and changed the way I perceived The Joker (Jack Nicholson); I'm not a comic book guy, so I can only come at it from the perspective of a guy who liked the Tim Burton Batman movie as an introduction to Batman.
Two months ago, Patton Oswalt posted this interesting opinion on his facebook page about The Joker's past
Quote:
Patton Oswalt
May 12 ·
I’ve always liked the theory that Heath Ledger’s Joker in Christopher Nolan’s DARK KNIGHT is a war veteran suffering PTSD. His referencing a “truckload of soldiers” getting blown up, his ease with military hardware, and his tactical ingenuity and precision planning all feel like an ex-Special Forces soldier returned stateside and dishing out payback. I love films that contain enough thought and shading to sustain post-screening theorizing like this.
But I just re-watched THE DARK KNIGHT, and another wrinkle came to mind about The Joker.
What if he’s not only ex-military, but ex-military intelligence?
Specifically — interrogation?
He seems to be very good at the kind of mind-fuckery that sustained, professional interrogation requires. His boast about how “I know the squealers” when he sees one. The way he adjusts his personality and methods depending on who he’s talking to, and knowing EXACTLY the reaction he’ll get: mocking Gamble’s manhood; invoking terror to Brian, the “false” Batman; teasing the policeman’s sense of loyalty to his fallen, fellow cops; digging into Gordon’s isolation; appealing to Harvey Dent’s hunger for “fairness.” He even conducts a “reverse interrogation” with Batman when he’s in the box at the police station — wanting to see how “far” Batman will go, trying to make him break his “one rule.” He constantly changes his backstory (and thus who he is). To Gamble and his henchmen, he’s an abused child (figuring that they were also the products of abuse and neglect). To Rachel, he’s a man mourning a tragic love — something she’s also wrestling with.
In the end, he ends up trying to mind-fuck an entire city — and the city calls his bluff. Or is that what he wanted all along? He plummets to his seeming death, laughing like a child. And when he’s rescued by Batman, the one individual he couldn’t manipulate or break, he’s blissful and relieved (and, visually, turned on his head). Even the language he uses when saying goodbye to Batman — describing their relationship as an “irresistible force meeting an immovable object” — is the kind of thing an interrogator would say, ruefully, about a fruitless session.
It didn’t matter how he got those scars, turns out.
(*As Cody Glive points out, in a comment below, The Joker also “directs” Batman’s interrogation of him, like an instructor with a newbie. “Never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy.” Can’t believe I missed that. Thanks!)
(And I ALSO just realized — The Joker uses The Russian’s dogs against him, and later sics them on Batman. Just like the pictures from Abu Ghraib of the prisoners being terrified by dogs)
Batman and DC were getting all the kudos and Marvel Studios was just getting off the ground with Iron Man. How the worm turns...
In retrospect, you can see the "grimdark" aspects of Dark Knight that ended up getting done to death in subsequent DC movies. Heath is great as the Joker of course, but I think the story and movie haven't dated as well. Lots of the now-patented Chris Nolan "I'm going to have my characters explain the plot and/or themes of the movie in every scene" bits.
Your Mom is named Martha too? Ugh. And the last Joker by Leto was just so over done.
I didn't find it overdone at all. The Joker is really a manic psychotic and much darker than even the Ledger version.
moments in the dark knight, and the writing/dialogue was retarded at points, but it was nowhere near as bad as the disaster that followed: the dark knight rises.. what a mess that was.. that all said, the whole nolan trilogy missed the mark for me (grew up a big batman/comic book kid so i perhaps have impossibly high standards for batman films).
Down all the characters in advance like Marvel has done. Katie Holmes should have been forced to be in the Dark Knight. Switching actresses was jarring and distracting.
Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
Cool little article/interview on what went into the makeup Â
and thinking it wasn’t as good as it was billed as.
TDK, good movie. Great movie? Not for me. So how’s that shitting on it? TDKR though I am shitting on and I stand by it. Nolan’s weakest film of his career, terrible CGI, and a jumbled mess of a story capped off by a villain who completely underwhelmed.
RE: RE: Geez, tough critics here, if TDK was such a bad movie, Â
Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Geez, tough critics here, if TDK was such a bad movie, Â
Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like). Link - ( New Window )
The Dark Knight trilogy was substantially better Â
Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like). Link - ( New Window )
Jesus dude, you are just as bad as the “critics” you are mocking. Nothing worse than someone who quotes “professionals” when trying to make a point about art. We ridicule sports “professionals” for their take on stats, games, etc but when it comes to something even more subjective such as movies, I’m now supposed to treat what Roger Evert says as gospel?
RE: The Dark Knight trilogy was substantially better Â
than any of the other DC movies. I finally saw Justice League the other day and it was absolutely awful.
Nolan added layers upon layers (in each of the movies) that just haven't been done to date since. I love the Marvel movies but they are all getting a bit formulaic and from a story telling standpoint they are pretty basic. They are still fun movies but TDK trilogy had a level of depth/maturity/intelligence we might not ever see again.
I think the new formula is to appeal to kids, but also funny enough that adults can have a good time too. TDK was NOT for kids.
RE: RE: The Dark Knight trilogy was substantially better Â
than any of the other DC movies. I finally saw Justice League the other day and it was absolutely awful.
Nolan added layers upon layers (in each of the movies) that just haven't been done to date since. I love the Marvel movies but they are all getting a bit formulaic and from a story telling standpoint they are pretty basic. They are still fun movies but TDK trilogy had a level of depth/maturity/intelligence we might not ever see again.
I think the new formula is to appeal to kids, but also funny enough that adults can have a good time too. TDK was NOT for kids.
I love the Marvel cinematic universe but you are right it is a completely format than TDK films. Marvel has done a great job of developing their characters with origin stories where DC rushed and just threw them together in Justice League. The DC universe if darker than Marvel which focuses on humor and emotions.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geez, tough critics here, if TDK was such a bad movie, Â
Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like). Link - ( New Window )
Jesus dude, you are just as bad as the “critics” you are mocking. Nothing worse than someone who quotes “professionals” when trying to make a point about art. We ridicule sports “professionals” for their take on stats, games, etc but when it comes to something even more subjective such as movies, I’m now supposed to treat what Roger Evert says as gospel?
I used to have a level of respect for you but now I realize you are just a complete moron. You shouldn't care about what Roger Ebert's opinion was, nor should anybody consider one man's opinion, but by posting a RT score you can determine what the consensus was for every person that reviews movies for a living on the planet therefore making it relevant to a topic on BBI on how well a movie was received. You are entitled to your opinions, BBI handle guy, but Ill look to other sources to validate my beliefs.... and if we are having a discussion an overall consensus is relevant IMO. But you are the same guy that believes deGrom's "unahappiness" will lower his trade level.
I think it's best we just stick to our own opinions from now on and not engage.
I paid to see it in the theater. I wanted to like it because I liked the preceding Batman movie.
I couldn't believe how poor the dialogue was, and how dumb the story was. The interactions between Batman and the Joker were so bad as to border on farce. And the big moral dilemma about using cell phones to see through walls? Ugh.
I get that this movie is viewed through the lens of "It's good for a comic book movie" because comic book movies are stupid, but that doesn't make The Dark Knight anything other than a bad movie. It plays out like the screenplay and dialogue were written by people that breathe through gills.
and I love the site. I just won’t use it to win an argument because it’s a collection of subjective ratings. It’s no different than arguing about a restaurant based on Yelp scores.
You also misquote me on deGrom and then stopped responding once I called you out on it. Then the entire thread called you out on other stuff. Feel free to not respond to me anymore, no sweat off my sack. But I’ll call bullsht out when I see it.
If you enjoyed TDKR, that’s great. But mocking people who didn’t like it by saying “everyone’s a critic” while linking to a site full of critics is a bit hypocritical. And by a bit I mean very.
I always hear everyone talk about how dark DC is. Granted I'm not a comic book guy, but I'm not sure I see it. Outside of the Batman stories, which other ones are dark?
and I love the site. I just won’t use it to win an argument because it’s a collection of subjective ratings. It’s no different than arguing about a restaurant based on Yelp scores.
You also misquote me on deGrom and then stopped responding once I called you out on it. Then the entire thread called you out on other stuff. Feel free to not respond to me anymore, no sweat off my sack. But I’ll call bullsht out when I see it.
If you enjoyed TDKR, that’s great. But mocking people who didn’t like it by saying “everyone’s a critic” while linking to a site full of critics is a bit hypocritical. And by a bit I mean very.
Did the deGrom news go away yet?
I stopped responding? You actually stopped responding the night of the conversation and responded the next day and I was nowhere near BBI the entire next day... I know... Hard to imagine. As for people calling me out? A couple people called me Bagdad or something and another wanted to know why. Yeah... riveting stuff. Reading the entire thread over I feel I handled myself pretty well in light of being attacked by 4-5 Yankee fans at once. deGrom has already "clarified" his statement today BTW, trying to say he "really wants to be a Met" but I told you in the thread it likely would remain news for roughly a week and it will.
Im not going to hijack this thread though over UCONN Â
though some parts of it have not held up so well. First things first though, Ledger's performance remains legendary and is by far the best part of the movie. All the best scenes in the movie involve him (opening scene bank robbery, disappearing pencil, escape from prison, etc).
That said, most of the flaws usually found in Nolan films are present here. The plot, especially at the end, is absolutely nonsensical. Cell phones, the ferry, bombs, the end really does not work.
Maggie Gyllenhall is just flat out annoying. She's a good actress but it did not work in this one and the switch in actresses is very distracting.
I remember thinking at the time, and it still was the case upon re-watching, Ledger almost overshadows the rest of the movie. He's so good that I got bored with every scene that he wasn't in.
It was such a spectacle at the time, and it was deserved. But there are flaws. However, as with most Nolan movies, I can look past those flaws and still appreciate the spectacle.
clearly the third best among the trilogy, and again an absolute mess of a plot. But I still enjoy Bane. The underground fight scene and speech is a great re-watch.
Begins is probably the best pure film, and surely the best performance by Bale. TDK is the most memorable, with an iconic performance. And there were enough good scenes in TDKR to keep me content. By 3rd film standards anyway, it's not so bad. Link - ( New Window )
and thinking it wasn’t as good as it was billed as.
TDK, good movie. Great movie? Not for me. So how’s that shitting on it? TDKR though I am shitting on and I stand by it. Nolan’s weakest film of his career, terrible CGI, and a jumbled mess of a story capped off by a villain who completely underwhelmed.
I guess I just came out of each Batman movie just sort of mesmerized. I just think the way Nolan builds up tension and angst, didn’t go overboard with the CGI, and the storytelling was outstanding. I’m not going to pretend like he told a perfect story, but for a comic book movie, I was glued to my seat thru all three.
And I too was a fan of Bane, thought he nailed it.
RE: Im not going to hijack this thread though over UCONN Â
with your usual condescending bullshit towards anyone who doesn’t share your opinion on something subjective. You come completely unhinged when someone thinks something you like, sucks. It’s comical, and you are known for just that on BBI.
Also, your quote below from the deGrom thread:
“Once again, I dont like the way they handled things and I dont think they have any leverage. This will blow over by tomorrow and there is literally noting deGrom can do about it but deGrom could have handled this better IMO.”
It didn’t blow over and won’t for a while. Are you ever wrong?
with your usual condescending bullshit towards anyone who doesn’t share your opinion on something subjective. You come completely unhinged when someone thinks something you like, sucks. It’s comical, and you are known for just that on BBI.
Also, your quote below from the deGrom thread:
“Once again, I dont like the way they handled things and I dont think they have any leverage. This will blow over by tomorrow and there is literally noting deGrom can do about it but deGrom could have handled this better IMO.”
It didn’t blow over and won’t for a while. Are you ever wrong?
Any rational person reading this thread can see the only person ranting or "unhinged" is you. Nobody was talking to you or even engaging with you. You came at me three times before I even responded as I was having a discussion with other posters. You are a bull in a china shop. A complete mess. Even worse. You are disingenuous and sloppy with your commentary and lie through your teeth.
This is your quote from the deGrom thread that I keep bringing up that you have denied ten times.
"Fiscally speaking he has zero leverage but that doesn’t always matter. His trade value also decreases the unhappier he is, also leverage."
I laughed about how you think somebody's unhappiness could decrease a players value and you still keep denying it.
As for the quote you just posted. I immediately clarified in my next statement that I was referring to the front office, not the media. But of course you know that... you just have no idea how to win any sort of discussion or argument without getting dirty.
Please just go back to hating Game of Thrones, Hating TDK, kicking your dog, or whatever else you do with your spare time. You are a waste of my time.
but 2 star players in other sports named Irving and Leonard got traded for pennies on the dollar the second they became unhappy.
Now do I think deGrom reaches that point? No. But it’s possible. You asked for an example and I gave you several, his happiness being one of them. You may not like that answer, but theres precedence of it in sports and 2 shining examples in the last calendar year alone.
I don’t hate GoT, I just don’t suck off every scene as the best in TV history. You know that, but it ruins your narrative so why bother owning up to it. I’m hard on the show because I expect better, the horror.
You are incredibly bothered by people not liking what you like. You come across as psychotic, unreasonable, and unhinged. You simply want to be right at all times and never own up to anything. I just showed you that you are the liar stating here that deGrom would blow over in a week, when I quoted you saying “by tomorrow”. Maybe you had a knee jerk reaction, but that’s exactly what you posted and haven’t owned up to it.
And lastly, you stated several times that DeGroms value will be just as high in a year. Then you back tracked after being called out on it by other posters. You are the one with thr nickname on this board and that’s because you are a psycho.
But we don’t disagree on everything. We share similar views on Star Wars, for example, so am I being a wannabe critic right along with you?
but 2 star players in other sports named Irving and Leonard got traded for pennies on the dollar the second they became unhappy.
Now do I think deGrom reaches that point? No. But it’s possible. You asked for an example and I gave you several, his happiness being one of them. You may not like that answer, but theres precedence of it in sports and 2 shining examples in the last calendar year alone.
I don’t hate GoT, I just don’t suck off every scene as the best in TV history. You know that, but it ruins your narrative so why bother owning up to it. I’m hard on the show because I expect better, the horror.
You are incredibly bothered by people not liking what you like. You come across as psychotic, unreasonable, and unhinged. You simply want to be right at all times and never own up to anything. I just showed you that you are the liar stating here that deGrom would blow over in a week, when I quoted you saying “by tomorrow”. Maybe you had a knee jerk reaction, but that’s exactly what you posted and haven’t owned up to it.
And lastly, you stated several times that DeGroms value will be just as high in a year. Then you back tracked after being called out on it by other posters. You are the one with thr nickname on this board and that’s because you are a psycho.
But we don’t disagree on everything. We share similar views on Star Wars, for example, so am I being a wannabe critic right along with you?
Oh that's rich. So now you are admitting you said it and are giving me examples of other players after you told me you never said it at all 3-4 times now that you've been called out (in other sports no less!!) Part of the problem discussing anything with you is you dont have the abstract capability to even make comparisons synonymously or logically. This is a perfect example. In football, players DO hold out. I said ten times theoretically if deGrom did hold out it would give him leverage, but that almost never happens in baseball, and would NEVER happen with deGrom so your point is moot... and quite frankly stupid. Another perfect example is in this very thread in a discussion about the RT score, which is combination of every professional writer's review on the planet. You tried to say that that would be no different than random people giving reviews about restaurants on Yelp. This is an awful comparison because the reviews are not being done by professionals. If there was some sort of app that had a raw score of reviews from only the top chefs and best in the industry than that would make sense. I honestly, dont even think you see it though.
I also never said deGrom's value would be as high in a year. I said theoretically it could be based on there being different players available, neds, and wants next year... but again... you know that. Just another example of you fighting dirty.
I could care less about being right but if you are going to engage with me and tell me Im wrong, Im going to stand my ground and explain my reasoning. Thats kinda what a forum is all about.
Now please acknowledge that you are sucking up a freaking batman page with this incessant nonsense and likely annoying the hell out of everyone else who could care less about your pissing contest. Just let it die. Like I said, we can both have our opinions without engaging going forward. No big deal.
I stated it was a reason of many, several times. You ignored the other reasons, of course, that's your MO. If deGrom is unhappy i'm not sure an unstable franchise like the Mets can properly handle it. Add in being a year older next year and him likely reaching his peak performance, its logical to assume that his unhappiness may make the Mets seek a trade. If he was happy and content, and never complained about his contract situation, its reasonable to assume that there would be no friction. Make sense?
I hope for your sake deGrom stays a Mets, pitching amazingly well, and does so for a long time. Anything short of that and it will be meltdown mode. You really don't handle adversity well.
As for this thread, still curious what was wrong with any of my comments. In sum they were:
Batman Begins was the best of the bunch, I really enjoyed it. Great story telling and introduction of a character.
TDK a good but very overrated movie.
TDKR was a mess, Nolan's worst movie by a mile, the CGI was miserable.
Add in that there is no consensus at all on this thread, it seems pretty split between the people that loved it and those who thought it was ok or bad, so I really don't know what you are getting at.
I remember when Get Out came out. Thy hype was insane. Amazing RT score of 99. I loved it, but many on BBI didn't. My response to that was that I get why some may not like it, it was very strange, kinda got a bit pretentious, but I gave it huge points for taking on a topic that is rarely seen in the genre and/or never done well. I thought if they left the original ending people would have enjoyed it more. I didn't attack posters who disagreed with my OPINION of a movie and I certainly didn't point to critics to prove my point.
I stated it was a reason of many, several times. You ignored the other reasons, of course, that's your MO. If deGrom is unhappy i'm not sure an unstable franchise like the Mets can properly handle it. Add in being a year older next year and him likely reaching his peak performance, its logical to assume that his unhappiness may make the Mets seek a trade. If he was happy and content, and never complained about his contract situation, its reasonable to assume that there would be no friction. Make sense?
I hope for your sake deGrom stays a Mets, pitching amazingly well, and does so for a long time. Anything short of that and it will be meltdown mode. You really don't handle adversity well.
As for this thread, still curious what was wrong with any of my comments. In sum they were:
Batman Begins was the best of the bunch, I really enjoyed it. Great story telling and introduction of a character.
TDK a good but very overrated movie.
TDKR was a mess, Nolan's worst movie by a mile, the CGI was miserable.
Add in that there is no consensus at all on this thread, it seems pretty split between the people that loved it and those who thought it was ok or bad, so I really don't know what you are getting at.
I remember when Get Out came out. Thy hype was insane. Amazing RT score of 99. I loved it, but many on BBI didn't. My response to that was that I get why some may not like it, it was very strange, kinda got a bit pretentious, but I gave it huge points for taking on a topic that is rarely seen in the genre and/or never done well. I thought if they left the original ending people would have enjoyed it more. I didn't attack posters who disagreed with my OPINION of a movie and I certainly didn't point to critics to prove my point.
This shit is subjective, get over it.
No. It doesn't makes sense. Your entire first paragraph doesn't address how him being unhappy lowers his value to other teams. More twisting and turning and BS from you but hey... at least you figured out a way to keep going with deGrom shit on this thread. You are embarrassing. As for deGrom getting traded... Ive said many times I am in favor of it.
I could care less about your opinion of the Batman movies or what the "consensus" was here. Nobody said you said anything wrong. Nobody was even talking to you. You are living in fairy tale land. I said I liked the third movie and you followed with it by telling me how much it was shit. I was talking to other posters. I did make a comment how BBI loves to shit on popular things... its often true but it was a fucking joke. Get a damn life.
his age and having a year less of being under cheaper control as reasons why his cost would go down. You know, logic. I spoke about unhappiness as a factor, not a focal point. If you honestly believe I think unhappy = automatic trade than I really don't know what to tell you. I've explained myself thoroughly, if you don't want to acknowledge that, its your prerogative.
Time to go kick my dog.
Nobody denied his cost would go down over time...lol Â
I simply said his return would still be massive through at least next year. History shows top players traded with at least a year of control or more bring back an absolute haul. The funny thing... I could care less about what you think about deGrom and his situation. You arent a Mets fan and you likely have very little understanding of the Mets organization or the situation with deGrom to begin with. I was simply pointing out how disingenuous you are and the tactics you will employ to try to win an argument is weak and ridiculous.
But more deGrom... more deGrom... Maybe when your done kicking your dog and you can come back and bring up more deGrom stuff again... deGrom... deGrom... deGrom... lol.
RE: I don't get all of the accolades for Ledger's performance. Â
my interest in that thread was to discuss the potential outcomes. In fact, my very first post on that thread was a cordial response to you, as were my subsequent posts until you flew off the rails. I'm not interested in being right, because you are right, i'm not a Mets can and I don't care how it plays out as its nothing but entertainment for me (as is all of sports).
But I liked the Dark Knight but I actually enjoyed the Dark Knight Rises and Batman Begins more. It felt like TDK lasted forever and I know Katie Holmes gets roasted for acting like a wooden board, but she was way hotter than Gyllenhal. That change in actress ruined that aspect of the story for me-I was actually interested in the Rachel-Bruce relationship coming out of Batman Begins and by the time they blew her up, I couldn’t care less.
Sounds silly to complain about in a Batman movie but changing the actress there basically eliminated the emotion (for me) in that entire part of the story and that was really a huge arc in the film.
But I liked the Dark Knight but I actually enjoyed the Dark Knight Rises and Batman Begins more. It felt like TDK lasted forever and I know Katie Holmes gets roasted for acting like a wooden board, but she was way hotter than Gyllenhal. That change in actress ruined that aspect of the story for me-I was actually interested in the Rachel-Bruce relationship coming out of Batman Begins and by the time they blew her up, I couldn’t care less.
Sounds silly to complain about in a Batman movie but changing the actress there basically eliminated the emotion (for me) in that entire part of the story and that was really a huge arc in the film.
I completely agree in regards to Rachel. It's the one thing that still bothers. I still loved TDK though.
Two months ago, Patton Oswalt posted this interesting opinion on his facebook page about The Joker's past
May 12 ·
I’ve always liked the theory that Heath Ledger’s Joker in Christopher Nolan’s DARK KNIGHT is a war veteran suffering PTSD. His referencing a “truckload of soldiers” getting blown up, his ease with military hardware, and his tactical ingenuity and precision planning all feel like an ex-Special Forces soldier returned stateside and dishing out payback. I love films that contain enough thought and shading to sustain post-screening theorizing like this.
But I just re-watched THE DARK KNIGHT, and another wrinkle came to mind about The Joker.
What if he’s not only ex-military, but ex-military intelligence?
Specifically — interrogation?
He seems to be very good at the kind of mind-fuckery that sustained, professional interrogation requires. His boast about how “I know the squealers” when he sees one. The way he adjusts his personality and methods depending on who he’s talking to, and knowing EXACTLY the reaction he’ll get: mocking Gamble’s manhood; invoking terror to Brian, the “false” Batman; teasing the policeman’s sense of loyalty to his fallen, fellow cops; digging into Gordon’s isolation; appealing to Harvey Dent’s hunger for “fairness.” He even conducts a “reverse interrogation” with Batman when he’s in the box at the police station — wanting to see how “far” Batman will go, trying to make him break his “one rule.” He constantly changes his backstory (and thus who he is). To Gamble and his henchmen, he’s an abused child (figuring that they were also the products of abuse and neglect). To Rachel, he’s a man mourning a tragic love — something she’s also wrestling with.
In the end, he ends up trying to mind-fuck an entire city — and the city calls his bluff. Or is that what he wanted all along? He plummets to his seeming death, laughing like a child. And when he’s rescued by Batman, the one individual he couldn’t manipulate or break, he’s blissful and relieved (and, visually, turned on his head). Even the language he uses when saying goodbye to Batman — describing their relationship as an “irresistible force meeting an immovable object” — is the kind of thing an interrogator would say, ruefully, about a fruitless session.
It didn’t matter how he got those scars, turns out.
(*As Cody Glive points out, in a comment below, The Joker also “directs” Batman’s interrogation of him, like an instructor with a newbie. “Never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy.” Can’t believe I missed that. Thanks!)
(And I ALSO just realized — The Joker uses The Russian’s dogs against him, and later sics them on Batman. Just like the pictures from Abu Ghraib of the prisoners being terrified by dogs)
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Batman and DC were getting all the kudos and Marvel Studios was just getting off the ground with Iron Man. How the worm turns...
In retrospect, you can see the "grimdark" aspects of Dark Knight that ended up getting done to death in subsequent DC movies. Heath is great as the Joker of course, but I think the story and movie haven't dated as well. Lots of the now-patented Chris Nolan "I'm going to have my characters explain the plot and/or themes of the movie in every scene" bits.
Your Mom is named Martha too? Ugh. And the last Joker by Leto was just so over done.
That's how the world works. It sucks.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
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TDK, good movie. Great movie? Not for me. So how’s that shitting on it? TDKR though I am shitting on and I stand by it. Nolan’s weakest film of his career, terrible CGI, and a jumbled mess of a story capped off by a villain who completely underwhelmed.
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Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
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In comment 14015572 barens said:
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Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like).
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In comment 14015610 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 14015572 barens said:
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Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like). Link - ( New Window )
Jesus dude, you are just as bad as the “critics” you are mocking. Nothing worse than someone who quotes “professionals” when trying to make a point about art. We ridicule sports “professionals” for their take on stats, games, etc but when it comes to something even more subjective such as movies, I’m now supposed to treat what Roger Evert says as gospel?
Nolan added layers upon layers (in each of the movies) that just haven't been done to date since. I love the Marvel movies but they are all getting a bit formulaic and from a story telling standpoint they are pretty basic. They are still fun movies but TDK trilogy had a level of depth/maturity/intelligence we might not ever see again.
I think the new formula is to appeal to kids, but also funny enough that adults can have a good time too. TDK was NOT for kids.
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than any of the other DC movies. I finally saw Justice League the other day and it was absolutely awful.
Nolan added layers upon layers (in each of the movies) that just haven't been done to date since. I love the Marvel movies but they are all getting a bit formulaic and from a story telling standpoint they are pretty basic. They are still fun movies but TDK trilogy had a level of depth/maturity/intelligence we might not ever see again.
I think the new formula is to appeal to kids, but also funny enough that adults can have a good time too. TDK was NOT for kids.
I love the Marvel cinematic universe but you are right it is a completely format than TDK films. Marvel has done a great job of developing their characters with origin stories where DC rushed and just threw them together in Justice League. The DC universe if darker than Marvel which focuses on humor and emotions.
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In comment 14015626 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14015610 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 14015572 barens said:
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Then the shit being put out today must be mind blowingly horrible.
I enjoy the Marvel movies, and they’ve progressively gotten better over time, but none of them hold a candle to the Batman trilogy under Nolan.
People can knit pick all they want, but I will always appreciate the limited amount of CGI Nolan put out there.
Didn’t you know it’s the popular thing to do to shit on every “big thing” show/movie here on BBI by its resident critics? Game of Thrones, Star Wars... you name it... it sucks!!
I didn't realize that there were so many hipsters on BBI. Personally I really enjoyed the trilogy. Sure there were some issues with the movies but overall it was very well done IMO.
Yeah it's ridiculous Jay. Meanwhile, professionals, who went to college for film, and review movies for a living for major publications are apparently all morons and continually get everything wrong. lol. The Dark Knight Rises (admittedly the weakest of the three) sits at 87% on RT, better than almost all of the Marvel movies (which I also like). Link - ( New Window )
Jesus dude, you are just as bad as the “critics” you are mocking. Nothing worse than someone who quotes “professionals” when trying to make a point about art. We ridicule sports “professionals” for their take on stats, games, etc but when it comes to something even more subjective such as movies, I’m now supposed to treat what Roger Evert says as gospel?
I used to have a level of respect for you but now I realize you are just a complete moron. You shouldn't care about what Roger Ebert's opinion was, nor should anybody consider one man's opinion, but by posting a RT score you can determine what the consensus was for every person that reviews movies for a living on the planet therefore making it relevant to a topic on BBI on how well a movie was received. You are entitled to your opinions, BBI handle guy, but Ill look to other sources to validate my beliefs.... and if we are having a discussion an overall consensus is relevant IMO. But you are the same guy that believes deGrom's "unahappiness" will lower his trade level.
I think it's best we just stick to our own opinions from now on and not engage.
I couldn't believe how poor the dialogue was, and how dumb the story was. The interactions between Batman and the Joker were so bad as to border on farce. And the big moral dilemma about using cell phones to see through walls? Ugh.
I get that this movie is viewed through the lens of "It's good for a comic book movie" because comic book movies are stupid, but that doesn't make The Dark Knight anything other than a bad movie. It plays out like the screenplay and dialogue were written by people that breathe through gills.
You also misquote me on deGrom and then stopped responding once I called you out on it. Then the entire thread called you out on other stuff. Feel free to not respond to me anymore, no sweat off my sack. But I’ll call bullsht out when I see it.
If you enjoyed TDKR, that’s great. But mocking people who didn’t like it by saying “everyone’s a critic” while linking to a site full of critics is a bit hypocritical. And by a bit I mean very.
Did the deGrom news go away yet?
You also misquote me on deGrom and then stopped responding once I called you out on it. Then the entire thread called you out on other stuff. Feel free to not respond to me anymore, no sweat off my sack. But I’ll call bullsht out when I see it.
If you enjoyed TDKR, that’s great. But mocking people who didn’t like it by saying “everyone’s a critic” while linking to a site full of critics is a bit hypocritical. And by a bit I mean very.
Did the deGrom news go away yet?
I stopped responding? You actually stopped responding the night of the conversation and responded the next day and I was nowhere near BBI the entire next day... I know... Hard to imagine. As for people calling me out? A couple people called me Bagdad or something and another wanted to know why. Yeah... riveting stuff. Reading the entire thread over I feel I handled myself pretty well in light of being attacked by 4-5 Yankee fans at once. deGrom has already "clarified" his statement today BTW, trying to say he "really wants to be a Met" but I told you in the thread it likely would remain news for roughly a week and it will.
That said, most of the flaws usually found in Nolan films are present here. The plot, especially at the end, is absolutely nonsensical. Cell phones, the ferry, bombs, the end really does not work.
Maggie Gyllenhall is just flat out annoying. She's a good actress but it did not work in this one and the switch in actresses is very distracting.
I remember thinking at the time, and it still was the case upon re-watching, Ledger almost overshadows the rest of the movie. He's so good that I got bored with every scene that he wasn't in.
It was such a spectacle at the time, and it was deserved. But there are flaws. However, as with most Nolan movies, I can look past those flaws and still appreciate the spectacle.
Begins is probably the best pure film, and surely the best performance by Bale. TDK is the most memorable, with an iconic performance. And there were enough good scenes in TDKR to keep me content. By 3rd film standards anyway, it's not so bad.
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TDK, good movie. Great movie? Not for me. So how’s that shitting on it? TDKR though I am shitting on and I stand by it. Nolan’s weakest film of his career, terrible CGI, and a jumbled mess of a story capped off by a villain who completely underwhelmed.
I guess I just came out of each Batman movie just sort of mesmerized. I just think the way Nolan builds up tension and angst, didn’t go overboard with the CGI, and the storytelling was outstanding. I’m not going to pretend like he told a perfect story, but for a comic book movie, I was glued to my seat thru all three.
And I too was a fan of Bane, thought he nailed it.
Kind of predictable that ZGiants98 would be sensitive regarding the Dark Knight being traded. Hiyoooooooooo.
Also, your quote below from the deGrom thread:
“Once again, I dont like the way they handled things and I dont think they have any leverage. This will blow over by tomorrow and there is literally noting deGrom can do about it but deGrom could have handled this better IMO.”
It didn’t blow over and won’t for a while. Are you ever wrong?
I agree, which is why Begins was my favorite of the three. Couldn’t ask for a better intro of Bruce Wayne, IMO.
Also, your quote below from the deGrom thread:
“Once again, I dont like the way they handled things and I dont think they have any leverage. This will blow over by tomorrow and there is literally noting deGrom can do about it but deGrom could have handled this better IMO.”
It didn’t blow over and won’t for a while. Are you ever wrong?
Any rational person reading this thread can see the only person ranting or "unhinged" is you. Nobody was talking to you or even engaging with you. You came at me three times before I even responded as I was having a discussion with other posters. You are a bull in a china shop. A complete mess. Even worse. You are disingenuous and sloppy with your commentary and lie through your teeth.
This is your quote from the deGrom thread that I keep bringing up that you have denied ten times.
"Fiscally speaking he has zero leverage but that doesn’t always matter. His trade value also decreases the unhappier he is, also leverage."
I laughed about how you think somebody's unhappiness could decrease a players value and you still keep denying it.
As for the quote you just posted. I immediately clarified in my next statement that I was referring to the front office, not the media. But of course you know that... you just have no idea how to win any sort of discussion or argument without getting dirty.
Please just go back to hating Game of Thrones, Hating TDK, kicking your dog, or whatever else you do with your spare time. You are a waste of my time.
Now do I think deGrom reaches that point? No. But it’s possible. You asked for an example and I gave you several, his happiness being one of them. You may not like that answer, but theres precedence of it in sports and 2 shining examples in the last calendar year alone.
I don’t hate GoT, I just don’t suck off every scene as the best in TV history. You know that, but it ruins your narrative so why bother owning up to it. I’m hard on the show because I expect better, the horror.
You are incredibly bothered by people not liking what you like. You come across as psychotic, unreasonable, and unhinged. You simply want to be right at all times and never own up to anything. I just showed you that you are the liar stating here that deGrom would blow over in a week, when I quoted you saying “by tomorrow”. Maybe you had a knee jerk reaction, but that’s exactly what you posted and haven’t owned up to it.
And lastly, you stated several times that DeGroms value will be just as high in a year. Then you back tracked after being called out on it by other posters. You are the one with thr nickname on this board and that’s because you are a psycho.
But we don’t disagree on everything. We share similar views on Star Wars, for example, so am I being a wannabe critic right along with you?
Now do I think deGrom reaches that point? No. But it’s possible. You asked for an example and I gave you several, his happiness being one of them. You may not like that answer, but theres precedence of it in sports and 2 shining examples in the last calendar year alone.
I don’t hate GoT, I just don’t suck off every scene as the best in TV history. You know that, but it ruins your narrative so why bother owning up to it. I’m hard on the show because I expect better, the horror.
You are incredibly bothered by people not liking what you like. You come across as psychotic, unreasonable, and unhinged. You simply want to be right at all times and never own up to anything. I just showed you that you are the liar stating here that deGrom would blow over in a week, when I quoted you saying “by tomorrow”. Maybe you had a knee jerk reaction, but that’s exactly what you posted and haven’t owned up to it.
And lastly, you stated several times that DeGroms value will be just as high in a year. Then you back tracked after being called out on it by other posters. You are the one with thr nickname on this board and that’s because you are a psycho.
But we don’t disagree on everything. We share similar views on Star Wars, for example, so am I being a wannabe critic right along with you?
Oh that's rich. So now you are admitting you said it and are giving me examples of other players after you told me you never said it at all 3-4 times now that you've been called out (in other sports no less!!) Part of the problem discussing anything with you is you dont have the abstract capability to even make comparisons synonymously or logically. This is a perfect example. In football, players DO hold out. I said ten times theoretically if deGrom did hold out it would give him leverage, but that almost never happens in baseball, and would NEVER happen with deGrom so your point is moot... and quite frankly stupid. Another perfect example is in this very thread in a discussion about the RT score, which is combination of every professional writer's review on the planet. You tried to say that that would be no different than random people giving reviews about restaurants on Yelp. This is an awful comparison because the reviews are not being done by professionals. If there was some sort of app that had a raw score of reviews from only the top chefs and best in the industry than that would make sense. I honestly, dont even think you see it though.
I also never said deGrom's value would be as high in a year. I said theoretically it could be based on there being different players available, neds, and wants next year... but again... you know that. Just another example of you fighting dirty.
I could care less about being right but if you are going to engage with me and tell me Im wrong, Im going to stand my ground and explain my reasoning. Thats kinda what a forum is all about.
Now please acknowledge that you are sucking up a freaking batman page with this incessant nonsense and likely annoying the hell out of everyone else who could care less about your pissing contest. Just let it die. Like I said, we can both have our opinions without engaging going forward. No big deal.
I hope for your sake deGrom stays a Mets, pitching amazingly well, and does so for a long time. Anything short of that and it will be meltdown mode. You really don't handle adversity well.
As for this thread, still curious what was wrong with any of my comments. In sum they were:
Batman Begins was the best of the bunch, I really enjoyed it. Great story telling and introduction of a character.
TDK a good but very overrated movie.
TDKR was a mess, Nolan's worst movie by a mile, the CGI was miserable.
Add in that there is no consensus at all on this thread, it seems pretty split between the people that loved it and those who thought it was ok or bad, so I really don't know what you are getting at.
I remember when Get Out came out. Thy hype was insane. Amazing RT score of 99. I loved it, but many on BBI didn't. My response to that was that I get why some may not like it, it was very strange, kinda got a bit pretentious, but I gave it huge points for taking on a topic that is rarely seen in the genre and/or never done well. I thought if they left the original ending people would have enjoyed it more. I didn't attack posters who disagreed with my OPINION of a movie and I certainly didn't point to critics to prove my point.
This shit is subjective, get over it.
I hope for your sake deGrom stays a Mets, pitching amazingly well, and does so for a long time. Anything short of that and it will be meltdown mode. You really don't handle adversity well.
As for this thread, still curious what was wrong with any of my comments. In sum they were:
Batman Begins was the best of the bunch, I really enjoyed it. Great story telling and introduction of a character.
TDK a good but very overrated movie.
TDKR was a mess, Nolan's worst movie by a mile, the CGI was miserable.
Add in that there is no consensus at all on this thread, it seems pretty split between the people that loved it and those who thought it was ok or bad, so I really don't know what you are getting at.
I remember when Get Out came out. Thy hype was insane. Amazing RT score of 99. I loved it, but many on BBI didn't. My response to that was that I get why some may not like it, it was very strange, kinda got a bit pretentious, but I gave it huge points for taking on a topic that is rarely seen in the genre and/or never done well. I thought if they left the original ending people would have enjoyed it more. I didn't attack posters who disagreed with my OPINION of a movie and I certainly didn't point to critics to prove my point.
This shit is subjective, get over it.
No. It doesn't makes sense. Your entire first paragraph doesn't address how him being unhappy lowers his value to other teams. More twisting and turning and BS from you but hey... at least you figured out a way to keep going with deGrom shit on this thread. You are embarrassing. As for deGrom getting traded... Ive said many times I am in favor of it.
I could care less about your opinion of the Batman movies or what the "consensus" was here. Nobody said you said anything wrong. Nobody was even talking to you. You are living in fairy tale land. I said I liked the third movie and you followed with it by telling me how much it was shit. I was talking to other posters. I did make a comment how BBI loves to shit on popular things... its often true but it was a fucking joke. Get a damn life.
Time to go kick my dog.
But more deGrom... more deGrom... Maybe when your done kicking your dog and you can come back and bring up more deGrom stuff again... deGrom... deGrom... deGrom... lol.
The movie was okay, and I thought his performance was good.
Honor respect...what do you believe in?
Sounds silly to complain about in a Batman movie but changing the actress there basically eliminated the emotion (for me) in that entire part of the story and that was really a huge arc in the film.
Sounds silly to complain about in a Batman movie but changing the actress there basically eliminated the emotion (for me) in that entire part of the story and that was really a huge arc in the film.
I completely agree in regards to Rachel. It's the one thing that still bothers. I still loved TDK though.
Interestingly enough, I just check on Rotten Tomatoes and The Last Jedi has a certified fresh score of 91% of critics liking the movie.