I play in this regular game, and semi-annually we have a bigger game, that over the course of the year we make small extra contributions that go toward the buy-in for this tourney. Cash prizes are about 3.5x higher than our normal game. Three tables in this game, we were at 2nd level with blinds 200-400 and I had just taken a bad beat with two pair when the player to my right spiked a higher two pair on the river.
I have a friend who is very talkative at the table whether or not he is in a hand. I was in the cut-off with Q diamonds-10 clubs. Flop comes K-J-10 rainbow. I believe the 10 was also diamonds so I had bottom pair, open-ended straight draw. SB checks, I bet 600, everyone folds except for SB, who calls.
Turn is 5 diamonds. SB again checks, I bet 800, SB calls again.
River is 7 diamonds. When it hits, my talkative buddy who is to the right of the BB makes a gesture, says, "Oh, I have to tell you what I folded after this hand." BB says, "yeah, me too."
SB checks, at this point, I had him on a pair of K's or J's. I know I can only win the pot if I rep the flush and move him off his hand. I bet 3K. SB calls very quickly, and I have just 3 bigs left in my stack.
Talkative buddy says he folded a flush, I immediately said, "yeah, I know, you kind of screwed me there." He didn't even pick up on it because he is in his own world, which is pretty normal for him. SB says, "yep." Which he also is oblivious to.
I then get pocket K's, move all-in, no takers, pick up the blinds, and follow with pocket J's, move all-in, no takers again, pick up the blinds. Next hand have A-3, I limp and it's A-2-4 flop. Big mouth checks, being short-stacked, I know the weak A is vulnerable but I'm heads up with Big Mouth. He calls, turns over A-5, turn and river is brick-brick, I'm busted, and livid. I don't do anything I just left immediately.
So I call him tonight after the game, he finishes 3rd for a nice cash. I go over the hand with him and tell him how much he put the screws to me, and he thinks I'm quote, "ridiculous," and "takes this waaaay too seriously." Doesn't think he did anything wrong and says that even if I was correct that he gave away that he folded a flush, there were still other flush possibles out there and that I lost because he knocked me out and I'm sour grapes.
I feel very confident I have a more than legitimate gripe here, he says he's never going to change and that's just how he is. Like talking to a brick wall, and gave me a half-assed apology that was more about he's sorry I felt he screwed me over, not anything that he actually did. Really, it wasn't just him, it was the BB too.
I'm calmed down but not over it. Do you guys have stories like that, and what happened, what did you do, and do you agree or disagree that this kind of thing is complete bullshit that shouldn't happen?
You lost two excellent opportunities to make back the chips you lost, but you shoved instead of trying to get callers.
You can't control idiots, but you can control yourself.
As for the hand ... you didn't say how many people were in the hand pre-flop. Was it 4? I assume you limped for $400 from the cut-off, the SB called and BB checked? I'm guessing at least one more person had limped, since you said after your $600 post-flop bet everyone folded except the SB ... assuming "everyone" is more than just the BB. So $1,600 in the pot?
Post-flop, it checks all the way around to you. Didn't you bet too weak with $600? An appropriate sized bet and that weak J is gone before he hits the 5.
he only had 3 blinds left in his stack. It's the only play IMO. He could be shoving with anything remotely playable at that point.
On another note, I use to enjoy the BBI games back in the day.
I didn't see how much he had left.
One time I was playing a $1K buy-in at Caesar's and we're early in the action and the guy to the left of me is facing a tough decision. Another player(not in the hand) points out that the guy who made the bet is shaking like he's holding quads. And he was. Quivering like I've never seen before. Player folds and the shaking guy claims he has a tic.
A few hands later, He's shaking again and turns over a monster hand. Everyone from that point forward knew the tell and he was out of the tourney fairly quickly.
No matter where you play, you're going to have table talk. Even with penalties, it will happen and there will be an impact
I get being upset, but it is a risk you take, especially in a home game. We can say it is a huge no-no, but frankly some people don't get that nor do they care.
Now I know better, but yeah, there were times where I would've flopped, turned or rivered a flush or a straight and I'd be so upset at myself to the point where I felt compelled to tell someone. I haven't played Poker in a couple of years, but if that situation happens now, I keep quiet and express my frustration after the hand is over.
Idiots also don't realize they are giving insight into their own play by sharing what they fold.
Curb Your Enthusiasm - ( New Window )
Part of the game is reading the reactions of those around the table as hand progresses to get tells. sighs, eyerolls, etc are all indications of what players were dealt. No excuse though to verbally say what you have before the hand is over.
I like playing against guys who chase flushes or who represent a flush. As long as I have top pair, I'm often calling that down, especially if the previous rounds betting aren't in line with landing a flush
I like playing against guys who chase flushes or who represent a flush. As long as I have top pair, I'm often calling that down, especially if the previous rounds betting aren't in line with landing a flush
+1 I think the bigger problem is you represented a hand on every street, which didn't make sense with how the cards came out. It was a bad river bluff while you were steaming. I think you might be overreacting a bit. Not that the guy was in the right, but I think there's more to your anger than just table talk.
800 on the turn
3000 on the river
Making that bet after two guys indicated they had flushes was crazy.
Maybe you do take it too seriously, but that's not really up to any of us to decide.
If you had the flush, his bad etiquette would have worked in your favor.
However, if I were in a casino, I'd definitely be bitching to the dealer.
It seems like you knew earlier in the hand that big mouth has made it known that he folded a flush. Why go ahead and try and bluff on the river when you knew SB was paying attention to big mouth? Your bluff isn't ordinarily a bad play on a board like that, but if you knew that big-mouth had mostly blown your chance to rep a flush, better off to dial it down there.
One thing I've learned about poker is only focus on the things you can control. You might not be able to get big-mouth to shut up, but you could've assessed the situation and used all the information to make the best decision.
I think this is fair criticism. It was pretty bang-bang in sense of timing. I knew right away that if I didn't complete the straight, I would need to bluff that hand to take that pot or else I'm losing it. I could've stopped as soon as they were talking and slowed it down, it was already a pretty crucial spot for me if I lost the hand, which I was going to do if I just checked, but of course bluffing off the majority of my stack made it that much harder on myself. In that situation, the possible broadway straight out there as well, I was hoping my opponent just wouldn't be willing to risk his chips. The straight wasn't really all that believable because if I had A-Q I'm probably raising pre-flop, and if I had Q-9 I probably play more aggressive on the flop and especially on the turn.
I do think talking about the intracacies of the hand is helpful, so in a way, losing this pot has really made me think harder about the story. Hopefully, ultimately, this makes me a better player.
What I'm kicking my self for now is not raising pre-flop with even just a Q-10. This is a bigger conversation about poker strategy, I think the point here is maybe get much more tighter on the number of hands I play, but when I do play, always raise pre-flop in position with limpers and blinds behind you. With a J-5 offsuit, if I triple barrel pre-flop, the SB is going away. The problem is that in our game, you do that twice and if you don't take either down, your tournament is pretty much over because we play a relatively short stacked game normally. You can get pot committed pretty quickly.
I'm seeing this dude today. I'm sure it will come up again.
It's a good way to reflect and hopefully improve your own game play.
I play in Magic the Gathering tournaments (yeah, I know... NERD), and one most annoying situations is when friends or onlookers start commenting on a player's hand. I find that if you point out the situation in a polite and direct way, they always stop.
Just my 2 cents but don't make it a big deal. Laugh off how your 3k bluff didn't work.....Although do let him know you would have had a better chance at the bluff working if he didn't make any comments.
You would hope in that context, he wouldn't be as defensive as he was last night when you called him out on it and hopefully he can see your point of view.
Good Luck!
If you don't hit or have a flat board, you can make a play for the pot, but most of the time, you have to play for a draw or run a bluff to take the pot down. Re-looking at the description of the hand, I'm still not sure how you would rep that you had a flush based on the betting pattern.
It is hindsight, but not getting that involved in a pot with Q-10 is probably the long-term lesson to take away. The table talk might even be a completely separate issue because I really can't say that it cost you the pot. I'd have called you down with an overbet on the river that seemed like a missed draw.
the guy was talking and he and the BB 100% screwed you, but you have to cut your losses there. if you know the SB and know he is a decent player who is paying attention to table talk, then you should have just waved the white flag. your hand does have some show down value, so i would have just checked and hoped for one behind. OR a check raise on the river might have made him a believer, even with the talk. betting on that river IMO is a mistake.
in terms of handling the talkers, i suggest as some have to move to a different game. you are taking it serious, so move to a game where that shit doesnt happen. that being said, most people who dont know poker and whats right and wrong as usually horrible donks so i would stay and just continue to take big mouths money. you should 100% though say something next tournament about the chatter and how it needs to be cut down. as for the A3 hand and the Ks and Js not netting money, thats poker. you cannot be so results oriented. you made the right plays with Ks and Js, over time you will win and get paid.
You would definitely have a reason to be pissed if he said that AFTER you had bet, but he said it before, so that info was available to you when you made the move. In a casual game, it's a minor faux pas. Reaming him out and getting overly pissed at him on that hand is tantamount to playing in friendly golf foursome and screaming at your buddy for stepping on your line when you blow a put 10 yards past the hole.
And people assuming I'm pissed because I lost the all-in with A-3. No...I wasn't, I was pissed about a player not in the hand destroying my equity, that's it. Being rivered happens all the time and I don't steam up when I play a hand the right way and take a bad beat. I'm numb to bad beats at this point.
I get being angry about the way you lost the hand. I've been bounced from tourneys quite a bit where I've either been sucked out on or there was a shady play - the "mistaken" all-in call, acting out of turn and having the floor rule in their favor, being angled out of a pot where a guy says fold and then when my cards hit the pot, he takes it back (floor again ruled in his favor).
Even in each of those cases where I lost, I can look back at mistakes I made either in that hand or directly leading up to it. And I've changed behavior. Like never hitting the muck with my cards unless the dealer puts them there.
The opening post read to me like a guy who was irrationally angry about losing a pot in a home game. And it still isn't clear to me that the table talk prevented the player from calling up your unusually high river bet when there was a rainbow board and the betting didn't indicate looking for a flush.
People are going to assume things. That's what happens when you post a story and not everyone thinks it was handled correctly.
You would definitely have a reason to be pissed if he said that AFTER you had bet, but he said it before, so that info was available to you when you made the move. In a casual game, it's a minor faux pas. Reaming him out and getting overly pissed at him on that hand is tantamount to playing in friendly golf foursome and screaming at your buddy for stepping on your line when you blow a put 10 yards past the hole.
This is idiotic. It's not the same thing. He destroyed my chances in the hand that was already a crucial pot for me. SB is a check-calling nit. If I had checked there, I still lose a major pot due to table talk. I had 1800 in the pot before my bluff bet, which was 30% of my stack that had already taken a big hit on the previous bad beat. The small blind all but confirmed that the talk helped him call me right after the hand.
Fine to criticize the raise there, I repped a diamond flush hitting on the river after one maybe two guys made it obvious they folded diamonds. Still, there was a chance I had the flush anyway or the straight, and I made a play to try to take the pot, which again, was a pretty crucial pot. But none of that means that him giving away information wasn't significant, it was very significant to my chances in the pot and the tourney overall.
I get being angry about the way you lost the hand. I've been bounced from tourneys quite a bit where I've either been sucked out on or there was a shady play - the "mistaken" all-in call, acting out of turn and having the floor rule in their favor, being angled out of a pot where a guy says fold and then when my cards hit the pot, he takes it back (floor again ruled in his favor).
Even in each of those cases where I lost, I can look back at mistakes I made either in that hand or directly leading up to it. And I've changed behavior. Like never hitting the muck with my cards unless the dealer puts them there.
The opening post read to me like a guy who was irrationally angry about losing a pot in a home game. And it still isn't clear to me that the table talk prevented the player from calling up your unusually high river bet when there was a rainbow board and the betting didn't indicate looking for a flush.
People are going to assume things. That's what happens when you post a story and not everyone thinks it was handled correctly.
I didn't berate him. I was polite while informing him of the infraction. Didn't yell, didn't scream, didn't call him names. Was calm, but he didn't feel he did anything wrong whatsoever and I have no right to feel otherwise. To be honest his lack of respect for the impact that action made or even attempting to try to see it from my pocket is what really makes me mad because I'd have really already let it go. Just an apology all I wanted.
We started with more than that.
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Makes this story all the more pathetic.
We started with more than that.
I guess it sounds like a tourney, but that stake situation sounds fucked.
My opinion of the game. Your friend should have kept his mouth shut but you shouldn't be shocked that someone is a blabber mouth in a casual game. You obviously take it more seriously and get something different from the game than some of the guys you play with do.
The bottom line is it worth harming the friendship over? If not, IMO let it go.
It's not even poker etiquette, it's 100% wrong and will land you a penalty in a casino.
It's not even poker etiquette, it's 100% wrong and will land you a penalty in a casino.
This is true but not something that is obvious to casual players. You're playing a home game, casual players are at home games.
The more important question (more on this later) - is are you made at the action or the outcome?
If you win the hand are you calling him after, posting a thread on BBI etc.? If it's the principles of the table, you've made your point. If he does it again, either handle it right then and there or call it quits on this group.
If you're really actually more pissed you lost -- ask yourself this: when he talked, did you *know* in the moment he blew your hand? If you knew he blew your hand why did you press on? Did you show?
Did you not *know* in the moment he blew your hand, and did you figure it out in retrospect? Did the rest of table know something you didn't?
In these situations in life, the only way to feel better is to kick his ass. Either with your hand, or your fist. Come away a better poker player, or get your point across.
It's probably a much, much better decision to come away a better poker player.
The more important question (more on this later) - is are you made at the action or the outcome?
If you win the hand are you calling him after, posting a thread on BBI etc.? If it's the principles of the table, you've made your point. If he does it again, either handle it right then and there or call it quits on this group.
If you're really actually more pissed you lost -- ask yourself this: when he talked, did you *know* in the moment he blew your hand? If you knew he blew your hand why did you press on? Did you show?
Did you not *know* in the moment he blew your hand, and did you figure it out in retrospect? Did the rest of table know something you didn't?
In these situations in life, the only way to feel better is to kick his ass. Either with your hand, or your fist. Come away a better poker player, or get your point across.
It's probably a much, much better decision to come away a better poker player.
Good post. I suppose I was mad at the action...I was definitely mad before the outcome. But after the call of course I was steaming mad because of the result. Obviously, if I did get a fold there it would be much easier to deal with. I still say something to him though, and he is would still think I'm ridiculous for thinking it is an issue.
Calm down. I said before that I mosread his initial post because there was a lot of poker jargon that I was deciphering in addition to reading the post.
yes, if you look back in my post, i explained it was a bad bluff. he had the info and still compounded his problems, should have just waived the white flag.
Its 100% really poor form by the talker, imo its a cardinal sin at the table. that being said i agree, its allstars fault, he made the bet after the talk
I generally stay away from poker games because I dont know all the quid pro quos.
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If people a couple of people who aren't that familiar with proper etiquette at the table want to be wrong, that's fine. I guarantee if I was at their table and started talking about cards I folded while they had chips in and it reduced their equity, they'd be pissed.
It's not even poker etiquette, it's 100% wrong and will land you a penalty in a casino.
This is true but not something that is obvious to casual players. You're playing a home game, casual players are at home games.
Aces, it's a home game in a loose sense. It's a weekly game, and not even two weeks ago the organizer said, due to some other bullshit that went down (a player who has tried some tricky shit (approaching an angle shoot) in the past, tried to reduce the bet size after other action had been played. Btw I called that one out immediately also.
Organizer cracked down and reiterated all this stuff, including not talking about your hand while action is being played. It's been reinforced and I myself have admonished this guy in the past when it didn't affect me for talking about his hand. He was equally belligerent about it.
The strong majority of the players are seasoned and know what is right and wrong at the table. It's just a few that continue to display bad form. Anyway, it's over with.
I generally stay away from poker games because I dont know all the quid pro quos.
Only way to get better is to play. I of course have played out of turn. Almost everyone has. I do apologize when I do it, because actually it is a big deal if the player or players in front of you are considering a call or fold, they have to take into account the likelihood of the players behind them also calling, thereby reducing their equity. Folding out of turn reduces the equity of the original bettor by giving away information that the subsequent players in front of you shouldn't have.
Anyway, there are a lot of poker books out there that can help you understand the jargon and intricacies. Poker is a great game and the more you unpack it the more fun it gets.
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When I first started playing poker and didnt know what I was doing, I had shit cards, saw the flop, and tossed my cards in well ahead of my turn and was chewed out for doing so. While I realize it might affect bets leading up to me, to this day I didnt see THAT as a very big deal. Wasnt even a serious game either nor were people deluding themselves that it was.
I generally stay away from poker games because I dont know all the quid pro quos.
Only way to get better is to play. I of course have played out of turn. Almost everyone has. I do apologize when I do it, because actually it is a big deal if the player or players in front of you are considering a call or fold, they have to take into account the likelihood of the players behind them also calling, thereby reducing their equity. Folding out of turn reduces the equity of the original bettor by giving away information that the subsequent players in front of you shouldn't have.
Anyway, there are a lot of poker books out there that can help you understand the jargon and intricacies. Poker is a great game and the more you unpack it the more fun it gets.
Yea, I totally get it now and even understood it then. But it was like 5 of us playing $1-$10 bets. I was annoyed at not being able to play like 5 straight hand because of rubbish, was fairly bombed and the max pot size was no more than like 40/50 bucks. It was a "lighten up Francis" moment for sure.
I used to roll my friends at cards in high school and in college. Winning nearly everytime I played, even though it was nickel and dime antes and the largest pot might have been from a game of guts.
Turned 21 and went to Vegas and sat down to play. Back in the day, Hold 'Em was just getting popular, but limit hold 'em was played in most card room, as was 7 card and pineapple.
Sat down to play Pineapple and realized right away I was in over my head. I was the youngest guy at the table by 40 years and the guys folded when they didn't have a hand and bet strong when they did. Lost $200 in like 20 minutes which was difficult to do in limit games!
But I continued to play and learn. Been part of many Charlotte games that have been shut down and when playing in those situations, you always have an awareness about you of legalities and etiquette. Doing the wrong thing there carries a much stiffer penalty.
But one thing I've learned over the years is that when you mix alcohol, money and bravado, you'll see a shitload of scenarios. Bad etiquette can be a combination of those factors, as well as ignorance of the rules. For some poker is a social game and they like to talk, even when not in a hand and like I said above, in most home games, that's fine. Casinos have sanctions that can be put in place, but even those can't overcome terrible bet decisions even when information is directly evident.
Honestly, it comes down to the old fish syndrome. You have to put up with a lot of bad play from a fish and some suckouts, but in the long run you want that guy to keep playing and coming back.
If there's an opening in my regular game, I'll let you know, but it is mainly a cash pot-limit Omaha High-Low game with $.50/$1 antes. Occasionally, I'll get a heads-up on a tournament being run. Send me an email with your contact info and I'll keep you up to date.
I'm heading up to Live! Maryland next month to play for a week. I think I already missed the Borgata Summer Series. Then I'll play in the next WSOP event up at Cherokee.