Video of the 2004 draft with all 3 qbs is priceless

Because it worked out in the Giants favor doesn't equate to it not being objectively shitty.

If Barkley said through back channels -- the Giants have had 3 coaches in 4 years, were dreadful last year, have had several embarrassing public situations with how they've dealt with prominent players and coaches (how Coughlin was let go, how Manning was benched, how Macadoo and Reese were fired midseason) -- and that he didn't want to play for the current New York Giants that would be logical. And bratty and NYG fans would abhore him.

Acknowledging Manning did something that was both pragmatic and shitty isn't so hard or unloyal.

It worked out well for him - he won rings, he cemented his place in football history and made tons of money. It worked out for the Giants for largely the same reasons.

have every right to be pissed off at and hold a grudge against Eli. So if Barkley did that to NYG, sure I wouldnt like him.

That doesn't mean that he would have done anything unfair or outside of his power.

I also wouldn't expect fans of whatever team Barkley wound up with to hold the same grudge against him as apparently some idiotic Giants fans hold towards Eli 2 Super Bowl championships later.

Sure idiots would be upset if Barkley did that. Just like idiots were upset with Eli. Not sure what your point is.

To a functional reasonable adult, there should be nothing “shitty” about what Eli did. He exercized his rights & was willing to deal with the consequences, including sitting out a year and reentering the draft. Why you think that’s “shitty” is your problem. He made a career decision and had every right to do so, just like you and I.

is getting the reaction the thread starter wanted knowing his position on Eli.

And yet, Britt takes shit and gets called names for being an Eli defender. Un-fucking-believable.....

In comment 14033301 Keith said:

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the Giants. He was very clear in that. Eli Manning only said that he doesn't want to go to SD.

Semantics

coming into the NFL. He had gotten in some trouble in his early days at Ole Miss and was always living in the shadow of Archie/Peyton. If you ever saw the SEC Storied "Book of Manning", they go a little into this.

Archie was willing to take the heat and all the media scrutiny to take some pressure off of Eli. I mean, can you imagine how that might look today with a father of a player having press conferences prior to the draft?

In the end, it worked out for all and we should be damn glad Archie did what he did. As a poster mentioned above, the SD Chargers were considered a poorly run franchise at that time and Archie didn't want to have Eli go through what he did.

again if some Broncos fans seemingly disliked Elway?

Out for all parties except San Diego, who haven't won shit and lost their team to LA of all places. And people wonder why Eli avoided that NFL hell.

I think they've moved on. Unlike some on this thread.

In comment 14033363 figgy2989 said:

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Archie was willing to take the heat and all the media scrutiny to take some pressure off of Eli. I mean, can you imagine how that might look today with a father of a player having press conferences prior to the draft?

See Ball, LaVar. Didn't hurt Lonzo's draft placement much. ;-)

In comment 14033386 DieHard said:

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In comment 14033363 figgy2989 said: Quote: Archie was willing to take the heat and all the media scrutiny to take some pressure off of Eli. I mean, can you imagine how that might look today with a father of a player having press conferences prior to the draft? See Ball, LaVar. Didn't hurt Lonzo's draft placement much. ;-)

That is a good point. However, LaVar was doing it to further his own "brand". I think Archie was doing so as he knew what was best for his kid.

How many players have ever done what Eli has done? A couple ever? 9 times out of 10 a team picking top 5 isn't there from a fluke year. Hell, even the Giants are considered a fluke but have sucked every year but one since 2013 and made the playoffs once since 2011. Every top 5 pick has power. Almost every top 5 pick will go to a shitty situation. Almost no top 5 picks pulled what Eli did.

Giants fans are so protective of Eli. Not only is he an elite QB he has to be an ideal human being so that they can brag to their Steelers fans friends "yeah your QB won 2 SB rings but Eli won 2 SBs and he's not a douchebag" (and yes no matter what Ben is a much worse human being). It's as if he's their son and any insult on him is a personal insult. Bottom line it was a shitty thing to do regardless of how much power he has.

Yes, if they had done it to my team, I'd hate them - for obvious reasons.

But in a league where all rules skew in favor of the owners, why is it shitty of them to take advantage of a rule that says sitting out the draft will render them ineligible until the next year, where they'd be subject to the same draft rules all over again?

Obviously, this is very much in favor of the owners again - and a player has to either be in high demand or have significant resources to take this chance. For most players, this would be a non-starter.

If I worked my ass off from the time I was a little kid, and the guy I trusted most in the world told me going to San Diego would be a mistake and I should force my way away from them, you bet your ass I'd do exactly that. And I wouldn't give a rat's ass what San Diego or any other fans thought about me. My livelihood, my business - and if the rules give me an out, I'm taking them.

...that San Diego management/ownership was dysfunctional and he didn't want Eli anywhere near the place.

But the only explicit reference about the situation was from Leigh Steinberg who said it was all about getting endorsements in a major market (i.e., New York).

I sure as hell hope the latter wasn't the primary reason. That would suck.

Also, I never really appreciated the risk Accorsi took by taking Rivers! I always understood it to be that there was a little wink-wink going on between him and the Chargers. Unless Accorsi is lying, he refutes that 100%. He was just simply playing a strong hunch, knowing that Rivers was the Chargers' #2 QB.

and it doesn't change Eli's right to do what he did.

It also doesn't change some fan's right to consider it any way they want.

In general I think it's usually a bad look for a player to publicly refuse to play somewhere. Whether it's Elway, Eli, or Eric Lindros. If possible it should be handled privately - it would probably benefit the player and the team they don't want to play for a lot more.

But I don't begrudge any of them for doing it and as others have said Eli's decision certainly worked out for the Giants and their fans. Same with Elway and the Broncos/fans.

For Lindros it worked out better for Quebec/Colorado.
But I also see how some fans can be put off by an athlete having that view.

In comment 14033394 jcn56 said:

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Yes, if they had done it to my team, I'd hate them - for obvious reasons. But in a league where all rules skew in favor of the owners, why is it shitty of them to take advantage of a rule that says sitting out the draft will render them ineligible until the next year, where they'd be subject to the same draft rules all over again? Obviously, this is very much in favor of the owners again - and a player has to either be in high demand or have significant resources to take this chance. For most players, this would be a non-starter. If I worked my ass off from the time I was a little kid, and the guy I trusted most in the world told me going to San Diego would be a mistake and I should force my way away from them, you bet your ass I'd do exactly that. And I wouldn't give a rat's ass what San Diego or any other fans thought about me. My livelihood, my business - and if the rules give me an out, I'm taking them.

Well there's a reason the draft is the way it is. Especially in the NFL, the system is set up to help teams like the 03 Chargers become competitive again. Maybe not a great example since they did anyway. Besides, there are certain rules that are unfairly skewed towards ownership. But in the end it's not like these guys will be working for minimum wage. This "woe are the players" narrative seems silly in light of that.

a particular team is willing to sit out a year an re-enter as Eli was, then there is really no logical argument for calling that player spoiled or a brat.

As a draft entrant, you have 2 options you can control. Play for whatever team that picks you or sit out a year. That's the system.

Crying for weeks after Eli led us to two SB wins.

In comment 14033429 Chris684 said:

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a particular team is willing to sit out a year an re-enter as Eli was, then there is really no logical argument for calling that player spoiled or a brat. As a draft entrant, you have 2 options you can control. Play for whatever team that picks you or sit out a year. That's the system.

Are they actually willing to sit out a year or are they more likely bluffing and rightly assuming that a team doesn't want to lose their #1 overall pick for nothing?

ended up playing for the Yankees.

Went to Oneonta, where I saw him play in a minor league game where he threw out a guy tagging up at 3rd from the warning track!

He probably wasn't completely bluffing, but he also had a lot of baseball talent.

By the way, Eli and Elway had one commonality. Fathers who knew a lot of people in NFL circles and who used that information wisely.

In comment 14033368 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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again if some Broncos fans seemingly disliked Elway?

You're conflating disliking the outcome and disliking the action.

I can dislike what Manning did, and I can very much like the outcome. And I can certainly, objectively view the action as not good for the league in the long-term. I'm sure there are decent thinking Broncos fans who are capable of the same.

Participation from college players in an orderly amateur draft has been at the heart of the success and parity of the league. If that falls apart -- that's not good for the NFL.

at all:

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You're conflating disliking the outcome and disliking the action.

I'm saying that a team's fans that were jilted are surely going to dislike the move and the player, while the team he goes to the opposite will hold true.

Or at least should hold true.

Colts fans disliked Elway, Chargers fans dislike Eli. The rest of team's fans are basically ambivolent.

But you have that special quality of being objective.....

Can someone tell me the moments where all the non-Eli people look like big jerks? I haven't seen any yet.

Drew Brees was still in San Diego and healthy at the time these guys were drafted.

That alone would make me be hesitant to get drafted by SD, and if Brees doesn’t hurt his shoulder in ‘05 does Rivers ever play a meaningful down for the Chargers?

In comment 14033455 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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at all: Quote: You're conflating disliking the outcome and disliking the action. I'm saying that a team's fans that were jilted are surely going to dislike the move and the player, while the team he goes to the opposite will hold true. Or at least should hold true. Colts fans disliked Elway, Chargers fans dislike Eli. The rest of team's fans are basically ambivolent. But you have that special quality of being objective.....

It's a killer quality - all the girls love it.

As far as other fans -- I'd posit there are a fair share of fans outside of San Diego and NYG that think Manning refusing to play for a team was lame.

If they had not, the NY pick would likely have been Big Ben. Would the Giants have won 2 SBs with Ben at the helm? The Steelers have consistently had dominant defenses and good OLs during Ben's tenure there. Would Ben have fared as well given what the Giants had during those same years?

the reason why in an effort to not cause trouble for the Chargers beyond simply stating he chose not to be there and holding firm on it.

This was after Archie made it known that he was both surprised and disappointed the Chargers took the situation public.

Eli went through all the motions on draft day, held up the jersey and made the best of a shitty situation so as not to hurt the league his detractors are/were so worried about.

Of course his life and career was put first, but the Mannings handled that pretty much like they handle all things, with class.

I think the draft is a horseshit system to begin with. I am surprised more players don't do the same thing Elway/Eli had the balls to do.

If I were Baker Mayfield there is no fucking way I go to Cleveland.

If, say, Barkley had refused to come here I'd think two things:

1. What's he seeing that's wrong with the Giants that makes him not want to be here

2. I'm glad we aren't investing in a guy that doesn't want to be here

It always surprises me the extent to which fans let their personal fandom for the team interfere with their judgement of reality.

In comment 14033264 djm said:

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Oh please. If you have the clout or draft day stature you can do whatever the hell you want to do. Teams don’t HAVE to draft you. If you’re a fringe talent and try to flex some draft day muscle you’re likely going to sink. If you’re an Eli Manning and don’t want to play somewhere in particular you can exercise whatever methods needed to avoid that destination. If it blows up in your face oh well that’s the risk you take. Eli did what he felt was right. How does that entail acting like a soiled brat?

Because Eli, like everyone who has been drafted, had proved NOTHING as a pro. That's the arrogance. So he - like Elway - was throwing a wrench in the system because The Arch convinced him he couldn't succeed in San Diego. That's some real class and values.

Where was that with Peyton? The Colts were still owned by the hideous Irsay family. I don't recall Archie and Peyton saying they wouldn't go to San Diego in 1998 if the Colts chose Leaf. Spanos was still the owner. Were the Mannings that high on Kevin Gilbride as a HC? Nope - Peyton just wanted to go the league, start, and eventually be the man...

The Tale of Two Mannings.

Here's an idea - get into the league, show real production, get to the second contract, and then enjoy the freedom of free agency.

That's not reality. It's a business transaction from day 1. Going into the draft, Eli (and every other draftee ever) owed the league nothing. He had proved something - he had talent making him worthy of a high draft pick.

This notion that a player that isn't being paid by the league owes the league something is ridiculous. The very concept of the draft is stupid.

That's been a real staple of the personality of the guy we've watched here for nearly 15 years.

What planet do some of you live on?

and really don't see much evidence of "jerk" here, aside from a few instances in which people looked like jock archetypes.

Eli didn't do anything that wasn't allowed under the CBA. The stipulation is there for anyone that wants to see it: a drafted player is free to sit out a year and re-enter the following draft.

The stipulation is almost never used because the agents have no financial motivation to suggest it to their players as an alternative. It's all part of the hideous relationship the NFL has with the NCAA. How many pro careers never got off the ground because a player thought he had no recourse but to go to the dysfunctional city that picked him?

Fuck that. Anything that gives the players - especially those coming out of college - more power is a good thing.

to say he doesn't want to play somewhere, then I don't blame them for exercising it.

When I came out of school, there were certain places I didn't want to work because of their corporate reputation and the way they ran things. Even though I hadn't proven anything in the real world, I still would have refused to work at those places. The main difference was that I had leverage in that there were a number of other opportunities where I could choose to work instead.

In the NFL, despite being much more valuable commodities coming out of school than I was, the high majority of draft entrants do not have any leverage. There isn't a comparable league they could go to, and they don't come from money to just sit out. So the majority of the time, the team that drafts them holds them over a barrel.

Eli came from money and could afford to sit out and not play football until the Chargers realized that they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they didn't trade him for value.

In comment 14033239 jestersdead said:

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and people were livid with the Chargers and had hopes of Eli changing the franchise. Brees was not the player he is now and the stadium was half empty. Multiple times home games were blacked out on local TV due to lack of attendance. Crazy to think those 3 draft selections resulted in 4 QBs being future Hall of Fame inductees (Brees)

I think the Chargers really were so screwed up back then that they could not get an offense rolling even with Brees. Did they have Norv Turner as their OC?

openly admits he has held the draft day events against eli. Actually posting "I'll never forgive him for it".

I really think he holds the draft day as more indicative of Eli than the rest of his career and the 2 SB's.

The disdain he holds for so many. Arrogant Eli. Jints Central. The silver spooned Mara.

Just yet one more piece of evidence to wonder exactly why he follows this team.

and threatens retirement for attention is far more admirable than a guy who forced a dysfunctional organization to trade him for a ransom and has been nearly a model citizen since.

In comment 14033534 bw in dc said:

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Because Eli, like everyone who has been drafted, had proved NOTHING as a pro. That's the arrogance.

So you think that a player should dedicate himself to the sport for years, sometimes choosing your high school, always choosing your college and then get stuck in a dead end situation in the pros?

There are a lot of shit franchises or situations which will send your career tumbling into the depths of hell. It is the difference sometimes between having a successful career or being a career backup. San Diego was not a good spot to be in back in 2004.

Watch what happens to the top QBs who were drafted high this year. Cleveland, Buffalo and the Jets. Great spots for a QB LOL

In comment 14033537 Go Terps said:

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That's not reality. It's a business transaction from day 1. Going into the draft, Eli (and every other draftee ever) owed the league nothing. He had proved something - he had talent making him worthy of a high draft pick. This notion that a player that isn't being paid by the league owes the league something is ridiculous. The very concept of the draft is stupid.

But the draft system has been in place for over 70 years - for better or worse. There has to be order and stability somewhere. I get that you are drawn to anarchy and upheaval - seems to be your nature - but the NFL would be in total chaos without it.

If the draft order was good enough for Peyton, then it should have been good enough for Eli, The Arch, and Condon.

It's also interesting that your arguments seem to be to detract from Eli to prop up Peyton.

Why was following his Dad at Ole Miss good enough for Eli but not Peyton?

The answer is because Peyton and Eli were obviously brought up as individuals without pressure from their parents who otherwise totally supported them.

It's actually quite normal when you think about it.

But the system includes a rule that Eli identified and used. He didn't try to reinvent the wheel or buck the system. Beyond that, there is no "Eli should do this or that". What did Eli owe San Diego? Nothing.

I'm not into anarchy. I just don't accept a shitty system on the basis that it's existed for 70 years.

Eli's not a dock for what he did. He's smart. And from a personality standpoint I'll take him over his brother every time. I don't remember Eli being carried to a Super Bowl by his defense and then using that as an opportunity to turn the event into a commercial for shitty pizza and shittier beer. In what should have been the defining cap to one of the best careers in NFL history Peyton Manning decided to once again be a corporate douchebag.

Salary caps punish teams for success.

for what he did.
SD is a train weck of an organization. Anybody who was paying attention and who was able to would exert whatever leverage they had to avoid going there. The fact that only a tiny handful of players can effect their draft destination doesn't reflect negatively on those few who are good/lucky enough to impose their will on the system. Everybody should absolutely do whatever necessary to give themselves the best chance to succeed.

In comment 14033544 Go Terps said:

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Eli didn't do anything that wasn't allowed under the CBA. The stipulation is there for anyone that wants to see it: a drafted player is free to sit out a year and re-enter the following draft. The stipulation is almost never used because the agents have no financial motivation to suggest it to their players as an alternative. It's all part of the hideous relationship the NFL has with the NCAA. How many pro careers never got off the ground because a player thought he had no recourse but to go to the dysfunctional city that picked him? Fuck that. Anything that gives the players - especially those coming out of college - more power is a good thing.

Ok so let's blow up the whole draft so that we see more Cleveland Browns and for longer. That's great for the league.

Has it ever occurred to you that Eli's (and Archie's) opinion of San Diego may have changed from early April 1998 to early April 2004.

When HS baseball players are drafted and decide to go to college instead, are they lacking in class and values?

In comment 14033615 Go Terps said:

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But the system includes a rule that Eli identified and used. He didn't try to reinvent the wheel or buck the system. Beyond that, there is no "Eli should do this or that". What did Eli owe San Diego? Nothing. I'm not into anarchy. I just don't accept a shitty system on the basis that it's existed for 70 years. Eli's not a dock for what he did. He's smart. And from a personality standpoint I'll take him over his brother every time. I don't remember Eli being carried to a Super Bowl by his defense and then using that as an opportunity to turn the event into a commercial for shitty pizza and shittier beer. In what should have been the defining cap to one of the best careers in NFL history Peyton Manning decided to once again be a corporate douchebag.

What the hell does Peyton being a "corporate douchebag" have to do with anything? Nothing to do with what he was as a player. And because the NFL is a business players can disregard the draft but if you take endorsement opportunities you're a corporate douchebag, ok.

.

In comment 14033724 sober297 said:

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.

Osi

Who disregarded the draft? Eli certainly didn't. He played by the rules.