At gym listening to Big Blue Kick Off, from yesterday
They just addressed the internet battle between Giants fans in regard to drafting quarterback.
They said, Giants stated before draft, Davis Webb would have no bearing on whom they drafted. Said Gettleman made himself clear that he does not buy into the "positional value" idea, he believes you draft the best athlete.
I did not know that, but it certainly is revealing. It s not necessarily true that the Giants did not value these quarterbacks, just that they valued Barkley more.
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In comment 14036254 UberAlias said:
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Carrying them on his shoulders.
but that is my point he could only take them so far, it takes a team to win a championship not just a great qb..
Yes, but you're getting caught up the nuance of competing for championships vs. winning them. Elway absolutely brought the value that Denver consistently competed for them almost every year. The improved running game got them over the hump in winning the last game a couple of times.
but again it proves my point, having the hall of fame qb does not guarantee you anything
my point is even john elway needed help...
So dumb....Eli and Peyton have the same amount of SB wins and Eli is not in the same planet as Peyton.
Each year the fans of the Colts and Broncos knew they were going to be great on offense and make the playoffs.
With Eli we have some blind fait in the last 5 years and most times fans here predict 6-10 records.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.....A true long term franchise hof qb does not miss the playoffs as much as Eli and also gives fans the belief that eve if no sb they will be a good team making the playoffs
With Eli the last few years we are hoping we can score more than 20
so why are people so bent out of shape the team passed on darnold..
if both are hall of famers them singular does not get the giants any closer to championship...
if darnold was drafted the giants are not any closer to a championship opposed to drafting barkley...
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but didnt win until the end of his career when he had a great running back
So dumb....Eli and Peyton have the same amount of SB wins and Eli is not in the same planet as Peyton.
Each year the fans of the Colts and Broncos knew they were going to be great on offense and make the playoffs.
With Eli we have some blind fait in the last 5 years and most times fans here predict 6-10 records.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.....A true long term franchise hof qb does not miss the playoffs as much as Eli and also gives fans the belief that eve if no sb they will be a good team making the playoffs
With Eli the last few years we are hoping we can score more than 20
isnt the point to win championships? not just make the playoffs?
if you win 1 superbowl with barkley and never make the playoffs again, i would take that over playoffs every year and never winninh with darnold...
making the playoffs is great but if you do not win a championship what is the point?
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not a debate or point worth discussing.
so why are people so bent out of shape the team passed on darnold..
if both are hall of famers them singular does not get the giants any closer to championship...
if darnold was drafted the giants are not any closer to a championship opposed to drafting barkley...
Well let's see
With a qb we will be competitive year in and year out
With a rb with no qb we will be losing most years even if he plays great.
It is not rocket science
If you tell me that Darnold and SB both will make the HOF one day and which I prefer
I will take the qb because I know that if you have a HOF at that position you will be in the mix year in and year out
A RB? no chance
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In comment 14036250 nygiants16 said:
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but didnt win until the end of his career when he had a great running back
So dumb....Eli and Peyton have the same amount of SB wins and Eli is not in the same planet as Peyton.
Each year the fans of the Colts and Broncos knew they were going to be great on offense and make the playoffs.
With Eli we have some blind fait in the last 5 years and most times fans here predict 6-10 records.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.....A true long term franchise hof qb does not miss the playoffs as much as Eli and also gives fans the belief that eve if no sb they will be a good team making the playoffs
With Eli the last few years we are hoping we can score more than 20
isnt the point to win championships? not just make the playoffs?
if you win 1 superbowl with barkley and never make the playoffs again, i would take that over playoffs every year and never winninh with darnold...
making the playoffs is great but if you do not win a championship what is the point?
So I guess why watch football then is there is no point unless you win the sb.
Yea great line of thought
2- because some folks on BBI think Eli is done and this is wasting time
3 - some on BBI simply liked Darnold more than any RB (or fill in your favorite QB name)
4 - because people get bent out of shape on BBI on most any topic...
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
you can absolutely win with a good qb and a great team opposed to a great qb and good team...
having the great qb is not a prerequisite to winning
isnt the point to win championships? not just make the playoffs?
if you win 1 superbowl with barkley and never make the playoffs again, i would take that over playoffs every year and never winninh with darnold...
making the playoffs is great but if you do not win a championship what is the point?
You are lost in the weeds. Nobody evaluating talent can see so sharply into the future whether a draftable player is the difference between just getting to a superbowl and winning one. You pick the best players that can directionally point you down that path, and then the chips fall where they fall.
Get back to reality....
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isnt the point to win championships? not just make the playoffs?
if you win 1 superbowl with barkley and never make the playoffs again, i would take that over playoffs every year and never winninh with darnold...
making the playoffs is great but if you do not win a championship what is the point?
You are lost in the weeds. Nobody evaluating talent can see so sharply into the future whether a draftable player is the difference between just getting to a superbowl and winning one. You pick the best players that can directionally point you down that path, and then the chips fall where they fall.
Get back to reality....
i was responding to the guy who said championships do not matter and would rather make the playoffs every year...
what you just said is what i have said this entire time, drafter the best players...
Seriously? Now you are just being argumentative...
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isnt the point to win championships? not just make the playoffs?
if you win 1 superbowl with barkley and never make the playoffs again, i would take that over playoffs every year and never winninh with darnold...
making the playoffs is great but if you do not win a championship what is the point?
You are lost in the weeds. Nobody evaluating talent can see so sharply into the future whether a draftable player is the difference between just getting to a superbowl and winning one. You pick the best players that can directionally point you down that path, and then the chips fall where they fall.
Get back to reality....
what i have been saying this entire time
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but are in the playoffs every year? that is moronic
Seriously? Now you are just being argumentative...
are you just reading my comment rather than what i am commenting at?
the guy just said he would rather be in the playoffs than win championships...that is what my comment was directed at
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that if barkley is a hall of famer and darnold is a hall of famer, giants made a bad pick, i think that is bs...
you draft a hall of famer no matter the position it is a good pick
dont buy
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In comment 14036097 nygiants16 said:
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that if barkley is a hall of famer and darnold is a hall of famer, giants made a bad pick, i think that is bs...
you draft a hall of famer no matter the position it is a good pick
dont buy
how is it a flawed notion i literally said the same thing you just did...
you draft the best player you can..
you just said you draft the best player you can and let the chips fall, exactly what my argument was...
ok we will see how it plays out..
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To be dismissing the value of a good quarterback
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
you can absolutely win with a good qb and a great team opposed to a great qb and good team...
having the great qb is not a prerequisite to winning
And we won the sb with jacobs and bradshaw
Name me the last team to win a ring with a hof rb
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In comment 14036302 joeinpa said:
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To be dismissing the value of a good quarterback
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
you can absolutely win with a good qb and a great team opposed to a great qb and good team...
having the great qb is not a prerequisite to winning
And we won the sb with jacobs and bradshaw
Name me the last team to win a ring with a hof rb
that is not my point, and i even sakd drafting barkley by himself doea not win a superbowl, just like drafting darnold by himself does not win a superbowl....
it is about team will always be about team...
if darnold becomes a hall of fame qb it doesnt mean the jets are going to win, that has been my point this entire time...
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In comment 14036302 joeinpa said:
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To be dismissing the value of a good quarterback
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
you can absolutely win with a good qb and a great team opposed to a great qb and good team...
having the great qb is not a prerequisite to winning
And we won the sb with jacobs and bradshaw
Name me the last team to win a ring with a hof rb
and you just said championships do not mattet, so shouldnt we just look at playoff teams?
since all you care about is making the playoffs
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Carrying them on his shoulders.
but that is my point he could only take them so far, it takes a team to win a championship not just a great qb..
Raiders (Marcus Allen 1984)
Broncos (Terrell Davis 1998, MVP)
Rams (Marshall Faulk 1999)
Cowboys (Emmitt Smith 1992,1993,1996)
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In comment 14036258 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 14036254 UberAlias said:
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Carrying them on his shoulders.
but that is my point he could only take them so far, it takes a team to win a championship not just a great qb..
Yes, but you're getting caught up the nuance of competing for championships vs. winning them. Elway absolutely brought the value that Denver consistently competed for them almost every year. The improved running game got them over the hump in winning the last game a couple of times.
but again it proves my point, having the hall of fame qb does not guarantee you anything
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In comment 14036302 joeinpa said:
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To be dismissing the value of a good quarterback
It s a quarterback league, there is no other position close to it s importance
you can absolutely win with a good qb and a great team opposed to a great qb and good team...
having the great qb is not a prerequisite to winning
And we won the sb with jacobs and bradshaw
Name me the last team to win a ring with a hof rb
That would be the Greatest show on turf Rams I think 🤔
the pick alone is not going to carry the team so they went with the best player...
now it is up to gettleman and shurmur to build the best team...
no matter who they drafted it would still come down to who is around them...
plenty of just good qbs have wom championships opposed to hall of fame qbs...
Raiders (Marcus Allen 1984)
Broncos (Terrell Davis 1998, MVP)
Rams (Marshall Faulk 1999)
Cowboys (Emmitt Smith 1992,1993,1996)
And fairly speaking 39/52 Super Bowl winners will be Hall of Famers. And that 13 non HOFers includes Plunket twice, Theisman, and Simms who were pretty good players. Hoss and Foles were late season replacements for teams well on their way to contention.
the pick alone is not going to carry the team so they went with the best player...
now it is up to gettleman and shurmur to build the best team...
no matter who they drafted it would still come down to who is around them...
plenty of just good qbs have wom championships opposed to hall of fame qbs...
But here is the thing. Teams who have uncertainty for the future of the QB position usually jump at the opportunity to take one when drafting this high, as long as there is a franchise caliber QB available. The top player drafted is usually a QB, not necessarily the best player regardless of position. The reason for that is because teams understand how important that position is, how hard good QBs are to get, and how difficult it is to win without one. This is why the statement that DG doesn't factor position in is quite honestly head scratching, and actually hard to believe.
The Giants clearly had the need. There were obviously viable prospects considering a number were drafted in the first round including Darnold with the next pick, who was seen by many as the top QB in the draft, and the highest on the Giants board. So obviously they either did not think any of the QBs were worthy, or they just loved Barkley too much. Either way, it was a controversial pick. No one would have accused them of reaching for a QB had they taken Darnold. So this will be debated for a long time.
My personal opinion is and has been that Darnold is the real deal. He is the only player I would have taken over Barkely. I think it was a gift that he fell to them and believe it was a mistake passing up on that gift. Long way to go before anything is settled. What Darnold showed last night is exactly what his potential is, whether that happens or not. But seeing him show all of that, even if only in the preseason, with so little camp time, and also seeing Webb look like total crap in the same week despite two years in camp, is not at all inspiring confidence that my take is wrong. No need for hyperbole though --I am not lacking perspective that this is just a small initial test. So we have to see what happens from here.
The topic of today and every day (till finis mundi) is why the Giants did not take a QuarterBack in the 2018 draft.
Sinners will provide their own whips, clothing, health insurance, etc. This will continue till the careers of Mr. Rosen, Mr. Darnold, and Mr. Allen are complete. Let the Lamentations comence!
I think most BBIers can agree the Giants are not stupid. If they had a QB there that they ranked a "can't miss", he'd have been the pick.
There is only 1 possible reason that the Giants did not go QB with the 2nd pick in the draft. Let's just relax a while and see if they were right or wrong.
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the giants felt saquon qould be the better player so they took him...
the pick alone is not going to carry the team so they went with the best player...
now it is up to gettleman and shurmur to build the best team...
no matter who they drafted it would still come down to who is around them...
plenty of just good qbs have wom championships opposed to hall of fame qbs...
Yes, all this is true.
But here is the thing. Teams who have uncertainty for the future of the QB position usually jump at the opportunity to take one when drafting this high, as long as there is a franchise caliber QB available. The top player drafted is usually a QB, not necessarily the best player regardless of position. The reason for that is because teams understand how important that position is, how hard good QBs are to get, and how difficult it is to win without one. This is why the statement that DG doesn't factor position in is quite honestly head scratching, and actually hard to believe.
The Giants clearly had the need. There were obviously viable prospects considering a number were drafted in the first round including Darnold with the next pick, who was seen by many as the top QB in the draft, and the highest on the Giants board. So obviously they either did not think any of the QBs were worthy, or they just loved Barkley too much. Either way, it was a controversial pick. No one would have accused them of reaching for a QB had they taken Darnold. So this will be debated for a long time.
My personal opinion is and has been that Darnold is the real deal. He is the only player I would have taken over Barkely. I think it was a gift that he fell to them and believe it was a mistake passing up on that gift. Long way to go before anything is settled. What Darnold showed last night is exactly what his potential is, whether that happens or not. But seeing him show all of that, even if only in the preseason, with so little camp time, and also seeing Webb look like total crap in the same week despite two years in camp, is not at all inspiring confidence that my take is wrong. No need for hyperbole though --I am not lacking perspective that this is just a small initial test. So we have to see what happens from here.
What gets me is the idea that if Darnold becomes good we fucked up. What is Barkley becomes an all time great and Darnold becomes a good, not great QB? There are QBs like that in most drafts. 2018 isn't the last draft ever. We'll likely have a better opportunity to draft a QB of Darnold's talent than an RB of Barkley's talent in the coming years. How many first overall QBs for example have become worth their draft spot? Peyton, Elway, Aikman, and Eli come to mind (not putting Newton on this list yet). Lots of great QBs who have been had late in the first and later. Why are people being so myopic like the Giants will never have a chance to draft a franchise QB ever again.
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In comment 14036167 UberAlias said:
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You do realize that Eli Manning, the QB the team is all in on, has led the league in INTs or tied 3 times and is top 10 all times among QBs in fumbles and most among active QBs, including 2 nd in the NFL in 2007 when he won the SB, right? But hey, who needs facts.
So that makes drafting a turnover machine to be the heir apparent is a good idea?
Seriuosly? Um, it means you can’t look at one stat and expect it to tell the whole story. This would seem to be obvious.
I agree that ideally a franchise QB would have been nice, but drafting a turnover machine at #2 overall is a poor decision.
Eli has nothing to do with it.
You previously stated that you didn't understand what Darnold's detractors were seeing; I gave you a visual. There were some huge red blinking flags with Darnold.
I mean if you legit think that then yeah we made a mistake if you're right. It's possible and in fact probably that the Giants didn't think that.
Also few mention THIS RB's huge value in the pass game. Iirc the last time our O was good was when we had Vereen - mediocre overall but when healthy a top pass catcher for us. Meaning any QB / pass offense gets a big boost too. Changes the whole convo
There's good arguments on both sides, but IMO more than one way to make it happen. If we had a solid team we could do well with an avg QB and possibly go all in on an FA or draft trade if we're 'a QB away' down the road. So I'm not sure why it HAS to be QB just because of draft position, especially given the top player we got
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But for me personally, I think Rosen could be good, but I think Darnold will be elite. I think he will be better than guys like Matt Ryan or Stafford. I like Darnold more than any QB since Luck.
I mean if you legit think that then yeah we made a mistake if you're right. It's possible and in fact probably that the Giants didn't think that.
It had better be the Giants absolutely didn't think that...
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but didnt win until the end of his career when he had a great running back
So dumb....Eli and Peyton have the same amount of SB wins and Eli is not in the same planet as Peyton.
Each year the fans of the Colts and Broncos knew they were going to be great on offense and make the playoffs.
With Eli we have some blind fait in the last 5 years and most times fans here predict 6-10 records.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.....A true long term franchise hof qb does not miss the playoffs as much as Eli and also gives fans the belief that eve if no sb they will be a good team making the playoffs
With Eli the last few years we are hoping we can score more than 20
Go see how many times Drew Breed made the playoffs since their SB win.
No offense but I’ll take the judgment of dg and his staff over some guy behind a keyboard. Not saying he’s right and your wrong or your right and he’s wrong
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but didnt win until the end of his career when he had a great running back
So dumb....Eli and Peyton have the same amount of SB wins and Eli is not in the same planet as Peyton.
Each year the fans of the Colts and Broncos knew they were going to be great on offense and make the playoffs.
With Eli we have some blind fait in the last 5 years and most times fans here predict 6-10 records.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.....A true long term franchise hof qb does not miss the playoffs as much as Eli and also gives fans the belief that eve if no sb they will be a good team making the playoffs
With Eli the last few years we are hoping we can score more than 20
And most franchise qb’s have a gm that invests in a line and run game to help him. We just happened to have that one buffoon who didn’t. In like 10 minutes since being here dg has immensely improved those areas
The QB vs RB debate is silly for many reasons. First and foremost the draft is over. It was a nice debate before the draft. But, for me, the draft is over and I’m only interested in the joy of watching a player I hope ends up being the greatest RB in Giants history.
Secondly, this is a team sport. Would Montana have been as heralded as he was if he had been drafted by Cleveland? Would Jerry Rice have been as good as he was without Montana? If Eli has his best year this year, how much will be because of Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and a new OL? My point being, Barkley is going to make the Giants QBs for the next decade better than they would otherwise be. The whole debate is just a dumb one.