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Can someone help me reconcile the Saquon criticism

BestFeature : 8/10/2018 7:22 pm
This goes to a handful of people complaining that SB's other 3 (usually they add 1 to help their point) went for 4 yards. Same people were talking about all offseason how SB won't be able to get 3 or 4 yards and will try to get 40 every time. Now 2 of the 3 carries went for 3 or 4 yards and these same people are complaining that he didn't go for 40 every time. Do people just say anything that fits their agenda without trying to be consistent?

Sorry, I will delete this if it's duplicate.
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This is how it is going to be with Barkley this year  
Jay on the Island : 8/10/2018 7:26 pm : link
You have the immense hype of Barkley mixed with people who wanted a QB instead. They are looking for any excuse to criticize Barkley so that they could say "I told you so." There are even some supposed Giants fans that would rather see Barkley be a bust and be proven right than to see him be an MVP type talent and be wrong.
Temper tantrum, basically.  
Britt in VA : 8/10/2018 7:27 pm : link
.
Because people are petty assholes  
Anakim : 8/10/2018 7:27 pm : link
.
Average yards is a bogus stat... I'm much more interested in median  
baadbill : 8/10/2018 7:32 pm : link
yards per carry... take two different theoretical game stats:

1. RB goes 100 yards on first play from scrimmage and then zero yards for 19 next carries, averaging 5 yards per play.

2. RB has 20 carries each exactly 5 yards per play.

Both backs average 5 yards a carry - but the respective runners' impact on the game couldn't be more different.

The "worry" I read about Saquon before the draft is that he his game stats are closer to example 1 style runner rather than example 2.

PS: I have no idea whether the concern is valid.
Youre top pick  
Sneakers O'toole : 8/10/2018 7:33 pm : link
breaks a 40 yard run on his first ever pro carry and you're not happy, you probably suck at life
the concern around what type of back he is  
hassan : 8/10/2018 7:37 pm : link
gaining yards more consistently is real, but last night sample size is not nearly enough. it is legitimate to wonder if a consistent thumper like a fournette is more valuable but fortunately we will learn a lot about saquon this year.
and yes  
hassan : 8/10/2018 7:38 pm : link
some people should just enjoy the great run he made last night.
RE: Average yards is a bogus stat... I'm much more interested in median  
BestFeature : 8/10/2018 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14035779 baadbill said:
Quote:
yards per carry... take two different theoretical game stats:

1. RB goes 100 yards on first play from scrimmage and then zero yards for 19 next carries, averaging 5 yards per play.

2. RB has 20 carries each exactly 5 yards per play.

Both backs average 5 yards a carry - but the respective runners' impact on the game couldn't be more different.

The "worry" I read about Saquon before the draft is that he his game stats are closer to example 1 style runner rather than example 2.

PS: I have no idea whether the concern is valid.


I agree with you, but scenario 1 is still better than being bottled up on that first plays and having 0 yards for the game. You want a guy that when the other team has a great game plan to stop him and has great players that he's still a threat to break one. I remember in 2008 or so we played Adrian Peterson and we stopped him the whole game and then he took one to the house for like 80. I was puffing my chest out, but in the end that's what great RBs do. There's never been one great RB that didn't have a poor game but it's nice to have an RB that even during a poor game can break one huge run. OBJ is the same thing as a WR. He's had plenty of games where outside of one big play his stats weren't amazing (the 2015 Pats game is coming to mind). Also, I don't think that was the case yesterday with Barkley he didn't seem to have anywhere to go and 3 routine runs is not nearly enough of a sample size to judge. Some people want to say that 1 run isn't enough to say he's great but the best RBs in NFL history have gone for 4 yards total on 3 successive runs. A select few RBs could have done even once what Barkley did on his 39 yarder.
RE: the concern around what type of back he is  
BestFeature : 8/10/2018 7:45 pm : link
In comment 14035784 hassan said:
Quote:
gaining yards more consistently is real, but last night sample size is not nearly enough. it is legitimate to wonder if a consistent thumper like a fournette is more valuable but fortunately we will learn a lot about saquon this year.


But the concern is that Barkley will lose yards instead of getting 3 or 4 yards. Two of the three runs he gained those 3 or 4 yards. Most thumpers have A LOT of those types of runs.
It’s actually a legitimate concern  
BigBlue4You09 : 8/10/2018 7:49 pm : link
And I believe Eli has said it too
RE: It’s actually a legitimate concern  
BestFeature : 8/10/2018 7:52 pm : link
In comment 14035798 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
And I believe Eli has said it too


What's the concern? He took the 3-4 yard gains everyone has been
clamoring for.
I wanted a QB  
mattyblue : 8/10/2018 7:56 pm : link
but I don’t dislike Saquon or think he sucks. He is definitely exciting and as a fan you gotta be excited about his potential. If people are bashing him because they wish we took someone else, they don’t really sound like fans to me.
RE: RE: It’s actually a legitimate concern  
BigBlue4You09 : 8/10/2018 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14035802 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 14035798 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


And I believe Eli has said it too



What's the concern? He took the 3-4 yard gains everyone has been
clamoring for.


OK I misunderstood.
JayIsland  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 8:00 pm : link
Unfortunately you are correct.

However, as one who wanted a quarterback, but am also a Penn State fan that saw almost everyone of Barkley s runs from scrimmage the past two seasons, what we saw last night, was a small sample of his college career.

Big plays, mixed in with small gains and losses. To be fair, Penn State did not have the line to pound it between the tackles.

I still believe the Giants made a mistake taking a running back instead of a quarterback. But if I m proven correct, it won t be because Barkley underperformed. It will be because no running back can be as important to a team as a franchise quarterback.


Which is why my personal opinion is that the evaluation of Barkley s selection is somewhat contingent on how Darnold s career unfolds.

FMIC disagrees with my take, and I see his point, the draft selection success should be judged solely on the peosupof the player drafted. By that standard I am confident Giants will have been proven correct.

But there are people in the business who also see it my way
I don't think there's ever been a NYG RB who could do what he did  
UberAlias : 8/10/2018 8:01 pm : link
on that first run. Maybe Tiki, but maybe not. And they didn't turn him lose in the passing game. He's going to be an exciting player.
Let me reconcile it  
montanagiant : 8/10/2018 8:03 pm : link
Anyone bitching about SB after last nite is a fucking idiot
Some fans will never ever ever be satisfied with Barkley’s play here  
djm : 8/10/2018 8:12 pm : link
Fuck them and their miserable viewpoints. They aren’t worth the trouble.

It’s always what ifs or there’s greener grass someplace else. And they know more than anyone. Fucking assholes.

Just be happy we got a legit talent will likely be one of the great ambassadors of the NY Giants franchise and shut the hell up already. Every time one of these qbs throws a tight spiral we’re gonna hear about it. Jerkoffs.
He had 4 touches and some are complaining? He's going to  
Blue21 : 8/10/2018 8:15 pm : link
bring us to our feet alot this fall. He is not a problem. No RB carries for 10 yards everytime he touches the ball.Let alone 39 yards.
Djm  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 8:23 pm : link
You do realize rooting for Barkley, appreciating his talent, hoping he becomes an all time Giant great, has nothing to do with a fan still believing a quarterback who becomes the next Simms or Eli might have been the better pick

Wanting a quarterback does not preclude a fan from fanatically rooting for Barkley.

Your response is way too angry for someone who states they could care less how those quarterbacks past on play.
I don’t give a shit about the QBs we didn’t take  
UConn4523 : 8/10/2018 8:28 pm : link
it’s over it’s done with, and no matter how good or bad they become, there’s no way to know what they’d do in blue. Think Tom Brady is a HoFer with the Jets?

I absolutely hate that argument, especially at the QB position. It’s perfectly fine to have preferred a QB, but there are many people on this site making things up about what Barkley should and shouldn’t be doing because they are so blinded by their own draft preference.
I have never seen a man of that size make cuts like that  
NoGainDayne : 8/10/2018 8:33 pm : link
against NFL talent. Plain and simple. He changed directions 3 times inside 5 yards and no one touched him.

AP had speed and power but wasn't ever that nimble.

If you can't see how that kind of ability is going to mean great things for him than you need your eyes or brain checked.

From a team construction standpoint he wasn't necessarily the best pick, that being said, if you don't think Saquon is going to instantly be one of the best all around backs in the league I hope you find the taste of crow delicious.
U Conn  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 8:35 pm : link
That s a very good point
RE: Youre top pick  
Brown_Hornet : 8/10/2018 8:38 pm : link
In comment 14035781 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
breaks a 40 yard run on his first ever pro carry and you're not happy, you probably suck at life

This!
Seriously...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/10/2018 8:41 pm : link
... four carries and we're arguing whether mean or median or average or any other fucking thing matters with regards to statistics on a running back who carried the ball 4 fucking times.
Oh by the way his first four carries in his professional career.

Blah blah blah web should retire Eli didn't put touchdowns on the board and Darnold was 66% in his first drive.


Hornet  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 8:47 pm : link
You re just now understanding the nature of this site. Everything you state is correct. There should be no judgements made about anything or one at this point

Darnold 66% in first drive. That made me laugh out loud.
The top Rb's do this - a big gain mixed in with 3 yard carries  
PatersonPlank : 8/10/2018 8:48 pm : link
The real difference with them is they get the big gainer. Who is this league goes for 20 yards a carry. This dialogue is rediculous. Its the NFL and all the defensive guys are good too.
Jets quarterbacks...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/10/2018 8:53 pm : link
... having a good first half.
Barkley sucks, should have drafted Bridgewater...~
RE: I don’t give a shit about the QBs we didn’t take  
Jerry from Maine : 8/10/2018 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14035846 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
it’s over it’s done with, and no matter how good or bad they become, there’s no way to know what they’d do in blue. Think Tom Brady is a HoFer with the Jets?

I absolutely hate that argument, especially at the QB position. It’s perfectly fine to have preferred a QB, but there are many people on this site making things up about what Barkley should and shouldn’t be doing because they are so blinded by their own draft preference.
Right on Ucon. People just like to stir shit up
I m not sure whether you  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 9:01 pm : link
Guys are mad that people stir things up or more worried they might be right.

isn't it human nature if they were convicted the Giants should take a quarterback, that their anger would flare up when they see that quarterback play well, even in a preseason game.
Some of you clowns on here  
Bill in TN : 8/10/2018 9:08 pm : link
are adamant that if we took a QB #1 he would automatically become a franchise QB. That is really a stretch of faith, and is bullshit, IMO.
No one is that clairvoyant. Sorry.
Bill  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 9:20 pm : link
If you referring to me as one of the clowns, very mature by the way, I ve never stated unequivocally that they would become a franchise guy.

I simply stated if Barkley becomes a super star back, and say Darnold become another Simms or Eli, Giants goofed

Don t see how that is an unreasonable take. Again, I think your name calling might more be motivated by the possibility that history might prove the Giants made the wrong pick, then you are at the other clowns you referred to.
I’m not scared of anyone being right  
UConn4523 : 8/10/2018 9:21 pm : link
I wanted a QB when it all started and I adapted my stance for many reasons which I don’t want to get into on this thread.

I want Barkley to be good, that’s it. I couldn’t care less about Darnold.
Joe...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/10/2018 9:30 pm : link
... if Barkley is good and the Giants win a Superbowl but Donald is Dan Marino and the Jets don't win a Super Bowl do you still think the Giants goofed?

I'm not giving you shit I'm just asking.
Tiki had a lot of games  
arniefez : 8/10/2018 9:36 pm : link
where he had mostly nothing runs and then a few big plays. Consistent yardage is usually a function of a dominant run OL like Dallas has. I think the OL will be better this year but I do expect that Barkley will get stuffed a lot and also have a lot of big plays. I don't think he's going to be 5,5,5,5. We'll see.
RE: This is how it is going to be with Barkley this year  
charlito : 8/10/2018 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14035769 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
You have the immense hype of Barkley mixed with people who wanted a QB instead. They are looking for any excuse to criticize Barkley so that they could say "I told you so." There are even some supposed Giants fans that would rather see Barkley be a bust and be proven right than to see him be an MVP type talent and be wrong.



Perfect response
hell Barry Sanders was stopped plenty until he wasn't  
gtt350 : 8/10/2018 9:44 pm : link
.
Without looking at stats  
ciggy : 8/10/2018 9:46 pm : link
I am fairly confident that the 39 yard run would have been one of the longest runs from scrimmage all last year. Or the year before that
RE: Without looking at stats  
NoGainDayne : 8/10/2018 10:10 pm : link
In comment 14035955 ciggy said:
Quote:
I am fairly confident that the 39 yard run would have been one of the longest runs from scrimmage all last year. Or the year before that


Only two runs longer last year...
Barry Sanders same reason  
arniefez : 8/10/2018 10:19 pm : link
he never played behind the kind of O Line Emmitt Smith did. If he did he would have set records that would never be broken.
To the OP:  
mrvax : 8/10/2018 10:20 pm : link
I think the reality of Barkley is that in college, he did often dance around when bottled up, trying to get that magic hole instead of taking the 3 yard gain if he plowed forward.

You really can't get away with that often at the NFL level. What I saw yesterday was SB doing exactly what he should have done when there were no holes to waltz into. He correctly decided to take what was given on that play. He did very well based off limited carries.
Brown Hornet  
joeinpa : 8/10/2018 10:22 pm : link
If that happened no, I wouldn't think they goofed. It s about winning championships.

But part of me believes Gettleman believes Giants can win now and didn t want to blow the opportunity with a rookie quarterback.

For me it s simple. The Barkley pick is tied to Darnold s success simply because Good quarterback trumps good running back. Great quarterback trumps great running back.

But if Giants win Super Bowl with Barkley and Jets never win one with Darnold, it would be silly to think Giants goofed regardless of how good Darnold is.
RE: Average yards is a bogus stat... I'm much more interested in median  
mrvax : 8/10/2018 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14035779 baadbill said:
Quote:
yards per carry... take two different theoretical game stats:

1. RB goes 100 yards on first play from scrimmage and then zero yards for 19 next carries, averaging 5 yards per play.

2. RB has 20 carries each exactly 5 yards per play.

Both backs average 5 yards a carry - but the respective runners' impact on the game couldn't be more different.

The "worry" I read about Saquon before the draft is that he his game stats are closer to example 1 style runner rather than example 2.

PS: I have no idea whether the concern is valid.



Bill: I have found median value to be a much more useful stat than average value in many areas of life.
...  
christian : 8/10/2018 10:42 pm : link
Not sure I've read much consternation on this site over Barkley's performance.

If I'm reading correctly he had 3 more carries for -2, 3, 3.

He showed what his supporters and critics see in him. A dynamite long run, and a sprinkling of below average runs.
RE: RE: Average yards is a bogus stat... I'm much more interested in median  
BestFeature : 8/10/2018 10:59 pm : link
In comment 14035998 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14035779 baadbill said:


Quote:


yards per carry... take two different theoretical game stats:

1. RB goes 100 yards on first play from scrimmage and then zero yards for 19 next carries, averaging 5 yards per play.

2. RB has 20 carries each exactly 5 yards per play.

Both backs average 5 yards a carry - but the respective runners' impact on the game couldn't be more different.

The "worry" I read about Saquon before the draft is that he his game stats are closer to example 1 style runner rather than example 2.

PS: I have no idea whether the concern is valid.




Bill: I have found median value to be a much more useful stat than average value in many areas of life.


With small sample sizes that's often the case. At the same time I just can't disregard an 80 yard TD run no matter how poor the median number is.
RE: ...  
BestFeature : 8/10/2018 11:02 pm : link
In comment 14036012 christian said:
Quote:
Not sure I've read much consternation on this site over Barkley's performance.

If I'm reading correctly he had 3 more carries for -2, 3, 3.

He showed what his supporters and critics see in him. A dynamite long run, and a sprinkling of below average runs.


But his critics make it sound like his runs are losses when they're not long. I've heard numerous times that he needs to take 3-4 yard runs when there's nothing there and he did twice.
He’s a dynamic receiver too  
RobCarpenter : 8/10/2018 11:04 pm : link
And he was the best player in the draft, period.

Drafting a QB at all costs is what poorly run teams do.

RE: Brown Hornet  
mrvax : 8/10/2018 11:10 pm : link
In comment 14035997 joeinpa said:
Quote:
If that happened no, I wouldn't think they goofed. It s about winning championships.

But part of me believes Gettleman believes Giants can win now and didn t want to blow the opportunity with a rookie quarterback.

For me it s simple. The Barkley pick is tied to Darnold s success simply because Good quarterback trumps good running back. Great quarterback trumps great running back.

But if Giants win Super Bowl with Barkley and Jets never win one with Darnold, it would be silly to think Giants goofed regardless of how good Darnold is.


Wait a minute, Joe. How do we know that Darnold was rated higher than Rosen & Allen on the Giants draft board?

I suspected the Giants would snag a QB but knew even before the draft that if they didn't take one of the top 4 it meant they did not see "FRANCHISE" written all over the guy. They know a lot more about grading QB prospects than I ever will. Since no QB, I'm glad they took Barkley.
RE: I don’t give a shit about the QBs we didn’t take  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/10/2018 11:36 pm : link
In comment 14035846 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
it’s over it’s done with, and no matter how good or bad they become, there’s no way to know what they’d do in blue


I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Drafting a good player is drafting a good player. It's not throwing darts at a wall.
What if...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/10/2018 11:49 pm : link
... Barkley is good.
The Giants have several good years but fall short of a championship.
Darnold is outstanding, the Jets have several good years but falls short of a championship.

Nelson is outstanding and apparently the missing piece and the Colts go on to win two SupeBowls?
RE: What if...  
BestFeature : 8/11/2018 12:04 am : link
In comment 14036036 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
... Barkley is good.
The Giants have several good years but fall short of a championship.
Darnold is outstanding, the Jets have several good years but falls short of a championship.

Nelson is outstanding and apparently the missing piece and the Colts go on to win two SupeBowls?


If the Colts will win two Super Bowls Nelson wouldn't be the main reason.
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