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ESPN: NYG has 2nd best offensive arsenal in the NFL

FranknWeezer : 7/11/2018 10:42 am
Quote:
2. New York Giants
Nobody can say that Eli Manning lacks an arsenal. The Giants ranked low on this list last year out of pessimism against their running backs, fears about Brandon Marshall after a rough year with the Jets and the slim likelihood of rookie tight end Evan Engram having an immediate impact. The first two turned out to be legitimate, but Engram -- in part because he was the last man standing after injuries -- had a wildly productive debut season. The first-round pick finished with 722 receiving yards, which ranks fourth among rookie tight ends since the merger and is the most since Jeremy Shockey had 894 yards for the Giants in 2002. He was a top-five tight end by fantasy points in 2017, and he should be in the running again this season.

The expectations for Saquon Barkley, meanwhile, are Offensive Rookie of the Year. Outside of concerns about his offensive line, it shouldn't take much convincing to believe that Barkley will be a leading back from the outset, both as a runner and a receiver. Odell Beckham Jr. also should be healed from his fractured ankle and playing for a new contract, which could give the Giants a reasonable shot at having a top-five contributor at running back, wide receiver and tight end. The wideout depth chart is thin, and there's going to be an adjustment period for Sterling Shepard as the Giants get away from using 11 personnel on every snap and move the third-year wideout out of the slot, but the Giants are going to have moments this season in which they make defenders look absolutely stupid.

Barnwell ESPN article - ( New Window )
I'd rather  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/11/2018 10:44 am : link
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.

RE: I'd rather  
adamg : 7/11/2018 10:46 am : link
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.
I'll take Beckham Barkley and Engram... thanks.
Paul, the OL simply needs to be average or better; doesnít  
Big Blue '56 : 7/11/2018 10:47 am : link
need to be elite. On paper it looks like it could be better than average..

As to arsenal, I agree. Been saying that all along. On paper, WHO is going to stop us with everyone healthy and Shurmur calling the plays?
RE: I'd rather  
UConn4523 : 7/11/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.


Maybe in 1985, not in 2018, not a chance.
RE: I'd rather  
NYSports1 : 7/11/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.


Here is someone looking for internal excuses for the season...
ESPN article tomorrow  
PatersonPlank : 7/11/2018 10:50 am : link
Giants have the #31 offensive line
Come the end of this season we will have the verdict on Eli  
NYSports1 : 7/11/2018 10:50 am : link
The media and league knows he has the weapons and now excuses stop
RE: ESPN article tomorrow  
NYSports1 : 7/11/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 14010679 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Giants have the #31 offensive line


Sims use to get sacked double the amount that Eli was on a yearly basis and had no weapons....
RE: RE: I'd rather  
QB Snacks : 7/11/2018 10:53 am : link
In comment 14010676 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Maybe in 1985, not in 2018, not a chance.


Some of you havent learned your lesson. A great OL covers up everything. Great Skill players dont. Obviously you want a balance between the two but if it's what we had on the OL last year with our current skill guys or a great OL vs no skills guy I take the great OL.
RE: Come the end of this season we will have the verdict on Eli  
njm : 7/11/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 14010680 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
The media and league knows he has the weapons and now excuses stop


Maybe.

"Outside of concerns about the offensive line"

Things are looking better, but if Eli still has less than 2 seconds to release the ball no verdict is rendered.
Let's see how the Hand of God performs in a game  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2018 10:56 am : link
before anointing him, shall we?
Why even make the comment that you'd rather  
robbieballs2003 : 7/11/2018 10:58 am : link
have the best OL and shitty weapons than the other way around?

I don't think people realize that we have addressed the OL for years. We spent premium picks on the OL. We spent in FA. It isn't like we neglected the OL for weapons. We went with Diehl, Suebert, O'Hara, Snee, and McKenzie until they were all run into the ground. We spent money on guys like Baas and Schwartz who demanded a lot of money and didn't work out. We drafted Pugh and Flowers in the first. We drafted Richburg in the second. We tried. We just sucked at it. We couldn't evaluated/develop OL. It sucked.

We have had much better success drafting and developing skill players though. It is the main reason Reese was fired. Every GM has misses but when you miss as much as he did in one particular area especially the OL through all methods then there is 100% chance you will lose your job.

Gettleman came in and has a whole different way of evaluating players. We have a new staff who will hopefully develop these players properly. Shurmur is a former OL so not only do I hope that these players develop but I am also confident he will put them in positions to succeed. On paper our OL looks much better.

Now, why does it have to be the converse? Why can it not be somewhere in the middle. Why can we not have awesome weapons and a solid OL?
at the risk of being a jinx  
mfsd : 7/11/2018 11:00 am : link
it's easy to look good on paper in mid July...let's see how many of our offensive weapons are still on the field by week 6
RE: RE: I'd rather  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/11/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 14010678 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Here is someone looking for internal excuses for the season...


You would be wiser to improve your own posting quality before going after the posts of others.

Pointing out the fact that the Giants offensive line has been abysmal for nearly a decade and has led to a dearth of offensive output over that time isn't looking for an "internal excuse." Instead, it's acknowledging that when an offensive line can't give a non-running QB any time to throw, and cannot create space for any type of run game, it doesn't matter so much how good the weapons are. Time and time again people talk about flashy offensive weapons to make the offense go, despite ignoring that if there isn't time for them to get open, it doesn't matter; if there isn't a strong running game to force teams out of the same cover 2 that has smothered the team for years, it doesn't matter; if there aren't big-bodied targets to win jump balls, or box out to grab possessions, it doesn't matter; and if there aren't quality pass-catching RBs who can handle dump offs, it doesn't matter.

We've seen this year after year with this Giants offense barring a few aberrations.

I'm hopeful that the addition of Hernandez, moving Flowers to the right side, and a new scheme and reconfiguration will improve the offensive line from years past. But they have to prove it.
For those harping on the OL  
Danny Kanell : 7/11/2018 11:04 am : link
Of course the offensive line is paramount to success. But we are replacing 3 positions with the top LT target in Free Agency, Will Hernandez who by all accounts looks to be a mauling guard and taken with a premier pick and signed Omameh to a multi year contract to take over the other guard position. And Flowers moving to Rt is obviously a question mark but he wont be on Eli's blindside and many people have clamored for him to move due to his technique issues.

What more would you have liked Gettleman to do?
robbieballs  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/11/2018 11:06 am : link
because for several years now, people have hyped up the Giants skill weapons only to be shocked that it doesn't produce results when defenses stay in the same scheme because the team couldn't run the ball or stop four-man rushes from getting to the QB. I'm hopeful the offensive line will be improved, and if it is of even average quality, we should see a massive improvement in offensive output. But until the offensive line can prove that it can establish a running game and hold a pocket, the offense will be all hat and no cattle once again.
Typical in depth ESPN analysis  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 7/11/2018 11:06 am : link
Using fantasy points as a stat.
offense was fine until it lost the weapon  
hitdog42 : 7/11/2018 11:13 am : link
that makes it an elite arsenal (OBJ)
also when you run the same plays from the same formations at the same times... the OL is always going to look bad when you dont have pro bowl talent.
a new offensive scheme that is not predictable will make most of these guys look like NFL players finally
2015 Dallas Cowboys  
WillieYoung : 7/11/2018 11:17 am : link
Best offensive line in Football, by far, before they lost Free and Leary. 22nd ranked YPG offense, 31st ranked in scoring.
RE: robbieballs  
robbieballs2003 : 7/11/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 14010706 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
because for several years now, people have hyped up the Giants skill weapons only to be shocked that it doesn't produce results when defenses stay in the same scheme because the team couldn't run the ball or stop four-man rushes from getting to the QB. I'm hopeful the offensive line will be improved, and if it is of even average quality, we should see a massive improvement in offensive output. But until the offensive line can prove that it can establish a running game and hold a pocket, the offense will be all hat and no cattle once again.


I get that and agree. The OL is vital to any successful offense. That doesn't mean that we don't have very talented weapons on the team. Yes, our WR depth is a little worrisome. We have question marks at RB even with Barkley at this point. Is Gallman a legit backup? Does Stewart have anything left? We can go on forever talking about what we'd rather have. But this article was simply about the weapojs we have now compared to the rest of the league. That is all. It isn't a projection of how many wins we will have this year or how our other units stack up to the rest of the league or how Philly is still in our division or how the NFC overall from top to bottom might be the most talented it has ever been. It is just how our weapons compare to the rest of the league.
Don't the Pats  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 7/11/2018 11:21 am : link
Have a mediocre-crap o-line almost every year nowadays? Plus throw in an even more immobile and unable tic qb.
robbie  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/11/2018 11:23 am : link
fair. I think the quality of the arsenal also depends on Latimer emerging, as he's the only receiver over 6'0 (excluding Engram) and if there isn't much time to throw, it is very helpful for teams to have big-target receivers who are always potentially open in single coverage by virtue of their size.
RE: RE: I'd rather  
Go Terps : 7/11/2018 11:34 am : link
In comment 14010676 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Maybe in 1985, not in 2018, not a chance.


Aaron Rodgers disagrees. Bill Simmons put the question to him directly, and he said he'd take the elite offensive line every time.
Here is the thing  
gmen9892 : 7/11/2018 11:39 am : link
Something that keeps getting overlooked is that Eli is going to get protection from not only his OL, but from keeping 2 TE's in to block. At worst, 1 TE will be kept in to block on many occasions. It is what made the Ellison signing so baffling last year if they weren't going to use him to block more often.

McAdoo's system was not only horrible, but never gave the OL any help to give Eli time. With no time, no routes were able to develop. It was an unmitigated disaster from top to bottom. Now with what could be a better OL, a threat of a running game, and more TEs kept in to help the OL, the playmakers might actually have a shot to, you know, make plays.
Rodgers is one of the most elusive QB's in the NFL.  
Keith : 7/11/2018 11:40 am : link
He makes the OL elite. I've watched GB and there are plenty of guys that get through the line real quick and Rodgers moves around to create time and space. Rodgers can make this OL look elite.
The OL can't be much worse than it was  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/11/2018 11:40 am : link
last year. I'll take serviceable. If it's good, this offense has the potential to be scary good.
RE: offense was fine until it lost the weapon  
QB Snacks : 7/11/2018 11:41 am : link
In comment 14010721 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
that makes it an elite arsenal (OBJ)
also when you run the same plays from the same formations at the same times... the OL is always going to look bad when you dont have pro bowl talent.
a new offensive scheme that is not predictable will make most of these guys look like NFL players finally


Totally disagree. The offense was not fine. They were 1 dimensional. They were blanketed for three quarters in Philadelphia. They were awful against the Lions and I'm sorry but 25 points vs the Bucs isnt getting anyone excited. And it was absolutely brutal the entire year before with him healthy. Not sure what you're talking about.
RE: Rodgers is one of the most elusive QB's in the NFL.  
Go Terps : 7/11/2018 11:43 am : link
In comment 14010761 Keith said:
Quote:
He makes the OL elite. I've watched GB and there are plenty of guys that get through the line real quick and Rodgers moves around to create time and space. Rodgers can make this OL look elite.


But that's the point. He needs an elite OL less than perhaps any QB in the league, and he still would take the elite OL over the elite WRs/RBs.

If that applies for him, what do you think is more likely to apply for Eli or just about any other QB?
You put Eli on GB right now,  
Keith : 7/11/2018 11:47 am : link
are you looking at that unit as elite??

That being said, of course Rodgers is going to say that about the guys who protect him. Any QB should and will say that, no? Also, Rodgers is so good that he continually makes schlubs at WR look like superstars. He doesn't need OBJ, he can make Nelson, Cobb, Adams and whoever else they play look great.
Keith  
Go Terps : 7/11/2018 11:48 am : link
I don't think you're understanding the question that was put to Rodgers. He was asked, "Would you rather have the elite offensive line or the elite skill players?"

He said offensive line, definitively.
Yeah, I too would rather the elite OL  
Keith : 7/11/2018 11:57 am : link
if that was the question asked. What good are elite weapons without time for the QB.

RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
UConn4523 : 7/11/2018 11:58 am : link
In comment 14010754 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14010676 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Maybe in 1985, not in 2018, not a chance.



Aaron Rodgers disagrees. Bill Simmons put the question to him directly, and he said he'd take the elite offensive line every time.


If those are my options Best OL Worst Weapons vs Best Weapons Worst OLIne, then sure. But as other have mentioned and how I was originally responding anyway, my goal in 2018 isnít to spend everything I can to make the best possible OL. Iíd rather spend on weapons and find a way to have an average OL.

And Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the nfl in my opinion, so he can be great with sub par skill players. Of course he wants a great oline, he hates getting hit. That quote means little to me, I expect every QB to think that way.
RE: I'd rather  
giants#1 : 7/11/2018 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.


Titans and Cowboys have little to nothing to show for their elite OLs.
I think  
ryanmkeane : 7/11/2018 12:08 pm : link
Barnwell is a Giants fan based on his work. That being said it's tough to disagree. If our weapons are all healthy, it's going to be nearly impossible to keep every one in check.
RE: RE: I'd rather  
robbieballs2003 : 7/11/2018 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14010788 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Titans and Cowboys have little to nothing to show for their elite OLs.


You can add Oakland to that list too.
There are posters here  
joeinpa : 7/11/2018 12:12 pm : link
That will never hold Eli accountable for a poor offensive performance.

I get it, he s a two time champion, and he s been a great Giant.

I even get the rationale of last year, coaching, injuries, offensive line, etc. I get it even though there are quarterbacks with more mobility who overcome poor O line play better than Eli, but that s not his M. O.

But to hedge your bets this year, as some are doing on this thread, is the height of non-objectivity.

Giants are all in on making another run with Eli, as many here wanted, no excuses.
I think the most interesting recent example is the 2016 Cowboys  
Go Terps : 7/11/2018 12:13 pm : link
Best OL in the league, but had the misfortune of losing their QB to injury before the season. Skill players were Elliott/Bryant/Beasley/Witten. Outside of Elliott there is zero speed there.

So a backfield with two rookies and no explosiveness at WR/TE, and that Dallas team was 5th in the NFL in scoring, 5th in the NFL in offensive yardage, and a 13-3 record. They also put up 31 points and 400+ yards in their playoff loss to Green Bay - they were an Aaron Rodgers/Mason Crosby miracle from hosting the Falcons for the right to go to the Super Bowl.

If we had to play this season with Lauletta and Barkley in the backfield (4th and 1st rounders like Prescott and Elliott were in 2016), would we achieve the same level of success with a lesser offensive line but better WR/TE? Maybe, but I'd doubt it.

Hopefully our line is good this year. At least Gettleman immediately recognized the desperate need for improvement there.
2016 Cowboys  
RollBlue : 7/11/2018 12:39 pm : link
had an elite weapon in Elliot, and a rookie QB who did not turn the ball over.

How about the 2015 Cowboys??? Great O-Line, no Zeke, went 4-12.

How about last year's Cowboys? What was their record again when Zeke was suspended??

Elite playmakers trump O-Line.
RE: I'd rather  
Mr. Bungle : 7/11/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.

That sounds kind of like the 2016 Tennessee Titans.

If 9-7 and no playoffs is your thing...
Problem has been coaching and scheme  
Rflairr : 7/11/2018 1:14 pm : link
On offense. Banks and Papa can tell you whatís being run before they even run it
the plural of anecdote  
PaulBlakeTSU : 7/11/2018 1:14 pm : link
is not data. You can also point many of the Patriots teams with a great offensive line and lacking skill players as a counterfactual. Or, the Panthers for 2 of the last 3 seasons, or the 49ers team that we faced in the Super Bowl.

Pointing out specific examples of strong O-lines and bad skill players (who still managed better records) while ignoring several other variables as to what occurred with those teams add nothing to the discussion. I'll also take Eli over Derek Carr, Marcus Mariota, and Dak Prescott.
RE: 2016 Cowboys  
Greg from LI : 7/11/2018 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14010820 RollBlue said:
Quote:
How about last year's Cowboys? What was their record again when Zeke was suspended??


6-4 with him, 3-3 without him. BFD.
it's a horrible article  
GiantsFan84 : 7/11/2018 2:35 pm : link
the steelers should be #1 - best wr and best RB. end of story

the bears should be nowhere near #9. they should be mid to lower part of the league.

just a lot of bad in the article.

that being said Giants are not out of place at #2.
RE: RE: RE: I'd rather  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 7/11/2018 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14010792 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14010788 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14010666 PaulBlakeTSU said:


Quote:


have the best offensive line and an atrocious arsenal than the other way around.




Titans and Cowboys have little to nothing to show for their elite OLs.



You can add Oakland to that list too.

Didn't Cleveland have 2 good guards and Joe Thomas?
DG is still looking  
TMS : 7/11/2018 4:56 pm : link
and we have the #2 pick on cuts. He has found gems there before. Keep the faith and hope for the best. See a slow start but then steady improvement after 5/6 games.
Did this offense play anyone yet?  
EdS56 : 7/11/2018 5:48 pm : link
I can say a lot of things on paper look good, but then don't turn out. Kinda like my job, coding. Sure, looks good, and unit tests work, but then you integrate it and it doesn't work.

So, looking forward to seeing it in preseason, but not excited yet.
RE: Come the end of this season we will have the verdict on Eli  
FStubbs : 7/11/2018 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14010680 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
The media and league knows he has the weapons and now excuses stop


I don't agree with this article.

Very weak offensive line, though it may be better than the NFL's worst this year for a change.

We finally have a RB. (1) running back. Who has yet to play a down in an actual NFL game.
We have Odell Beckham coming off of injury, Sterling Shepard who is JAG, and a lot of nothing at WR.
We have a couple of decent young tight ends who have some promise.

Giants have potential and question marks on offense. But this is most definitely not some referendum on Eli as a player. It may be a referendum on whether this team has a future with Eli, but he could play great and this offense still not go anywhere.
I sure hope that Shurmur works his magic with our depth WRs.  
yatqb : 7/11/2018 10:32 pm : link
Make Roger Lewis, Latimer and whomever else functional, so that they can provide adequate depth at the WR position. We can't count upon OBJ and Shep to do it all for us.
I believe you can have success  
mrvax : 7/12/2018 12:00 am : link
with an average Oline and good weapons IF you have a good QB.

A sucky Oline means disaster.
A great Oline with good weapons (Dallas) and an 'average' QB won't win much.
RE: offense was fine until it lost the weapon  
NikkiMac : 7/12/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 14010721 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
that makes it an elite arsenal (OBJ)
also when you run the same plays from the same formations at the same times... the OL is always going to look bad when you dont have pro bowl talent.
a new offensive scheme that is not predictable will make most of these guys look like NFL players finally



Thatís right hitdog Bennie couldnít disguise the offense either thatís why they got smothered in cover two
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