defender. It rarely happened. Barkley is a great pass protector so I wouldn't be surprised to see him help out in certain situations before leaking out for a dump off. We will also have one, if not both, of Engram and Ellison on the field. Line one up next to Flowers to give him help. It isn't ideal but teams have been doing that for decades. What teams haven't been doing for decades is putting their best OL on the inside of the line and their worst players on the outside because of some flawed scheme. McAdoo believed that the ball should be out before an edge rusher could get to the QB. How many times did we need tk see that in reality that didn't work? In theory I get it but when it doesn't work you have to adapt. McAdoo was such a stubborn douche that he really hindered the success of our team. Having a proven offensive mind in Shurmur is going to drastically change this team in a positive way.
Robbie..I agree with you 100%. I don't remember where exactly this statistic came from and I've seen it many times, but Mcadoo used the '11' formation 92% of the time 2 years ago, and some 70 percent last year. And as you said he never helped Flowers by chipping with the running back. Yes Flowers was a first round pick but not only was he raw, he was also very young. What was he 20 when he was drafted. Hell he's a 'wily ole vet'(just a figure of speech) at the ripe old age on 23. I still have hopes for him. With some better schemes and a little help I'm cautiously optimistic he'll improve. Hey he can't be any worse than Hart. Can he?
Reality is Flowers is just a bad offensive lineman and Â
we are going to have problems, to some degree, until he changes much in his technique or gets off the field. Yes we may not have much behind him, but at least those guys could have the right attitude to develop properly.
At this point Giant fans can only hope the new coaching staff and Solder will instill some discipline in his game, and he can build on it.
I still think a different RT will be starting at some point in the season...
I keep looking for supporting evidence that Omameh is a standout physical run blocker and everything I read says otherwise. He sounds so much like reports of Jerry when he was signed.
Jags were the #1 Rushing Offense in football with Omameh starting at Guard.
Do u think that is remotely possible with Jerry starting at Guard?
I keep looking for supporting evidence that Omameh is a standout physical run blocker and everything I read says otherwise. He sounds so much like reports of Jerry when he was signed.
I agree. He sounds more like a heads up player that will not let you down mentally, can pass protect, but will not help out much in the run game. Link - ( New Window )
Just saying they led the league in rushing is true but also doesn't mean much without context. Jacksonville also led the league in attempts. They were in the top third in ypc.
Check the chart below for how they ranked when running left, middle, and right. Up the middle they were not good (ranked 22nd). They were slightly above average at running left off tackle to the left. Those were their two worst areas.
Now, I am not beating up Omameh. I just dont think calling him a mauler in the run game is accurate. And there is a reason Jax was willing to let him go and outbid us for Norwell. Yes, Norwell is an upgrade but Jax isn't perfect and if they were happy "leading the league in rushing" then they would have resigned Omameh for much cheaper and used their cap space to fix other areas of the team. They obviously felt Norwell was a huge upgrade over Omameh. And that is fine. But I don't think we should just look at Omameh and say Jax led the league in rushing so he is going to be a staple along this OL for us. Imo, he's a patch that isn't guaranteed to start. He's still going to have to earn it but he does have the upper hand.
that I remember reading that Jax faced the most 8 man boxes by far in the NFL last year so it is really hard to look at stats and have them dictate anything. People love to put numbers to football but it isn't baseball. Baseball is very individualized so it works. Football is very dependent so unless all these dependent variables are accounted for taking a hard stance on any one statistic is foolish.
an example... when Omameh was with the Bears... look at the second play in particular... he blows out the lineman, but then comes off to get the linebacker. Jerry doesn't do stuff like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcJdNxAHJg - ( New Window )
The most important addition to the Giants offensive line is Saquon Barkley.
He's gonna make it much easier for those guys to function, in both run and pass blocking, and he's gonna make them look a lot better than they really are.
Pass protection is a whole lot easier for the offensive line if you're throwing play-action passes when you're leading rather than drop back passes when you're trailing.
I agree with this and also Shurmur's playcalling. He really keeps defenses off balance mixing it up. McAdoo was completely in over his head from a strategic standpoint (among other things) and made the OL look even worse than it was.
RE: Reality is Flowers is just a bad offensive lineman and Â
we are going to have problems, to some degree, until he changes much in his technique or gets off the field. Yes we may not have much behind him, but at least those guys could have the right attitude to develop properly.
At this point Giant fans can only hope the new coaching staff and Solder will instill some discipline in his game, and he can build on it.
I still think a different RT will be starting at some point in the season...
Let's assume that is true. He is not improved. Even so, he is less of a liability at ROT and he moved Hart out of the line up. Those are both pluses.
To use a baseball analogy, we went out and got a #1 starter. With other changes, Flowers who was a top of the rotation pitcher is now our #5 starter. We should be better.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
Yeah, I read it. Discussions about the O-line are relevant and interesting, but you picked a lame starting point. Sorry if I came out 'assholey', but it just is.
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
As I said, '08 is the benchmark OL for this franchise. It's also the last time the team was successful featuring an offense that relied more on the run, which I suspect this year's team will also do, as long as the defense can compliment that approach.
A better comparison would probably be last year's Minnesota offensive line, but I assumed most of us aren't as familiar with those players as the '08 line.
Shurmur was pretty successful with that group last year. With a middling QB, the rookie RB, Murray and Mckinnon, Diggs, Thielen, and the TE whose name has escaped me.
I think most would agree the Giants skill positions are comparable if not superior. How do the lines match up?
I think the 1986 and 1990 offensive lines would have something to say about 08 being the best. 1990 ran the ball down Buffalo's throat in the SB with an aging, slower, pounding back OJ Anderson.
The key to O-line success is how good will be be pass blocking for Eli (enabling him to do what he does best, play-action) and an optimum scheme and execution for Barkley.
My hope for him is that the Giants go to a zone scheme, where he can utilize his excellent vision, cut-back ability and speed.
Problem with Flowers is that he has been a disappointment as a run blocker too. That wasn't supposed to be an issue with him. Fingers crossed that he has a new attitude with new chemistry in the locker room, but that is probably wishful thinking.
Hopefully Flowers will see the move as a wake-up call.. Hopefully he now has a chip on his shoulder and uses it to motivate himself to be the best RT he is capable of being. We will see but, as said - probably wishful thinking. But, we will see.
Flowers is the key in a sense no reason he couldn't turn out
to be a solid starter .
Was begging for a center in the draft and we still need some help another Tackle and someone to compete at center would be great . I feel were gonna be a heck of a lot better in terms
of breakdowns and will be stronger in run blocking but
Flowers can really help if he just gets to the point of being solid limited mistakes and uses his power .
Great Job Eric your reports and analysts grown better with age . Â
Flowers is the key in a sense no reason he couldn't turn out
to be a solid starter .
Was begging for a center in the draft and we still need some help another Tackle and someone to compete at center would be great . I feel were gonna be a heck of a lot better in terms
of breakdowns and will be stronger in run blocking but
Flowers can really help if he just gets to the point of being solid limited mistakes and uses his power .
I think the 1986 and 1990 offensive lines would have something to say about 08 being the best. 1990 ran the ball down Buffalo's throat in the SB with an aging, slower, pounding back OJ Anderson.
I was lucky enough to witness all 3 of those great squads in person.
It's not even close. As a run blocking unit, they were head and shoulders better than any unit I've ever seen the Giants field. Keep in mind, in 86' the Giants really didn't blossom into a monster until the last month of the season and in 1990, Hampton was injured and OJ was ancient so there was a handicap to stats there - but still, 2008 was FAR better than any rushing unit the team ever had.
is basic bread and butter execution in the running game in pre-game in which we see a rushing game NOT depending on a 3rd and pass tendency. If you reflect back to our dominate rushing configurations, they demonstrated in pre-season push on the oline. Basics.
Personally, I think Greco May emerge as the first off the bench at either guard position. I think he also has some game experience at center and tackle. Unless Father Time takes him out.
In any case Flowers is certainly an upgrade over Bobby Hart in pass protection and especially as a run blocker. So we should see improvement at both tackles and both guards. I know I tend to be an optimist, but I see this line as average and maybe slightly better than average.
We can only hope he pulls his head out his ass and gets his ego out of the way. He is still a young guy but he has to realize that this season is going to gain or lose money for him.
Obviously cohesion and chemistry can't be compared and shouldn't be expected, but what about in terms of shear size and power?
Solder and Diehl actually are similar players. Tall and athletic. Not road graders.
The rookie and Seubert appear to have a similar mentality. How do they compare physically?
O'hara was smaller but technically sound and benefited from Snee. Jones actually seems like a similar player. I don't know much about Halapio.
There is noone near Snee in this group. Perhaps the rookie on the other side can develop into it. Omameh sounds like another Seubert comp. Capable of getting the job done when a part of a well coached and disciplined group.
Physically it would seem Flowers is comparable if not more athletically gifted than Kareem, but will never have his intelligence.
The '08 group was prone to pressure around the edges as neither tackle was elite. They were a wall up front however which is exactly what suited the QB. Can this group perform similarly, allowing for a plus run game with a formidable play action attack?
I am just praying that the "starting" group stays healthy through camp so they aren't an embarrassment very early in the season. This is a new system and new coaching staff and gelling takes time for these "dancing bears.."
LT Solder LT Hernandez OC Hilapio RG Omameh RT Flowers (Wheeler swing tackle, Greco swing interior, Jones backup OC and OG).
I hope the young guys show improvement and rookie Hernandez comes out of the gates guns blazing. I think he'll struggle in pass protection a bit early in the year as this ain't college but lets hope he learns fast.
When it comes to the OL I think you nailed it. It is very similar to prior years with all the question marks. I do feel better about the question marks this year though and feel that this is and will be an ongoing process to get the line where we want it to be. Best case scenario is that we have great competition that allows players to rise up amd perform well.
The good part about what Gettleman dix and what Reese/McAdoo failed to realize is that it ks easy to help out one OT and extremely difficult to help out both OTs. McAdoo never believed in having a RB chip a defender. It rarely happened. Barkley is a great pass protector so I wouldn't be surprised to see him help out in certain situations before leaking out for a dump off. We will also have one, if not both, of Engram and Ellison on the field. Line one up next to Flowers to give him help. It isn't ideal but teams have been doing that for decades. What teams haven't been doing for decades is putting their best OL on the inside of the line and their worst players on the outside because of some flawed scheme. McAdoo believed that the ball should be out before an edge rusher could get to the QB. How many times did we need tk see that in reality that didn't work? In theory I get it but when it doesn't work you have to adapt. McAdoo was such a stubborn douche that he really hindered the success of our team. Having a proven offensive mind in Shurmur is going to drastically change this team in a positive way.
ZERO depth. OK, unless Jerry, Jones and Wheeler inspire confidence.
Add a rookie RB to pick up blitzes.
Giants need to add a solid vet QB backup to the roster NOW.
Don't get me wrong - I actually feel better about this OL than last preseason, but I do worry for Eli's health.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
ZERO depth. OK, unless Jerry, Jones and Wheeler inspire confidence.
Add a rookie RB to pick up blitzes.
Giants need to add a solid vet QB backup to the roster NOW.
Don't get me wrong - I actually feel better about this OL than last preseason, but I do worry for Eli's health.
Solder is a massive upgrade at LT over Flowers. If Hernandez is as good as advertised, we have a stud at left guard. I'm higher on Omameh than most here and think he's an upgrade over Jerry simply because he's a physical football player.
So we're better off than we were (if everyone stays healthy). Again, the questions are at center (where Sullivan would have helped) and RT (who the heck knows with Flowers? Again, I wouldn't be shocked if the starter at RT isn't even on the roster yet).
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
...and that applies to the O-line in spades.
We are better than last year.
Are we approaching the middle of the pack with newcomers Solder, Hernandez, Omameh and, then everyone else?
That's the big question.
If, yes, I think we will all be pleasantly surprised with this offense.
If, no, we're picking in the Top 10 come 2019 Draft.
Giants need to add a solid vet QB backup to the roster NOW.
[/quote]
Stop it! The OL last year was far worse than what we have for this year. The Giants are not adding a vet QB. If Eli goes down, Webb gets to show us what he is.
He's gonna make it much easier for those guys to function, in both run and pass blocking, and he's gonna make them look a lot better than they really are.
Pass protection is a whole lot easier for the offensive line if you're throwing play-action passes when you're leading rather than drop back passes when you're trailing.
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You may as well compare them to the 73' Dolphins.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
Tackle seems to be the biggest weak-point at the moment. We're hearing encouraging things about Flowers, but don't think his struggles won't follow him to the right side (bad technique is bad technique). Wheeler seems like a good find but can the Giants count on him if he is thrust into starting duty?
Overall, it's a much improved unit, but far from being one of the better lines in the NFL.
He will outplay rookie Hernandez.
Underrated signing by Gettleman.
I'm not sure if we are there yet or not, but if we find our HC having to make adjusted play calls to compensate for lack of talent up front, this Oline is going to do what it has been, which is holding everything else back. Last year the impact was bad enough it was felt on both sides of the other side of the ball. What a waste of talent this will be if the O continues to limit. Hopefully they've done just enough.
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In comment 14004353 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
You may as well compare them to the 73' Dolphins.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
Yeah, I read it. Discussions about the O-line are relevant and interesting, but you picked a lame starting point. Sorry if I came out 'assholey', but it just is.
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
As I said, '08 is the benchmark OL for this franchise. It's also the last time the team was successful featuring an offense that relied more on the run, which I suspect this year's team will also do, as long as the defense can compliment that approach.
A better comparison would probably be last year's Minnesota offensive line, but I assumed most of us aren't as familiar with those players as the '08 line.
Shurmur was pretty successful with that group last year. With a middling QB, the rookie RB, Murray and Mckinnon, Diggs, Thielen, and the TE whose name has escaped me.
I think most would agree the Giants skill positions are comparable if not superior. How do the lines match up?
We are hoping a second round draft pick becomes a starter at LG, not just a body....
Surprised that Jones may be replaced at center....
Omameh can't possibly be as bad as Jerry was....
And Flowers, who we hope will "get it", is only a one year rental, anyways.....but he is playing for his next contract...that is about the only positive element of this....
But can they function as a unit? Solari couldn't do squat in two years.....and Hunter's resume is nothing to write home about.....
It's going to take somewhat of a miracle for this OL to not only stay healthy, but to come together as a group....they will be tested early with all kinds of stunt combinations, to see if they can or can not handle it.....
My expectations have been tempered....hopefully preseason action will reverse that trend....
Hernandez is probably an upgrade, perhaps a big upgrade from Pugh.
Jones beat out Richburg at center, and Halapio is in the process of beating out Jones, so it's an upgrade in any circumstance.
Omameh is an upgrade on Jerry. Perhaps a big upgrade.
Flowers could be anything from a push to an upgrade on Hart.
And a move or two this summer could further improve this group. I'm a happy camper.
but the key is holding a clean pocket....
The center and guards collapsed the pocket too quickly and easily last few years....Eli can handle outside pressure far better if he can step up into a clean pocket as well as throw the ball.
This combo of guards and center must play strong....2hi h seems to be why Jones was "demoted".
We are hoping a second round draft pick becomes a starter at LG, not just a body....
Surprised that Jones may be replaced at center....
Omameh can't possibly be as bad as Jerry was....
And Flowers, who we hope will "get it", is only a one year rental, anyways.....but he is playing for his next contract...that is about the only positive element of this....
But can they function as a unit? Solari couldn't do squat in two years.....and Hunter's resume is nothing to write home about.....
It's going to take somewhat of a miracle for this OL to not only stay healthy, but to come together as a group....they will be tested early with all kinds of stunt combinations, to see if they can or can not handle it.....
My expectations have been tempered....hopefully preseason action will reverse that trend....
It can certainly be done. from 2003 to 2004, that OL group was wildly improved with a mix of free agents and a 2nd round rookie starting right away.
Plus, the head coach is a former offensive lineman. If anyone can manage it, they have the expertise to do so.
If the right side doesn’t hold up (Flowers in particular), at least Eli will see the pressure. Schematically they can put a TE on the right side or cheat Barkley that way in pass pro.
My only concern at this point is pressure up the middle. I’m not confident in the center position, and Eli (or any QB for that matter) doesn’t deal well with pressure in his face. Hopefully Barkley is as good as advertised in pass pro.
This is a whole new group; a whole new team; a whole new system for all of them. These "dancing bears" take time to learn each other and the techniques involved.
I'd hate for the Jags and Dallas to open the season beating this OL up not because it lacks talent but rather lacks cohesion. If this group can get through camp practicing together, well, it has a shot.
The biggest key outside of LT Solder and his improved play & leadership may be OG Hernandez. We need a guy you can run behind for that yard consistently. A mauler.
I don't know "why" per se, but I also think Flowers seems to have matured with a new agent. Erek knows this is a contract year for him and if he wants possible LT money he must handle RT well this year and be a good teammate. As he is right handed, well, lets just hope he does well. If we have an excellent LT and an acceptable RT that will help our pass offense immensely.
The good part about what Gettleman dix and what Reese/McAdoo failed to realize is that it ks easy to help out one OT and extremely difficult to help out both OTs. McAdoo never believed in having a RB chip a defender. It rarely happened. Barkley is a great pass protector so I wouldn't be surprised to see him help out in certain situations before leaking out for a dump off. We will also have one, if not both, of Engram and Ellison on the field. Line one up next to Flowers to give him help. It isn't ideal but teams have been doing that for decades. What teams haven't been doing for decades is putting their best OL on the inside of the line and their worst players on the outside because of some flawed scheme. McAdoo believed that the ball should be out before an edge rusher could get to the QB. How many times did we need tk see that in reality that didn't work? In theory I get it but when it doesn't work you have to adapt. McAdoo was such a stubborn douche that he really hindered the success of our team. Having a proven offensive mind in Shurmur is going to drastically change this team in a positive way.
Robbie..I agree with you 100%. I don't remember where exactly this statistic came from and I've seen it many times, but Mcadoo used the '11' formation 92% of the time 2 years ago, and some 70 percent last year. And as you said he never helped Flowers by chipping with the running back. Yes Flowers was a first round pick but not only was he raw, he was also very young. What was he 20 when he was drafted. Hell he's a 'wily ole vet'(just a figure of speech) at the ripe old age on 23. I still have hopes for him. With some better schemes and a little help I'm cautiously optimistic he'll improve. Hey he can't be any worse than Hart. Can he?
At this point Giant fans can only hope the new coaching staff and Solder will instill some discipline in his game, and he can build on it.
I still think a different RT will be starting at some point in the season...
Jags were the #1 Rushing Offense in football with Omameh starting at Guard.
Do u think that is remotely possible with Jerry starting at Guard?
I agree. He sounds more like a heads up player that will not let you down mentally, can pass protect, but will not help out much in the run game.
Link - ( New Window )
Check the chart below for how they ranked when running left, middle, and right. Up the middle they were not good (ranked 22nd). They were slightly above average at running left off tackle to the left. Those were their two worst areas.
Now, I am not beating up Omameh. I just dont think calling him a mauler in the run game is accurate. And there is a reason Jax was willing to let him go and outbid us for Norwell. Yes, Norwell is an upgrade but Jax isn't perfect and if they were happy "leading the league in rushing" then they would have resigned Omameh for much cheaper and used their cap space to fix other areas of the team. They obviously felt Norwell was a huge upgrade over Omameh. And that is fine. But I don't think we should just look at Omameh and say Jax led the league in rushing so he is going to be a staple along this OL for us. Imo, he's a patch that isn't guaranteed to start. He's still going to have to earn it but he does have the upper hand.
Link - ( New Window )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcJdNxAHJg - ( New Window )
He's gonna make it much easier for those guys to function, in both run and pass blocking, and he's gonna make them look a lot better than they really are.
Pass protection is a whole lot easier for the offensive line if you're throwing play-action passes when you're leading rather than drop back passes when you're trailing.
I agree with this and also Shurmur's playcalling. He really keeps defenses off balance mixing it up. McAdoo was completely in over his head from a strategic standpoint (among other things) and made the OL look even worse than it was.
At this point Giant fans can only hope the new coaching staff and Solder will instill some discipline in his game, and he can build on it.
I still think a different RT will be starting at some point in the season...
Let's assume that is true. He is not improved. Even so, he is less of a liability at ROT and he moved Hart out of the line up. Those are both pluses.
To use a baseball analogy, we went out and got a #1 starter. With other changes, Flowers who was a top of the rotation pitcher is now our #5 starter. We should be better.
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In comment 14004379 mako J said:
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In comment 14004353 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
You may as well compare them to the 73' Dolphins.
It's an insult to 08' to even try to compare them.
That was the best line NYG ever has ever fielded.
Just couldn't help yourself huh? Had to post a knee-jerk assholish response.
Compare is the key word. Compare the hairyness of their asses? Compare their breakfast cereal preferences? Compare their taste in sit-coms? Compare their place in the "anals" of Giants history?
Or read what I wrote, decide you're interested in the actual question proposed, and respond with something that advances the conversation.
The route concepts will likely be vastly different than what KG coached, but the commitment to run and play action may be similar. At least I hope. Hence the question, how does this group compare to the '08 group in their physical abilities? Can they establish a power presence?
Yeah, I read it. Discussions about the O-line are relevant and interesting, but you picked a lame starting point. Sorry if I came out 'assholey', but it just is.
08' is gone. It's not like Diehl and Snee retired last season, ALL the skill players, the coaches, the GMA - the entire system are GONE. The only constant is Manning and he isn't the QB he was back then, when he could still get out of his own way (the Tyree throw doesn't happen in 2018).
Comparing to last season makes more sense, though even there - Barkley is going to change everything.
As I said, '08 is the benchmark OL for this franchise. It's also the last time the team was successful featuring an offense that relied more on the run, which I suspect this year's team will also do, as long as the defense can compliment that approach.
A better comparison would probably be last year's Minnesota offensive line, but I assumed most of us aren't as familiar with those players as the '08 line.
Shurmur was pretty successful with that group last year. With a middling QB, the rookie RB, Murray and Mckinnon, Diggs, Thielen, and the TE whose name has escaped me.
I think most would agree the Giants skill positions are comparable if not superior. How do the lines match up?
I think the 1986 and 1990 offensive lines would have something to say about 08 being the best. 1990 ran the ball down Buffalo's throat in the SB with an aging, slower, pounding back OJ Anderson.
Let's assume that is true. He is not improved. Even so, he is less of a liability at ROT and he moved Hart out of the line up. Those are both pluses.
While I get the thinking, being "less of liability" seems to be the ceiling here unless he changes his spots...
Hernandez is a pure mauler.
The key to O-line success is how good will be be pass blocking for Eli (enabling him to do what he does best, play-action) and an optimum scheme and execution for Barkley.
My hope for him is that the Giants go to a zone scheme, where he can utilize his excellent vision, cut-back ability and speed.
Hopefully Flowers will see the move as a wake-up call.. Hopefully he now has a chip on his shoulder and uses it to motivate himself to be the best RT he is capable of being. We will see but, as said - probably wishful thinking. But, we will see.
"Will Hernandez has flashed a much-needed enforcer mentality."
to be a solid starter .
Was begging for a center in the draft and we still need some help another Tackle and someone to compete at center would be great . I feel were gonna be a heck of a lot better in terms
of breakdowns and will be stronger in run blocking but
Flowers can really help if he just gets to the point of being solid limited mistakes and uses his power .
to be a solid starter .
Was begging for a center in the draft and we still need some help another Tackle and someone to compete at center would be great . I feel were gonna be a heck of a lot better in terms
of breakdowns and will be stronger in run blocking but
Flowers can really help if he just gets to the point of being solid limited mistakes and uses his power .
It's not even close. As a run blocking unit, they were head and shoulders better than any unit I've ever seen the Giants field. Keep in mind, in 86' the Giants really didn't blossom into a monster until the last month of the season and in 1990, Hampton was injured and OJ was ancient so there was a handicap to stats there - but still, 2008 was FAR better than any rushing unit the team ever had.
By the numbers:
1986 rushing: 2049 yards, 3.8 ypc
- Joe Morris, 1516 yards, 4.4 ypc
1990 rushing: 2245 yards, 4.0 ypc
- OJ Anderson, 784 yards, 3.5 ypc
- Rodney Hampton, 455 yards, 4.2 ypc
2008 rushing: 2518 yards, 5.0 ypc (FIVE)
- Brandon Jacobs, 1089 yards, 5.0 ypc
- Derrick Ward, 1025 yards, 5.6 ypc (Also had 355 yards receiving)
2008 the Giants led the league in rushing.
- Ahmad Bradshaw 355 yards, 5.3 ypc