"If the New York Mets are just going to trade their most valuable major league assets for salary relief, rather than to try to improve the club, then it's time for MLB to step in and force the Wilpons to sell the team, just as the league did with Frank McCourt and the Dodgers. Trading Jeurys Familia for two fringe-at-best prospects is not how any team, regardless of payroll level, should operate in this environment. For a franchise that operates in the largest market in the league to do this -- and do so ten days before the trade deadline rather than waiting for someone to offer a legitimate return -- is embarrassing for the Mets and for Major League Baseball as a whole."
I dont particularly like Familia, and I dont think the yanks need to add to their bullpen...and I STILL wouldnt have hesitated to beat this package if I were the Yanks if for no other reason that to make it harder for the Astros/Sox to add bullpen help.
I have to imagine that the Astros, for one, could and would have beaten this package easily.
Sometimes it feels like some of the negative things that get said about the Mets are a little drastic / hyperbolic, but making this trade for this return 10 days before the deadline screams that there is actually something broken in the process.
Im not trying to salt any wounds here, Ill shut up if its coming across the wrong way. Im just a pretty big baseball fan and this is absurd and fascinating to me.
I think the media is just click baiting every possible negative Wilpon story to get the fan base all riled up. Yes, they are bad owners. But that doesn't mean every single decision is tainted by some sort of nonsensical decision making process. I never thought Familia was going to get a top return. He hasn't looked great this year at all, it's not a relievers market, it's a starters market, and if they are trying a new strategy of stocking their farm system through international signings, it's not a bad strategy and Minaya has used it effectively in the past. I believe he signed Familia, Flores, Lagares Montero, Robles each of whom have contributed at least something at the major league level. I don't know of any international player other than Rosario that has had an impact on the Mets during Sandy's era.
I think the media is just click baiting every possible negative Wilpon story to get the fan base all riled up. Yes, they are bad owners. But that doesn't mean every single decision is tainted by some sort of nonsensical decision making process. I never thought Familia was going to get a top return. He hasn't looked great this year at all, it's not a relievers market, it's a starters market, and if they are trying a new strategy of stocking their farm system through international signings, it's not a bad strategy and Minaya has used it effectively in the past. I believe he signed Familia, Flores, Lagares Montero, Robles each of whom have contributed at least something at the major league level. I don't know of any international player other than Rosario that has had an impact on the Mets during Sandy's era.
I agree with your point that IFA $ do have value, and more value than many fans will discuss.
But you can land a jumbo jet between a top return and this package.
The market is the market, and you cant make a team desperate for a Jeurys Familia if theyre not, but its incredibly hard to believe that 10 more days of pounding the pavement and playing the trade-deadline-seller game couldnt have extracted a decent bit more.
Ken Rosenthal or Joel Sherman quoted a Mets source saying they informed teams they were moving quickly because they didn't expect the market to change in 10 days. I really don't think Familia is that valuable. He isn't Andre Miller or Chapman. He isn't Familia 2015 or 2016 either.
Ken Rosenthal or Joel Sherman quoted a Mets source saying they informed teams they were moving quickly because they didn't expect the market to change in 10 days. I really don't think Familia is that valuable. He isn't Andre Miller or Chapman. He isn't Familia 2015 or 2016 either.
Thats just a ridiculous take, if true. What is the harm waiting 10 more days? How the hell do the Mets know the market wouldnt pick up? And how do they know that there wont be an injury or two around the league in the next two weeks, forcing teams to make a move that they otherwise wouldnt have?
I see no benefactor all to saying well, we are doing this immediately because nothing will change in the next 10 days. Nobody on the planet possibly knows that. So what was the rush?
Ken Rosenthal or Joel Sherman quoted a Mets source saying they informed teams they were moving quickly because they didn't expect the market to change in 10 days. I really don't think Familia is that valuable. He isn't Andre Miller or Chapman. He isn't Familia 2015 or 2016 either.
Thats just a ridiculous take, if true. What is the harm waiting 10 more days? How the hell do the Mets know the market wouldnt pick up? And how do they know that there wont be an injury or two around the league in the next two weeks, forcing teams to make a move that they otherwise wouldnt have?
I see no benefactor all to saying well, we are doing this immediately because nothing will change in the next 10 days. Nobody on the planet possibly knows that. So what was the rush?
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
What is the harm waiting 10 more days? How the hell do the Mets know the market wouldnt pick up? And how do they know that there wont be an injury or two around the league in the next two weeks
Yes but that "injury or two around the league" could've included Familia. Perhaps they were more worried about his market value going down than up in the next ten days. Also possible they were worried that their current best offer would disappear if they waited too long (i.e, A's trade for a different reliever or A's lose five in a row and decide not to make any trade at all).
@adamgfisher
4h4 hours ago
More
I was told that the market for Familia was pretty light. Obviously not taking back any money is a factor with regard to the return, but again, the market for rental players is not what it used to be and neither is Familia.
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
This is one of those times I have to respectfully disagree with you. QO are now dangerous because more free agents will accept the qualifying offer and then you are stuck with a high priced player for one year. Remember Neil Walker.
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
This is one of those times I have to respectfully disagree with you. QO are now dangerous because more free agents will accept the qualifying offer and then you are stuck with a high priced player for one year. Remember Neil Walker.
So what if he accepts? Worst case is Familia is your closer next year for $17.5M or whatever it is, for 1 year. Tradeable again next deadline, when maybe there is a real GM.
It's seems low risk to me in the case of Familia, assuming he finishes the season healthy.
$17.5 million on someone like Machado. We spent, between Familia, Ramos, Blevins, Swarzak almost $30 million on absolutely nothing. The Mets are taking the right approach loading up on bullpen arms. We already have 2 in lugo/gsellman that are decent. I would try to nab some lefty arms now. Between Bashlor, Callahan, Bautista, Sewald, Hanhold, Nogosek, Beck, Wahl, D.Smith, T.Peterson, and Rhame, someone has to emerge.
none of those bullpen arms projects to be as good as Familia and Gsellman and Lugo were starters
Familia would have made over $10M if he were arbitration eligible (vs a FA), I wouldn't sweat over $8M or so difference and if that ($8M) is what prevents the Mets from pursuing Machado (a pipe dream) then they have bigger problems.
said there was no market for Familia. I agree Familia has been great since around 2014. But he was not great this year and that's all that matters. I don't care what his numbers say, I don't trust him this year. His stuff is down a tad, I don't know why he no longer throws his splitter, and he has blown at least 4-5 saves. Anyway, I don't think it's worth arguing over. It's over and done with.
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
3m reasons why I agree with this post and the Mets org doesnt.
I'm sorry, but I trust other guys more than Adam Fisher
Ken Rosenthal
Verified account @Ken_Rosenthal
3h3 hours ago
At least one rival exec who was interested in Familia is upset the #Mets jumped on #Athletics offer 10 days before deadline without getting back to his club first. Another also found it curious NYM jumped so soon, saying, The intl money must have been real important to them.
@Ken_Rosenthal
3h3 hours ago
More Ken Rosenthal Retweeted Ken Rosenthal
However, another exec who wanted Familia says, Teams had plenty of time to jump in. Im sure after they agreed they told teams they couldnt get back in but no way a week ago did they say that. Per source, NYM told teams they were moving. Didnt feel waiting would help return.
Does anyone here value Jhoan Urena, Cecchini or David Thompson? Because all 3 have shown more at higher levels than the 3B they got and are similar in age.
How about Bautista or Jacob Rhame? Because it's the same story.
If we were trying to trade for someone, what kind of player would we estimate we'd get back for that assortment of crap?
As PJ said - we would gladly trade all of those players for an extra sandwich pick in an upcoming draft - which would be the worst case scenario in hanging on to Familia. That or having one of the best relievers in the game (currently 17th in fwar among all relievers) on the roster again next year at a reasonable price.
Maybe there's a grand plan to get enough bonus $ to sign this guy Victor Victor. But I'll believe this organization can pull something like that off when I see it. Anyone still giving them the benefit of the doubt on anything is really just asking to get kicked in the nuts.
1. Toffey is only in his second year, so he does not have to be put on the 40 man roster. Draws a lot of walks, which is what Mets look for a la Nimmo. Speculation that Mets plan to convert him to catcher.
2. Wahl is a guy who can pitch in the bullpen for the next six years. Struggles with command but has dominant numbers at AAA. You hope he turns out to be the next Heath Bell but at worst he should be a back of the pen guy, who is solid.
3. International Money is invaluable because this where you can strike it rich because MLB has artificially constricted the market in terms of dollars spent.
So, after some initial disappointment, this was actually a solid trade in very diminished market. Not amazing. But not awful either.
Which of the triumvirate are you because that is unadulterated hogwash. The fact is the Mets got less for Familia than Florida got for A.J. Ramos because they were concerned about offloading salary not building the farm system. If a Catcher was the target you make clear to Oakland that Murphy is required in any deal. There was enough interest that they didn't need to consent to trash now
Dude, I have been the biggest critic of Sandy "lol" Alderson and the Mets FO on here for YEARS.
When you and many others were part of the Sandy Fan Club. I called the Ramos trade ludicrous and awful AT THE TIME.
So, you can bash me for many things, but being overly supportive of Mets management is not one of them. I don't think this trade is awful because the market for rentals is diminished and I don't think Familia is valued as highly around the league as he is by Mets fans. Is it a very good trade? No. But it is about what you should expect with what the market has been. Plus, as with most trades, you have to see how it works out. Voicing some definitive opinion when a trade is made is foolish.
1. Toffey is only in his second year, so he does not have to be put on the 40 man roster. Draws a lot of walks, which is what Mets look for a la Nimmo. Speculation that Mets plan to convert him to catcher.
2. Wahl is a guy who can pitch in the bullpen for the next six years. Struggles with command but has dominant numbers at AAA. You hope he turns out to be the next Heath Bell but at worst he should be a back of the pen guy, who is solid.
3. International Money is invaluable because this where you can strike it rich because MLB has artificially constricted the market in terms of dollars spent.
So, after some initial disappointment, this was actually a solid trade in very diminished market. Not amazing. But not awful either.
Which of the triumvirate are you because that is unadulterated hogwash. The fact is the Mets got less for Familia than Florida got for A.J. Ramos because they were concerned about offloading salary not building the farm system. If a Catcher was the target you make clear to Oakland that Murphy is required in any deal. There was enough interest that they didn't need to consent to trash now
Dude, I have been the biggest critic of Sandy "lol" Alderson and the Mets FO on here for YEARS.
When you and many others were part of the Sandy Fan Club. I called the Ramos trade ludicrous and awful AT THE TIME.
So, you can bash me for many things, but being overly supportive of Mets management is not one of them. I don't think this trade is awful because the market for rentals is diminished and I don't think Familia is valued as highly around the league as he is by Mets fans. Is it a very good trade? No. But it is about what you should expect with what the market has been. Plus, as with most trades, you have to see how it works out. Voicing some definitive opinion when a trade is made is foolish.
If the market for rentals was so diminished, why did Baltimore end up with multiple prospects better than the best player we got? If the Cuban was also in the deal I could live with it, but this just reaks of trading to save money rather than acquire talent.
If the market for rentals was so diminished, why did Baltimore end up with multiple prospects better than the best player we got? If the Cuban was also in the deal I could live with it, but this just reaks of trading to save money rather than acquire talent.
Because Baltimore traded away one of the league's best hitters who plays a premium position.
Familia has a ridiculously better track record and longer period of being a consistently good reliever.
Hand has two years left on his contract, but the returns, even while I thought Hand's return was a little light, are still incongruous.
I think you answered your own point by mentioning how much time each player has left on their contracts. I agree that the return is a little light, but considering Familia is a 2 1/2 month rental, it's not terrible.
Familia has a ridiculously better track record and longer period of being a consistently good reliever.
Hand has two years left on his contract, but the returns, even while I thought Hand's return was a little light, are still incongruous.
I think you answered your own point by mentioning how much time each player has left on their contracts. I agree that the return is a little light, but considering Familia is a 2 1/2 month rental, it's not terrible.
it wasn't a question, it was a statement.
Even with 2 years left on his contract, Hand is not in the same class of reliever and has nowhere near the track record that Familia does.
the Marlins DFA'd Hand. He was picked up off waivers by SD.
Even with the contract disparity, I think the return for Familia was incongruous with the return for Hand.
in baseball over the past 3 seasons. The discrepancy in his years of control is big, but the return he brought back is light years. Mejia is higher ranked prospect right now than Frazier or Torres were when they were traded.
$15M left owed to Hand after this season isn't necessarily something I'd view as some huge positive.
I never said that it was, I was just pointing out that he has 3 years of control. If he is pitching well over the next 2 1/2 years then that $10 million dollar option is a no brainer. With that said due to the volatility of relievers the chances of him sustaining this level of play is not very good.
RE: Forget Hand - he brought back a unanimous top 30 prospect
in baseball over the past 3 seasons. The discrepancy in his years of control is big, but the return he brought back is light years. Mejia is higher ranked prospect right now than Frazier or Torres were when they were traded.
that's my point, even with the term difference left in contract the return is incongruous with the return for Familia.
Forget MLB top prospects, these guys were not even in the A's top 30 prospects, they were organizational fodder. possibly not in the A's top 50 prospects.
And it's not like the A's had a top 10 farm system.
Mets got fleeced, no other way around it.
RE: RE: Forget Hand - he brought back a unanimous top 30 prospect
in baseball over the past 3 seasons. The discrepancy in his years of control is big, but the return he brought back is light years. Mejia is higher ranked prospect right now than Frazier or Torres were when they were traded.
that's my point, even with the term difference left in contract the return is incongruous with the return for Familia.
Forget MLB top prospects, these guys were not even in the A's top 30 prospects, they were organizational fodder. possibly not in the A's top 50 prospects.
And it's not like the A's had a top 10 farm system.
Mets got fleeced, no other way around it.
Yup. The only hope is that the fallout is strong enough it pushes the wilponzis to bring in a real GM in the offseason. But I'll believe that when I see it.
I dont disagree with the conclusion that the Mets did badly here, but youre under-valuing the Hand contract a decent bit.
If you include the club option, three years remaining for a total of $24M for one of the 3-4 best LH RPs in the game, with closer experience, is a tremendous asset.
At 28 years old, if Hand were hitting the free agent market right now, I suspect hed get somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years, $65M.
I dont disagree with the conclusion that the Mets did badly here, but youre under-valuing the Hand contract a decent bit.
If you include the club option, three years remaining for a total of $24M for one of the 3-4 best LH RPs in the game, with closer experience, is a tremendous asset.
At 28 years old, if Hand were hitting the free agent market right now, I suspect hed get somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years, $65M.
Fair point, Hand has re-invented himself with his slider, but two years ago Hand was DFA'd. And no trade was worked out. he was claimed off waivers by SD - for nothing.
My view of relievers is that they're fungible to an extent, except for the truly elite.
I'd be willing to bet that Familia vs Hand (even with the money each gets - so factor in a new contract for Familia) Familia proves to be the better pitcher the next 5 years.
But Familia is probably looking at 4 years $60M or something in that realm, further highlighting the bargain on Hand.
(Also further highlighting that keeping Familia and making the QO would have been a better option than trading 10 days before the deadline for a bad return...we are most definitely on the same page there).
But Familia is probably looking at 4 years $60M or something in that realm, further highlighting the bargain on Hand.
(Also further highlighting that keeping Familia and making the QO would have been a better option than trading 10 days before the deadline for a bad return...we are most definitely on the same page there).
all fair. And if you accept that discrepancy the return IMO for Hand is STILL incongruous with the return for Familia.
Hand netted the Indians #1 prospect, and a top 5 - top 20 (depending on your source) overall MLB prospect.
Familia got zero top 30 prospects from the A's - let alone MLB top prospects and $1M of INTL pool money (for the record the 30th rated prospect this signing period got $1M - lower rated prospects may also have gotten that much).
I feel like Familia should have netted a better return, or if this was the best offer the Mets should have passed and offered the QO.
Drury isnt a AAA relief pitcher
Quote:
The Yanks might can get deGrom for Drury
Drury isnt a AAA relief pitcher
They could convert him. Or maybe try him at catcher
Keith Law
ESPN Senior Writer
"If the New York Mets are just going to trade their most valuable major league assets for salary relief, rather than to try to improve the club, then it's time for MLB to step in and force the Wilpons to sell the team, just as the league did with Frank McCourt and the Dodgers. Trading Jeurys Familia for two fringe-at-best prospects is not how any team, regardless of payroll level, should operate in this environment. For a franchise that operates in the largest market in the league to do this -- and do so ten days before the trade deadline rather than waiting for someone to offer a legitimate return -- is embarrassing for the Mets and for Major League Baseball as a whole."
I have to imagine that the Astros, for one, could and would have beaten this package easily.
Sometimes it feels like some of the negative things that get said about the Mets are a little drastic / hyperbolic, but making this trade for this return 10 days before the deadline screams that there is actually something broken in the process.
Im not trying to salt any wounds here, Ill shut up if its coming across the wrong way. Im just a pretty big baseball fan and this is absurd and fascinating to me.
I agree with your point that IFA $ do have value, and more value than many fans will discuss.
But you can land a jumbo jet between a top return and this package.
The market is the market, and you cant make a team desperate for a Jeurys Familia if theyre not, but its incredibly hard to believe that 10 more days of pounding the pavement and playing the trade-deadline-seller game couldnt have extracted a decent bit more.
Thats just a ridiculous take, if true. What is the harm waiting 10 more days? How the hell do the Mets know the market wouldnt pick up? And how do they know that there wont be an injury or two around the league in the next two weeks, forcing teams to make a move that they otherwise wouldnt have?
I see no benefactor all to saying well, we are doing this immediately because nothing will change in the next 10 days. Nobody on the planet possibly knows that. So what was the rush?
Quote:
Ken Rosenthal or Joel Sherman quoted a Mets source saying they informed teams they were moving quickly because they didn't expect the market to change in 10 days. I really don't think Familia is that valuable. He isn't Andre Miller or Chapman. He isn't Familia 2015 or 2016 either.
Thats just a ridiculous take, if true. What is the harm waiting 10 more days? How the hell do the Mets know the market wouldnt pick up? And how do they know that there wont be an injury or two around the league in the next two weeks, forcing teams to make a move that they otherwise wouldnt have?
I see no benefactor all to saying well, we are doing this immediately because nothing will change in the next 10 days. Nobody on the planet possibly knows that. So what was the rush?
Ugh. BENEFIT OF, not benefactor...
@adamgfisher
4h4 hours ago
More
I was told that the market for Familia was pretty light. Obviously not taking back any money is a factor with regard to the return, but again, the market for rental players is not what it used to be and neither is Familia.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
How do you know how long medicals took related to other trades? Maybe it was the exact same amount of time.
Quote:
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
This is one of those times I have to respectfully disagree with you. QO are now dangerous because more free agents will accept the qualifying offer and then you are stuck with a high priced player for one year. Remember Neil Walker.
Quote:
In comment 14018083 CMicks3110 said:
Quote:
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
This is one of those times I have to respectfully disagree with you. QO are now dangerous because more free agents will accept the qualifying offer and then you are stuck with a high priced player for one year. Remember Neil Walker.
So what if he accepts? Worst case is Familia is your closer next year for $17.5M or whatever it is, for 1 year. Tradeable again next deadline, when maybe there is a real GM.
It's seems low risk to me in the case of Familia, assuming he finishes the season healthy.
Unlike Walker.
none of those bullpen arms projects to be as good as Familia and Gsellman and Lugo were starters
Familia would have made over $10M if he were arbitration eligible (vs a FA), I wouldn't sweat over $8M or so difference and if that ($8M) is what prevents the Mets from pursuing Machado (a pipe dream) then they have bigger problems.
Quote:
that they had a similar situation last year and the offers never changed for addison reed who i consider a similar value as familia. They probably want to focus there energies more on cabrera and more imporantly wheeler who they can probably get significantly more for.
that is ridiculous. Jeurys Familia is one of the best closers in baseball over the past 5 years and one of the best relievers available at this deadline.
Mets FO sucks.
As I said before, they'd have been better off keeping him, offering the QO, and when he declined getting a sandwich pick or whatever they're called.
the two players sound like at best AAAA players and the INTL money to get the next Kenny Hernandez will be 5 years away minimum.
3m reasons why I agree with this post and the Mets org doesnt.
Ken Rosenthal
Verified account @Ken_Rosenthal
3h3 hours ago
At least one rival exec who was interested in Familia is upset the #Mets jumped on #Athletics offer 10 days before deadline without getting back to his club first. Another also found it curious NYM jumped so soon, saying, The intl money must have been real important to them.
Ken Rosenthal
Verified account
@Ken_Rosenthal
3h3 hours ago
More Ken Rosenthal Retweeted Ken Rosenthal
However, another exec who wanted Familia says, Teams had plenty of time to jump in. Im sure after they agreed they told teams they couldnt get back in but no way a week ago did they say that. Per source, NYM told teams they were moving. Didnt feel waiting would help return.
How about Bautista or Jacob Rhame? Because it's the same story.
If we were trying to trade for someone, what kind of player would we estimate we'd get back for that assortment of crap?
As PJ said - we would gladly trade all of those players for an extra sandwich pick in an upcoming draft - which would be the worst case scenario in hanging on to Familia. That or having one of the best relievers in the game (currently 17th in fwar among all relievers) on the roster again next year at a reasonable price.
Maybe there's a grand plan to get enough bonus $ to sign this guy Victor Victor. But I'll believe this organization can pull something like that off when I see it. Anyone still giving them the benefit of the doubt on anything is really just asking to get kicked in the nuts.
Quote:
1. Toffey is only in his second year, so he does not have to be put on the 40 man roster. Draws a lot of walks, which is what Mets look for a la Nimmo. Speculation that Mets plan to convert him to catcher.
2. Wahl is a guy who can pitch in the bullpen for the next six years. Struggles with command but has dominant numbers at AAA. You hope he turns out to be the next Heath Bell but at worst he should be a back of the pen guy, who is solid.
3. International Money is invaluable because this where you can strike it rich because MLB has artificially constricted the market in terms of dollars spent.
So, after some initial disappointment, this was actually a solid trade in very diminished market. Not amazing. But not awful either.
Which of the triumvirate are you because that is unadulterated hogwash. The fact is the Mets got less for Familia than Florida got for A.J. Ramos because they were concerned about offloading salary not building the farm system. If a Catcher was the target you make clear to Oakland that Murphy is required in any deal. There was enough interest that they didn't need to consent to trash now
Dude, I have been the biggest critic of Sandy "lol" Alderson and the Mets FO on here for YEARS.
When you and many others were part of the Sandy Fan Club. I called the Ramos trade ludicrous and awful AT THE TIME.
So, you can bash me for many things, but being overly supportive of Mets management is not one of them. I don't think this trade is awful because the market for rentals is diminished and I don't think Familia is valued as highly around the league as he is by Mets fans. Is it a very good trade? No. But it is about what you should expect with what the market has been. Plus, as with most trades, you have to see how it works out. Voicing some definitive opinion when a trade is made is foolish.
Sandy?
Quote:
In comment 14017990 Vanzetti said:
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1. Toffey is only in his second year, so he does not have to be put on the 40 man roster. Draws a lot of walks, which is what Mets look for a la Nimmo. Speculation that Mets plan to convert him to catcher.
2. Wahl is a guy who can pitch in the bullpen for the next six years. Struggles with command but has dominant numbers at AAA. You hope he turns out to be the next Heath Bell but at worst he should be a back of the pen guy, who is solid.
3. International Money is invaluable because this where you can strike it rich because MLB has artificially constricted the market in terms of dollars spent.
So, after some initial disappointment, this was actually a solid trade in very diminished market. Not amazing. But not awful either.
Which of the triumvirate are you because that is unadulterated hogwash. The fact is the Mets got less for Familia than Florida got for A.J. Ramos because they were concerned about offloading salary not building the farm system. If a Catcher was the target you make clear to Oakland that Murphy is required in any deal. There was enough interest that they didn't need to consent to trash now
Dude, I have been the biggest critic of Sandy "lol" Alderson and the Mets FO on here for YEARS.
When you and many others were part of the Sandy Fan Club. I called the Ramos trade ludicrous and awful AT THE TIME.
So, you can bash me for many things, but being overly supportive of Mets management is not one of them. I don't think this trade is awful because the market for rentals is diminished and I don't think Familia is valued as highly around the league as he is by Mets fans. Is it a very good trade? No. But it is about what you should expect with what the market has been. Plus, as with most trades, you have to see how it works out. Voicing some definitive opinion when a trade is made is foolish.
If the market for rentals was so diminished, why did Baltimore end up with multiple prospects better than the best player we got? If the Cuban was also in the deal I could live with it, but this just reaks of trading to save money rather than acquire talent.
If the market for rentals was so diminished, why did Baltimore end up with multiple prospects better than the best player we got? If the Cuban was also in the deal I could live with it, but this just reaks of trading to save money rather than acquire talent.
Because Baltimore traded away one of the league's best hitters who plays a premium position.
Familia has a ridiculously better track record and longer period of being a consistently good reliever.
Hand has two years left on his contract, but the returns, even while I thought Hand's return was a little light, are still incongruous.
Familia has a ridiculously better track record and longer period of being a consistently good reliever.
Hand has two years left on his contract, but the returns, even while I thought Hand's return was a little light, are still incongruous.
I think you answered your own point by mentioning how much time each player has left on their contracts. I agree that the return is a little light, but considering Familia is a 2 1/2 month rental, it's not terrible.
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is Brad Hand.
Familia has a ridiculously better track record and longer period of being a consistently good reliever.
Hand has two years left on his contract, but the returns, even while I thought Hand's return was a little light, are still incongruous.
I think you answered your own point by mentioning how much time each player has left on their contracts. I agree that the return is a little light, but considering Familia is a 2 1/2 month rental, it's not terrible.
it wasn't a question, it was a statement.
Even with 2 years left on his contract, Hand is not in the same class of reliever and has nowhere near the track record that Familia does.
the Marlins DFA'd Hand. He was picked up off waivers by SD.
Even with the contract disparity, I think the return for Familia was incongruous with the return for Hand.
For the Mets to bring back 2 players who don't even rate in their top 20 for a player having a better year than Herrera by most metrics is absurd.
$15M left owed to Hand after this season isn't necessarily something I'd view as some huge positive.
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the 3rd year is a team option for $10 million.
$15M left owed to Hand after this season isn't necessarily something I'd view as some huge positive.
I never said that it was, I was just pointing out that he has 3 years of control. If he is pitching well over the next 2 1/2 years then that $10 million dollar option is a no brainer. With that said due to the volatility of relievers the chances of him sustaining this level of play is not very good.
that's my point, even with the term difference left in contract the return is incongruous with the return for Familia.
Forget MLB top prospects, these guys were not even in the A's top 30 prospects, they were organizational fodder. possibly not in the A's top 50 prospects.
And it's not like the A's had a top 10 farm system.
Mets got fleeced, no other way around it.
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in baseball over the past 3 seasons. The discrepancy in his years of control is big, but the return he brought back is light years. Mejia is higher ranked prospect right now than Frazier or Torres were when they were traded.
that's my point, even with the term difference left in contract the return is incongruous with the return for Familia.
Forget MLB top prospects, these guys were not even in the A's top 30 prospects, they were organizational fodder. possibly not in the A's top 50 prospects.
And it's not like the A's had a top 10 farm system.
Mets got fleeced, no other way around it.
Yup. The only hope is that the fallout is strong enough it pushes the wilponzis to bring in a real GM in the offseason. But I'll believe that when I see it.
If you include the club option, three years remaining for a total of $24M for one of the 3-4 best LH RPs in the game, with closer experience, is a tremendous asset.
At 28 years old, if Hand were hitting the free agent market right now, I suspect hed get somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years, $65M.
If you include the club option, three years remaining for a total of $24M for one of the 3-4 best LH RPs in the game, with closer experience, is a tremendous asset.
At 28 years old, if Hand were hitting the free agent market right now, I suspect hed get somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years, $65M.
Fair point, Hand has re-invented himself with his slider, but two years ago Hand was DFA'd. And no trade was worked out. he was claimed off waivers by SD - for nothing.
My view of relievers is that they're fungible to an extent, except for the truly elite.
I'd be willing to bet that Familia vs Hand (even with the money each gets - so factor in a new contract for Familia) Familia proves to be the better pitcher the next 5 years.
(Also further highlighting that keeping Familia and making the QO would have been a better option than trading 10 days before the deadline for a bad return...we are most definitely on the same page there).
(Also further highlighting that keeping Familia and making the QO would have been a better option than trading 10 days before the deadline for a bad return...we are most definitely on the same page there).
all fair. And if you accept that discrepancy the return IMO for Hand is STILL incongruous with the return for Familia.
Hand netted the Indians #1 prospect, and a top 5 - top 20 (depending on your source) overall MLB prospect.
Familia got zero top 30 prospects from the A's - let alone MLB top prospects and $1M of INTL pool money (for the record the 30th rated prospect this signing period got $1M - lower rated prospects may also have gotten that much).
I feel like Familia should have netted a better return, or if this was the best offer the Mets should have passed and offered the QO.