NFT: Where do you consider ‘the south’ to begin?

"The South" has to start somewhere south of DC. I've always viewed Williamsburg, VA as part of the south so to me the border is around that area which aligns with your view of Richmond being the border.

I don't consider Maryland to be the South either and for me that starts in Virginia.

Maybe because it was where I first heard the term "y'all" but it's more likely because I think of Maryland as Mid-Atlantic not South. Never felt that way about Virginia. It's always been South for me no question about it.

MD is not a "southern" state

to be a southern state. For me, I would say Virginia once you get out of the DC suburbs.

As someone who has lived here for a couple of years now, the South is a like whole different country. And I mean that in a good & bad way. It's just different.

In Florida they say “The farther north you go, the more south you are.”

that Virginia is the start, although Maryland had strong southern leanings during the Civil War. Looking a a map you would think North Carolina, physically.

Virginia, Tennessee and below...

You don’t reach the Virginia Welcome Center on I-95 until you cross to the south of the river.

Really south jersey is the south

Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, all southern ...

The "Real" south though? Where it's all really southern everywhere?

The northern North Carolina border , going down 95 to Jupiter FL, that's all the south for sure

The two surveyors mapped the boundary between two colonies, Pennsylvania and Maryland in 1767 because of a border dispute that was more than a hundred years old at the time.

It was never intended to define the North from the South. The distinction between the Confederacy and the Federal government was political and not geographic. That fact that that line separated the two was coincidental.

/history lesson :)

but I would put it right through White Plains, Md.
Southern parts of Charles county & Calvert county and all of St.Mary's county.

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Only I include Kentucky and West Virginia

once you get south of D.C. Maybe Fredericksburg, VA southwards.

and mid-Atlantic and the "south" are not mutually exclusive as VA is largely both although I dont think anyone considers NY/NJ as mid-Atlantic; just northeast.

the eastern shore of Maryland could absolutely be considered part of the south, same with far western Maryland up in the hills.

In comment 14013449 Anakim said:

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Only I include Kentucky and West Virginia

Nope, WVA split from Virginia because it didn't agree with Virginia's southern beliefs and Kentucky is not Tennessee and even Tennessee didn't not want to secede from the Union.

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south.

If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

In comment 14013469 Britt in VA said:

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south. If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

Yeah I can agree with that. My point about Virginia wasn't so much about where in Virginia but the South to me starts in Virginia as opposed to Maryland or NC.

is the start of the south to me.

Then the 500 miles of South of the Border signs start.

For me personally. As others have said, NOVA is very diverse and tend to be suburbs of DC. A lot of those living in NOVA are N.Y. metro area transplants.

Once you hit the Richmond area, that’s where I start to feel the southern vibe. Of course you always have pockets of the northeast in the south.

It's true

Fredericksburg Va is a decent line tho.. but I'd say 90 miles south of that

Of north Arlington, NJ.

Part of the reason I stayed here (grew up on LI) is that I don't find it to have much of a southern influence. There are so many transplants. It seems finding people who were born and raised here is more the exception than the norm. Richmond feels way more southern to me (e.g., more noticeable accents) than Norfolk/VB. Also, Northern Virginia does not feel southern at all to me.

In comment 14013425 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In Florida they say “The farther north you go, the more south you are.”

Florida is a good example. It all depends where you are. Plenty of places in upstate NY feel more "southern" to me than Miami. Rural versus urban is a more important distinction to me than north versus south. I notice more differences there than geograhpically.

First major battle of the Civil War for a reason, and still marks the line to me.

DC and NoVA aren't the South, but areas to the Northwest and Southwest of DC like Winchester, Warrenton and Quantico are.

I'm New England born and bred, but I've (mostly) lived in VA since the late 80's.

In comment 14013441 KeoweeFan said:

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The two surveyors mapped the boundary between two colonies, Pennsylvania and Maryland in 1767 because of a border dispute that was more than a hundred years old at the time. It was never intended to define the North from the South. The distinction between the Confederacy and the Federal government was political and not geographic. That fact that that line separated the two was coincidental. /history lesson :)

I'd also add two points. First when you look at the orginal 13 colonies this was sort of the midpoint, so the assumption likely started there. It also roughly defined the states that supported slavery from the ones that didn't, so that also fed into the north/south distinction.

There is nothing southern about Northern Virginia at this point. It's just DC suburbs out to the WV border.

It has a little bit to do with states that wanted to keep slavery and seceded from the union. You can argue all you want about Norther and Southern cultures, but the Mason Dixon line is a real thing.

At least not to me, compared to what the area was like in the '80s when we moved here. Fewer southern accents these days, MANY more transplants - when I was growing up virtually all of the kids I knew were from families that were local going back generations. Most of my kid's friends either are transplants or their parents are.

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In comment 14013469 Britt in VA said:

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Anything north of that is major metropolitan area. Northern VA is WAY too diverse (melting pot of all cultures) and metropolitan to be the south. If you're familiar with VA at all, you know it's a major change once you pass Fredericksburg either direction. Might as well be two different states.

I have left no felt Richmond, but can easily buy Fredericksburg.

Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'.

In comment 14013755 mrvax said:

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Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'.

Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South".

In comment 14013712 Greg from LI said:

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At least not to me, compared to what the area was like in the '80s when we moved here. Fewer southern accents these days, MANY more transplants - when I was growing up virtually all of the kids I knew were from families that were local going back generations. Most of my kid's friends either are transplants or their parents are.

On my street in Virginia Beach, we have one family from VB and one from Norfolk. Two families are from the UK, two are from Brooklyn, one from LI and the Bronx (my family), one from the Philippines, one from California, one from Minnesota, one from Maine, one from Pittsburgh, and one from Flordia. The majority of my co-workers are from the northeast. I imagine it was different 40 years ago, but in the 18 years I have been here, it doesn't seem very southern to me at all unless I drive to a rural area.

and in my opinion it has less to do with how the alignment was drawn during the civil war than the culture of the area.

WV was part of the North during the war, but culturally they are more southern than not. Also Southern Indiana has a different feel than Northern or Central Indiana.

It doesn't hold true for coastal states, but west of those, personal experience has shown Interstate 70 to be an artificial line that seems to divide the nation into North and South culturally.

that past the switch over the farther south you go the less south it seems.

In comment 14013765 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 14013755 mrvax said: Quote: Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'. Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South".

You could be right but even the Tampa area doesn't seem 'southern' to me.

I've never considered it part of the South outside of the Panhandle.

I live in the Research Triangle so I technically live in the South. But I don't consider it 'the South'. Majority of my coworkers and neighbors are from elsewhere. I don't hear many y'alls on a daily basis.

In comment 14013796 mrvax said:

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In comment 14013765 Diver_Down said: Quote: In comment 14013755 mrvax said: Quote: Folks there refer to NYers as 'Yankees'. Central Florida is not 'The South'. Correction - Orlando metro area is not "The South". Central Florida is very much "The South". You could be right but even the Tampa area doesn't seem 'southern' to me.

For the most part, the coast of Florida is not southern. Even in the panhandle, you have to get away from the coast. But if you go deep along the spine of the state, it is all south with some areas "deep south" except for the exclusion of the Orlando metro area. Lake O area, Ocala all the way to Lake City, Lake City area all the way across the panhandle - all of it is "deep south".

In comment 14013816 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I've never considered it part of the South outside of the Panhandle.

Have you ever ventured from the coast along the peninsula?

?

a true Southern state on the East coast. All of them, except maybe South Carolina, have large pockets of Northern/Eastern/liberal populations. The true South, for now, is confined to Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma,Louisiana,Texas and S.C., maybe Kentucky and Arkansas.

In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC.

Consider the midwest. I've spent time in Cincinnati and Evansville for business and they are interesting places on the north-south spectrum. Standard thinking is that the Ohio River is the dividing line, but southern Indiana, for example, felt pretty southern to me. Cincinnati, while in Ohio, was kind of a toss-up as well.

In comment 14013866 emcca005 said:

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In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC.

Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

In comment 14013878 Bill in UT said:

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In comment 14013866 emcca005 said: Quote: In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC. Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

Absolutely agree, when I taught geo in SC it was very interesting to see the back and forth between the students that had moved south from Northern states and those that had been raised in the south. Living just outside Charleston led for a great dynamic, you had the resentment towards Northern influx but the traditional values hadn't changed in certain ways.

To be in very southern environs, though. A friend of mine lives near Mineral in Louisa County, maybe 25 mins from here, and it's the kind of place that has a high number of big ass Ford trucks with shotgun racks and those Browning deer stickers.

it doesn't take long to get "southern"

I worked in Chantilly, VA for 5 years and as you get closer to Manassas you can definitely feel like you are in "the South"

there are or were many civil war plaques, memorials and markers of the battles from there (Bull Run?)

lately the town of Manassas has flipped politically, so they may have removed some of the civil war "celebrations" of confederate wins, I haven't been there in 20 years (thank god), but in the late 90's it was practically like taking a trip back to 1863.

In comment 14013878 Bill in UT said:

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In comment 14013866 emcca005 said: Quote: In Geography we teach about different types of regions, formal, functional, perceptual, etc. Perceptual is all your opinion, many don't consider most of Florida southern but would consider VA southern. You'll get just as varied answers with this question as you would with "what is upstate NY?". For me, South is VA that is south of DC. Northern VA is a suburb of DC. 3 of the 6 richest counties in the U.S. are there. VA is a purple state, you get military down the coast and Southern in the South, but it's increasing being Northernized.

I completely agree. I lived in NY from birth until age 27 with the exception of four years in Oakton (Fairfax county) during the 1970s. When I was in 4th, 5th, and 6th grades during the 1970s, I thought Oakton was very southern. It's totally different now. Where I live now in VB feels way less southern to me than what I recall NOVA being like during the 1970s. Everything is changing. I have not spent time in deep south, but I have heard that many people down there consider Virginia "yankee" territory now. I am very culturally a long islander. I could never survive here if it had a strong southern culture. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not for me. However, it just doesn't have that feel. My kids were born here and don't self-identify as southern. At best, it's "southern lite" - really more midatlantic to me. However, if I drive west to a rural area it feels very southern and so do many other parts of the state.