It's that time of year, so it's time for these type of threads.
Bottom line: at the end of the 1983 season, Bill Parcells decides he doesn't like Brunner or Simms, so he causes a rift in space, time, and causality, and gets 2011 Eli Manning.
How many Superbowls do the Giants win?
Seems realistic.
I understand the question, and peak Eli was better than peak Simms (I loved Simms at QB.), but maybe one more, at most. If you really wanted to think about who would have taken those 80s teams to another level, try giving them OBJ. Simms to Eli isn't a big upgrade. OBJ would be a big upgrade at any WR position.
For that matter peak Victor Cruz and peak Hakeem Nicks would have been great additions to those teams.
Simms had superior arm and better leadership skills. I disagree with the point of view that Eli is unquestionably the better quarterback.
Agreed. Or both..Also, Eli would have given the Bears a much better clutch showing in Soldiers Field in ‘85..We lost 21-0, but were only down 7-0 going into the 4th and only then because of a Shaun Gayle TD return of the Landeta whiffed “punt.”.
This..some of you younger guys don't realize how good Simms was in his prime! Phil continues to be underrated as a QB. Remember, he played in an Offense that was based on run first,ball control. Turn Phil loose and he would have excelled in a pass first offense!
Second some of those years things were out of their control. For instance in the 1987 season they were the favorites and looking to repeat, but the player strike killed that (the Giants had the worst scab team).
So in 1985 they lost to a buzz saw Bears team (not sure Eli could have done anything there).
1986 - win
1987 - strike
1988 - This is the one possibility, although LT was suspended for 4 games
1989 - lost in the NFC Championship game in OT to the Rams (who had the lucky horseshoe that year)
1990 - won the Super Bowl
So maybe 1 in 1988
Of course, this is nothing more than speculative opinion, so there’s no right or wrong. It’s simply how I “see it.”
Eli does not have a great regular season record (119-107 all time).
Eli's career playoff record is 8-4 with two SB wins, but he was also "one and done" in 4 of his 6 playoff years.
It took a super-human performance by Simms for the Giants to win their first SB. Do the Giants even win that SB if the QB has a good, but not great game?
And how well does Eli perform when he has to trade in OBJ, Nicks, Plaxico and Cruz, for Gray, Manuel, Johnson and McConkey?
I guess it's fun to talk about and we'll obviously never have an answer, but it seems like most people who seriously answered this question are suggesting that Eli was a significantly better QB than Simms and Hoss and I just don't think that's the case.
Of course, this is nothing more than speculative opinion, so there’s no right or wrong. It’s simply how I “see it.”
Not taking anything away from Eli (Super Bowl XXLII was an extraordinary comeback), but down 10-9 at half,the first Super Bowl ever for the Giants & Simms goes out & throws 22-25 for 268 yards & 3 TDs-seems pretty clutch to me. I don't think we have to demean Phil's accomplishments to highlight Eli's. Both can stand on their own merits!
Eli was "one and done" in four of his six playoff years. How is that "mostly clutch"?
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one of my all-time favorite Giants. That said, give Eli THAT Defense? In the playoffs where Eli is mostly clutch? Sorry, Simms was no Eli. We win another bowl or 2, imo..
Of course, this is nothing more than speculative opinion, so there’s no right or wrong. It’s simply how I “see it.”
Not taking anything away from Eli (Super Bowl XXLII was an extraordinary comeback), but down 10-9 at half,the first Super Bowl ever for the Giants & Simms goes out & throws 22-25 for 268 yards & 3 TDs-seems pretty clutch to me. I don't think we have to demean Phil's accomplishments to highlight Eli's. Both can stand on their own merits!
Could be the best performance ever
10-18 for 133 yds. TD-0 INT-3 (Panthers 23 Giants-0)
16-27 for 161 yds. TD-2 INT 1 (Eagles 23 Giants 20)
15-29 for 169 yds. TD-0 INT-2 (Eagles 23 Giants 16)
23-44 for 299 yds. TD-1 INT-1 (Packers 38 Giants 13)
I know there are a lot of variables in a given game and these stats don't PROVE that Eli was "not clutch" in the playoffs. But those stats also don't exactly show a superstar QB putting the team on his back and willing them to victory either. (49 points in 4 playoff losses, avg. 12.25 pts. per game.)
10-18 for 133 yds. TD-0 INT-3 (Panthers 23 Giants-0)
16-27 for 161 yds. TD-2 INT 1 (Eagles 23 Giants 20)
15-29 for 169 yds. TD-0 INT-2 (Eagles 23 Giants 16)
23-44 for 299 yds. TD-1 INT-1 (Packers 38 Giants 13)
I know there are a lot of variables in a given game and these stats don't PROVE that Eli was "not clutch" in the playoffs. But those stats also don't exactly show a superstar QB putting the team on his back and willing them to victory either. (49 points in 4 playoff losses, avg. 12.25 pts. per game.)
Our posts crossed. Yes there are variables. All clutch QBs have clunkers. Montana had 3 against us in the playoffs
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Where the Giants lost in the first round:
10-18 for 133 yds. TD-0 INT-3 (Panthers 23 Giants-0)
16-27 for 161 yds. TD-2 INT 1 (Eagles 23 Giants 20)
15-29 for 169 yds. TD-0 INT-2 (Eagles 23 Giants 16)
23-44 for 299 yds. TD-1 INT-1 (Packers 38 Giants 13)
I know there are a lot of variables in a given game and these stats don't PROVE that Eli was "not clutch" in the playoffs. But those stats also don't exactly show a superstar QB putting the team on his back and willing them to victory either. (49 points in 4 playoff losses, avg. 12.25 pts. per game.)
Our posts crossed. Yes there are variables. All clutch QBs have clunkers. Montana had 3 against us in the playoffs
Yes, but Eli put up "clunkers" that resulted in 4 first round exits in 6 years. In other words...2 out of every 3 years that the Giants have made the playoffs in the Eli era.
If Eli has just an average game in the "Simms" SB, the Giants lose.
The thought that Eli was so much better than Simms that Eli would have won two additional SB is just foolish.
Of course there's no way to prove anything, but if you could simply admit you're wrong so that I can attend to some chores, I would appreciate it.
;>)
exactly
I don’t know who wins more on the others respective teams but to knock Eli’s bad games to prop Simms up seems odd.
The Parcells era Giants played in the golden age of the NFC. Getting 2 rings in that stretch was absolute attrition.
The Giants had plenty fine QB play in the era and pound for pound maybe the best defense in a stretch of football ever.
There were 3 dynasties playing out in the NFC at the same time (Skins, 9ers, Giants), and then followed up by the Cowboys. The AFC didn't win a Super Bowl for 13 years.
Maybe, maybe 85 great QB gets them closer. Which of course requires beating the best of defense of all time.
Further, many here on BBI underestimate how good the NFC was back in the 80s. There were some real powerhouse teams each year that made even getting into the playoffs a challenge for a very strong team like the Giants.
my view...
Further, many here on BBI underestimate how good the NFC was back in the 80s. There were some real powerhouse teams each year that made even getting into the playoffs a challenge for a very strong team like the Giants.
my view...
Been following this since ‘56. The NFC division in the ‘80s was clearly the best I ever saw
Second some of those years things were out of their control. For instance in the 1987 season they were the favorites and looking to repeat, but the player strike killed that (the Giants had the worst scab team).
So in 1985 they lost to a buzz saw Bears team (not sure Eli could have done anything there).
1986 - win
1987 - strike
1988 - This is the one possibility, although LT was suspended for 4 games
1989 - lost in the NFC Championship game in OT to the Rams (who had the lucky horseshoe that year)
1990 - won the Super Bowl
So maybe 1 in 1988
In 1988 Giants didnt even qualify for the playoffs. And Simms had a pretty good year so not sure he was the crutch.
In 1989 Giants lost to the Rams in the divisional playoff game, not the NFC Championship. The Rams got the asses whipped by the Niners in the NFCC.
just sayin...
Not a knock on Eli. But it’s underestimating Simms who was a pro bowl caliber q.v. then if anything.
The Giants defense was really good as well, and the reason the game was close late. But the Giants weren't scoring in that game if Tom Brady was the QB.
The counter argument of a great run game and a great defense... Eli wouldn’t be asked to do as much either.
Worst was when we missed the chip-shot FG as well (probably wind blown), the Bears had all the momentum going into halftime.
And that was all she wrote...
So if we are nitpicking Eli’s bad playoff games, nitpicking Simms would make Simms look a lot worse.
I was referring to the other jimmy pointing out Eli’s struggles in his non SB years as a reason why he couldn’t have success in the 80s. All I did was point out that Simms wasn’t lights out either based on his non SB year either.
We didn’t score a TD against 91’ SF. It’s not outrageous to think eli couldn’t lead us to 1 TD, right?
And I agree with that view.
Dumb post.
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But Giants fans overrate him somewhat. Outside of a few stretches, he is merely a good QB who generally can't elevate the team as much as other more elite QBs. Not sure he gets them past SF in 91 and Simms performance in 87 against Denver was amazing.
We didn’t score a TD against 91’ SF. It’s not outrageous to think eli couldn’t lead us to 1 TD, right?
Hoss played that game...not Simms. And I think Hoss played very nicely...
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But Giants fans overrate him somewhat. Outside of a few stretches, he is merely a good QB who generally can't elevate the team as much as other more elite QBs. Not sure he gets them past SF in 91 and Simms performance in 87 against Denver was amazing.
We didn’t score a TD against 91’ SF. It’s not outrageous to think eli couldn’t lead us to 1 TD, right?
It's also not outrageous that Manning would have turned the ball over against a really crafty secondary. Playing that game conservatively and absolutely trusting the 9ers would get beat down over 60 mins was the right call. The offensive game plan was OJ burning clock and Hoss not turning it over.
I just don’t like diminishing the accomplishments of either Simms or Eli. Simms 86’ was just as magical as Eli’s 07’ and 11’. And sims probably would have won in 91’ as well.
They are both are very good QBs.