NFT: Knicks Chat 7/12: Summer League and the new Front Office

perimeter. As Fran Frischilla said, not one play was drawn up for him and he still put up that stat line.

"RE: Gimme
Anakim : 5/10/2018 8:29 pm
In comment 13960482 DanMetroMan said:
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Musa round 2 (if he somehow falls).



I think the sleeper in this draft is Mitchell Robinson. He is insanely athletic for a 5."

To me it looks like Frank predetermines whether to shoot or pass. As a 1, it seems like he'll decide to pass, not react to the defense, and force a turnover. I think as a 2 he seems to shoot if he gets an opportunity and turns it over less because he doesn't decide to force passes.

It'll be interesting to see if Knox forces shots when he plays with a team that actually runs an offense. This summer league team did not look like they had any flow at all. On the other hand, it's nice that the Knicks finally have a guy that checks all the boxes from a potential stand point. Two if you count Robinson.

I know his shot wasn't going, but I actually liked what I saw out of Kornet today. He seemed to be the only guy out there setting good screens and moving the ball on offense. Hopefully his injury isn't serious.

I agree Hicks looks like he doesn't belong. It's almost like he's afraid to reach out and catch a pass in traffic.

I wish Hicks could be the guy they cut to get the roster where it needs to be, but I assume they need to cut someone with a normal contract. Assuming they don't trade anybody, I wonder who will get cut? Troy Williams, Ron Baker?

Starting five: Kanter, Hezonja, Knox, THJr, Frank
Next five: Robinson, Lance, Lee, Mudiay, Burke
Last five: Kornet, [PF not on roster yet], Williams, Dotson, Trier

In comment 14012217 Del Shofner said:

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Starting five: Kanter, Hezonja, Knox, THJr, Frank Next five: Robinson, Lance, Lee, Mudiay, Burke Last five: Kornet, [PF not on roster yet], Williams, Dotson, Trier

That's a gloriously bad team - maybe we'll get that top three pick after all.

In comment 14012234 bceagle05 said:

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In comment 14012217 Del Shofner said: Quote: Starting five: Kanter, Hezonja, Knox, THJr, Frank Next five: Robinson, Lance, Lee, Mudiay, Burke Last five: Kornet, [PF not on roster yet], Williams, Dotson, Trier That's a gloriously bad team - maybe we'll get that top three pick after all.

lol - you can only play the cards you're dealt. That's my best guess how it will go given the players they are currently invested in.

Not much you can do about the best player being injured either.

In comment 14012217 Del Shofner said:

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Starting five: Kanter, Hezonja, Knox, THJr, Frank Next five: Robinson, Lance, Lee, Mudiay, Burke Last five: Kornet, [PF not on roster yet], Williams, Dotson, Trier

It seems like you overlooked the fact that KP, Noah, and Baker are still taking up roster spots. This seemingly assumes that the Knicks will trade Noah and Baker for a PF not on the roster yet. I would love it if they could pull that off. :-)

Also, that starting 5 just makes me cringe if that is in fact what happens. 4 chuckers who don't pass or play defense and Frank... It's going to be a long year.

In comment 14012362 JustaDiscussion said:

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In comment 14012217 Del Shofner said: Quote: Starting five: Kanter, Hezonja, Knox, THJr, Frank Next five: Robinson, Lance, Lee, Mudiay, Burke Last five: Kornet, [PF not on roster yet], Williams, Dotson, Trier It seems like you overlooked the fact that KP, Noah, and Baker are still taking up roster spots. This seemingly assumes that the Knicks will trade Noah and Baker for a PF not on the roster yet. I would love it if they could pull that off. :-) Also, that starting 5 just makes me cringe if that is in fact what happens. 4 chuckers who don't pass or play defense and Frank... It's going to be a long year.

Yes, I'm assuming that KP is on some kind of long term DL, Baker is cut and Noah disappears somehow as I think he will. More seriously - that the last couple of players are just scrubs anyway who can be stashed in Westchester, opening a spot or two on the big team.. I really don't think the last 5 players on this team's roster matter - they will all suck and be gone soon. Let's try to get 10 players on the roster who might actually have a future here.

After carrying the team in three games, and fighting hard to show he cared about defense, this 18-year-old kid who is still growing and not particularly heavily muscled, flat-out ran out of steam. Also, people who worry about his 3-point shooting are flat-out wrong. In most of the games, his 3-pointers were rimming out. He is still learning the pro distance, and tonight hs legs were much slower--but he still played 35 minutes. This should be our worst problem.

Other notes:
--Dotson has been full-on awful--a sharp drop-down from where he was at the end of last season. Having Dotson, Kornet and Robinson all starting against an athletic Celtics team was a mismatch.

--Another problem for Knox, and for the team, was the utter lack of experienced pgs on the roster after Frank was unavailable. Trier was better than might have been feared, but he has no significant experience running a team--and no back-up. We will see how he looks in g-league, but Knox could have used a quality pg to get him easier shots. At least Trier stopped chucking when he needed to run the team the last 2 games. 5 for 8 tonight.

--Robinson kept the Knicks competitive all by himself--17 points, 12 rebounds, six blocks--and also without a true pg for the kind of athlete who would thrive with a passer.

Also trade Whitehead to Denver for Faried, Arthur, protected 2019 first rounder and future second rounder.

playing at all like this for a full season in college no way he goes below pick 20.

He did get pushed around by Bennett on Utah and that certainly could be the case with a lot of 4's and 5's in the NBA but a year in a weight training program and look out.

He and Porzingis blocking shots and crashing the boards together could be a sight to see. And it would be very hard to play any clunky forward or center against a lineup of Knox/Robinson/KP would be extremely tough to move with them.

Only summer league, I know, can't get my hopes up to high. But regardless of how excited we should be, hard to argue against having more legitimate reasons to be excited than in many years.

In comment 14012393 bceagle05 said:

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Also trade Whitehead to Denver for Faried, Arthur, protected 2019 first rounder and future second rounder.

so hawks trading schroeder?

dropped a bunch of salary for a very light cost. Maybe bode well for us in the future?

In comment 14012482 DanMetroMan said:

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dropped a bunch of salary for a very light cost. Maybe bode well for us in the future?

That was my first thought as well. By dumping Faried and Arthur for Whitehead, Denver was able to shed about $20 million in expiring salaries at the cost of a lottery protected first and a future second. You would think that we should be able to find something similar for Noah if need be.

Not sure if he played a big role in this year's draft, but all the best to him. One of the few smart guys we've had in recent years.

Bulls are going to make the Melo trade.

If not Knicks should offer baker and Thomas to bulls with a second round pick and $4.5 mil cash to cover baker cost. THis in essence is 2 expirings with Thomas only having 1 mil guaranteed next year. Then offer Lee for Melo straight maybe ask for a future 2nd rounder, this way knicks have room to take on Melo without having to send back anything besides lee to OKC. Obviously buyout Melo. This frees up 3 roster spots forknicks to focus on younger guys and costs them only a second and cash to get rid of Lee. Stretch Noah or try to use his expiring deal next year and you are close to 2 maxes

Article was about both rookies, but mainly Knox.

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All told, neither Knox nor Robinson looked to be the next NBA superstar during their time at the Vegas Summer League. But both have skill sets that should translate to the league as long as they continue to put in the work, and each could develop into contributing pieces at the next level.

Could develop? No discussion whatsoever of the fact that he's only 18, that still growing, that he will get considerably stronger and fill out, that he clearly looked slower in the last game, suggesting fatigue after carry the team, that he has the stroke for a solid 3-point shot, that with conditioning and coaching he should become a very solid defender, given his quickness and long arms, or that he played the last 2 games without a real point guard.

Will he be a superstar? Too early to tell. But "could develop into a contributing piece?" That's just trolling, and understate the case relative to practically every other observer.

Meanwhile, it will be interesting to see how much time Robinson puts in with Westchester, especially early in the season. Above everything else, he needs experience and pt. The nearness of Westchester creates great opportunities for him to play up there and still practice with the main team. And then later on, they need to bring in a big man specialist like Hakeem to work on his technique. And in the summer, he will need to work on strengthening.
Link - ( New Window )

I think he'll get more playing time than he probably should this season because we're so light in the frontcourt, but I can't wait to see what he's doing after a full year of NBA strength training. He competes hard for rebounds and obviously blocks a ton of shots - just needs to bulk up a bit to battle some of these grown men in the post.

In comment 14012482 DanMetroMan said:

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dropped a bunch of salary for a very light cost. Maybe bode well for us in the future?

Is it really a very light cost?

The pick is top 12 protected. Given how tough the West is, I think it's very unlikely the pick falls into the 20-30 range. Real chance it's in the 13-17 range which is a nice asset for a salary dump IMO.

In comment 14012671 bceagle05 said:

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I think he'll get more playing time than he probably should this season because we're so light in the frontcourt, but I can't wait to see what he's doing after a full year of NBA strength training. He competes hard for rebounds and obviously blocks a ton of shots - just needs to bulk up a bit to battle some of these grown men in the post.

you can tell just by looking at him he is going to able to lut on weight on that frame and still be suoer athletic...

reminds me a lot of deandre when he came out, wide shoulders but skinny

to find a center in the second round, rather than paying the obscene salaries they routinely pay to veteran big men. To get one who's probably a lottery talent if he played college ball is just icing on the cake.

Such a good athlete and seems to like to work too. Really good hands for a big man, too.

who is quick and agile enough to get out and defend three-point shots, and then get back in the paint, is a very rare individual. The 1% of athletes in the NBA comment may be pretty close to right. The challenge for me will be in not getting utsy while he actually learns how to play in the NBA.

In the G-League, he could dominate very quickly. G-League players his size are typically un-athletic, and he will rise over them.

are gonna be big stars (Cleanthony Early, Willy Hernangomez) because I'm so envious of teams that find guys like Draymond or DeAndre in that range, but I can truly see it with Robinson. Not saying he'll be an All-Star, but I think he can be a legit starter in the league and a perfect complement to KP.

Hopefully the next phase of the rebuild is to find some higher percentage shooters - Knox and KP will score but may not be the greatest of marksmen, and Timmy and Frank shoot poorly from three.

In comment 14012674 Metnut said:

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In comment 14012482 DanMetroMan said: Quote: dropped a bunch of salary for a very light cost. Maybe bode well for us in the future? Is it really a very light cost? The pick is top 12 protected. Given how tough the West is, I think it's very unlikely the pick falls into the 20-30 range. Real chance it's in the 13-17 range which is a nice asset for a salary dump IMO.

Across the board everyone seems to think given the costs other teams paid the Nuggets did well.

might be Marcus Camby and ceiling Anthony Davis. I'm not sure i'm drinking that much kool aid. But instead of looking at Camby as the floor looking at Camby as a potentially realistic outcome for him I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think it is too hard to look at where he is now and project him as an above average NBA rebounder and blocker. Camby is listed at 220 on NBA reference and 223 at the combine so right in MR's neighborhood.

Thought Camby might have been a little heavier but after seeing those numbers it might just be a question of MR working on his footwork and positioning more.

looks like one of the more raw prospects I've seen in a while and yet he did this well. I think the player we see year 2 or 3 will be a big time player if he can learn to limit his fouls, know when to leave his man etc.

think Trier could be a real find. If he can be coached up he 100% looks like an NBA scorer with decent size

opinions are all over the map. I gotta say, was not particularly impressed when I saw him in Vegas. He's a real black hole.

Knicks were prepared to take him at 36 (and he claims 2 other teams were prepared to take him round 2) he took 49 shots over 4 games (31 minutes per game), averaged more assists and took 28 less shots in the same minutes as Knox. He's got his flaws but the Lou Williams comp looks apt.

I really did not like him in the first two but the plus side is it looks like he responds to coaching. For me it still looks a little bit like he decides when he first gets the ball if he is going to shoot or pass but at least he decided to pass more later on.

If he continues to take to the coaching no reason he couldn't be a good 6th man in the league.

In comment 14012702 Jon in NYC said:

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opinions are all over the map. I gotta say, was not particularly impressed when I saw him in Vegas. He's a real black hole.

his uoside is sixth man scorer

In comment 14012703 DanMetroMan said:

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Knicks were prepared to take him at 36 (and he claims 2 other teams were prepared to take him round 2) he took 49 shots over 4 games (31 minutes per game), averaged more assists and took 28 less shots in the same minutes as Knox. He's got his flaws but the Lou Williams comp looks apt.

He also had the ball far more often than Knox. Comparing the two isn't totally fair.

Butler just turned down the Wolves max extension offer.

Knicks should be aggressively pursuing a trade here. Noah, Lee, Frank, protected first for Butler, Dieng.

Allows them the ability to get a another max next offseason, and possibly wiggle room for a third.

In comment 14012726 Jon in NYC said:

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Butler just turned down the Wolves max extension offer. Knicks should be aggressively pursuing a trade here. Noah, Lee, Frank, protected first for Butler, Dieng. Allows them the ability to get a another max next offseason, and possibly wiggle room for a third.

No thanks.

A perennial malcontent with serious injury history. Not again.

In comment 14012732 dk in TX said:

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In comment 14012726 Jon in NYC said: Quote: Butler just turned down the Wolves max extension offer. Knicks should be aggressively pursuing a trade here. Noah, Lee, Frank, protected first for Butler, Dieng. Allows them the ability to get a another max next offseason, and possibly wiggle room for a third. No thanks. A perennial malcontent with serious injury history. Not again.

Yes, he gets dinged up. Yes, he's Marquette scum. But he's never had a terrible injury, he's a legitimate two way player, and he would be ideal as a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team.

More importantly, being able to add he and KP would be a heck of a recruiting tool next summer when Kryie, KD and Kawhi are all free agents.

In comment 14012726 Jon in NYC said:

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Butler just turned down the Wolves max extension offer. Knicks should be aggressively pursuing a trade here. Noah, Lee, Frank, protected first for Butler, Dieng. Allows them the ability to get a another max next offseason, and possibly wiggle room for a third.

I don't want any part of Dieng's contract, and I also don't know that would be enough for Minnesota. Something like this might be more enticing:

Hardaway, Ntilikina, protected 1st for Butler. It would actually be pretty similar in structure to the deal that the Bulls got for him with a young swingman in Lavine, a young PG coming off of a slow rookie season in Kris Dunn, and a first round pick which ended up being Markenen.

In comment 14012748 Mike in NJ said:

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In comment 14012726 Jon in NYC said: Quote: Butler just turned down the Wolves max extension offer. Knicks should be aggressively pursuing a trade here. Noah, Lee, Frank, protected first for Butler, Dieng. Allows them the ability to get a another max next offseason, and possibly wiggle room for a third. I don't want any part of Dieng's contract, and I also don't know that would be enough for Minnesota. Something like this might be more enticing: Hardaway, Ntilikina, protected 1st for Butler. It would actually be pretty similar in structure to the deal that the Bulls got for him with a young swingman in Lavine, a young PG coming off of a slow rookie season in Kris Dunn, and a first round pick which ended up being Markenen.

I don't really like this idea. The east is terrible. Butler could actually bring us to a point where we were fringe playoff contenders especially if KP tries to get back and play with him. So we might end up losing the pick plus Frank when we could have that pick be a potential top 5 trade Hardaway for at the very least an unprotected 2020 pick and just sign Butler outright.

In comment 14012724 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 14012703 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Knicks were prepared to take him at 36 (and he claims 2 other teams were prepared to take him round 2) he took 49 shots over 4 games (31 minutes per game), averaged more assists and took 28 less shots in the same minutes as Knox. He's got his flaws but the Lou Williams comp looks apt. He also had the ball far more often than Knox. Comparing the two isn't totally fair.

One is a lottery pick people are gaga over, the other is an undrafted kid who may be a 6th or 7th man for crazy cheap. Point is in 31 minutes per game 49 shots isn't exactly a massive number

the only dumber than a Knick GM is a Knick owner.

No Butler, no to Irving. No to all of them at that level. The Knicks have been doing the same stupid things since Spencer Haywood and Marvin Webster.

The only time the Knicks have had a good team since the championship teams they drafted a big guy early in the draft and found players to go around him. They found Mason, they found Starks, they traded for Oakley.

That's what they need to do now. Grow a real team organically. Find players to put around KP that aren't mid career or late career corporations.

They're finally on the right track. Just stick to the plan. No quick fixes.

No injured big money free agents. No guys who sit out regular season games because they're the franchise player and need to host the all star game in their city. No guys off micro fracture surgery or with metal plates in their knees. No more of that crap.

In comment 14012765 arniefez said:

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the only dumber than a Knick GM is a Knick owner. No Butler, no to Irving. No to all of them at that level. The Knicks have been doing the same stupid things since Spencer Haywood and Marvin Webster. The only time the Knicks have had a good team since the championship teams they drafted a big guy early in the draft and found players to go around him. They found Mason, they found Starks, they traded for Oakley. That's what they need to do now. Grow a real team organically. Find players to put around KP that aren't mid career or late career corporations. They're finally on the right track. Just stick to the plan. No quick fixes. No injured big money free agents. No guys who sit out regular season games because they're the franchise player and need to host the all star game in their city. No guys off micro fracture surgery or with metal plates in their knees. No more of that crap.

Irving is 27. Butler is 28.

it is why he was out, he did not have a new injury

KP, Frank, Knox and (hopefully) Mitchell Robinson, plus another lottery pick next year. They have every right to get aggressive in free agency.

The key is not to overpay the second tier guys if KD, Butler and Irving say no - that's the critical error they've made over and over again. KD doesn't want our money? OK, here's $72 million to Noah, $48 million to Lee, $28 million to Lance, etc. Can't be anymore of that.

Frank and a first is the difference between upgrading to Butler from Hardaway or not, you pull the trigger.

I love Frank, I'm all about keeping our picks, but Butler is a top 20 or so player in the league.

In comment 14012777 Jon in NYC said:

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Frank and a first is the difference between upgrading to Butler from Hardaway or not, you pull the trigger. I love Frank, I'm all about keeping our picks, but Butler is a top 20 or so player in the league.

Yeah but I think your logic is a bit flawed. Either he wants to sign with us after this season and will do so or he doesn't and we end up trading assets for a rental. I don't see how playing a season with very little talent around him here helps us sign him. IMO we have to keep every asset we have to increase the chances that he wants to be here next summer.

In comment 14012782 NoGainDayne said:

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In comment 14012777 Jon in NYC said: Quote: Frank and a first is the difference between upgrading to Butler from Hardaway or not, you pull the trigger. I love Frank, I'm all about keeping our picks, but Butler is a top 20 or so player in the league. Yeah but I think your logic is a bit flawed. Either he wants to sign with us after this season and will do so or he doesn't and we end up trading assets for a rental. I don't see how playing a season with very little talent around him here helps us sign him. IMO we have to keep every asset we have to increase the chances that he wants to be here next summer.

The issue is we can't still sign up with Hardaway still on the books. So the alternative would be not getting Butler.

there is plenty of evidence this year and in years past that if you are willing to give up first round picks you can absolutely get rid of salary so the question becomes why would we give up someone like Frank that could help us attract a player next summer when we could keep him and give up a future pick that is more of a direct trade off when we know someone is coming for a fact?

Especially when not having Butler not only let's us keep Frank but assuredly gets us a higher pick in 2019 which again adds to our asset list in attracting top players.

Because it also isn't just Butler. IMO the one proven method of rebuilding is compiling assets and maintaining flexibility. Getting Butler when he can absolutely still take off and potentially losing our 2019 pick to boot isn't really compiling assets...

Robinson had 14 points on 7-13 shooting, 12 rebounds, 5 blocks. Good, not great, except that he did all of that in 19 minutes! 5 blocks and 12 rebounds in 19 minutes is insane.

Robinson was leading the league in PER. I don't think he fell of the top today. And how different does it feel to know we got 2 guys in the draft instead of one or none?