I play in this regular game, and semi-annually we have a bigger game, that over the course of the year we make small extra contributions that go toward the buy-in for this tourney. Cash prizes are about 3.5x higher than our normal game. Three tables in this game, we were at 2nd level with blinds 200-400 and I had just taken a bad beat with two pair when the player to my right spiked a higher two pair on the river.
I have a friend who is very talkative at the table whether or not he is in a hand. I was in the cut-off with Q diamonds-10 clubs. Flop comes K-J-10 rainbow. I believe the 10 was also diamonds so I had bottom pair, open-ended straight draw. SB checks, I bet 600, everyone folds except for SB, who calls.
Turn is 5 diamonds. SB again checks, I bet 800, SB calls again.
River is 7 diamonds. When it hits, my talkative buddy who is to the right of the BB makes a gesture, says, "Oh, I have to tell you what I folded after this hand." BB says, "yeah, me too."
SB checks, at this point, I had him on a pair of K's or J's. I know I can only win the pot if I rep the flush and move him off his hand. I bet 3K. SB calls very quickly, and I have just 3 bigs left in my stack.
Talkative buddy says he folded a flush, I immediately said, "yeah, I know, you kind of screwed me there." He didn't even pick up on it because he is in his own world, which is pretty normal for him. SB says, "yep." Which he also is oblivious to.
I then get pocket K's, move all-in, no takers, pick up the blinds, and follow with pocket J's, move all-in, no takers again, pick up the blinds. Next hand have A-3, I limp and it's A-2-4 flop. Big mouth checks, being short-stacked, I know the weak A is vulnerable but I'm heads up with Big Mouth. He calls, turns over A-5, turn and river is brick-brick, I'm busted, and livid. I don't do anything I just left immediately.
So I call him tonight after the game, he finishes 3rd for a nice cash. I go over the hand with him and tell him how much he put the screws to me, and he thinks I'm quote, "ridiculous," and "takes this waaaay too seriously." Doesn't think he did anything wrong and says that even if I was correct that he gave away that he folded a flush, there were still other flush possibles out there and that I lost because he knocked me out and I'm sour grapes.
I feel very confident I have a more than legitimate gripe here, he says he's never going to change and that's just how he is. Like talking to a brick wall, and gave me a half-assed apology that was more about he's sorry I felt he screwed me over, not anything that he actually did. Really, it wasn't just him, it was the BB too.
I'm calmed down but not over it. Do you guys have stories like that, and what happened, what did you do, and do you agree or disagree that this kind of thing is complete bullshit that shouldn't happen?
I don't think you are wrong per se but you can't solve that problem if the guy plays like that and nobody else pipes up.
I don't think you are wrong per se but you can't solve that problem if the guy plays like that and nobody else pipes up.
People have said stuff before to try and shut that down, it's a game with some players that are pretty serious, those with a true love of the game, and those that are truly just playing just for the fun of it. The quality of play from some of the players is pretty high.
Bricks are non-helpful cards to either hand. They were bricks to my hand, and a fairly safe assumption to assume they were bricks to the opponents hand based on betting pattern.
The problem is that you have 13 cards of each suit. If three are on the board, and say you have one of them, and 2 players give away they probably folded flushes, that means I have to have 2 out of the possible 5 remaining diamond cards that are out of play. Opponent feels much, much more comfortable calling with two pair. If opponent doesn't get the extra information, the possibility I actually do have the flush is much greater, and the call is much riskier.
My point being, after the diamond hit the river, your loud mouth buddy and BB made comments that they had possible diamonds that they folded. Both players comments already ruined your chances of getting away with the bluff. Why bluff bet more than 2/3 of your stack away with a 3k bet when you only had 3 big blinds left at the 200/400 level. With the information given to the SB that diamonds were folded by several players, you should have check/called and still would have had 10+ Big Blinds left.
Only way I can see you getting upset is after the river, if you made your 3k bet.....AND than Big Mouth and BB made those comments, which severely jeopardize the bet you just made.
If the comments were made and you still tried to bluff with your 3k bet, you than only have one person to get upset at.
Probably not worth the trouble if he's a hot head but it would be funny if you're all friends.
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but I dont really know what the problem is other than him yapping too much. Also, are "bricks" just when you dont get what you need during a draw?
Bricks are non-helpful cards to either hand. They were bricks to my hand, and a fairly safe assumption to assume they were bricks to the opponents hand based on betting pattern.
The problem is that you have 13 cards of each suit. If three are on the board, and say you have one of them, and 2 players give away they probably folded flushes, that means I have to have 2 out of the possible 5 remaining diamond cards that are out of play. Opponent feels much, much more comfortable calling with two pair. If opponent doesn't get the extra information, the possibility I actually do have the flush is much greater, and the call is much riskier.
Oh, I get THAT. I guess I just didnt get it from the way you wrote it. I thought your yappy friend was referring to a previous hand or something
There were no quad or full house possibilities, since there was no pair on the board.
He wouldn't have folded a pocket pair that would have made trips. So forget that.
It's unlikely that he would have folded a Q/9 to begin with, but even if he had, he would have said something after the flop, when that pocket would have made a straight.
It's possible that he could have folded a 9/8 offsuit, which would not have made a straight until the river. But would he have folded high-ish connectors? Maybe, maybe not.
But once that 7 of diamonds hit on the river, and he makes that comment, you gotta think he would have made a flush. And it would have likely been a low flush, because he would not likely have folded an Ace or face card of diamonds.
So maybe he folded something like a 6/2 of diamonds. Crap hand that would have gotten lucky. But now he basically tells your live opponent that there are two burned diamonds in the pile.
It sucks. I used to play monthly with between 7-20 people. Lowish stakes, a social gathering as much as anything. But a long-time buddy of mine who played all the time pretty much thought that every single thing that went against him was due to awful luck and the poker gods basically hating him. And if good luck happened to others, it was sooo unfair and ridiculous and annoying to him, like those people didn't deserve to win the hands. When he folded a pocket that would have ended up being strong, he wouldn't be able to hide it, either. He would shake his head and mumble, "You have GOT TO be kidding me! Are you serious with this bullshit?!" It told everyone at the table what he folded -- in particular, the players still active in the hand.
We stopped our monthly games some years back. I miss playing poker, but I don't miss things like that.
My point being, after the diamond hit the river, your loud mouth buddy and BB made comments that they had possible diamonds that they folded. Both players comments already ruined your chances of getting away with the bluff. Why bluff bet more than 2/3 of your stack away with a 3k bet when you only had 3 big blinds left at the 200/400 level. With the information given to the SB that diamonds were folded by several players, you should have check/called and still would have had 10+ Big Blinds left.
Only way I can see you getting upset is after the river, if you made your 3k bet.....AND than Big Mouth and BB made those comments, which severely jeopardize the bet you just made.
If the comments were made and you still tried to bluff with your 3k bet, you than only have one person to get upset at.
After losing the big pot in the previous hand where my opponent sucked out the river, I felt like I needed that pot or I would be in trouble stack-wise, and was hoping the SB didn't catch the side commentary. I understand in retrospect the table talk diminished my chances of the bluff getting through...which means it still affected the hand and screwed me either way. Doesn't mean I should've still bluffed. I took my knowledge of the opponent, knowing he was pretty nitty, and felt that there was still a chance he might fold. And yes, I would've had about 10 BB's left, which still leaves me in a bad spot. 10 bigs is nothing. I win that hand and I can go back to playing my game, and don't have to force anything. No, the table talk didn't "get to me." It greatly harmed my perceived equity and chances of taking the pot thereby impacting the decision of another player. Criticism of my play is fair. I could've and probably should've just let the hand go, which again, doesn't change the fact that the table talk damaged me in the hand.
But no, talking about hands you folded is NOT just part of the game. Influencing the play by giving away information in hands you are not in can be penalized in regulated tournaments. Table talk is part of the game...with respect to players in the hand, in many cases trying to influence the decision of the other player in the hand (heads up only) with you. Depending on what is said, even in these instances of two heads up players it can be illegal. Imagine if in my scenario the UTG player not in the hand and the player considering the big call are very good friends. Such talk by the UTG player could be collusion at play at worst, and harming player equity giving information about mucked cards at best. They are part of the game in the same way that intentional head-hunting in football is part of the game. It happens, and when it does, penalties and even ejection may ensue due to its illegality.
There were no quad or full house possibilities, since there was no pair on the board.
He wouldn't have folded a pocket pair that would have made trips. So forget that.
It's unlikely that he would have folded a Q/9 to begin with, but even if he had, he would have said something after the flop, when that pocket would have made a straight.
It's possible that he could have folded a 9/8 offsuit, which would not have made a straight until the river. But would he have folded high-ish connectors? Maybe, maybe not.
But once that 7 of diamonds hit on the river, and he makes that comment, you gotta think he would have made a flush. And it would have likely been a low flush, because he would not likely have folded an Ace or face card of diamonds.
So maybe he folded something like a 6/2 of diamonds. Crap hand that would have gotten lucky. But now he basically tells your live opponent that there are two burned diamonds in the pile.
It sucks. I used to play monthly with between 7-20 people. Lowish stakes, a social gathering as much as anything. But a long-time buddy of mine who played all the time pretty much thought that every single thing that went against him was due to awful luck and the poker gods basically hating him. And if good luck happened to others, it was sooo unfair and ridiculous and annoying to him, like those people didn't deserve to win the hands. When he folded a pocket that would have ended up being strong, he wouldn't be able to hide it, either. He would shake his head and mumble, "You have GOT TO be kidding me! Are you serious with this bullshit?!" It told everyone at the table what he folded -- in particular, the players still active in the hand.
We stopped our monthly games some years back. I miss playing poker, but I don't miss things like that.
Thanks...I appreciate this. I don't want to be the complainer guy, but fuck...he just doesn't get it that his talk ended up basically ruining any realistic chance I had of going deep in that tournament.
What the people who are saying, "So he said something. Big deal" don't understand is that a big part of playing poker is sometimes representing a hand that you don't really have, to scare your opponent off. Critical to that strategy is your opponent(s) having no knowledge of which cards are out there other than their own and what's on the board. It's harder for you to convince your opponent that you have pocket diamonds when he knows that there are at least two from that suit sitting in the burned pile and three on the board.
And why should a player who's no longer in the hand have any influence on the way the hand plays out?
And if it's OK for one player to say something, what if another player who folded said something about his hand like, "Yeah, I did the same thing? And then a third player said something?
It's a shitty way to play poker, low-stakes or not.
I dont engage in table talk at all, mostly because I dont want to piss of anybody who DOES take it very seriously. Maybe a little bit while Im playing a hand, but NEVER when out of it. So I get that.
Poker is fun, but I feel like the new kid in the play yard most times. Lol
And if that's the etiquette at the table, you either play as he does, or find another table.
Your scenario happens often and not just verbally. How many times do we see a player make some kind if gesture when they would've hit. Rolling eyes, hitting the table, getting up from the table in disgust.
If the rest of the crew always assumes his hand and makes a determination of your hand based on his actions or talking, maybe you two should discuss working together.
But I'm not sure what you want to have happen. People talk at the tables. I can't tell if you are playing a home game or at a casino, but if it is a home game, that shit will happen. It is the implication one has to deal with when playing for fun.
Even in a sanctioned tourney, that might still happen and the harshest recourse would be a penalty for the guy who talked. Still doesn't give you relief. Basically, once the guy spoke up, you should've waved the white flag on getting the pot or hope that the other player was too oblivious to pick up on the tell.
You can be upset, but that scenario is likely to play out frequently, especially in home games.
Yes, big-mouth should be quiet there and him talking about details like that is a no-go. In a friendly game (i.e., not at a casino or "underground" raked game) there's not really that much you can do sadly. Tell him to knock it off (better off in a joking or humorous way) or tell the host to tell him to knock it off. In these types of games, that might or might not work though and it's up to you whether you still want to play.
It seems like you knew earlier in the hand that big mouth has made it known that he folded a flush. Why go ahead and try and bluff on the river when you knew SB was paying attention to big mouth? Your bluff isn't ordinarily a bad play on a board like that, but if you knew that big-mouth had mostly blown your chance to rep a flush, better off to dial it down there.
One thing I've learned about poker is only focus on the things you can control. You might not be able to get big-mouth to shut up, but you could've assessed the situation and used all the information to make the best decision.
so when loud mouth was blabbering on about how he just would have had nut flush, the guy who was in your spot didn't stew on it and go home and call the guy, he jumped across the table and punched him in the face and a brawl ensued.
Many of our games ended in brawls so we ended them.
and yes, we're all still friends, it's just how we grew up. I think we all fought at one point, and then usually had a beer and hugged it out (or maybe did that a day later if it was especially rough).
This. Anyone with any sort of knowledge of the game would definitely suspect that he folded some hand that ended up being a flush. I'd be super annoyed.
You lost two excellent opportunities to make back the chips you lost, but you shoved instead of trying to get callers.
You can't control idiots, but you can control yourself.
As for the hand ... you didn't say how many people were in the hand pre-flop. Was it 4? I assume you limped for $400 from the cut-off, the SB called and BB checked? I'm guessing at least one more person had limped, since you said after your $600 post-flop bet everyone folded except the SB ... assuming "everyone" is more than just the BB. So $1,600 in the pot?
Post-flop, it checks all the way around to you. Didn't you bet too weak with $600? An appropriate sized bet and that weak J is gone before he hits the 5.
he only had 3 blinds left in his stack. It's the only play IMO. He could be shoving with anything remotely playable at that point.
On another note, I use to enjoy the BBI games back in the day.
I didn't see how much he had left.
One time I was playing a $1K buy-in at Caesar's and we're early in the action and the guy to the left of me is facing a tough decision. Another player(not in the hand) points out that the guy who made the bet is shaking like he's holding quads. And he was. Quivering like I've never seen before. Player folds and the shaking guy claims he has a tic.
A few hands later, He's shaking again and turns over a monster hand. Everyone from that point forward knew the tell and he was out of the tourney fairly quickly.
No matter where you play, you're going to have table talk. Even with penalties, it will happen and there will be an impact
I get being upset, but it is a risk you take, especially in a home game. We can say it is a huge no-no, but frankly some people don't get that nor do they care.
Now I know better, but yeah, there were times where I would've flopped, turned or rivered a flush or a straight and I'd be so upset at myself to the point where I felt compelled to tell someone. I haven't played Poker in a couple of years, but if that situation happens now, I keep quiet and express my frustration after the hand is over.
Idiots also don't realize they are giving insight into their own play by sharing what they fold.
Curb Your Enthusiasm - ( New Window )
Part of the game is reading the reactions of those around the table as hand progresses to get tells. sighs, eyerolls, etc are all indications of what players were dealt. No excuse though to verbally say what you have before the hand is over.
I like playing against guys who chase flushes or who represent a flush. As long as I have top pair, I'm often calling that down, especially if the previous rounds betting aren't in line with landing a flush
I like playing against guys who chase flushes or who represent a flush. As long as I have top pair, I'm often calling that down, especially if the previous rounds betting aren't in line with landing a flush
+1 I think the bigger problem is you represented a hand on every street, which didn't make sense with how the cards came out. It was a bad river bluff while you were steaming. I think you might be overreacting a bit. Not that the guy was in the right, but I think there's more to your anger than just table talk.
800 on the turn
3000 on the river
Making that bet after two guys indicated they had flushes was crazy.
Maybe you do take it too seriously, but that's not really up to any of us to decide.
If you had the flush, his bad etiquette would have worked in your favor.
However, if I were in a casino, I'd definitely be bitching to the dealer.
It seems like you knew earlier in the hand that big mouth has made it known that he folded a flush. Why go ahead and try and bluff on the river when you knew SB was paying attention to big mouth? Your bluff isn't ordinarily a bad play on a board like that, but if you knew that big-mouth had mostly blown your chance to rep a flush, better off to dial it down there.
One thing I've learned about poker is only focus on the things you can control. You might not be able to get big-mouth to shut up, but you could've assessed the situation and used all the information to make the best decision.
I think this is fair criticism. It was pretty bang-bang in sense of timing. I knew right away that if I didn't complete the straight, I would need to bluff that hand to take that pot or else I'm losing it. I could've stopped as soon as they were talking and slowed it down, it was already a pretty crucial spot for me if I lost the hand, which I was going to do if I just checked, but of course bluffing off the majority of my stack made it that much harder on myself. In that situation, the possible broadway straight out there as well, I was hoping my opponent just wouldn't be willing to risk his chips. The straight wasn't really all that believable because if I had A-Q I'm probably raising pre-flop, and if I had Q-9 I probably play more aggressive on the flop and especially on the turn.
I do think talking about the intracacies of the hand is helpful, so in a way, losing this pot has really made me think harder about the story. Hopefully, ultimately, this makes me a better player.
What I'm kicking my self for now is not raising pre-flop with even just a Q-10. This is a bigger conversation about poker strategy, I think the point here is maybe get much more tighter on the number of hands I play, but when I do play, always raise pre-flop in position with limpers and blinds behind you. With a J-5 offsuit, if I triple barrel pre-flop, the SB is going away. The problem is that in our game, you do that twice and if you don't take either down, your tournament is pretty much over because we play a relatively short stacked game normally. You can get pot committed pretty quickly.
I'm seeing this dude today. I'm sure it will come up again.
It's a good way to reflect and hopefully improve your own game play.