NFT: What kind of drinker are you?

In comment 14008506 Jimmy Googs said:

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boy, could I use a drink...

Same here.

Found a very interesting article (linked below)... in a nutshell: homo sapiens have been imbibing alcohol for over 9,000 years, in virtual every society known in history. The origins of our reliance upon alcohol is thought to be because

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Alcohol may afford psychic pleasures and spiritual insight, but that’s not enough to explain its universality in the ancient world. People drank the stuff for the same reason primates ate fermented fruit: because it was good for them. Yeasts produce ethanol as a form of chemical warfare—it’s toxic to other microbes that compete with them for sugar inside a fruit. That antimicrobial effect benefits the drinker. It explains why beer, wine, and other fermented beverages were, at least until the rise of modern sanitation, often healthier to drink than water.

...

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[Alcohol] is much more tasty than warm water filled with microorganisms.

Apparently, homo sapiens relied very heavily upon alcohol as a safe way to drink water... it provided protection against unhealthy micro-organisms in natural water, and it tasted better (and caused a buzz too).

Our body's ability to process alcohol

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may be a critical gene mutation that occurred in the last common ancestor of African apes and us; geneticists recently dated the mutation to at least 10 million years ago. This change in the ADH4 gene created an enzyme that made it possible to digest ethanol up to 40 times faster.

Over time, homo sapiens began using alcohol for reasons beyond being a safe way to drink water. For the buzz. Which has led to problems over time.

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The modern world is awash in booze, and ever since the perfection of distillation in the Middle Ages, we’ve consumed a lot of it in concentrated form. Worldwide, people age 15 and over average about a drink a day—or more like two if you include only drinkers, because about half of us have never touched a drop. In the United States, alcohol abuse kills 88,000 Americans and costs $249 billion a year, according to estimates by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Millions of years ago, when food was harder to come by, the attraction to ethanol and the brain chemistry that lit up to reward the discovery of fermented fruit may have been a critical survival advantage for our primate ancestors. Today those genetic and neurochemical traits may be at the root of compulsive drinking, says Robert Dudley, whose father was an alcoholic. Throughout history, ethanol’s intoxicating power has made it an object of concern...

This article addresses a large part of what I was trying to discuss... an explanation for why humans have their very obvious genetic need to consume alcohol... However, the article still stops short of adequately explaining alcohol's role in social interaction... for a species universally called "highly social", I find it very strange that humans apparently require mind altering substances to soften the edges of social anxiety which appears to be a basic human trait.
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humans don't "require" mind altering substances or have a genetic need to consume them.

That's the crux of almost all of your posts on this thread. It's like trying to say singing and dancing or listening to music is required for social gatherings or that our bodies have a genetic need to gyrate.

Almost every culture has origins that trace back to fermentation, music and dance. Some even have a culture of smoking things. Tribal customs. Communal gatherings involved food, drink and song in the past and continue to this day.

Not sure where the wonderment is - unless you've now come to believe humans NEED alcohol, which is a faulty assumption. But one you're clinging to tightly here.

In comment 14008717 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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humans don't "require" mind altering substances or have a genetic need to consume them. That's the crux of almost all of your posts on this thread. It's like trying to say singing and dancing or listening to music is required for social gatherings or that our bodies have a genetic need to gyrate. Almost every culture has origins that trace back to fermentation, music and dance. Some even have a culture of smoking things. Tribal customs. Communal gatherings involved food, drink and song in the past and continue to this day. Not sure where the wonderment is - unless you've now come to believe humans NEED alcohol, which is a faulty assumption. But one you're clinging to tightly here.

I think you are pretty clearly wrong. Alcohol use dates beach 9000 years across independent civilizations... and continues to this day ... in fact what I read says it’s usage is highest ever seen... and it is genetic ... and provided survival benefits (clean drinking water) ... article indicates it also loosened our ancestors up from their anxieties in social settings

all of this is pretty much what I guessed ... there was no way alcohol could be such a huge part of how the human species socializes without there being a pretty strong genetic predisposition

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there was no way alcohol could be such a huge part of how the human species socializes without there being a pretty strong genetic predisposition

So anything the species does as a huge part of socializing is a genetic predisposition?

I guess humans are predisposed to athletic competitions, singing, dancing, and making music too? Extrapolating out, I guess since humans have produced art since their origin that it is a genetic predisposition too?

When humans gather, they often interact. They don't just sit silently. So they gather for meals, for celebrations, or simply for friendship. Many things, including alcohol, are used in these social settings.

Not sure how one makes the leap to things being genetically needed because they are done in social settings. All cultures have competition, music, dance and art.

(Alcohol, drugs, sex, food, materialism, etc) has been widely hypothesized but never directly proven, let alone a genetic predisposition in the entire population to consume alcohol. A much bigger factor is the presence of trauma, but that's a completely different debate. You sound like a morally superior member of a temperance movement.

In comment 14008858 baadbill said:

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In comment 14008717 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: humans don't "require" mind altering substances or have a genetic need to consume them. That's the crux of almost all of your posts on this thread. It's like trying to say singing and dancing or listening to music is required for social gatherings or that our bodies have a genetic need to gyrate. Almost every culture has origins that trace back to fermentation, music and dance. Some even have a culture of smoking things. Tribal customs. Communal gatherings involved food, drink and song in the past and continue to this day. Not sure where the wonderment is - unless you've now come to believe humans NEED alcohol, which is a faulty assumption. But one you're clinging to tightly here. I think you are pretty clearly wrong. Alcohol use dates beach 9000 years across independent civilizations... and continues to this day ... in fact what I read says it’s usage is highest ever seen... and it is genetic ... and provided survival benefits (clean drinking water) ... article indicates it also loosened our ancestors up from their anxieties in social settings all of this is pretty much what I guessed ... there was no way alcohol could be such a huge part of how the human species socializes without there being a pretty strong genetic predisposition

Have you come across actual scientific proof of this genetic predisposition thing you keep pushing or is it a conclusion you've drawn for yourself and keep stating as fact?

Meditation makes me feel good, reduces my anxiety and stress, and makes me feel good overall. Does that mean I have a genetic predisposition to meditating?

What if I find a certain type of tea (i.e.. Chamomile) relaxes me and enjoy consuming it on a regular basis? Genetic predisposition?

Your angle here is sort of ridiculous.

Then these will be the same people yelling on Facebook about how addiction is a disease and all that shit.

Sobriety is the only way to go through life.

it is a pretty bizarre thread.

Guy comes in with a wonderment on why humans have drank since their origin and instead of accepting it as a cultural practice, instead makes it into a genetic need.

Have no clue where the parallels to having a safe way to ingest fluid fuse into being a genetic need, but I guess it is there.

Next up - a discussion on how breathing in smoke to get high is a genetic need too since people have done it since early times and humans need to breathe to live!

In comment 14008894 Aqua Giants said:

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Then these will be the same people yelling on Facebook about how addiction is a disease and all that shit. Sobriety is the only way to go through life.

Haha, well your true colors sure are showing. Glad you finally came out and said it. If you aren’t sober you are doing it wrong....alrighty big shot.

For whatever reason you choose not to engage in this particular cultural pastime. You've apparently experienced some friction, real or perceived, due to this choice. My guess would be a little of both. And that can be difficult. Feeling marginalized for not participating in something we see the majority doing can be uncomfortable. So the brain looks for a way to cope. That's all completely natural. But for some reason you've chosen to reject the far more rational idea, i.e.- "some people are just assholes completely independent of chemical consumption", and chosen to pathologize the entire behavior. This allows you to claim some misguided sense of superiority, be it genetic, intellectual, moral, etc.

There's nothing wrong with social use of alcohol. There's nothing wrong with not socially using alcohol. It's not a statement or indication of anything about our genetic code.

to color their perception of "sobriety", especially in the context of recovery or a 12 step fellowship. Proselytizing is not a part of that and is actually discouraged. For obvious reasons. Not only is it ridiculously annoying, but it can steer someone in need away from seeking help.

The way this thread is going, I'm going to need a 6 pack tonight.

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... SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11:39 am : link : reply The way this thread is going, I'm going to need a 6 pack tonight.

I wonder if you have to drink that in a social setting to fulfill the genetic need for alcohol??

In comment 14008916 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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The way this thread is going, I'm going to need a 6 pack tonight.

You would need that regardless. You're a slave to the double helix my friend...

In comment 14008916 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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The way this thread is going, I'm going to need a 6 pack tonight.

It really is nuts. I’m open to anyone’s views on any topic but once you make bold accusations or state something as fact that clearly isn’t, I’m going to call you out on it.

In comment 14008894 Aqua Giants said:

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Then these will be the same people yelling on Facebook about how addiction is a disease and all that shit. Sobriety is the only way to go through life.

What was/is your previous/other BBI handle?

a Simo

countless other handles

In comment 14008943 Mr. Bungle said:

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In comment 14008894 Aqua Giants said: Quote: Then these will be the same people yelling on Facebook about how addiction is a disease and all that shit. Sobriety is the only way to go through life. What was/is your previous/other BBI handle?

FMiC posited he's another simo dupe.

.

It started out as a frivolous thread & has devolved into 'Sobriety is the only way to go through life', which reeks of something someone who had problems with substance abuse would now say.

Also, I never thought we'd be debating our genetic code when this thread started.

Well done BBI. Well done.

Alcohol usage dates back at least 9,000 years... consistently since then... and something that consistent wasn't cave men just deciding to get a buzz

But one thing I want to make clear ... I still drink occasionally and I have nothing against alcohol consumption... and I consumed alcohol the majority of my adult life... but I also struggle with some social anxiety (speech making; yet zero problem "performing" in front of crowds whether that be sports or jury trials)... and I am socially awkward in certain settings... as a result I have been interested in the study of human social interactions... I've come to learn that humans have a fairly high level of anxiety in certain social settings and it's interesting to read that article I cited that suggests alcohol was likely used by our ancestors (and humans today) to lessen anxiety in social settings

I go to the local bar and shoot pool with my wife once a month and usually consume 3-5 beers... I just find it interesting why the homo sapiens species found itself relying upon artificial mind altering substances more than any other species ... and it certainly was never pre-ordained that we would need mind altering substances... nor that such substances would even impact our brains (nor that we would find it fun - as we all do) ... we developed this way for a reason ... I'm just one who likes to try to understand these things ... it doesn't cause me to drink any more or less ... but I do like to try to understand my behaviors from the context of what is in our genetic history (and if homo sapiens has acted in a certain way for 9,000 years, I'd call that genetic... if you have a different word for it, I'd love to hear it)

now you're playing the role of anthropologist??

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I just find it interesting why the homo sapiens species found itself relying upon artificial mind altering substances more than any other species

Umm, since homo sapiens can actually create substances, that's why they use them more than other species - it isn't that difficult of a concept.

Animals have partaken in mind-altering plants and fermented things, but they are reliant on nature to produce it for them.

You also keep saying a variation of this:

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Alcohol usage dates back at least 9,000 years... consistently since then... and something that consistent wasn't cave men just deciding to get a buzz

Dancing, music, chanting/singing also dates back that long. And it wasn't done just to gyrate, I'm assuming, so does that make those activities also inherent to genetics?

Dude, you are trying to posit that you understand genetics, when with each successive post it is clear you don't.

What's the point?

You could probably consider caffeine "mind-altering" too, technically - a lot of people have at least one cup of coffee each day because they feel like they need it to be alert and take care of their daily tasks. Do you think people have genetic predispositions to coffee?

I think you're looking too hard for a answer that's very simple and on the surface.

back to at least 2367 BC.

Genetic, for sure

Of pretty gross fraud is telling people to be sober? Thats ironic

a book ("The Drunken Monkey") written by a professor of biology at the University of California, Berkeley that explains the evolutionary/genetic basis for human's current widespread consumption of alcohol.


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you are so fascinated to understand why humans, as a species, are so reliant upon alcohol consumption /s

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Mixing booze and food is such a good survival strategy that the only monkeys who fucked enough to pass on their genes were the ones who drank. And yes, there's hard scientific evidence to support that claim.

Absolutely genetics.

I'm not going to read two books... I do have a life (although nobody here would ever know it)... I'm just not sure which of the two books to read... I'll be sure to keep you all up to date /s

oops .... linky
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that comment - "Absolutely genetics".

Your grasp of science really isn't a strong suit.

But I give you props - you keep trying.

Maybe genetic too?

a good beer. Definitely genetics.

And actually, humans ability to digest the ethanol (alcohol) in rotting fruit was due to a GENETIC adaption (evolutionary adaptation) from 10 million years ago.

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This makes sense because our arboreal ancestors 40 million years ago were eating leaves (and fruits). So being able to metabolise the chemicals in leaves would have been a really big advantage," says Carrigan. The exposure to ethanol would have been minimal for these ancestors as they had access to unfermented fruits, he adds. Millions of years later, when ADH4 encountered ethanol in high concentrations in fermenting fruit, it adapted to digesting it really well. "It went from an enzyme that metabolised ethanol incredibly slow to one that metabolized ethanol 40-fold more efficiently," says Carrigan. This was due to a single tweak in the enzyme. This change in ADH4 that occurred 10 million years ago enabled the last common ancestor of humans, chimpanzees and gorillas to break down ethanol.

Ethanol (alcohol) is toxic to most animals except those that have the genetic ADH4 adaptation enabling them to process ethanol and thus enabling them to consume rotting fruit. Science has established that our predecessors obtained that genetic adaptation 10 million years ago.

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Natural selection would favour this special ability because it allows these animals to access calories that would normally be toxic to other animals. Those organisms would avoid alcohol because it can impair judgement and is a chemical toxin," says Gochman

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The article completely ignores the evolutionary reasons behind our genetic predisposition to be drawn by the taste and smell of alchohol.

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The goal of using drugs is formed in the same way as any other goal. It is determined largely by, first, the value that the person places on drugs and, second, the person’s expected chances of being able to get the desired benefits from their use. This view can be applied to explain the reasons why people decide to drink. The decision to drink alcohol will depend on the value that the person attributes to drinking alcohol (i.e., to elevate positive mood, alleviate negative mood and anxiety, or increase confidence) and the person’s expectation that these outcomes will actually happen.

I've not yet seen any expl not as interested in the involved in consuming alcohol, but for those that are

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now you're confusing genetic mutations with having a genetic need.

Humans have had thousands of genetic adaptations to survive.

You're really obsessed with trying to say that humans have a genetic disposition to alcohol, even though there are numerous examples of social gatherings where alcohol isn't present, there are societies who don't use alcohol and that addiction to alcohol is still a fairly low percentage.

You'd think based on the discussion that alcohol is necessary for people to socially function much like breathing is essential to life.

You can quote authors, but science isn't on your side, even if you keep thinking it is.

rotting fruit on the ground which contained lots of calories. But the rotting fruit was naturally fermenting, producing ethanol which is toxic. Our predecessors evolved a liver that can deal with toxins (process them quickly to get them out of our body). This adaptation occurred 10 million years ago - and gave us a leg up in survival since we could digest rotting fruits that remained toxic to the majority of other animals.

Humans evolved while eating and drinking a lot of toxins in our food, so to adapt to this we evolved a liver that can deal with toxins.

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Humans Are Hard-Wired To Drink... There are endless arguments for why people drink, the simplest being that alcohol is tasty and it makes us feel good. But those reasons do not address the ultimate explanation for why our brains evolved to like alcohol in the first place... Our bodies have preserved the biological urge to drink from when alcohol sources were few and far between, even though we live in an age where the supply is unlimited.

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developed immunity to diseases.

Confusion with what is genetic disposition is rampant here.

This thread is going to make me go on a bender.

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Researchers believe people have begun evolving so they find it so unpleasant it could stop our species from drinking in the future

An ongoing change in the ADH4 gene - the 10 million year old gene that changed our liver to process alcohol more quickly, is apparently continuing to evolve such that it now appears to be making alcohol consumption unpleasant to more and more people.

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Your desire to consume alcohol, as well as your body’s ability to break down the ethanol that makes you tipsy, dates back about 10 million years, researchers have discovered. The new finding not only helps shed light on the behavior of our primate ancestors, but also might explain why alcoholism—or even the craving for a single drink—exists in the first place. “The fact that they could put together all this evolutionary history was really fascinating,” says Brenda Benefit, an anthropologist at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, who was not involved in the study.

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is staggering.

Here's what you said above:

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I've come to learn that humans have a fairly high level of anxiety in certain social settings and it's interesting to read that article I cited that suggests alcohol was likely used by our ancestors (and humans today) to lessen anxiety in social settings

Everything you've posted since indicates alcohol is used for survival of the species, with repeated citings of articles talking about genetic evolution.

So now we've evolved to help us adapt socially??

LOL. I'm done now.

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obsessed with trying to say that humans have a genetic disposition to alcohol

And within 30 minutes I easily show that, yes, there is a genetic disposition to alcohol. Fatman, like so many people, are very good at moving the goal posts when he is shown to be wrong. But that's his gig on BBI. Entertaining. He often makes me laugh.

you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing Fatman of, moving goal posts. You started by making a sweeping accusation that adults need alcohol to socialize and that its disturbing. Then it changed to genetic predisposition. Now its evolution. You also called alcohol a stimulant and kept doing so even after corrected.

I'm not longer interested in arguing with you, but you are 100% twisting this thread every possible way to avoid admitting that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Was the result of generic mutations over the years. That is an entirely different discussion than your hypothesis that humans are predisposed to drink. In fact the are pretty brazenly different things. Capacity v need. I am not sure of your point but this seems like a semi messy introduction to an entire branch of evolutionary science that you are trying to shoehorn into a neurological argument.

What I said was:

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I have come to realize that most social gatherings - esp with couples - involve the presence of alcohol. What does it say about humans that we aren’t really very capable of interacting with each other without stimulants?

And I subsequently googled the question ... and learned there is indeed an evolutionary genetic basis that drives our desire to drink. One that started as a survival method (enabling our predecessors to consume rotting fruit and quickly process the ethanol that was toxic to other species) - and the articles say the buzz from consuming ethanol (the toxic byproduct) itself became useful in reducing anxieties and encouraging social interaction.

It is both a stimulant and a depressant according to the US Government medical site (see link).

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Alcohol produces both stimulant and sedating effects in humans. These two seemingly opposite effects are central to the understanding of much of the literature on alcohol use and misuse... Increased heart rate and aggression seem strongly associated with stimulation ... There is good agreement that alcohol's ability to induce striatal dopamine release is the mechanism underlying alcohol's stimulatory effects;

There are many articles under the Google search that discuss alcohol's effects as a stimulant (at the same type it has depressant affects, especially as the night wears on, making us sleepy)
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