NFT: Where do you consider ‘the south’ to begin?

"The South" has to start somewhere south of DC. I've always viewed Williamsburg, VA as part of the south so to me the border is around that area which aligns with your view of Richmond being the border.

I don't consider Maryland to be the South either and for me that starts in Virginia.

Maybe because it was where I first heard the term "y'all" but it's more likely because I think of Maryland as Mid-Atlantic not South. Never felt that way about Virginia. It's always been South for me no question about it.

MD is not a "southern" state

to be a southern state. For me, I would say Virginia once you get out of the DC suburbs.

As someone who has lived here for a couple of years now, the South is a like whole different country. And I mean that in a good & bad way. It's just different.

In Florida they say “The farther north you go, the more south you are.”

that Virginia is the start, although Maryland had strong southern leanings during the Civil War. Looking a a map you would think North Carolina, physically.

Virginia, Tennessee and below...

You don’t reach the Virginia Welcome Center on I-95 until you cross to the south of the river.

Really south jersey is the south

Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, all southern ...

The "Real" south though? Where it's all really southern everywhere?

The northern North Carolina border , going down 95 to Jupiter FL, that's all the south for sure

The two surveyors mapped the boundary between two colonies, Pennsylvania and Maryland in 1767 because of a border dispute that was more than a hundred years old at the time.

It was never intended to define the North from the South. The distinction between the Confederacy and the Federal government was political and not geographic. That fact that that line separated the two was coincidental.

/history lesson :)

but I would put it right through White Plains, Md.
Southern parts of Charles county & Calvert county and all of St.Mary's county.

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Only I include Kentucky and West Virginia

once you get south of D.C. Maybe Fredericksburg, VA southwards.

and mid-Atlantic and the "south" are not mutually exclusive as VA is largely both although I dont think anyone considers NY/NJ as mid-Atlantic; just northeast.

the eastern shore of Maryland could absolutely be considered part of the south, same with far western Maryland up in the hills.

In comment 14013449 Anakim said:

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Only I include Kentucky and West Virginia

Nope, WVA split from Virginia because it didn't agree with Virginia's southern beliefs and Kentucky is not Tennessee and even Tennessee didn't not want to secede from the Union.

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south.

If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

In comment 14013469 Britt in VA said:

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south. If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

Yeah I can agree with that. My point about Virginia wasn't so much about where in Virginia but the South to me starts in Virginia as opposed to Maryland or NC.

is the start of the south to me.

Then the 500 miles of South of the Border signs start.

For me personally. As others have said, NOVA is very diverse and tend to be suburbs of DC. A lot of those living in NOVA are N.Y. metro area transplants.

Once you hit the Richmond area, that’s where I start to feel the southern vibe. Of course you always have pockets of the northeast in the south.

It's true

Fredericksburg Va is a decent line tho.. but I'd say 90 miles south of that

Of north Arlington, NJ.

Part of the reason I stayed here (grew up on LI) is that I don't find it to have much of a southern influence. There are so many transplants. It seems finding people who were born and raised here is more the exception than the norm. Richmond feels way more southern to me (e.g., more noticeable accents) than Norfolk/VB. Also, Northern Virginia does not feel southern at all to me.

In comment 14013425 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In Florida they say “The farther north you go, the more south you are.”

Florida is a good example. It all depends where you are. Plenty of places in upstate NY feel more "southern" to me than Miami. Rural versus urban is a more important distinction to me than north versus south. I notice more differences there than geograhpically.

First major battle of the Civil War for a reason, and still marks the line to me.

DC and NoVA aren't the South, but areas to the Northwest and Southwest of DC like Winchester, Warrenton and Quantico are.

I'm New England born and bred, but I've (mostly) lived in VA since the late 80's.

In comment 14013441 KeoweeFan said:

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The two surveyors mapped the boundary between two colonies, Pennsylvania and Maryland in 1767 because of a border dispute that was more than a hundred years old at the time. It was never intended to define the North from the South. The distinction between the Confederacy and the Federal government was political and not geographic. That fact that that line separated the two was coincidental. /history lesson :)

I'd also add two points. First when you look at the orginal 13 colonies this was sort of the midpoint, so the assumption likely started there. It also roughly defined the states that supported slavery from the ones that didn't, so that also fed into the north/south distinction.

There is nothing southern about Northern Virginia at this point. It's just DC suburbs out to the WV border.

It has a little bit to do with states that wanted to keep slavery and seceded from the union. You can argue all you want about Norther and Southern cultures, but the Mason Dixon line is a real thing.

At least not to me, compared to what the area was like in the '80s when we moved here. Fewer southern accents these days, MANY more transplants - when I was growing up virtually all of the kids I knew were from families that were local going back generations. Most of my kid's friends either are transplants or their parents are.

.

In comment 14013469 Britt in VA said:

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south. If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

I have left no felt Richmond, but can easily buy Fredericksburg.

Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'.

In comment 14013755 mrvax said:

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Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'.

Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South".

In comment 14013712 Greg from LI said:

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At least not to me, compared to what the area was like in the '80s when we moved here. Fewer southern accents these days, MANY more transplants - when I was growing up virtually all of the kids I knew were from families that were local going back generations. Most of my kid's friends either are transplants or their parents are.

On my street in Virginia Beach, we have one family from VB and one from Norfolk. Two families are from the UK, two are from Brooklyn, one from LI and the Bronx (my family), one from the Philippines, one from California, one from Minnesota, one from Maine, one from Pittsburgh, and one from Flordia. The majority of my co-workers are from the northeast. I imagine it was different 40 years ago, but in the 18 years I have been here, it doesn't seem very southern to me at all unless I drive to a rural area.

and in my opinion it has less to do with how the alignment was drawn during the civil war than the culture of the area.

WV was part of the North during the war, but culturally they are more southern than not. Also Southern Indiana has a different feel than Northern or Central Indiana.

It doesn't hold true for coastal states, but west of those, personal experience has shown Interstate 70 to be an artificial line that seems to divide the nation into North and South culturally.

that past the switch over the farther south you go the less south it seems.

In comment 14013765 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 14013755 mrvax said: Quote: Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'. Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South".

You could be right but even the Tampa area doesn't seem 'southern' to me.

I've never considered it part of the South outside of the Panhandle.

I live in the Research Triangle so I technically live in the South. But I don't consider it 'the South'. Majority of my coworkers and neighbors are from elsewhere. I don't hear many y'alls on a daily basis.

In comment 14013796 mrvax said:

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In comment 14013765 Diver_Down said: Quote: In comment 14013755 mrvax said: Quote: Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'. Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South". You could be right but even the Tampa area doesn't seem 'southern' to me.

For the most part, the coast of Florida is not southern. Even in the panhandle, you have to get away from the coast. But if you go deep along the spine of the state, it is all south with some areas "deep south" except for the exclusion of the Orlando metro area. Lake O area, Ocala all the way to Lake City, Lake City area all the way across the panhandle - all of it is "deep south".

In comment 14013816 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I've never considered it part of the South outside of the Panhandle.

Have you ever ventured from the coast along the peninsula?

?

a true Southern state on the East coast. All of them, except maybe South Carolina, have large pockets of Northern/Eastern/liberal populations. The true South, for now, is confined to Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma,Louisiana,Texas and S.C., maybe Kentucky and Arkansas.

In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC.

Consider the midwest. I've spent time in Cincinnati and Evansville for business and they are interesting places on the north-south spectrum. Standard thinking is that the Ohio River is the dividing line, but southern Indiana, for example, felt pretty southern to me. Cincinnati, while in Ohio, was kind of a toss-up as well.

In comment 14013866 emcca005 said:

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In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC.

Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

In comment 14013878 Bill in UT said:

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In comment 14013866 emcca005 said: Quote: In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC. Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

Absolutely agree, when I taught geo in SC it was very interesting to see the back and forth between the students that had moved south from Northern states and those that had been raised in the south. Living just outside Charleston led for a great dynamic, you had the resentment towards Northern influx but the traditional values hadn't changed in certain ways.

To be in very southern environs, though. A friend of mine lives near Mineral in Louisa County, maybe 25 mins from here, and it's the kind of place that has a high number of big ass Ford trucks with shotgun racks and those Browning deer stickers.

it doesn't take long to get "southern"

I worked in Chantilly, VA for 5 years and as you get closer to Manassas you can definitely feel like you are in "the South"

there are or were many civil war plaques, memorials and markers of the battles from there (Bull Run?)

lately the town of Manassas has flipped politically, so they may have removed some of the civil war "celebrations" of confederate wins, I haven't been there in 20 years (thank god), but in the late 90's it was practically like taking a trip back to 1863.

In comment 14013878 Bill in UT said:

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In comment 14013866 emcca005 said: Quote: In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC. Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

I completely agree. I lived in NY from birth until age 27 with the exception of four years in Oakton (Fairfax county) during the 1970s. When I was in 4th, 5th, and 6th grades during the 1970s, I thought Oakton was very southern. It's totally different now. Where I live now in VB feels way less southern to me than what I recall NOVA being like during the 1970s. Everything is changing. I have not spent time in deep south, but I have heard that many people down there consider Virginia "yankee" territory now. I am very culturally a long islander. I could never survive here if it had a strong southern culture. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not for me. However, it just doesn't have that feel. My kids were born here and don't self-identify as southern. At best, it's "southern lite" - really more midatlantic to me. However, if I drive west to a rural area it feels very southern and so do many other parts of the state.

In comment 14013825 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 14013796 mrvax said: Quote: In comment 14013765 Diver_Down said: Quote: In comment 14013755 mrvax said: Quote: Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'. Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South". You could be right but even the Tampa area doesn't seem 'southern' to me. For the most part, the coast of Florida is not southern. Even in the panhandle, you have to get away from the coast. But if you go deep along the spine of the state, it is all south with some areas "deep south" except for the exclusion of the Orlando metro area. Lake O area, Ocala all the way to Lake City, Lake City area all the way across the panhandle - all of it is "deep south".

100% Correct. I live in Ocala and even that has gotten more "modern" with more transplants here and there is a lot of money here as it is the "Horse Capital of the World" but it damn sure is still the "south". And venture outside of Ocala? Salt Springs, Wildwood, Inverness.. etc? It doesn't even get more south than that. Anywhere.

that for most if not all of the old Southern states, the big cities have been Northernized, the more rural you get, the more Southern it is.

I lived in Pensacola for 7 years. I lived 10 minutes from the Florida-Alabama state line, and it was much more like Alabama than like the rest of Florida.

On a job when I lived there, there was a lady who worked for a client company who was a self proclaimed redneck woman (had a sticker on her truck saying it). She asked me once where I was from, because "it sure as hell ain't around here". Not wanting to tell her my life story, I said Virginia. "Right, I could tell you were from the North." When I said that Virginia wasn't the North, she told me "Anything north of I-10 is too far north for me"

In comment 14013941 Greg from LI said:

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I lived in Pensacola for 7 years. I lived 10 minutes from the Florida-Alabama state line, and it was much more like Alabama than like the rest of Florida. On a job when I lived there, there was a lady who worked for a client company who was a self proclaimed redneck woman (had a sticker on her truck saying it). She asked me once where I was from, because "it sure as hell ain't around here". Not wanting to tell her my life story, I said Virginia. "Right, I could tell you were from the North." When I said that Virginia wasn't the North, she told me "Anything north of I-10 is too far north for me"

You are correct in that you don't have to stray far from the coast to be in the heart of the South. I used that generality to summarize those that only vacation to draw their conclusion about Florida not being the South. If a visitor only stays at the beach or Disney, they are missing a huge part of the state.

Even the metro "Northernized" areas haven't bled too far in the suburbs. Look at Jax. The beach area, downtown, 295 beltway are all fairly "Northernized". The town of Macclenny just outside of Jax is the county seat of Baker County. In the courthouse is a mural depicting KKK riders on horseback.

Buddy & I once drove from Atlanta to Oxford, MS for an Ole Miss football game. Jesus. Talk about a drive back in time. I think we saw a Confederate monument every 5 minutes or so.

due to their foods (biscuits & sausage gravy, grits etc.), care for their neighbor & slower pace. However, Confederate shit pisses me off.

One time while in the USMC in Tennessee, another Marine from Texas decided to hang a confederate flag in our room. I tore that SOB off the wall, washed/flushed it in a toilet, rolled it into a ball and tossed it on the floor by his rack.

I told him what I did and he never hung it up again. There was nothing he could do about it b/c I was bigger and stronger than him. Too F-ing bad.

VA, NC, SC, and GA were the main parts of "the south". Fla, Texas, etc., came later. I think this has a lot to do with some people's perception that VA or NC is more "south" than Florida. There is more southern history and they do have a common feel. Texas is really the wild west feel, Florida feels different too.

includes the middle of MD through NoVA, with the south starting in Western MD and Eastern Shore MD, IMO.

...Alabama is 2 hours by plane, 8 minutes by car.

Excepting Philly and Pittsburgh, Pennsyltucky is as red as they come.

Culturally, I believe it's the PA and Md borders.

Physically, yeah, Mason Dixon suffices.

people move awfully slow.

There is nothing about that city that suggests "southern" to me.

I've spent the past 20+ years in and around Manhattan ...

it's a matter of perspective.

I'm guessing Minneapolis and Pittsburgh aren't very similar to Manhattan either.

In comment 14013524 DennyInDenville said:

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It's true

It's not true. I think the most northerly Waffle House is in Scranton, PA.

In comment 14014072 Greg from LI said:

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I'm guessing Minneapolis and Pittsburgh aren't very similar to Manhattan either.

No, they're not.

Any other snark?

In comment 14014073 RinR said:

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In comment 14013524 DennyInDenville said: Quote: It's true It's not true. I think the most northerly Waffle House is in Scranton, PA.

Exactly. Culturally, Scranton is in a red region. Don't believe me? Take your family to Knoebel's Grove Amusement Park. Fantastic amusement park, but you'll feel like your in Arkansas instead of a Northern State.

PA is pretty much Alabama between Pittsburgh & Philly.

it's the Occoquan river in VA. That's where shit suddenly feels very Dixie (to me, anyway) heading south along 95.

In comment 14014060 x meadowlander said:

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...Alabama is 2 hours by plane, 8 minutes by car. Excepting Philly and Pittsburgh, Pennsyltucky is as red as they come. Culturally, I believe it's the PA and Md borders. Physically, yeah, Mason Dixon suffices.

In 2018, culturally, I think rural/urban is probably a more significant divide than north/south (at least the upper south). At this moment, I am on vacation at my mother's place in a tiny town on the Delaware river in PA. It's just a few hours from NYC, but the culture here is way more similar to other small towns I have been to in the south (or upstate NY for that matter) than it is to Richmond, DC, etc. It's very slow paced, people are super friendly, etc. Where I live in southern VA is far more similar to long island than this place is to long island.

consider themselves to be Southern. I've had this discussion with strangers in bars many times. It doesn't make sense to me. I live in Baltimore, a Mid-Atlantic industrial port city that plays "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" and "Cotton-Eye Joe" during the 7th inning stretch of every O's game.

Why? I have no idea, but they did.

In comment 14014144 Greg from LI said:

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Why? I have no idea, but they did.

Same with the Nassau Coliseum for Islander games. Annoying as hell.

and then I drove from VA to Ocean City Maryland. There is nothing, but farm land for miles, and people have southern accents in Maryland. It really is a Southern State.

In comment 14014144 Greg from LI said:

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Why? I have no idea, but they did.

The same sinister, evil playlist is used at most major and definitely minor league baseball and hockey games.

Add speakers and CRANK shitty, shitty tunes that make the seals clap at virtually EVERY dead moment, making a hockey game a nightmare musical performance. Honestly, it's the one thing I HATE about going to games now.

But as far as I'm concerened, Everything above
Big Pine Key is "up North"

I've lived in the northeast my whole life and probably wouldn't feel comfortable living in a "southern" culture either, or, for that matter, any distinct culture in which I wasn't raised.

But damn - you read some of these responses and you can just hear the horror movie music when mentioning "the south."

In comment 14014146 figgy2989 said:

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In comment 14014144 Greg from LI said: Quote: Why? I have no idea, but they did. Same with the Nassau Coliseum for Islander games. Annoying as hell.

Possibly the most annoying song ever recorded.

In comment 14014108 Pete in MD said:

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consider themselves to be Southern. I've had this discussion with strangers in bars many times. It doesn't make sense to me. I live in Baltimore, a Mid-Atlantic industrial port city that plays "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" and "Cotton-Eye Joe" during the 7th inning stretch of every O's game.

country the way John Denver used it <> Southern. It's farm-ish and there are more farms in non traditional "southern" states than southern.

So maybe the song has taken on context of country = south it's not the intent and I'm pretty sure it's played because it's a catchy song.

kind of like how the more annoying sweet caroline is played at every sporting event now.

they are just catchy songs, that everyone knows the words too, that can solicit crowd response and interaction. There aren't that many songs that can appease a large range of people.

In comment 14014222 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14014108 Pete in MD said: Quote: consider themselves to be Southern. I've had this discussion with strangers in bars many times. It doesn't make sense to me. I live in Baltimore, a Mid-Atlantic industrial port city that plays "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" and "Cotton-Eye Joe" during the 7th inning stretch of every O's game. country the way John Denver used it <> Southern. It's farm-ish and there are more farms in non traditional "southern" states than southern. So maybe the song has taken on context of country = south it's not the intent and I'm pretty sure it's played because it's a catchy song. kind of like how the more annoying sweet caroline is played at every sporting event now.

Interestingly enough, most of the lyrics to another one of John Denver's big hits, "Take Me Home, Country Roads," were written by a guy driving through a rural part of Maryland. I believe West Virginia reference was added later.

I grew up in Bergen County through high school, went to college in Fredericksburg and have lived around the DC suburbs for the past near 25 years (both NoVa and Maryland). Fredericksburg is a good starting point. However, IMO its Richmond. Fredericksburg loves it history, but people are consistently different starting in Richmond. IMO.

I'm probably joining two loosely related things in my mind. But many people in Maryland absolutely believe they are from "the South." I'm sure everyone remembers the numerous Confederate monuments removed in Baltimore just last year.

Another interesting tidbit, is Robert E. Lee's miscalculation of the dynamics of Maryland when he invaded the North during the Civil War. Because of the many Southern sympathizers in Eastern and Southern Maryland, he believed the entire state felt the same and expected his army to be welcomed when they arrived in Western Maryland. The opposite occurred because most of Western Maryland was pro-Union due to numerous familial ties to Pennsylvania and soon-to-be West Virginia.