The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
and that in order to maximize what we'll pay him, part of Odell's concession was to show up for camp with a smile on his face, go through the motions (they'll limit him in preseason) which would keep the media circus at bay. And then he's gonna get paid Yuge.
The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
sorry freudian slip, pre-season. I hope he never considers sitting out the post-season, but would love to get there.
I wouldn't, especially seeing what happened last year Â
In that I don't want him playing with or without a new contract. However he barely played last year and barely playing is enough to have a serious injury as we all saw.
There's also a big difference between it being a coaching decision and Odell telling them and the media I'm not playing a snap without a new contract. It then becomes a public relations issue in that it is now Odell calling the shots and I think it is important for the Giants brass to have the appearance of being in control of the situation.
The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
It is already guaranteed. It was guaranteed at the start of the league year with him on the roster. Being that he suffered the injury last year, it would have been guaranteed even if he was not a Giant. The 5th year option is guaranteed for injury.
When a team exercises the option, it becomes guaranteed for injury only. If the player is on the team’s roster at the start of the League Year in his option season, his salary becomes fully guaranteed for skill, cap and injury.
and that in order to maximize what we'll pay him, part of Odell's concession was to show up for camp with a smile on his face, go through the motions (they'll limit him in preseason) which would keep the media circus at bay. And then he's gonna get paid Yuge.
You either hold out of camp or you don't hold out of camp, you don't get to go to camp and say I'll do this but I won't do that. I have no idea what the plan is for him in terms of preseason games, but it's not his plan to make.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
You either hold out of camp or you don't hold out of camp, you don't get to go to camp and say I'll do this but I won't do that. I have no idea what the plan is for him in terms of preseason games, but it's not his plan to make.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
But then he could go public with the whole thing telling fans and the media that he's willing to practice but not play in preseason games without a new contract. And that would make things difficult from an Optics perspective for the front office. It would make it look like they've lost control of the situation.
You either hold out of camp or you don't hold out of camp, you don't get to go to camp and say I'll do this but I won't do that. I have no idea what the plan is for him in terms of preseason games, but it's not his plan to make.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
Only, of course, if the Giants choose to press those fines.
90-95% of the time, NFL teams don't actually fine their holdouts. Because why damage the business relationship unnecessarily.
You either hold out of camp or you don't hold out of camp, you don't get to go to camp and say I'll do this but I won't do that. I have no idea what the plan is for him in terms of preseason games, but it's not his plan to make.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
Only, of course, if the Giants choose to press those fines.
90-95% of the time, NFL teams don't actually fine their holdouts. Because why damage the business relationship unnecessarily.
They do fine their hold outs, but once a new contract is negotiated (or the player shows up without one) it's up to the team's discretion in terms of how much in fines they demand, all of it, some of it, or none of it. When Strahan held out, he paid a portion of the fines, but not all of it. He said the amount was significant (I think "painful" was the word he used), but didn't reveal the actual number.
If, as you say, 90-95% of the time teams didn't actually fine their holdouts, there is no deterrence and it would defeat the whole point of having fines and you would see a lot more players holding out. Ultimately, it becomes a point of leverage for the teams when it comes to negotiating the return of the player. I imagine the actual number comes down to how long the player held out and whether or not it extended into the season.
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
I have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't hold out. He's at camp. Again: you either hold out of camp or not hold out of camp, you don't get to come to camp and then tell the coaches that you'll do this but won't do that.
He could fake an injury in order to avoid fines for missing practice and preseason games (like Plaxico did in 2008), but short of that, you practice when the coaches tell you to practice and play when they tell you to play.
this year. It is not chump change. Odell will play as much as they let him. He wants to play. I doubt the Giants play him much. They have 3 openings at WR they need to see and people for Practice Squad they need to see.
I'd play him 1 series only. Maybe 2 the 2nd game and only against 1st team defense, no effin scrub wannabes.. All he needs is timing with Eli and learn the new terminology.
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
I have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't hold out. He's at camp. Again: you either hold out of camp or not hold out of camp, you don't get to come to camp and then tell the coaches that you'll do this but won't do that.
He could fake an injury in order to avoid fines for missing practice and preseason games (like Plaxico did in 2008), but short of that, you practice when the coaches tell you to practice and play when they tell you to play.
Ummm, right. Or he could tell them, im here practicing as a show of good faith but Im not risking another preseason injury so dont even think about putting me in the game until I have a new contract.
You act like there are these unbreakable rules when it comes to holding out.
Odell could very definitely go to the F.O. and say, I showed up and was a good soldier but I but I have a deadline and I am not risking my financial future in a meaningless preseason game. You keep saying he cant do that, it is either hold out or dont but what exactly is stopping him from doing exactly that?
Ummm, right. Or he could tell them, im here practicing as a show of good faith but Im not risking another preseason injury so dont even think about putting me in the game until I have a new contract.
You act like there are these unbreakable rules when it comes to holding out.
Odell could very definitely go to the F.O. and say, I showed up and was a good soldier but I but I have a deadline and I am not risking my financial future in a meaningless preseason game. You keep saying he cant do that, it is either hold out or dont but what exactly is stopping him from doing exactly that?
He could tell them whatever he wants and they could tell him to go fuck himself or they could come to an agreement as to what he will be and won't be participating in as far as training camp. It's possible there was some unpublicized agreement that we no nothing about. My point is that according to the CBA, he can be fined if the team chooses and those fines are especially large when it comes to preseason games. It's not as if he gets to demand it and the team has no recourse.
And getting them to not fine the player is always a part of the negotiations.
I guess they could tell him to "fuck himself" which is pretty meaningless because they cant make him play.
Whatever he would lose in fines is a pittance compared to what he would lose in a future contract if he played and had a serious injury before signing a new contract.
I guarantee if he refused to play his teammates would get it and I think fans and media would too.
We can pretend that Optics don't matter to the front office but they definitely do.
We can pretend that Optics don't matter to the front office but they definitely do.
I'm not pretending anything, it's all part of the equation, all part of the negotiations. My point was that it's not as simple as "what does OBJ want?" because the leverage is tilted in favor of management. Do they have all the leverage? No, and you point out some of the leverage that OBJ has (but $2M is not a pittance, even for OBJ, and that's the "potential" cost of him holding out of pre-season games).
p.s.--For all any of us know, management is more reluctant than OBJ is to put him in the line of fire. It's in everyone's interest for him to be healthy at the start of the season.
Odell doesn't need have anything to prove in preseason, it's the guys at the bottom of the depth chart that need the game reps. And please don't let him return kicks/punts for the love of god, unless it's the 4th quarter of a playoff game.
Once you've had a brush with career-altering injuries Â
He's in line to score a contract anywhere from 85-100m dollars right now as a healthy player. As other WRs have signed, we now have a ballpark for his value.
Whatever fines he may may incur are certainly being weighed against that kind of potential loss. When you consider that he makes a lot more money off the field than most players in his position, he's the special case where fines really aren't much of a deterrence.
A year ago John Mara all but promised they would give him a new deal Â
At this point they need to get it done and not give Odell a reason to feel he needs to hold out.
I'm sure the Giants are willing to make him the highest paid WR in football. The two (or three) possibilities that could be holding things up are:
1. How much more money is he demanding than that of the current highest paid WR?
2. How much guaranteed money does the contract include and what kind of off-the-field behavior and/or on-field behavior voids the guaranteed money?
could legally pay for an injury insurance contract, say $50M and have OBJ as the beneficiary, and start the big bucks contract in 2019 when they have more $ to pay him???
It just isnt worth it. That 5th year option should be used to buy both sides time to get a new deal in place. God forbid Odell sustains any type of injury, it will be used as leverage in negotiating his next deal
Unless you are an NFL owner...?
The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
sorry freudian slip, pre-season. I hope he never considers sitting out the post-season, but would love to get there.
There's also a big difference between it being a coaching decision and Odell telling them and the media I'm not playing a snap without a new contract. It then becomes a public relations issue in that it is now Odell calling the shots and I think it is important for the Giants brass to have the appearance of being in control of the situation.
Maybe not throw to him?
But yeah ... I could go with the "don't play him in pre-season" crowd, too. Easily.
Teddy KGB - ( New Window )
The only factor to me is about guarantees with the 5th year option.
does his salary become guaranteed on the first day of the regular season like other veterans? Just not sure how the 5th year option works in terms of guarantees. That would be the only way sitting out the post-season makes sense to me.
And if the contract with the 5th year option has $0 guarantees then absolutely I'd sit until it becomes guaranteed. If it is already guaranteed then makes no difference.
It is already guaranteed. It was guaranteed at the start of the league year with him on the roster. Being that he suffered the injury last year, it would have been guaranteed even if he was not a Giant. The 5th year option is guaranteed for injury.
Link - ( New Window )
Agreed
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
But then he could go public with the whole thing telling fans and the media that he's willing to practice but not play in preseason games without a new contract. And that would make things difficult from an Optics perspective for the front office. It would make it look like they've lost control of the situation.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
Only, of course, if the Giants choose to press those fines.
90-95% of the time, NFL teams don't actually fine their holdouts. Because why damage the business relationship unnecessarily.
Quote:
You either hold out of camp or you don't hold out of camp, you don't get to go to camp and say I'll do this but I won't do that. I have no idea what the plan is for him in terms of preseason games, but it's not his plan to make.
p.s.--the fine for missing a pre-season game (given his $8.5M salary) without an excuse/injury is roughly $500K, so it would cost him $2M to refuse to play in them.
Only, of course, if the Giants choose to press those fines.
90-95% of the time, NFL teams don't actually fine their holdouts. Because why damage the business relationship unnecessarily.
If, as you say, 90-95% of the time teams didn't actually fine their holdouts, there is no deterrence and it would defeat the whole point of having fines and you would see a lot more players holding out. Ultimately, it becomes a point of leverage for the teams when it comes to negotiating the return of the player. I imagine the actual number comes down to how long the player held out and whether or not it extended into the season.
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
He could fake an injury in order to avoid fines for missing practice and preseason games (like Plaxico did in 2008), but short of that, you practice when the coaches tell you to practice and play when they tell you to play.
I'd play him 1 series only. Maybe 2 the 2nd game and only against 1st team defense, no effin scrub wannabes.. All he needs is timing with Eli and learn the new terminology.
Quote:
The whole point of holding out is that it is his decision. If it wasnt the player's decision then holdouts wouldnt exist.
They may say, "if you refuse to play in preseason games then we will not allow you to practice either."
I have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't hold out. He's at camp. Again: you either hold out of camp or not hold out of camp, you don't get to come to camp and then tell the coaches that you'll do this but won't do that.
He could fake an injury in order to avoid fines for missing practice and preseason games (like Plaxico did in 2008), but short of that, you practice when the coaches tell you to practice and play when they tell you to play.
Ummm, right. Or he could tell them, im here practicing as a show of good faith but Im not risking another preseason injury so dont even think about putting me in the game until I have a new contract.
You act like there are these unbreakable rules when it comes to holding out.
Odell could very definitely go to the F.O. and say, I showed up and was a good soldier but I but I have a deadline and I am not risking my financial future in a meaningless preseason game. You keep saying he cant do that, it is either hold out or dont but what exactly is stopping him from doing exactly that?
Ummm, right. Or he could tell them, im here practicing as a show of good faith but Im not risking another preseason injury so dont even think about putting me in the game until I have a new contract.
You act like there are these unbreakable rules when it comes to holding out.
Odell could very definitely go to the F.O. and say, I showed up and was a good soldier but I but I have a deadline and I am not risking my financial future in a meaningless preseason game. You keep saying he cant do that, it is either hold out or dont but what exactly is stopping him from doing exactly that?
I guess they could tell him to "fuck himself" which is pretty meaningless because they cant make him play.
Whatever he would lose in fines is a pittance compared to what he would lose in a future contract if he played and had a serious injury before signing a new contract.
I guarantee if he refused to play his teammates would get it and I think fans and media would too.
We can pretend that Optics don't matter to the front office but they definitely do.
p.s.--For all any of us know, management is more reluctant than OBJ is to put him in the line of fire. It's in everyone's interest for him to be healthy at the start of the season.
He's in line to score a contract anywhere from 85-100m dollars right now as a healthy player. As other WRs have signed, we now have a ballpark for his value.
Whatever fines he may may incur are certainly being weighed against that kind of potential loss. When you consider that he makes a lot more money off the field than most players in his position, he's the special case where fines really aren't much of a deterrence.
1. How much more money is he demanding than that of the current highest paid WR?
2. How much guaranteed money does the contract include and what kind of off-the-field behavior and/or on-field behavior voids the guaranteed money?