If the Knicks cant find a taker for Joakim Noah, 33, the leagues 2014 defensive player of the year, or cant get him to agree to a buyout, which was a plan met with resistance in the past, the team likely will use the waive and stretch provision to dump the veteran in September, league sources confirmed Wednesday.
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@BobbyMarks42
Not sure I understand the rationale on why NYK should be in a rush to cut bait with Joakim Noah post Aug. 31. Waive/stretch option will be available next July to use if needed. This summer taught us that $$ expiring contracts with a protected first can be traded.
Thanks for the explanation!
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Theres no point in stretching until 9/1 or later. Doing it this month shaves cap money this year when they cant use it at the expense of future cap savings.
Hopefully Lance Thomas goes and maybe Hardaway
But i have seen too many rebuilds to matter.....
Let me know
And i suspect, it will need to wait for the GSW run to end
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@BobbyMarks42
Not sure I understand the rationale on why NYK should be in a rush to cut bait with Joakim Noah post Aug. 31. Waive/stretch option will be available next July to use if needed. This summer taught us that $$ expiring contracts with a protected first can be traded.
If the goal is to bring in 2 big money free agents they need to do more than just move Noah. If you stretch Noah it keeps the option available that you can take the $$ attached to a protected pick approach to get off of a contract like Hardaway if needed.
Why not make keep him on the bench until he agrees to give money back? And more importantly why not wait until the offseason to see if you actually need the cap space before stretching him? Stretching him in September 2018 has the same cap implications as doing it in July of 2019.
They are taking on a cap hit of 6 million in 2020 and 2021. Not a huge number but every dollar counts in the cap. Makes no sense. This was truly a disastrous signing for Phil Jackson.
Why not make keep him on the bench until he agrees to give money back? And more importantly why not wait until the offseason to see if you actually need the cap space before stretching him? Stretching him in September 2018 has the same cap implications as doing it in July of 2019.
They are taking on a cap hit of 6 million in 2020 and 2021. Not a huge number but every dollar counts in the cap. Makes no sense. This was truly a disastrous signing for Phil Jackson.
unless noah told them he will give some money back if they do it now?
so you are ok with using the 2019 first to trade noah?
this move saves them 12 million off of the cap
Kyrie and Butler Sounds great in theory, but its secondary to Durant. If you have a chance of just getting Durant or butler and Kyrie you go and get Durant.
Kyrie and Butler Sounds great in theory, but its secondary to Durant. If you have a chance of just getting Durant or butler and Kyrie you go and get Durant.
why do you need noah to do a sign and trade?
if you do not stretch noah you do not have max spaxe at all...with the release of noah knicks now have max space....
if knicks do sign and trade for butler it will most likely involve lee and hardaway
again that is incorrect, you need to stretch noah or trade noah to even get 1 max slot...
after that lee and hardaway is what you need to get rid of to get 2 so they would be the expirings for sign and trade
2010 plan was a flawed plan, this team at least has a young max player that players want to play with already on the roster
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no way in hell I'm trading one to move Noah. Those are the type of moves that got us in this hell. Walsh giving away Craw and Zebo for pennies and attaching a pick to move Jeffires. All for cap space so that the NBA stars except for Amare(who had no other max options) to laugh at us. Butler and Kyrie dying to come here? Yea I'll believe it when I see it. Not going down the 2010 road again. Clear out space, but keep the picks and assets. Build this thing the right way. trade a #1 in a "sign and trade" for Butler? or you friggen kidding me? what did the Lakers give up in a sign and trade for Lebron? What did the GSW give up for Durant? nada.
2010 plan was a flawed plan, this team at least has a young max player that players want to play with already on the roster
Absolutely we are in much more solid footing because we kept our #1's. I'm fine with looking towards free agency starting next summer, I'm just not moving heaven and earth to clear out space including giving away #1's for the mythical situation where an NBA star with multiple options actually wants to come here for the first time in decades...
Someone knows these numbers, but Noah is probabaly slightly more valuable as an expiring vs a stretch because of trading rules with the cap. And if he isnt tradeabale as an expiring with a pick then you can stretch before aug 31 next year right? No need to do it now.
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In comment 14033107 Stu11 said:
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no way in hell I'm trading one to move Noah. Those are the type of moves that got us in this hell. Walsh giving away Craw and Zebo for pennies and attaching a pick to move Jeffires. All for cap space so that the NBA stars except for Amare(who had no other max options) to laugh at us. Butler and Kyrie dying to come here? Yea I'll believe it when I see it. Not going down the 2010 road again. Clear out space, but keep the picks and assets. Build this thing the right way. trade a #1 in a "sign and trade" for Butler? or you friggen kidding me? what did the Lakers give up in a sign and trade for Lebron? What did the GSW give up for Durant? nada.
2010 plan was a flawed plan, this team at least has a young max player that players want to play with already on the roster
Absolutely we are in much more solid footing because we kept our #1's. I'm fine with looking towards free agency starting next summer, I'm just not moving heaven and earth to clear out space including giving away #1's for the mythical situation where an NBA star with multiple options actually wants to come here for the first time in decades...
agreed
Someone knows these numbers, but Noah is probabaly slightly more valuable as an expiring vs a stretch because of trading rules with the cap. And if he isnt tradeabale as an expiring with a pick then you can stretch before aug 31 next year right? No need to do it now.
you got that trade for lee? much rather trade lee agree with you there
and you are right hardaway would not be an expiring my mistake
Yes this is legal. Not saying they would want him, but Houston kept their MLE to target buy out guys. I would do this or exile him until he agrees to give something up.
This has guy has given zero to the Knicks for a ton of money. I dont understand doing him solid or just waiting to see if you need the cap space before doing this. Makes no sense to me.
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value then what Noah currently has. I say keep him and let him play the first few weeks of the season. If he shows anything, maybe he draws interest from other teams. Nobody is going to trade for that contract - but maybe a contender dips into their MLE for him over 1-2 years. So you buy him out for whatever he is owed less what he can get on the open market...and then stretch. Is that even legal?
Yes this is legal. Not saying they would want him, but Houston kept their MLE to target buy out guys. I would do this or exile him until he agrees to give something up.
This has guy has given zero to the Knicks for a ton of money. I dont understand doing him solid or just waiting to see if you need the cap space before doing this. Makes no sense to me.
could be a favor to the agent, the nbpa is threatening the knicks, or noah could of promised money back if they do this now....
or knicks just want to be done with it and know they are going to do it eventually anyway...
Kyrie is definitely talented, but has only truly shown it with Lebron and on a team with a system that made Isaiah Thomas and Terry Rozier look like super stars. Add in the knee problems and I personally wouldn't want the Knicks to do anything besides sign him outright in free agency, assuming they could get the space without losing any assets or stretching anybody.
I feel similar about Jimmy Butler. He's clearly a very good player, but is reported to have had locker room issues in both Chicago and Minnesota. In my opinion he isn't good enough to take this underdeveloped Knicks roster and bring them anywhere.
If the Knicks stretch Noah I think they will be repeating sins of the past. It's not as blatant, but they are still sacrificing long term stability for short term gains. Though I hope, based on the wording in the article, that this is just a possible option and something that they haven't already decided to do.
Kyrie and Butler might be huge mistakes
he had screws in his knee from his injury a few years ago that needed to be taken out and he thought he could wait until the off season but it started to feel aggravated so he took care of it...
his knee then got infected which ended his season...
it was not a new injury
No they aren't perfect and have injury history and a lot of wear on the tires especially Butler, but these are great players. It's a no brainer.
I just don't understand why you don't wait for a commitment before stretching Noah. The Knicks owe that guy nothing.
I admit that 6.5 mil doesn't seem like much, but the Knicks would be adding 2 extra years onto a mistake. Also, Ron Baker only makes 4.5 mil and many like to complain about that.
I personally believe that, unless KD or AD is available, the Knicks would have a better chance to win long term if they let the younger guys develop while the albatross contracts naturally fall off of the roster. Then they can dive head first into free agency with some talented young players and a clean slate.
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after it is done you wont even think about it
I admit that 6.5 mil doesn't seem like much, but the Knicks would be adding 2 extra years onto a mistake. Also, Ron Baker only makes 4.5 mil and many like to complain about that.
I personally believe that, unless KD or AD is available, the Knicks would have a better chance to win long term if they let the younger guys develop while the albatross contracts naturally fall off of the roster. Then they can dive head first into free agency with some talented young players and a clean slate.
if you can add irving and butler this off season why do you need to wait...
if no one decides to come then ok you wait until next off season, there really is no harm in creating cap space
No they aren't perfect and have injury history and a lot of wear on the tires especially Butler, but these are great players. It's a no brainer.
I just don't understand why you don't wait for a commitment before stretching Noah. The Knicks owe that guy nothing.
maybe through back channels they know? doubtful but really who knows
Beyond that, call me in the next few months if Timmy or Courtney are dealt.
But i have seen too many rebuilds to matter.....
Let me know
And i suspect, it will need to wait for the GSW run to end
I get your point but Ive never seen this kind of rebuild at MSG.
Hes the owner. Thanks for enlightening us all with your wisdom. Care to share anything new?
if you can add irving and butler this off season why do you need to wait...
if no one decides to come then ok you wait until next off season, there really is no harm in creating cap space
I struggle with how flippantly "just adding Kyrie and Butler" is thrown around in conversation. The Knicks haven't even been able to trade Lee in the past year and a half. I will be very surprised if they are able to clear cap space for one max contract and then advantageously trade for another.
I believe the safer and more realistic route is to build with draft picks and then sign players without having to trade anything. Granted, though, if they can swing both Kyrie and Butler for minimal assets it would be an interesting team, I just don't believe it will happen.
As for the "no harm" comment. It's not much, but there is clearly harm. They will be adding 6.5 mil against their cap for 2 extra years.
This is wildly inaccurate. Dolan is focused on his new Sphere venue to the exclusion of just about everything else. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Trade THJ if you need a second max spot, attach 2020 protected 1st rounder. No need to stress about a 2nd max spot until it becomes a reality.