Webb: "McAdoo planned to start me final 3 games last year"

basically, you are saying that the Giants can't build a winning squad with Eli because he is too old and cost prohibitive to do so.

And anybody that doesn't align with that, including management, doesn't have as good of an understanding of the situation?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying that I have an understanding and someone else doesn't.

I'm saying that what we are rooting for is irrelevant to any good discussion here. I'm saying that if we want to have good football conversations it's important to check what we're rooting for at the door.

Eli has made chicken shit out of chicken shit. The question I have been asking every year is: what quarterback is making chicken salad out of it, let alone coq au vin?

The only ones I could come up with were Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson and that is because they have exceptional scrambling ability.

I don't even think Brady would have looked good behind this line with this run game and carousel of WRs and TEs. I think back to that Chiefs game where the Chiefs D-line got instant pressure all game, he was terrible, and all the pundits said he was "done." Well, they fixed the line, gave him time to throw, Belichick put everyone in a position to succeed, and they were great the rest of the way.

But that pressure that Brady saw every play with that caused him to look like he had nothing left in the tank? That's what Eli has dealt with seemingly every game for the last several years, except with also a nonexistent run game.

Last year was an abomination of injuries. Even still, I don't know how to properly evaluate Eli when he has had zero time to throw against a defense that got pressure with four linemen and never concerned itself with getting beat on the ground.

In comment 14032483 Go Terps said:

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That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying that I have an understanding and someone else doesn't. I'm saying that what we are rooting for is irrelevant to any good discussion here. I'm saying that if we want to have good football conversations it's important to check what we're rooting for at the door.

Well, since we're all seemingly rooting for the same thing (hopefully the Giants winning), then I would think checking that at the door would be irrelevant to good discussion, because we're still all going to have different ideas of how the Giants get there, for instance QB vs. RB at #2 overall.

but differing opinions on how to get there are exactly how you create good discussions, even if they become abrasive I guess.

It's the namecalling, labeling, and such that degrades good discussion. I'm guilty of it from time to time, too.

In comment 14032339 Bill L said:

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if, despite little to no supporting evidence (taking into account the context of the team over the past couple seasons) he really is diminishing in skills. See another group of people who, if Eli is actually successful and top-notch, will be majorly pissed off.

I don't agree with this. I was heavily involved in these debates near the end of last season and into the offseason, siding with those that thought it was time to move on from Manning. Aside from maybe a couple people, we are not actively rooting for him to fail.

Also, to say there little to no supporting evidence of declining skills is not true. He had no running game and a terrible offensive line in 2014 and 2015 too, yet was far better than he was in 2016 and 2017. You can blame it entirely on McAdoo's scheme if you want, but there is at least some very real evidence.

I am not saying he can't succeed this year if the line holds and the running game is much improved, but to read comments like Eli will unquestionably be the starter for the next 2-3 years is the same thing as someone on the other side saying he is garbage and will be benched by week 3.

then watching a Giants game, seeing someone succeed or fail and then say to yourself "I was effing right! Joe Blow was effing wrong! Wait till I tell him on Monday!"

In comment 14031980 UConn4523 said:

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to make sure they assign blame to the correct person. I don’t care who’s fault any of it was. Hopefully the biggest problems are off the team. Mara getting more heat doesn’t actually do anything. What’s he going to do, sell the team out of embarrassment?

I love the Mara’s or the family ownership here. I just think Mara should have asserted himself more (or less?) back when the NYG PR was as bad as its ever been. I don’t want anyone drawn and quartered or held accountable I just don’t want that shit to ever happen again here. Hopefully John learned a lesson. And hopefully he never hires a guy based on horse crap nostalgia and or the candidate’s interview prowess.

Eli is a qb that needs SOME things to be right in the offense. He doesn’t need 99 Rams to make things work but he won’t be able to elevate chicken shit into chicken marsala. There are some Eli bashers and Eli defenders alike that don’t see this.

Eli will be the least of out problems this season. Just like he was the least of our problems last season. Just about every qb going would have gone down with the nyg good ship lollipop in 2017. Maybe a guy like Watson or Brady or Wilson or Rodgers would have helped the team win more games. Certainly possible, perhaps probable. But just about every qb going needs a structured and sound offense in order to thrive. That’s how the Nfl works. Mcadoo not only constructed and conducted a broken offense he never ever ever adjusted. Eli is a bit of a stiff qb that can’t hide a bad offense. It was a recipe for disaster.

Don’t sit here and ignore history. Every time the giants offense had at least some semblance of a running game, Eli delivered. Every. Single. Time! But now all of a sudden Eli is shot? Really? The giants coaching staff, GM and owner all are blinded by loyalty and love and refuse to see that Eli can’t play anymore ? These same scouts and coaches and GM they are obsessed with winning all don’t care about wins and losses they just want to appease John Mara? And Mara doesn’t care either is that it?

Fun take. It’s horse shit rooted in some grassy knoll bullshit but hey, whatever keeps you going I guess.

In comment 14032538 djm said:

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Don’t sit here and ignore history. Every time the giants offense had at least some semblance of a running game, Eli delivered. Every. Single. Time! But now all of a sudden Eli is shot? Really? The giants coaching staff, GM and owner all are blinded by loyalty and love and refuse to see that Eli can’t play anymore ? These same scouts and coaches and GM they are obsessed with winning all don’t care about wins and losses they just want to appease John Mara? And Mara doesn’t care either is that it? Fun take. It’s horse shit rooted in some grassy knoll bullshit but hey, whatever keeps you going I guess.

let's fact check that "every single time" opinion. The Giants had top 10 rushing attacks in 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010 and were middle of the pack in 2009. How many playoff wins did we have in those five years where we had a semblance of a running game? How did Eli look in his playoff appearances in 2005, 2006 and 2008 when he had peak Tiki and Jacobs/Bradshaw/Ward behind a solid offensive line?

why would you even ask about doing this exercise?? Is there a point made in trying to lay blame at peak Eli??

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How did Eli look in his playoff appearances in 2005, 2006 and 2008 when he had peak Tiki and Jacobs/Bradshaw/Ward behind a solid offensive line?

Eli had 2 SB's. One in the middle of that period and the other a few years later. In 2005 we won the division and trotted out 3 LB's that were literally on the street the week before. I was asked to play and politely declined to attend a sale on whitewall tires.

2006, Eli played decently and we lost a close game. The team was 8-8 and was in the bottom of the league in injuries. He didn't look bad in that game.

In 2008, that's an entire season of potential that was knee-capped. Literally.

Eli played terrible, but the offense after Plax was out wasn't good. The starting WR's were Hixon and Steve Smith.

so basically, in two games Eli looked bad, the team was missing key pieces and in the other game, he looked decent.

But again - why does this even have to be refuted?

In comment 14032557 Les in TO said:

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In comment 14032538 djm said: Quote: Don’t sit here and ignore history. Every time the giants offense had at least some semblance of a running game, Eli delivered. Every. Single. Time! But now all of a sudden Eli is shot? Really? The giants coaching staff, GM and owner all are blinded by loyalty and love and refuse to see that Eli can’t play anymore ? These same scouts and coaches and GM they are obsessed with winning all don’t care about wins and losses they just want to appease John Mara? And Mara doesn’t care either is that it? Fun take. It’s horse shit rooted in some grassy knoll bullshit but hey, whatever keeps you going I guess. let's fact check that "every single time" opinion. The Giants had top 10 rushing attacks in 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010 and were middle of the pack in 2009. How many playoff wins did we have in those five years where we had a semblance of a running game? How did Eli look in his playoff appearances in 2005, 2006 and 2008 when he had peak Tiki and Jacobs/Bradshaw/Ward behind a solid offensive line?

We made the playoffs 3 of those 4 years. And between some poor play, injuries, and some guys almost shooting their nuts off... the seasons didn’t end the way we wanted too.

But hey let’s remember those years instead of 07 and 11. It’s funny how you openly root against Eli at this point.

So it’s playoff wins or bust? Eli plays well or at least plays well enough to help the offense flourish if the running game is sound. This is a fact. Sometimes he’s played well even when the running game isn’t so sound. By the way he also led this team to two frigging super bowl titles. Do we ignore those seasons? Wtf.

You’re a tough critic. I’m sure you will be as forgiving when the next nyg qb comes along and struggles all the time rather than occasionally, like Eli has.

Nothing else matters. But he has won playoff games. More so than he lost as well!

And last time I checked if winning playoff games is important.. what’s more important than winning the SB?

In comment 14032566 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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why would you even ask about doing this exercise?? Is there a point made in trying to lay blame at peak Eli?? Quote: How did Eli look in his playoff appearances in 2005, 2006 and 2008 when he had peak Tiki and Jacobs/Bradshaw/Ward behind a solid offensive line? Eli had 2 SB's. One in the middle of that period and the other a few years later. In 2005 we won the division and trotted out 3 LB's that were literally on the street the week before. I was asked to play and politely declined to attend a sale on whitewall tires. 2006, Eli played decently and we lost a close game. The team was 8-8 and was in the bottom of the league in injuries. He didn't look bad in that game. In 2008, that's an entire season of potential that was knee-capped. Literally. Eli played terrible, but the offense after Plax was out wasn't good. The starting WR's were Hixon and Steve Smith. so basically, in two games Eli looked bad, the team was missing key pieces and in the other game, he looked decent. But again - why does this even have to be refuted?

djm stated that all Eli needs is a semblance of a running game and he delivers “every single time”. That absolute statement is false. In the 2005 playoff game the Giants were shutout. Last time I checked linebackers play defense, not offense and the injuries to the LBswere no excuse for laying a goose egg on offense. The Giants needed Eli to have a big game and keep the depleted defense off the field but he crapped the bed. In 2006 Eli played ok but despite Tiki having a massive game they only put up 20. In 2008 Eli played like crap despite having a potent running attack. So no, a running game does not mean Eli will deliver.

In comment 14032566 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I was asked to play and politely declined to attend a sale on whitewall tires.

you could say it was a leg thing, or a spiritual thing, or a psychological thing, or a heart attack.

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yet we made the playoffs 5-7 years and won two championships.

Not good or consistent enough for ol' Les.

He even cites the good offensive line play... We agree on one thing, Les: Good offensive line 2005-2011 equals 5 playoff appearances and two championships. 2012-2017 Bad offensive line equals one playoff appearance and no playoff wins.

not having LB's meant we didn't have the ball.

In the 2005 game to Carolina, we had 41 yards rushing on 13 attempts. We ran 31 total offensive plays.

By contrast, the Panthers ran the ball 45 times and held a 43 to 17 advantage in TOP!! They had 30% more rushing plays then we had total plays.

Exactly how can you claim the Giants had a running game that day?

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You can extract your pound of flesh all you want. And you can revel and dance when a new qb is playing for nyg. And then you will kill that qb for another decade or less. I’ve seen fans like you before. I’m sure you just loved phil Simms when he played. Not after he retired, but during his career...

In comment 14032612 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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not having LB's meant we didn't have the ball. In the 2005 game to Carolina, we had 41 yards rushing on 13 attempts. We ran 31 total offensive plays. By contrast, the Panthers ran the ball 45 times and held a 43 to 17 advantage in TOP!! They had 30% more rushing plays then we had total plays. Exactly how can you claim the Giants had a running game that day?

Doesn’t fit his narrative.

But he gives the giants a legit shot if the team is capable around him. If you think that’s an easy commodity to come by who am I to tell you you’re wrong. I disagree but maybe I’m the fool. All I know is I’ve been watching this team closely for over 35 years and can say with certainty that Eli is the best nyg qb ever. Fans that bash this guy all the time are nuts.

In comment 14032612 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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not having LB's meant we didn't have the ball. In the 2005 game to Carolina, we had 41 yards rushing on 13 attempts. We ran 31 total offensive plays. By contrast, the Panthers ran the ball 45 times and held a 43 to 17 advantage in TOP!! They had 30% more rushing plays then we had total plays. Exactly how can you claim the Giants had a running game that day?

when the giants did have the ball on offense, instead of giving their defense a breather by sustaining drives or narrowing the deficit, they did nothing. eli turned the ball over 4 times and threw for a measley 113 yards.

In comment 14032269 dep026 said:

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In comment 14032264 Jim in Forest Hills said: Quote: talks about when he watched film on Manning the past two years, he saw a guy that didn't want to pay the price anymore. I think he's referring to what we all saw, Eli kind of ducking after throws even when pressure wasn't there. I hope he has recovered from that. Hopefully some semblance of a running game and a healthy OBJ can bring him back. So less of a physical decline than a mental one. Is there a QB who wants to pay the price when they throw?more BSPN bulkshit from their new darling Louis Riddick. I am glad he was laughed out the door in his interview.

There's a pretty good example of what he's talking about in the 2011 playoff game at San Fran.

Didn't Eli lead a long, game tying drive with under 2 minutes to play, after which Jeff Garcia dinked and dunked down the field to let David Akers kick the game winner as time expired?

winning the Panthers game. It would be like throwing any individual player under the bus for barely crossing midfield in the '85 loss to the Bears:

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when the giants did have the ball on offense, instead of giving their defense a breather by sustaining drives or narrowing the deficit, they did nothing. eli turned the ball over 4 times and threw for a measley 113 yards

Eli played terribly. Three guys who probably never played another NFL game allowed the Panthers to have free reign in the middle of the field. The Panthers, again with gusto, had 30% more rushing attempts than we had total plays. Don't minimize the magnitude of that stat. We weren't winning that game if Aaron Rodgers played.

The Giants tied the score with 5 minutes left to play, on a 13 play, 80 yard TD drive including 3 third down conversions, including one on a series that started 1st and 30.

Five minutes remained in the game, and the offense never got the ball again. Garcia and Westbrook ran the clock all the way down to zero and Akers kicked the walkoff game winner.

the questions begs itself:

Why are we answering this type of question? What point are you trying to get at? That Eli has never lost a playoff game or something?

It is bizarre that a giants fan wants to point out playoff losses with the implied commentary that the QB ws the reason behind it.

In comment 14032638 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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winning the Panthers game. It would be like throwing any individual player under the bus for barely crossing midfield in the '85 loss to the Bears: Quote: when the giants did have the ball on offense, instead of giving their defense a breather by sustaining drives or narrowing the deficit, they did nothing. eli turned the ball over 4 times and threw for a measley 113 yards Eli played terribly. Three guys who probably never played another NFL game allowed the Panthers to have free reign in the middle of the field. The Panthers, again with gusto, had 30% more rushing attempts than we had total plays. Don't minimize the magnitude of that stat. We weren't winning that game if Aaron Rodgers played.

agree that we were likely not winning and would struggle on defense. but I and many others were surprised we lay down so easily and were shut out.

easily because we ran a total of 31 plays and had the ball for 17 minutes. Tiki was the only RB to touch the ball.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Panthers had more rushing plays than we had total plays.

That isn't laying down, it is being dominated by a team who didn't have an entire unit out from injury.

He had a bad game ! Move on ! Didn’t Eli completely redeem himself by enabling giants fans to sit down with Dallas and packer fans and feel like as actually belong in the same room with them?

When I play poker with 3 idiot dallas fans i don’t have to say a fucking word. That’s why i love Eli.

He the hell can a giants fan still focus any negative energy towards 2005??? Am I taking stupid pills?

2005 is a fun little season that led to the greatest moment in Nfl history. Get the hell over 23-0 already.

Jared Goff has had an eerily similar start to his career as Eli. He was a mess as a rookie then played very well in year two but got his ass kicked in the playoff game. I wonder if Les thinks Goff is hot garbage too. I’d take Goff in a heartbeat.

In comment 14032666 djm said:

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He the hell can a giants fan still focus any negative energy towards 2005??? Am I taking stupid pills? 2005 is a fun little season that led to the greatest moment in Nfl history. Get the hell over 23-0 already.

it goes beyond 2005, djm. I mentioned several other years where we had a top 10 running game and either missed the playoffs or were eliminated in the wild card, twice with absolutely awful performances by Eli (2005 and 2008). I hardly call that delivering when he had a running game every single time as you claimed. and it's why, this season, even with a high ceiling running back touched by the hand of God and investments in the offensive line, I'm far from convinced that we are going to have a winning record or advance beyond the first round of the playoffs.

I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points, and if not for a terrible shockey drop and a botched call by the officials, it was likely a victory and a score in the 40s.

Than O SBs and a few playoffs wins.

Ask dan Marino or Jim Kelly if they would give back a few playoff wins if it means a SB or 2.

what are you really arguing?

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I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points, and if not for a terrible shockey drop and a botched call by the officials, it was likely a victory and a score in the 40s.

Eli Manning has 2 SB MVP's. He delivered then. And you are using examples from 2005, 2006 and 2008 to say he didn't deliver? So what. Nobody is saying the guy is the best QB ever, even though great ones like Brady and Rodgers even have some clunker playoff games and losses in playoff games.

Eli's been part of 2 SB winners. Are the losses to show he isn't perfect? Who is actually saying that?

You aren't refuting any preconceived notions or arguments here. You are basically doing what you often do - entering a thread and calling people fanboys while pointing out Eli's negative play. And the question remains each time - Why?

In comment 14032685 Les in TO said:

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I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points.

How did Kerry Collins deliver in Super Bowl 35?

In comment 14032826 Mr. Bungle said:

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In comment 14032685 Les in TO said: Quote: I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points. How did Kerry Collins deliver in Super Bowl 35?

Ouch.

I've always said, Eli is a Rorschach test. You can see what you want to see, whether it's the clutch performances and moxie, or the inconsistency and non-playoff seasons. But if we're going by the criterion that Eli isn't good because he doesn't consistently deliver, well, OK. As FatMan said, unless you have Brady under center (and even he's not exempt from bad games), you can say the same about just about every other QB, which means that it's not a helpful yardstick.

Anyway, we're somehow conflating two arguments here: what's best at QB for the Giants moving forward (which is a valid debate) and the idea that Eli doesn't deserve the accolades his "fanboys" lavish on him. And for the latter, what's the point? To prove that a player on your favorite team isn't as accomplished as other fans think he is? To prove that certain fans can be a little bit irrational about their favorite players? Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Anyway, is it so unusual or horrific to be a steadfast fan of a player that has brought you great memories, even if you end up overrating his value? Don't see how that's any worse than over-emphasizing the times a player failed to deliver compared to when, you know, he did it. All the way. Twice.

2002.

Great. Want to go back on that season game by game and see how wonderful Kerry Collins truly was? Spoiler alert— he was the very embodiment of average. Tiki, shockey and toomer were brilliant that season save for a few too many tiki fumbles. Collins was a caretaker who hitched a ride. Good for him. He’s no Eli Manning.

What is it you're trying to achieve here?

In comment 14032864 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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What is it you're trying to achieve here?

A point. No one knows what it is yet though...

Terps -- great posts and solid perspective.

For me (not that anyone should really care), it's great to learn more about the game, bounce ideas, form perspectives, and take that knowledge into how I watch the game. Football is immensely more enjoyable for me because of BBI.

I learned when I was a kid and my "favorite" player Phil Simms got hurt and some dude I didn't even know who looked like Burt Reynolds to me took the team to the mountain top, that I rooted for the laundry not the player. 25 was just as exciting as any of the others.

As a middle aged guy, I hope I am wise enough to understand it's still the same game and same pleasure to enjoy the team winning, regardless of the characters in the laundry. I don't love knowing some of them are jerks, but it doesn't make (much) of a difference if the guy who scores is my "favorite" or an asshole 23-year-old I don't know much about.

The only thing I kind of cringe at during these discussions is when it turns into a pissing match of I was right you are wrong and I'm going to enjoy beating my chest because I essentially guessed the outcome. That's a weird take to me.

In comment 14032800 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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what are you really arguing? Quote: I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points, and if not for a terrible shockey drop and a botched call by the officials, it was likely a victory and a score in the 40s. Eli Manning has 2 SB MVP's. He delivered then. And you are using examples from 2005, 2006 and 2008 to say he didn't deliver? So what. Nobody is saying the guy is the best QB ever, even though great ones like Brady and Rodgers even have some clunker playoff games and losses in playoff games. Eli's been part of 2 SB winners. Are the losses to show he isn't perfect? Who is actually saying that? You aren't refuting any preconceived notions or arguments here. You are basically doing what you often do - entering a thread and calling people fanboys while pointing out Eli's negative play. And the question remains each time - Why?

why? Because when people make false absolute statements like Eli delivers when he has a semblance of a running game every single time, I feel the need to point out the strong evidence to the contrary. He has delivered some major duds, even with strong supporting casts.

In comment 14032849 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14032826 Mr. Bungle said: Quote: In comment 14032685 Les in TO said: Quote: I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points. How did Kerry Collins deliver in Super Bowl 35? Ouch.

See, that loss should burn you. But it doesn't, because you're an Eli fan above a Giants fan. And that's just as weird a dynamic as those who you seem to think are rooting against #10. It's actually really bizarre.

In comment 14032914 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14032849 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14032826 Mr. Bungle said: Quote: In comment 14032685 Les in TO said: Quote: I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points. How did Kerry Collins deliver in Super Bowl 35? Ouch. See, that loss should burn you. But it doesn't, because you're an Eli fan above a Giants fan. And that's just as weird a dynamic as those who you seem to think are rooting against #10. It's actually really bizarre.

Or....That loss and some really other terrible ones burned many of us for long time. Right up until Eli Manning erased it with an incredible playoff run ending in the most amazing thing I've ever watched as a sports fan. So yeah...am I an Eli Fanboy? You bet your ass I am. Better question is why aren't you?

In comment 14032914 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14032849 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14032826 Mr. Bungle said: Quote: In comment 14032685 Les in TO said: Quote: I don't expect a super bowl victory every season as the standard for whether or not a QB "delivered". in 2002, the Giants lost in the awful wild card game against san Francisco. but that was not due to Kerry Collins. he was excellent,leading the giants in putting up 38 points. How did Kerry Collins deliver in Super Bowl 35? Ouch. See, that loss should burn you. But it doesn't, because you're an Eli fan above a Giants fan. And that's just as weird a dynamic as those who you seem to think are rooting against #10. It's actually really bizarre.

You're god damned right that loss burned me. Are you kidding? It didn't because I'm an Eli fanboy? I didn't even know who Eli was when that loss happened. I can picture everything about that loss like yesterday, can you? I was just starting to date my now wife, and I made an ass of myself by smashing a bottle of champagne that we had bought earlier that day in case the Giants won against a brick wall outside her and her roommates apartment. I watched the 4th quarter by myself in her bedroom, drunk and angry. I jokingly (but seriously) boycotted Eddy's Ice Cream for a year because they had a Ravens Championship flavor.

And interestingly enough, I loved Kerry Collins! I was, I guess, a Kerry Collins fanboy by today's standards. I would have even been fine drafting Gallery (at the time) and passing on Eli... Can you imagine that?

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Especially a successful one.

including the participants.

Hoping Eli and Giants have a successful year...