that. It was interesting. I have a buddy who is a pretty successful scout that believes Webb could be really good. It’s very obvious the kid was nervous and didn’t look great, hopefully he can improve and look better this week.
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
What does that mean? Are you really drawing conclusions on a throw, or two or a game or two? are you old enough to have watched Simms in his prime overthrow wide open receivers by at least a half a mile? I’m not comparing a great Giant to Webb, but even the best of them, with all the time in the world, miss their targets by a wide margin
As for throwing over heads, our current HoF QB has quite the track record of doing that, also. And as '56 said so did Simms, when he wasn't getting it batted back in his face.
How about waiting until September before pronouncing the patient terminal...
I remember Phil Simms well and Davis Webb is no Phil Simms.
Cute, but I wasn’t comparing the two as I STATED. Just that proclamations about a player’s talent level based on a few throws or games is beyond premature. Under the aegis of Shurmur, he may turn out to be a solid player for us. Or, he may wind up being a sack of shit. No way of knowing at this point.
Giants' fans are rooting against Webb. That would be like being on a boat and rooting against the captain. If he fails, you aren't going to like it.
Stating that Webb isn't very good is not rooting against him. It's stating an opinion that they don't think he's very good. Of course, they would hope that he plays well, otherwise they would be rooting for the other team.
I remember Phil Simms well and Davis Webb is no Phil Simms.
Cute, but I wasn’t comparing the two as I STATED. Just that proclamations about a player’s talent level based on a few throws or games is beyond premature. Under the aegis of Shurmur, he may turn out to be a solid player for us. Or, he may wind up being a sack of shit. No way of knowing at this point.
You know what helps then? Avoiding comparing Davis Webb to Phil Simms.
And I never said a word about the talent level of Davis Webb in my post
When I have to read incessantly about Davis Webb all offseason then he better not come out airmailing 5 yard passes all over the field. 9 of 22. It wasnt one pass.
Webb is still displaying the same lack of development as in the past.
Granted, it's a new system and he doesn't get a lot of burn with starters, but it has to be noted he's still repeating the same mistakes reading defenses, sailing passes, and not able to complete anything vertical over ten yards.
Never remember fans
section125 : 7:38 am : link : reply
rooting against a player like BBI does for Webb.
Like most things, the Webb discussion of his poor play is mostly a rebuttal to idiots like NYSports1 who keeps posting positive Webb information and negative Eli information frequently.
It is like there is a small cult of posters who have a singular purpose here.
Nobody wants Webb to fail. Which is probably why there was such disappointment in the first preseason game where he looked as bad as any QB has in recent memory.
I want to believe in the guy but the next play he makes in a game Â
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
For those complaining that he played with the backups and not the starters.
When did Davis Webb win the starting job on the Giants? Answer: he hasnt
In fact- Webb hasnt even won the BACKUP job on this team.
So he must in fact play with the backups because he is a backup and he must earn time with the starters by - i know this is shocking - playing well when he is out there with other backups.
RE: I want to believe in the guy but the next play he makes in a game Â
to beat their chest a bit about how awesome Darnold is and how much we screwed up not drafting him until he tears his shoulder and flames out completly becuase thats what happens to the jets. Then beliveing in Webb wont look so bad.
All kidding aside he does have the tools and made most of the right reads. Experience will help the rest, just need Eli to stay upright for the next 2 years
don’t click on Webb threads I guess. He was taken as a 2 year project, we are on year 2 and I’d question the coaching he got his first year. He hasn’t taken a meaning full since college until last week - rust, nerves, pressure, etc are all factors. These guys aren’t machines and shit happens.
If he doesn’t show improvement 3 weeks from now than he will likely be the 3rd stringer - and then it will be on to Lauletta. No point getting worked up about it.
RE: RE: RE: This Blind Webb love stuff is annoying Â
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
It's pretty much a misconstruing of their statements to fit your argument. Neither compared Webb to Simms or anybody else. They merely said that those players also airmailed throws. That's not making a comparison in any way shape or form. Heck, Webb and Simms both inhale before they exhale...*Stop* comparing them!!!!...
In fact, I would ask you to provide a list of QB's of any era or caliber who *never* in their life airmailed a throw. And *still*, that would not be comparing Webb to anyone on or off the list.
...you'll see a struggling QB. Bad decisions, bad throws, etc........
Webb needs to bounce back in the next game, but the Giants are hardly writing him off. They get to see him every day in practice, and while practice isn't a game, there's talent there.
It's a journey not a sprint for a QB.
I think the most pressing need for Webb is simply to S-L-O-W down.........he was way to hyped IMO.
Yeah I don't understand the "he was too excited" excuse. Â
He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
Finding quality starting caliber QBs is not easy. The best prospects go very high in the draft and even they are far from locks. Yes, you can find guys in the 3rd round or below, history has shown that. But it has also shown that it's very much a crap shot --you need a lot of luck as there are far more misses than hits. That and the fact that Jerry Reese did not exactly demonstrate having an eye for quarterbacks should give some suitable context for expectations.
For many, Webb ties into the draft debate of QB vs. best player. Many in the anti-QB camp voiced strong positions about not having the need to draft QB early. In these debates, Webb drew his share of vocal supporters such as Anita Marks, Landon Collins and a few of the beat writers, with several pointing to him as a reason, if not the reason, the team should go in a different direction with the #2 pick. That's the expectations that were set for Webb coming into camp.
In the early days of camp, there was a lot of praise for Webb. We kept hearing about his arm and there were impressive throws. Then as things progressed, the INTs began showing up in reports. In the preseason game, the off target and high throws were glaring. The ensuing practice have done nothing to quell the concerns, if anything, they continue to validate them.
None of this means that Webb should be given up on. But one would hope it is a bit of a reality check highlighting the precarious and unsettled state of the NYG QB position beyond this season.
Here is the real problem for the Pro-Webb people Â
There is no real reason to be a pro-Webb person at this point as he has done nothing and shown nothing yet.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
It wasnt his first ever NFL snaps. he played in 3 preseason games last year.
Webb is still displaying the same lack of development as in the past.
Granted, it's a new system and he doesn't get a lot of burn with starters, but it has to be noted he's still repeating the same mistakes reading defenses, sailing passes, and not able to complete anything vertical over ten yards.
Hit the nail on the head with this post, that’s what’s concerning about Webb.
He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
I know he's a pro, but anyone who has played sports has probably had a moment where you go thru practice and everything is great, then you get in the game and you just lose your focus, and things start to get away from you.
It happens, even to pros.
I expect Webb to learn from this, and apply it to his next outing.
He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
It wasnt his first ever NFL snaps. he played in 3 preseason games last year.
True...but he knows some of the hype and he wanted to obviously really impress. It didn't work out that way.
I have no idea if the kid is a prospect or suspect, but I'd rather judge him over a span of games rather than a few quarters.
news at 11. Why do you find it so hard to grasp that fans want him to succeed and look at what he can do well as selling points? He’s got a good arm, studies the game like crazy, and is trying to learn he NFL game. Odd are it doesn’t pan out but that’s why you get reps, that’s why you look at tape from your shitty performance, that’s why you keep working.
If you are only going to root for good players that’s fine, but stop getting upset at people who are looking forward to see what Webb can do.
RE: RE: RE: This Blind Webb love stuff is annoying Â
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
And how about all the anti-Webb folks be quiet for 4 games too? Its 1 qtr of the first pre-season game for crying out loud. You make it sound like he played against the Cowboys in mid season. Hearing the anti-Webb crowd (read also I wanted a QB be we didn't take one crowd) crowing after an overthrow in the 1st qtr of the 1st preseason game is more annoying than the blindly faithful Webb crowd.
RE: Here is the real problem for the Pro-Webb people Â
There is no real reason to be a pro-Webb person at this point as he has done nothing and shown nothing yet.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
From my perspective, this is a dumb take.
Taking the best player by far in the draft is never a wrong choice. Webb is irrelevant to that. The Barkley pick absolutely and definitively stands on its own.
and let it stand. You keep trying to distort other peoples' pov to form your debate basis and it would be much more effective if you just tuck cogent points on the merits or flaws of Webb himself.
Is that this was preaseason and not the regular season.
Those guys you mention actually earned their starting jobs by playing well in practices and then preaseason games. And they were playing against real NFL defenses that were bringing heavy pressure.
Preseason is supposed to be easy. That’s why most QBs throw 70% completion in the preaseason.
Instead of Phil Simms and Eli Manning, how about trying someone more in Davis Webbs league - like Christian Hackenberg.
Here is preseason highlights of Hackenberg throwing it all over the field in a Preseason game. If you just watched this you would like Hackenberg, a 2nd rounder that was traded up for might be a stud. This is what preseason ball is supposed to look like.
Some of the agendas here are very tiresome. We get it, you don't like Davis Webb - you think we should have taken a QB instead of Barkley. You think Eli is finished.
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
He still hasn't played in an actual game that counts. He's played in parts of preseason games and nothing more. Total all of his game action so far and it probably amounts to somethig like... one entire football game
I don't particularly see him amounting to an NFL starter, but I'm willing to at least give it a little more time and see if he improves at all. He has good tools to work with, we all know he works hard (he won't let anyone forget that)
Can we just cool it with the fucking agendas for a minute and see how he does in the 3 remaining games we have this summer?
It's like some of you guys root against our own players just so you can say you were right. As if that's more important than the Giants succeeding.
little to do with statistics or throwing mechanics... rather it is a contrast in poise under pressure... rookie Mayfield had it in spades... he was under control even when being pressured and on the run … Webb, in contrast, had virtually no poise at all, appeared to be lost and out of control and as the Rover Sports reviewer said, seemed to be playing scared.
making conclusions about Webb after one preseason game is unfortunately typical of BBI. My guess is that if he had been as spectacular as he was bad, then most of this Board would be anointing him as Eli's successor.
I supported the Webb pick because like most I didn't think we'd be in position in 2018 to draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen. Webb also has an excellent arm, and tremendous intangibles. But he came from a spread offense where 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS. From what I saw, most of his other throws were deep sideline "rail" passes. He made very few reads or throws at the second and third levels, where more accuracy is typically required. I therefore didn't know whether he could make those reads and throws at the NFL level. Others who saw more of him said he couldn't. The first preseason game tended to confirm their belief, but it was just one game.
As I've said, I don't think Webb or Lauletta is Eli's long term successor. But it's much too early to make any final conclusion.
Preseason is supposed to be easy. That’s why most QBs throw 70% completion in the preaseason
The hell they do. Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.
Now, there are a variety of factors on why that is, but I have no fucking clue why you would choose to say "most QB's throw 70% completions in the preseason". Completely made up for no reason.
RE: Here is the real problem for the Pro-Webb people Â
There is no real reason to be a pro-Webb person at this point as he has done nothing and shown nothing yet.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
I am NOT a Pro Webb person in the least. I am a Pro CHANCE person
RE: RE: I want to believe in the guy but the next play he makes in a game Â
I thought he played pretty well last preseason, considering it was his first preseason.
And who has had more game experience in the past year, he or Lauletta?
I'm not writing the guy off. I just haven't seen anything in a game that's caught my eye and made me think we have something in Webb. Hopefully he shows something eventually.
Preseason is supposed to be easy. That’s why most QBs throw 70% completion in the preaseason
The hell they do. Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.
Now, there are a variety of factors on why that is, but I have no fucking clue why you would choose to say "most QB's throw 70% completions in the preseason". Completely made up for no reason.
Ill play ball.
My evidence is my own. I looked at the entire NFL is week 1 and compiled it. It is linked. The vast majority were about 70%. Webb was at 41% and was 80th of 83 QBs
Now unless this was some unique occurrence in NFL history, this was a typical week in nfl preseason
Some of the agendas here are very tiresome. We get it, you don't like Davis Webb - you think we should have taken a QB instead of Barkley. You think Eli is finished.
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
Good post. Other than Webb fanboy sxdxca, I don't see any overtly "pro-Webb" posters. Just many of us, including me, intrigued by his talent. That said, his performance last week is concerning, mainly in that he played right into most of the criticisms levied against him - that he struggled with accuracy down the field.
To use the argument that he played in exhibitions last year is a silly argument. There was no pressure last year, as he was a 3rd round pick that no one was counting on to be anything more than a 3rd string clipboard carrier. The stakes are MUCH different this year, both with opportunity and risk.
He has a very real chance to win the #2 job, and even be the heir apparent to Eli, but there is also a new administration with no capital invested in him. So it isn't shocking that he might have been overly amped or nervous or a bit of both.
...you'll see a struggling QB. Bad decisions, bad throws, etc........
Webb needs to bounce back in the next game, but the Giants are hardly writing him off. They get to see him every day in practice, and while practice isn't a game, there's talent there.
It's a journey not a sprint for a QB.
I think the most pressing need for Webb is simply to S-L-O-W down.........he was way to hyped IMO.
Phil Simms was a first round pick, and the team was fully invested. If Webb doesn't make it, he was a low third round pick, what are you going to do? Chances are, most third round picks are not going to be franchise guys.
All that said, it would be worse if Kyle L. didn't look good, but he did, so we have something to be optimistic about as far as a back goes.
Did you actually see what the completion % was league-wide for that week of games or did you just eyeball that many QB's had over a 70% completion rate?
You know what the completion rate was for the Week 1 preseason??
62.7%
Christ, you can't even prove your own point using an example you cherry picked!!
Some of the agendas here are very tiresome. We get it, you don't like Davis Webb - you think we should have taken a QB instead of Barkley. You think Eli is finished.
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
Good post. Other than Webb fanboy sxdxca, I don't see any overtly "pro-Webb" posters. Just many of us, including me, intrigued by his talent. That said, his performance last week is concerning, mainly in that he played right into most of the criticisms levied against him - that he struggled with accuracy down the field.
To use the argument that he played in exhibitions last year is a silly argument. There was no pressure last year, as he was a 3rd round pick that no one was counting on to be anything more than a 3rd string clipboard carrier. The stakes are MUCH different this year, both with opportunity and risk.
He has a very real chance to win the #2 job, and even be the heir apparent to Eli, but there is also a new administration with no capital invested in him. So it isn't shocking that he might have been overly amped or nervous or a bit of both.
It's almost like "wait and see" is no longer an acceptable approach. I don't understand it.
People make up their minds the day these guys are drafted, find any shred of evidence that supports their claim - even when it's a tiny sample or inconclusive - scream from the heavens about it, but then ignore anything that doesn't.
Posters on this thread have very clear agendas and value their own opinions more than they probably should.
I'm pro-GIANTS. I am rooting for Davis and want him to succeed and am willing to give him more time.
Am I blind to the fact that he was garbage last week? Of course not. He sucked. Plain and simple. Cleveland also supposedly "game planned" for this game while we really didn't. I'm sure he was very amped up and jittery. If you're Davis Webb, this preseason literally can determine his entire future. Which seems dramatic - but it's true in a lot of ways.
More poor showings and Webb will go the way of Ryan Nassib pretty quickly. But if he shows signs of progress and encouragement, it will bode really well for him. He has a LOT riding on these next few weeks. Hard to ignore that aspect of this. Webb is going out there knowing this might be the only shot he ever really gets at this - there's a lot riding on it for him.
All I want to see is a better showing on Friday. If we get that, great. If he looks bad again, then hey... give Lauletta more time and try to get a better look at him so we can figure out who is really our best option should anything happen to Eli.
It's okay to be a little patient sometimes. A lot of posters here just seem to not be capable of it.
Ill play ball.
My evidence is my own. I looked at the entire NFL is week 1 and compiled it. It is linked. The vast majority were about 70%. Webb was at 41% and was 80th of 83 QBs
Now unless this was some unique occurrence in NFL history, this was a typical week in nfl preseason
What is your evidence and where did you get it?
I feel like Seinfeld in the car reservation line.
"You're doing compiling all over the place (arms waving wildly), but you aren't LOOKING at what you compiled. And that's the key - understanding what you've compiled......
You keep saying the evidence is your own, yet you really don't understand anything other than just listing the completion stats.
This past Thursday certainly didn't make me optimistic, but I am more than willing to suspend judgment until at least the end of this pre-season. And if it turns out that Webb isn't the guy, I sure hope Lauletta is the guy.
Because I'm a Giants fan.
Regardless, I think it's important to note that many of the reviews of Webb from practice and training camp have said that he is the goods and looks better than anyone else on the roster under center. Raanan and Pat Traina have particularly been very bullish on him, as I recall.
So let's not make a final judgment based on a couple of quarters of play, shall we?
I'm pro-GIANTS. I am rooting for Davis and want him to succeed and am willing to give him more time.
How in the world does BBI "giving Davis more time" impact what actually happens? You make it sound as though there is cause and effect between what people post here has some effect upon what decisions the Giants make on a player.
IMO, the entire issue of Webb "being ready" or "not ready" is a completely bogus issue. He was not drafted with the assumption he was going to be ready to play last year or this year. He is a project and remains a project. If he gets cut this year, it won't be because he wasn't good enough to be Manning's heir apparent - it will be because he wasn't good enough for the Giants keeping him around as a long term 3-5 year project.
How on Earth does this help the argument Davis Webb?
The league wide average was 62.7% - bear in mind that most major starters didnt really play so we are talking mostly backups and worse.
And Davis Webb was was 40.7%
So again, how on Earth does this help Davis Webb??? He was that bad.
But- I had said “most QBs throw 70%” - I didnt say the average.
The point of my post on the QB % was that nearly all of the QBs were over 50% - if you read it. 72 QBs out of 83 threw 50% and he couldnt do that.
And lastly, my point on Hackenberg was mocking. You compare to Simms and Eli and say hey they had crappy throws. Well I say even Hackenberg could look good in the preseason.
By your own admission and numbers, the league average was 62.7% and Webb was 41%
And you think this helps you!
Classic
We went from arguing over one pass and saying everyone does it to confirming that Webb was 21% worse than the average QB in week 1.
Great job, I couldn’t have said it better myself
Maybe you are too dense to understand but no one is defending Webb’s completetuon percentage. We are A. Saying your arbitrary numbers were pulled out of your ass and also incorrect and B. Are saying that we should give him time before coming to a final conclusion about his place on this team, because, you know, that’s what the preaseason is for.....
Lastly apply this logic to all players, this isn’t specific to Webb. Not sure if you realize that or not but there it is...
Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.
WHERE IS THIS INFO COMING FROM?
You said I made mine up. I gave you where I came up with it. I, of course said most QBs threw 70%. You came back with the “average is 62.7% - which isnt the same thing but fine, maybe my numbers a bit off but I made nothing up
you seemingly can't grasp stats, I'll give you a little exercise. Prove my post is wrong.
Quote:
You said I made mine up. I gave you where I came up with it. I, of course said most QBs threw 70%. You came back with the “average is 62.7% - which isnt the same thing but fine, maybe my numbers a bit off but I made nothing up
Where is your evidence?
I refuted your point - by providing exactly what the completion % was in Week 1, and by the way, the number of QB's with 70% was less than the number who had 70%, so even that point was false.
You can keep showing your complete lack of understanding by providing evidence my stats were wrong. Maybe you'll learn something along the way.....
This is so fucking ridiculous. Apparently you aren't taking away the key point - STOP MAKING SHIT UP!!!
you seemingly can't grasp stats, I'll give you a little exercise. Prove my post is wrong.
Quote:
You said I made mine up. I gave you where I came up with it. I, of course said most QBs threw 70%. You came back with the “average is 62.7% - which isnt the same thing but fine, maybe my numbers a bit off but I made nothing up
Where is your evidence?
I refuted your point - by providing exactly what the completion % was in Week 1, and by the way, the number of QB's with 70% was less than the number who had 70%, so even that point was false.
You can keep showing your complete lack of understanding by providing evidence my stats were wrong. Maybe you'll learn something along the way.....
This is so fucking ridiculous. Apparently you aren't taking away the key point - STOP MAKING SHIT UP!!!
Classic.
Prove me wrong
You accused me of making it up when you in fact made it up.
FatMans point was that the preseason numbers are worse than regular season and therefore Webb wasnt as bad.
My point was that you were full of shit. I have actually said nothing about Webb in this thread.
What I did was show evidence that the 70% figure was complete bullshit, and it popped out because traditionally the completion % is lower in preseason.
Are you being purposely dense? Because it sure seems that way.
what point are you trying to make? That Webb sucks, will never be an NFL caliber QB let alone Eli's replacement and you want all those willing to give him more time to admit he is dogshit?
If it's that you are making the argument that the Giants should have drafted Darnold, get over it.
Maybe you should take two steps back from the keyboard and rethink your argument.
FatMans point was that the preseason numbers are worse than regular season and therefore Webb wasnt as bad.
My point was that you were full of shit. I have actually said nothing about Webb in this thread.
What I did was show evidence that the 70% figure was complete bullshit, and it popped out because traditionally the completion % is lower in preseason.
Are you being purposely dense? Because it sure seems that way.
This is only one of numerous times he has distorted peoples' posts to bolster whatever point he feels he wants to make. Extremely disingenuous and dishonest.
Matt Lombardo
✔
@MattLombardoNFL
It’s almost like Davis Webb turned the calendar back two months. Looks as good today as he did during May OTAs and minicamp
you can do what I did, and find the data to disprove it.
Or are you a stat-challenged as you appear in this thread?
My sole contribution to this thread was to show that the 70% figure was bullshit - because you are consistently a horrible poster who makes shit up. Is it too difficult for you to do the same?
Matt Lombardo
✔
@MattLombardoNFL
It’s almost like Davis Webb turned the calendar back two months. Looks as good today as he did during May OTAs and minicamp
I'm pro-GIANTS. I am rooting for Davis and want him to succeed and am willing to give him more time.
How in the world does BBI "giving Davis more time" impact what actually happens? You make it sound as though there is cause and effect between what people post here has some effect upon what decisions the Giants make on a player.
IMO, the entire issue of Webb "being ready" or "not ready" is a completely bogus issue. He was not drafted with the assumption he was going to be ready to play last year or this year. He is a project and remains a project. If he gets cut this year, it won't be because he wasn't good enough to be Manning's heir apparent - it will be because he wasn't good enough for the Giants keeping him around as a long term 3-5 year project.
I made it sound like people's opinions of Webb effect how he plays or doesn't play? If thats what you got from my post, you suck at reading comprehension.
Just in case you're in need of basic clarification, the idea was that it's too early to draw a conclusion on Davis Webb - yet, some posters already have.
I hope Webb is the real deal because he's a Giant & seems like someone who puts in the time & work to try to be great. Thursday wasn't encouraging, but it's one preseason game. To make a definitive outlook on his career after one game is idiotic. Time will tell.
It doesn't matter. He didn't play well, but it doesn't matter. If he continues to suck during preseason he will be #3. If he plays well the next 3 games he'll be #2. I cant believe so many are willing to dig his grave after 2 qtrs in preseason game #1.
"QB Davis Webb had his best day in awhile. Came in and took some 1st-team snaps and fired some bullets into tight windows. Still a random high pass but better. He led starters down field to FG attempt in 2-minute drill. Based on practice reps, Webb way ahead of Lauletta".
I post this not to say Webb is anything yet, however my point is its way too early to make any decision whatsoever. For example, if he practices well and then plays well against the Lions, then again against the Pats, that 1 qtr against the Browns will mean nothing. It will just be chaulked up to nerves on the first game.
and what little we've seen of him with the Giants, the only conclusion based in reality is that he can't play. The rest is hoping that he'll show massive improvement in even the most fundamental aspects of playing quarterback in the NFL.
I'll say again that any snaps he gets are wasted. They should actively be trying to fill his spot on the roster with someone else.
plenty of talent in this world, individuals that actually produce results are a different crowd. We need to see that from Webb. Practice is different than a real game. does anyone think about practice when they are in the real game? Doubt it. If you ask an elite musician what scale where you thinking about in the part of the composition, they will laugh and say I dont think I perform. thinking is for the practice/room field. Webb needs to show the results when the play is real and they keep score.
And a good work ethic are all you need to be successful. The NFL is littered with the failures of plenty of QB prospects exactly like Webb. People eat up this fluff about him being the hardest working man in the locker room like hard working players are some rare unicorn. Plenty of guys have the desire to succeed, put in the hours, and just aren't NFL good.
his good characteristics and stating his good characteristics will make him succeed.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
When your rooting interest colors what you see you aren't seeing the truth.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
No idea if that’s directed at me or not but again, who’s not seeing the truth? Not everyone shares your views, not everyone is pessimistic about just about everything. None of us have any control over what happens with Webb. So you can beat a drum about him being terrible or you can see how it unfolds over the next 3 games.
To this point there is no evidence from his college or pep performance that he can play in the NFL. That's an objective analysis. The rest is hope - which is how we've been doing business the last five years.
I have little faith in Webb becoming useful at all, but it's still too early to declare it a sunk cost. I think we need to see a little more than like 40 minutes of preseason football - or whatever the total time he's played to this point has been - before we throw in the towel on the guy.
Beyond that, I thought I remembered seeing some good things from him last preseason. Last week obviously put a very sour taste in people's mouths.
But we have 3 games left - it's worth giving him a good amount of time. Eli should not need to play more than a quarter in any of these games, honestly. Webb and Lauletta need to be getting the majority of these reps so we can figure out if either guy is capable of backing #10 up or if we need to look elsewhere.
RE: There’s a huge difference between pointing out Â
his good characteristics and stating his good characteristics will make him succeed.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
He's a second year player. We're not talking about a couple missed reads here and there. We're talking about a guy that hasn't mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing the position. Why waste another snap teaching someone how to play quarterback?
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
I'm disappointed in this first look at Webb. Yes, there were timing and rust issues, and they were not all Davis. The Dumps and Flares and some Patterns were off time for much of his run.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
I'm disappointed in this first look at Webb. Yes, there were timing and rust issues, and they were not all Davis. The Dumps and Flares and some Patterns were off time for much of his run.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
He's a second year player. We're not talking about a couple missed reads here and there. We're talking about a guy that hasn't mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing the position. Why waste another snap teaching someone how to play quarterback?
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
It's not too early is your opinion - I don't think it's necessarily true or factual. I think giving up on a guy who has basically played grand total of one preseason game and has never even thrown a pass in one that counts and is only in his 2nd year is a bit premature.
Draft picks are precious assets. If you're going to dump a guy in year 2, you better be sure he's worthless. I personally don't think that's provable yet, and it doesn't seem like Pat Shurmur thinks so, either - and I'd say he knows just a tad more about the QB position than any of us do.
Lauletta isn't going to play every snap - this is the time to find out if Webb can give the Giants any reason to continue along with him or not.
I didn't think Webb was awful against the Patriots last year in the preseason finale. He made a couple nice plays.
To me, the Giants have nothing to really lose by giving Webb more preseason work to draw a better conclusion. If he doesn't show any improvement by the end of the month, cut bait and look for a vet to shake loose from somewhere else.
He hasn't mastered the basics in years - maybe the light will turn on and he'll learn basic body mechanics in 3 weeks.
Draft picks are indeed precious, and Reese wasted this one as he wasted many others his last few years here. That's part of the reason why he's gone.
Another part of the reason he's gone is that this team has a culture of giving its own guys the benefit of the doubt way too often. Instead of putting the onus on the players to not give the coaches a choice but to play them, this team has given guys opportunities they don't deserve. For the last 5 years or so incompetence and even abject stupidity (we rewarded a guy that blew his hand off with a contract extension) has been rewarded with opportunity.
I've got nothing against Davis Webb. By all accounts he works hard. So do lots of other people in the world...that doesn't make them qualified to be an NFL quarterback.
The "lets wait and see if things get better" approach is why this team has been a pathetic loser for the last 5 years.
He wasn't questioned as being a mechanical disaster in college.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a rookie struggling to get up to NFL speed and a guy that after a full year in the NFL still has not mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing quarterback.
Besides, you should be comparing Webb to Lauletta, not Goff. That's what matters to this team. And Lauletta in his very first NFL taste looked like he knew how to throw a football. Webb does not, despite the advantage of having spent a year on an NFL team.
Actually, Goff is the guy a lot of people compared Webb to as a guy who has a similar skillset - so he is relevant. They both played @ Cal and put up very similar numbers in their final year there.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
"We gave Davis a tremendous amount of freedom -- more than we gave Jared," Dykes says. "A lot of that has to do with what a guy is comfortable with. Certainly Jared had a great knowledge of our offense and what we were trying to do and everything, but I think he was a little more comfortable not having to direct traffic maybe not as much as Davis was.
"Davis likes directing traffic. That's kind of who he is."
After the snap, Webb showed off his cannon for an arm, which -- behind his brain and confident personality -- is his best attribute. He boasts an arm as pure as Lannister gold. He can throw from every platform. He doesn't need his feet to be set. He can make every throw required of an NFL quarterback.
Actually, Goff is the guy a lot of people compared Webb to as a guy who has a similar skillset - so he is relevant. They both played @ Cal and put up very similar numbers in their final year there.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
One note on this is that the WR's all (or mostly all) graduated with Goff, so Webb was working with all freshman, sophomores, and I believe 1 junior.
I don't know where you found that quote...but it reads like the Cal student newspaper.
Look...I can link stuff too:
Here's Sy's scouting report:
Quote:
6 – Davis Webb – California – 6’5/229: 74
Summary: Fourth year senior that graduated from Texas Tech early and was able to transfer to California for a graduate season. He earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2017, replacing last year’s top overall pick Jared Goff. Webb took advantage of his opportunity and displayed an NFL ability. His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup.
*Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.
Upside Pro Comparison: Brock Osweiler – CLE
Here's the "Weaknesses" and "Bottom Line" from the NFL.com scouting report:
Quote:
WEAKNESSES
Robotic decision-making. Decision on where to go with ball seems predetermined despite coverages. Needs to get better at manipulating safeties with his eyes. Inconsistent velocity to sideline causes nose of ball to dip. Drive throws sometime sail. Has slow setup in pocket with excessive pre-release steps. Cornerbacks contest too many throws due to lack of anticipation. Timing passes must come out sooner. Plagued by accuracy issues and decision-making outside the numbers on both intermediate and deep throws. Five of his 12 interceptions in 2016 were along deep sidelines due to under-throws and failure to read safety help. Touch and placement are an issue when forced to leave the pocket. Not a factor as a scrambler.
BOTTOM LINE
System quarterback with more than 65 percent of his attempts coming inside of 10 yards. Webb has enough raw talent to be considered a developmental prospect, but his decision-making and accuracy issues beyond 10 yards is a big red flag that might be tough to overcome in the NFL.
Here's Walter Football:
Quote:
Weaknesses:
Poor decision-making
Pre-determines too many throws
Stares down receivers, reads
Needs to improve reading defenses, reading coverage
Will need to learn operating a huddle
Will need to learn working under center
Will need to learn and improve footwork
Lacks composure when faced with a rush
Gets happy feet
Gets rattled by the rush
Pressure effects his accuracy
Seeing a theme? I'm seeing terms like "mechanics", "decision making", "footwork", and "reading a defense". I know it's not the Cal coaches talking, but silly me I'm going to listen to more to objective scouts.
And after a year in pro football we see those things playing out on the field. I'll concede that it's possible he'll improve these next three weeks. I don't have a crystal ball.
They said many of the same thing about Goff. Go look. His pre-draft concerns were things like poor mechanics, throwing wildly, not being NFL ready, being a developmental prospect, being a guy who's college stats were inflated by the system he played in, etc.
And his first year in the league, he was terrible. He started 7 games, threw 5 TD's and 7 picks. He had an 18.9 QBR. Absolutely pitiful.
If you were watching him that year and he was a Giant, I bet you would have said a lot of the same shit. "This guy can't play. Not an NFL QB. Cut bait"
Some QB's need time to develop. This is probably the most difficult position to play in all of pro sports.
I literally see no point whatsoever in not giving Webb another snap this preseason. There's nothing to gain. He was always considered a developmental guy. You don't draft a guy like that and then cut bait after one season where he didn't even get a shot to play in a game that mattered with starters.
This isn't me saying hold onto him for the entirety of his rookie contract or keep doing this for 3 more years. I'm literally just saying to give him more reps over the next 3 weeks and see if he shows any sign of progress. If he doesn't, move on. It's not really an absurd stance to have nor is it detrimental to the Giants to do that.
Webb is not Goff. You think the Giants give a shit about what Goff did in college related to Webb?
And besides that, there's nothing in common between the two. I'll go back to Sy's scouting report on Goff:
Quote:
1 – JARED GOFF – 6’4/215 – California: 86
Third year junior. Two time team captain. Semifinalist for the Davey O’Brien Quarterback Award in 2015. Has started all 38 possible games over his three year career. Goff has been re-writing the California record book since the day he stepped on campus. He checks off almost every box on the list when it comes ability, leadership, and off-field behavior. He has elite-level accuracy and touch in addition to consistent lower body mechanics and release points. Goff is as poised and as tough as it gets. His only main drawback a lack of bulk. He will need to gain weight and strength to ensure he can bounce back from the increasing physical nature of the game. There is a sense of smoothness, toughness, and patience here that is tough to find wrapped up in to one QB. While the frame concerns me like it did with Sam Bradford a few years ago, I think Goff will be able to handle the hits and stay on track. All in all, Goff will be one of the class’ elite prospects and very possibly the first quarterback taken.
"Consistent lower body mechanics and release points", "poised and as tough as it gets", "Elite level accuracy and touch". Did you read anything like that in Webb's scouting report?
I suppose it's possible Sy doesn't know what he's talking about. But given that Goff was the first pick overall and a playoff QB in his second year, and Webb was a third rounder that doesn't look like he knows how to throw a ball, I'm going to go with Sy on this one. Here's a Sy in his required reading "What I would have done" post-draft analysis:
Quote:
Again, I don’t want to be considered someone that “criticizes” any of the NYG picks, because that is NOT my intention. I didn’t like this one for a few reasons but at the end of day, NYG needs to start planning for life after Eli Manning. Webb checks a lot of boxes. He has a PLUS arm with a plus frame, he is a smart kid, he loves the game and studies it endlessly. What bothers me the most here is what he struggled with in September, he still struggled with in November. If anything, it appeared he went backwards once teams got some tape on him. His issues revolve around presence in the pocket and decision making once his initial reads weren’t there. In addition, this is a guy that really struggled to complete the tough throws. These college offenses make it so easy to complete passes so when I see Davis struggle to complete the deep ball and/or struggle to make throws in to tight windows toward the sideline, it worries me that he may not have it. What he does have right now, is time. Webb has 2+ years to improve and put his best foot forward. We’ll see.
Last week did you see anything other than what Sy wrote there? I did not. If anything, what we saw was worse.
So you ask: what's the harm in letting him stick around? To me, that's the mentality that makes this team shitty. Why aren't you asking, "What has Webb done to show he deserves a spot on the team?"
The answer is nothing. The only argument in his favor is we spent a third round pick on him. And that line of thinking is why this team sucks until proven otherwise.
How many teams cut bait with QB's this soon? Show me a list of teams that gave a developmental prospect drafted in the third round one year where he got zero playing time in a game that mattered and let him go immediately after.
Sy has his opinions and I respect them, but there are a billion scouts out there. I could easily go find scouting reports that say different things than his do. None of that shit is gospel.
Again, Jared Goff was utterly terrible as a rookie. He started 7 games and had a sub-20 QBR. Using your logic, what did he do to deserve staying in LA at that point? He was awful. He had a terrible preseason as a rookie, and his performance in games that counted was just as bad.
You're expecting a team to operate in a way that they simply do not operate. This has nothing to do with the Giants. Teams don't draft QB's in the 3rd round and then just get rid of them the very next season when they've thrown like 50 passes TOTAL on NFL fields in games that don't even count.
You can sit here and clamor for the Giants to not give him a single snap again and get rid of him all you want. They're not going to do that because that's not how teams develop players.
The funny thing is that I don't even think much of Davis Webb at all. I think Kyle Lauletta is far more interesting. I just think it's pointless to think the Giants are going to cut Webb off here. You keep repeating that they should, but they aren't going to and I'm fairly certain most other teams wouldn't either. Not now.
You've already conceded that it's possible he shows improvement. It's not symptomatic of a larger issue to give a 2nd year QB reps in the preseason.
You're also forgetting that this is now a completely different system than the one he learned last year. So, he's essentially a rookie again now. This is all brand new. Nothing is carrying over from last year. The staff is different, the coach is different, and a bunch of the players are too.
I'm really just wasting words here. I believe Webb should continue to get reps this preseason. If he shows us something, we move forward. If he has 2-3 more showings like last week, that's it. Our only major disagreement is that you're in a rush to ditch him right this second and I don't see any benefit to doing so. That's really all it boils down to.
Goff was terrible as a rookie for a different reason than what makes Webb terrible now. Goff was adjusting to the pro game. Lots and lots of guys struggle as rookies...it's part of the learning curve and completely natural.
What we have with Webb is not a learning curve issue, though. Besides having all the regular difficulties you'd associate with a young QB, he has deeper fundamental deficiencies that were never apparent in Goff, Eli, or any other successful NFL QB that endured a rough rookie start.
Put simply: he doesn't know how to throw a football at an NFL level. Not in a game situation, anyway. I'm sure in practice he looks great...but in a game situation under a pass rush is when you see the true mechanics come out. And the truth is Webb's are deeply, deeply flawed.
On a side note, I noticed the same issue with Josh Allen for the Bills. As their game went along his release point got lower and lower. Obviously his arm strength isn't an issue, but his accuracy is going to be erratic unless he gets his mechanics under control.
Also, you didn't answer my question - how many teams have given up on a 3rd rd QB after 1 preseason game in his 2nd season without there being any outside reason for doing so (i.e.. character issues, etc) ?
Your assessment of Webb really isn't much different than mine. I am just not seeing the rush in cutting the entire thing off here. Not everyone in the Giants org thinks Davis Webb is already a sunk cost and it doesn't have to reflect an organizational flaw for them to stick with him a little longer.
I just don't see how it harms the Giants to give this guy the rest of the preseason. I'm not even advocating anything beyond that. I think that's more than fair - and realistic.
Cutting bait right this second is not. It's just not something teams typically do, and the Giants aren't going to do that here either.
I don't know the answer to your question. If you want to know, feel free to research it.
And to answer your other question, Webb IS adjusting to the pro game too...so do you think that makes it more or less likely he is going to be able to completely revolutionize his fundamentals? Is that going to be an easy thing for him to do while learning the pro game? There's a reason teams tend not to draft quarterbacks that are bad at throwing footballs...the job is already difficult enough without having to teach them how to physically throw a ball.
And I've already outlined the cost of keeping Webb around. Those are snaps Lauletta doesn't get. Those are snaps that we can't properly assess our offensive depth players because the offense simply can not function with Webb under center.
And here's a question I've got for you: what is gained by keeping Webb around? We hope that he learns how to throw in a few weeks AND grasps the difficulties of an NFL offense? Wouldn't we be ahead of the game if we just replaced him with someone who knows how to throw?
Face it - Webb was drafted by Jerry Reese, a guy with a .000 batting average in drafting and developing QBs. He was drafted because he physically looks the part, even if he can't actually play the position - a mistake we've known Reese to make many times at many positions.
Finally, I'll quote Mike Lombardi from this week's GM Street podcast: "The Giants don't have a backup quarterback."
Again, though - you're stating your opinion as fact.
It's likely Webb won't pan out. Not definite. But you keep saying it like it's definite. If this were the case, Pat Shurmur wouldn't be wasting his time on this guy. One thing Shurmur knows is QB's. If he's sticking with this, despite the guy who drafted Webb not even being here any longer, I will defer to him and think that there's probably a reason for it.
You asked me what is gained by keeping him around and to me, it's a simple matter of comparing risk/reward. There is virtually zero risk associated with giving him more time this preseason, but there is potential reward if he improves and winds up being a capable player.
Kyle Lauletta doesn't need to play every snap in these games. Josh Johnson was the type of QB that preseason snaps were completely wasted on because he had been around long enough where it was crystal clear that he simply wasn't good and wasn't going to get any better.
You're making it sound like it's going to set the Giants back 10 years by giving a QB in his 2nd year preseason snaps. I don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you or why you're so desperate to see the guy get cut off right this second.
Bottom line is this: the Giants aren't going to do what you want them to do because there's no reason to do it.
Actually, what I saw in the game wasn't great from Webb... Â
but it would be incorrect to say that he hasn't progressed at all.
For one thing, several said here he couldn't be counted on to play a game on a 2 win team in December because he still didn't know how to take a snap under center. If that were true then, he has certainly progressed. I saw him take the right number of steps in his drop back multiple times.
It also appeared he was more comfortable operating in the pocket.
He also didn't turn the ball over. Truth be told, he did make an ill-advised throw (or two) into coverage, but that happens to a lot of QB's who make more than 20 attempts in a game. That's actually a sign of a guy who is confident in his arm to make a play. That can be both a positive and a negative.
What worries me is his lack of feel for both accuracy and touch. I'm with Shurmur who says arm strength isn't as important as accuracy when it comes to evaluating QB's. I'd feel much better about Webb if he could start to show more consistent accuracy.
Having said that, I've lived with Eli and enjoyed the highs of a guy who can come out and throw the most beautiful balls and play lights out for many games, then have stretches of horrible play where he throws off target and without great touch. If Eli can succeed, I think Webb has a chance to be successful in the NFL.
I'm not pro-Webb either, btw. I'm in his corner as long as he's designated the #2 behind Eli by the coaching staff. That's simply because of two things:
1. I have a lot less info than they do about his performance, including what he did vs. what he should have done.
2. I have a lot less experience than they do at evaluating QB's and their performance.
Given Shurmur's reputation I don't know how any serious Giants fan can expect to be better than he is at determining who should be #2.
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
I don't know enough about the mechanics of playing QB to know whether or not his throwing problems are related to taking dropbacks or not. One of other knocks against Webb is that he can be a bit slow to read and process the field. If that was the case in a shotgun offense, it could be exacerbated even more by having to play under center.
Look, I think it's fair to say that we all need to see more out of Webb starting tonight - otherwise this experiment won't last long.
I'm actually really looking forward to tonight to get another look at the QB's.
Like I said in another thread - Webb doesn't have to be perfect. All I want to see is a TD drive. I want to see some poise, some more accurate throws. Hopefully at least 60%. He doesn't have to go 20-25 and throw for 275 yards and 3 TD. Just show me that there's a reason to think last week was a hiccup and not where he's really at in is development (or lack-thereof)
If he sucks again, give Lauletta all of the snaps Eli doesn't take next week and then in Game 4, give Lauletta 3 quarters.
The funniest part about it is we all agree he likely won’t be the answer as Eli’s replacement, we are simply supporting the notion that time and reps could get him to turn the corner.
All I said was it’s entirely possible he improves and gives the Giants a reason to continue along in trying to develop him. He did exactly what I was looking for. He made an excellent throw on 3rd and very long. He had a 106.3 rating. Didn’t turn the ball over. Led a TD drive and made some really nice throws.
The only thing that isn’t surprising here is that you won’t concede anything because you think you know so much more than everyone else. Exactly what I expected.
And you’d still cut him right now. Amazing. The stubbornness is unparalleled.
You're the dipshit that bumped the thread. I'm not the stubborn one.
Oh yeah. You aren’t stubborn at all. How many times did you say Beckham was an asshole or harp on any of the other obsessive sticking points you’ve had over the years?
Cmon dude. You’re at the point now where you’re trying to frame mechanics being more important than results. Think about that. You want to cut a QB who was just drafted last year after his best preseason showing because you care that much about being right.
I actually like the back and forths we have because we basically agree on nothing. I’m definitely stubborn sometimes. But when I am wrong, I have no problem admitting it. Not sure I can say the same for you, bud.
is a lot of good QBs have below average mechanics, or downright terrible mechanics. Rivers is at the top of that list, to an extent Stafford as well. Then you have the 2018 class led by Darnold has a very long, awkward wind up and realease (saw it yesterday on several occasions), even your favorite, Lamar Jackson, has poor mechanics (throws off his front leg and winds up like he’s throwing a baseball).
This is the deal with college football now and it’s the job of guys like Shurmur to break players out of bad habits, harness what’s good, and try to put together a more polished final product. It’s called professional coaching.
So when I see reports of Davis Webb’s poor mechanics from his college days, I pretty much don’t give a shit. If Shurmur can correct some of it, even just a moderate amount, it could lead to promising results.
From a raw talent standpoint, huge arm, big body, not terribly mobile and so-so release. Similar hitch in his throw; when off his elbow drops and starts missing high. Looked great last night, hope he can continue to progress.
Bottom line is Webb showed progress. The throw to Shepard on 3rd and 19 or whatever it was, was a great fucking throw. He dropped that right in the bucket. That's not an easy throw to make. I care about results much more than I care about mechanics.
Last night was very positive for the QBs. Lauletta sailed a few throws and was a little off at times but he also again flashed and I really don't think the arm strength is going to be a problem. Loved the TD run. Eli hasn't been able to move anything like that in about a decade so it was kind of fun to see a Giants QB make a play with his legs.
Preseason is preseason but I think sometimes the results matter more for teams in certain situations and I think this team really needed to win a game like this and put some points on the board. It was important to have something positive to build on. I'm happy with what I saw last night and think it was a step in the right direction.
this good or when all of the QBs all performed well in the same pre-season game. It was a good feel game, and one that was way past due for this offense. Very happy for Webb and Lauletta. The touch on the 3rd and 17 pass from Webb was perfect. The accuracy on the 40 yard bomb was perfectly placed where only the WR could catch it. *If* this is the real Davis Webb and he continues to progress (big if, I know), it would be awesome because then we wouldn't have to spend any future draft picks on QBs. Still a big if, though, I know.
And the question is how much tolerance for inconsistency at the QB position can Giants fans have?
I hope we remember Eli's legacy, which we should all treasure, and was marked by consistency as a pro even though the results on the field were regularly inconsistent.
was that his mechanics and stats relly sucked during his rookie year. 55.4 passer rating, and he threw high or into the ground, often off his back foot, all year. Our world class "expert" here, whom I will not name, knows for a fact that Webb won't get any better--although he surely looked better this week, and is coming off a season where he never saw the field.
Will he be a quality pro quarterback? Dunno, but there is at least evidence that he has a shot, after a nice game two. Claiming that he can't improve from here seems more than a little crazy, imo.
Webb Breakdown - ( New Window )
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
What does that mean? Are you really drawing conclusions on a throw, or two or a game or two? are you old enough to have watched Simms in his prime overthrow wide open receivers by at least a half a mile? I’m not comparing a great Giant to Webb, but even the best of them, with all the time in the world, miss their targets by a wide margin
But when I watched him last week..........
As for throwing over heads, our current HoF QB has quite the track record of doing that, also. And as '56 said so did Simms, when he wasn't getting it batted back in his face.
How about waiting until September before pronouncing the patient terminal...
Cute, but I wasn’t comparing the two as I STATED. Just that proclamations about a player’s talent level based on a few throws or games is beyond premature. Under the aegis of Shurmur, he may turn out to be a solid player for us. Or, he may wind up being a sack of shit. No way of knowing at this point.
Stating that Webb isn't very good is not rooting against him. It's stating an opinion that they don't think he's very good. Of course, they would hope that he plays well, otherwise they would be rooting for the other team.
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
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I remember Phil Simms well and Davis Webb is no Phil Simms.
Cute, but I wasn’t comparing the two as I STATED. Just that proclamations about a player’s talent level based on a few throws or games is beyond premature. Under the aegis of Shurmur, he may turn out to be a solid player for us. Or, he may wind up being a sack of shit. No way of knowing at this point.
You know what helps then? Avoiding comparing Davis Webb to Phil Simms.
And I never said a word about the talent level of Davis Webb in my post
When I have to read incessantly about Davis Webb all offseason then he better not come out airmailing 5 yard passes all over the field. 9 of 22. It wasnt one pass.
Granted, it's a new system and he doesn't get a lot of burn with starters, but it has to be noted he's still repeating the same mistakes reading defenses, sailing passes, and not able to complete anything vertical over ten yards.
section125 : 7:38 am : link : reply
rooting against a player like BBI does for Webb.
Like most things, the Webb discussion of his poor play is mostly a rebuttal to idiots like NYSports1 who keeps posting positive Webb information and negative Eli information frequently.
It is like there is a small cult of posters who have a singular purpose here.
Nobody wants Webb to fail. Which is probably why there was such disappointment in the first preseason game where he looked as bad as any QB has in recent memory.
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Just look at his first pass on 3rd and 11
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
When did Davis Webb win the starting job on the Giants? Answer: he hasnt
In fact- Webb hasnt even won the BACKUP job on this team.
So he must in fact play with the backups because he is a backup and he must earn time with the starters by - i know this is shocking - playing well when he is out there with other backups.
And who has had more game experience in the past year, he or Lauletta?
All kidding aside he does have the tools and made most of the right reads. Experience will help the rest, just need Eli to stay upright for the next 2 years
If he doesn’t show improvement 3 weeks from now than he will likely be the 3rd stringer - and then it will be on to Lauletta. No point getting worked up about it.
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In comment 14039372 twostepgiants said:
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Just look at his first pass on 3rd and 11
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
It's pretty much a misconstruing of their statements to fit your argument. Neither compared Webb to Simms or anybody else. They merely said that those players also airmailed throws. That's not making a comparison in any way shape or form. Heck, Webb and Simms both inhale before they exhale...*Stop* comparing them!!!!...
In fact, I would ask you to provide a list of QB's of any era or caliber who *never* in their life airmailed a throw. And *still*, that would not be comparing Webb to anyone on or off the list.
Webb needs to bounce back in the next game, but the Giants are hardly writing him off. They get to see him every day in practice, and while practice isn't a game, there's talent there.
It's a journey not a sprint for a QB.
I think the most pressing need for Webb is simply to S-L-O-W down.........he was way to hyped IMO.
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
For many, Webb ties into the draft debate of QB vs. best player. Many in the anti-QB camp voiced strong positions about not having the need to draft QB early. In these debates, Webb drew his share of vocal supporters such as Anita Marks, Landon Collins and a few of the beat writers, with several pointing to him as a reason, if not the reason, the team should go in a different direction with the #2 pick. That's the expectations that were set for Webb coming into camp.
In the early days of camp, there was a lot of praise for Webb. We kept hearing about his arm and there were impressive throws. Then as things progressed, the INTs began showing up in reports. In the preseason game, the off target and high throws were glaring. The ensuing practice have done nothing to quell the concerns, if anything, they continue to validate them.
None of this means that Webb should be given up on. But one would hope it is a bit of a reality check highlighting the precarious and unsettled state of the NYG QB position beyond this season.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
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He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
It wasnt his first ever NFL snaps. he played in 3 preseason games last year.
Granted, it's a new system and he doesn't get a lot of burn with starters, but it has to be noted he's still repeating the same mistakes reading defenses, sailing passes, and not able to complete anything vertical over ten yards.
Hit the nail on the head with this post, that’s what’s concerning about Webb.
I know he's a pro, but anyone who has played sports has probably had a moment where you go thru practice and everything is great, then you get in the game and you just lose your focus, and things start to get away from you.
It happens, even to pros.
I expect Webb to learn from this, and apply it to his next outing.
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In comment 14039458 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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He couldn't get a handle on his emotions after being on the field for an entire half of a football game? This is supposed to make anyone feel better?
No, but there’s many reasons why he didn’t look right and we’ve offered a few possibilities. Of course he can also just not be very good, but I don’t see the point is going that far based on his first ever NFL snaps.
I never really bothered to look for reasons why X happens in sports. You never get your answer and but if you did the answer is usually multifaceted. In this case, there’s a lot going on and I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
It wasnt his first ever NFL snaps. he played in 3 preseason games last year.
True...but he knows some of the hype and he wanted to obviously really impress. It didn't work out that way.
I have no idea if the kid is a prospect or suspect, but I'd rather judge him over a span of games rather than a few quarters.
If you are only going to root for good players that’s fine, but stop getting upset at people who are looking forward to see what Webb can do.
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In comment 14039372 twostepgiants said:
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Just look at his first pass on 3rd and 11
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Then how about all the pro Davis Webb actually just be quiet for 4 games. Now everyone is all like “he hasnt played in a year” as an excuse for his performance. Well then why did I have to read about him for the last 10 months?
This thread is another attempt to whitewash what was one of the worst preseason performances from any QB in the entire NFL last week. It’s wasnt bad. It was putrid. It wasnt worthy of being on NFL roster bad.
People whined about him not getting an NFL start last year. Well last week you saw why he didnt start. That was with an entire 8 months of prep after minicamps and training camp with a new staff. That was against NFL backups. Against a team not even bringing their pressure D and blitzes. Against a team that was winless last year.
maybe he turns it around, maybe he doesnt but can the pro Webb people just calm down before he shows one single thing?
BB 56 mentioned Simms. You mentioned Eli. Both emblamatic of the problem. Compare him to other players who have never played an NFL snap. Davis Webb hasnt done anything to be mentioned in their breath. He has played in 4 preseason games in his life and the performances were either not good or not noteworthy.
And here’s another newsflash. Telling people he was “amped up” for his 4th preseason game doesnt help. That’s not a quality one wants in an NFL QB. Especially since he couldnt calm down in his 2+ quarters of play.
And how about all the anti-Webb folks be quiet for 4 games too? Its 1 qtr of the first pre-season game for crying out loud. You make it sound like he played against the Cowboys in mid season. Hearing the anti-Webb crowd (read also I wanted a QB be we didn't take one crowd) crowing after an overthrow in the 1st qtr of the 1st preseason game is more annoying than the blindly faithful Webb crowd.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
Taking the best player by far in the draft is never a wrong choice. Webb is irrelevant to that. The Barkley pick absolutely and definitively stands on its own.
Those guys you mention actually earned their starting jobs by playing well in practices and then preaseason games. And they were playing against real NFL defenses that were bringing heavy pressure.
Preseason is supposed to be easy. That’s why most QBs throw 70% completion in the preaseason.
Instead of Phil Simms and Eli Manning, how about trying someone more in Davis Webbs league - like Christian Hackenberg.
Here is preseason highlights of Hackenberg throwing it all over the field in a Preseason game. If you just watched this you would like Hackenberg, a 2nd rounder that was traded up for might be a stud. This is what preseason ball is supposed to look like.
Hackenberg Slings It - ( New Window )
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
He still hasn't played in an actual game that counts. He's played in parts of preseason games and nothing more. Total all of his game action so far and it probably amounts to somethig like... one entire football game
I don't particularly see him amounting to an NFL starter, but I'm willing to at least give it a little more time and see if he improves at all. He has good tools to work with, we all know he works hard (he won't let anyone forget that)
Can we just cool it with the fucking agendas for a minute and see how he does in the 3 remaining games we have this summer?
It's like some of you guys root against our own players just so you can say you were right. As if that's more important than the Giants succeeding.
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Just look at his first pass on 3rd and 11
He sails an uncatchable pass to a guy 5 yards away under absolutely zero pressure and no defender within a 5 yard radius of the receiver.
If he can’t hit that then what are we talking about him for?
I don’t know what to make of Webb, but drawing conclusions on 1 play is the epitome of pointless. I’ve seen Eli do the same thing, haven’t you?
He’s going to play in all 4 preseason games, the least you can do is wait to see how that goes.
Great QB? Ehh not so much.
I supported the Webb pick because like most I didn't think we'd be in position in 2018 to draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen. Webb also has an excellent arm, and tremendous intangibles. But he came from a spread offense where 60-65% of his passes were within 10 yards of the LOS. From what I saw, most of his other throws were deep sideline "rail" passes. He made very few reads or throws at the second and third levels, where more accuracy is typically required. I therefore didn't know whether he could make those reads and throws at the NFL level. Others who saw more of him said he couldn't. The first preseason game tended to confirm their belief, but it was just one game.
As I've said, I don't think Webb or Lauletta is Eli's long term successor. But it's much too early to make any final conclusion.
The hell they do. Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.
Now, there are a variety of factors on why that is, but I have no fucking clue why you would choose to say "most QB's throw 70% completions in the preseason". Completely made up for no reason.
So why do they exist?
They really supported the status quo and making another run with it ie. Give Eli a Saquon Barkley or a ton of picks in a trade down.
Or in another word- they didnt want to draft a QB.
So for them to justify passing on the QBs they had to boost up Webb - if we have a QB already we dont need one.
Or the QBs arent that good so therefore we shouldnt draft one. (Webb is as old or almost as good)
Those were the 2 positions most commonly taken by the Webb people.
Those two platforms came crashing into reality last week.
Acknowledging that Webb isn’t likely to be the guy and is just like any other project 3rd round QB that is a lottery ticket makes one face the argument that the draft a QB people made- Eli is 37 and we need a replacement eventually and we may be about to enter QB hell.
And very clearly Baker Mayfield (who yes he went #1 but potentially could have been trade up for), Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen all looked the part of future franchise QB. Webb was on the same field as Baker and couldnt hold a candle to him. darnold doing it for the Jets stole all the backpage headlines.
These 2 positions came crashing into reality and the proWebb people are panicking realizing the Giants have a very uncertain future ahead at QB with an again Eli and no obvious way to solve it right now.
I am NOT a Pro Webb person in the least. I am a Pro CHANCE person
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will be the first.
I thought he played pretty well last preseason, considering it was his first preseason.
And who has had more game experience in the past year, he or Lauletta?
I'm not writing the guy off. I just haven't seen anything in a game that's caught my eye and made me think we have something in Webb. Hopefully he shows something eventually.
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Preseason is supposed to be easy. That’s why most QBs throw 70% completion in the preaseason
The hell they do. Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.
Now, there are a variety of factors on why that is, but I have no fucking clue why you would choose to say "most QB's throw 70% completions in the preseason". Completely made up for no reason.
Ill play ball.
My evidence is my own. I looked at the entire NFL is week 1 and compiled it. It is linked. The vast majority were about 70%. Webb was at 41% and was 80th of 83 QBs
Now unless this was some unique occurrence in NFL history, this was a typical week in nfl preseason
What is your evidence and where did you get it?
Wk 1 preseason QBs - ( New Window )
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
Good post. Other than Webb fanboy sxdxca, I don't see any overtly "pro-Webb" posters. Just many of us, including me, intrigued by his talent. That said, his performance last week is concerning, mainly in that he played right into most of the criticisms levied against him - that he struggled with accuracy down the field.
To use the argument that he played in exhibitions last year is a silly argument. There was no pressure last year, as he was a 3rd round pick that no one was counting on to be anything more than a 3rd string clipboard carrier. The stakes are MUCH different this year, both with opportunity and risk.
He has a very real chance to win the #2 job, and even be the heir apparent to Eli, but there is also a new administration with no capital invested in him. So it isn't shocking that he might have been overly amped or nervous or a bit of both.
I didn’t look st every game but I’m going to go out on a limb and say your takeaway is bullshit.
Explain Mayfield at 55% - I guess he sucks?
Webb needs to bounce back in the next game, but the Giants are hardly writing him off. They get to see him every day in practice, and while practice isn't a game, there's talent there.
It's a journey not a sprint for a QB.
I think the most pressing need for Webb is simply to S-L-O-W down.........he was way to hyped IMO.
Phil Simms was a first round pick, and the team was fully invested. If Webb doesn't make it, he was a low third round pick, what are you going to do? Chances are, most third round picks are not going to be franchise guys.
All that said, it would be worse if Kyle L. didn't look good, but he did, so we have something to be optimistic about as far as a back goes.
Did you actually see what the completion % was league-wide for that week of games or did you just eyeball that many QB's had over a 70% completion rate?
You know what the completion rate was for the Week 1 preseason??
62.7%
Christ, you can't even prove your own point using an example you cherry picked!!
Fucking ponderous.
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Some of the agendas here are very tiresome. We get it, you don't like Davis Webb - you think we should have taken a QB instead of Barkley. You think Eli is finished.
The idea that there's this large contingent of "Pro-Webb" people on this board is a joke. There's barely anyone who is bullish on Webb or has unrealistic expectations. He looked like shit against Cleveland. Lauletta looked better and had zero experience. Let's see if Webb improves on Friday or if he struggles again.
Good post. Other than Webb fanboy sxdxca, I don't see any overtly "pro-Webb" posters. Just many of us, including me, intrigued by his talent. That said, his performance last week is concerning, mainly in that he played right into most of the criticisms levied against him - that he struggled with accuracy down the field.
To use the argument that he played in exhibitions last year is a silly argument. There was no pressure last year, as he was a 3rd round pick that no one was counting on to be anything more than a 3rd string clipboard carrier. The stakes are MUCH different this year, both with opportunity and risk.
He has a very real chance to win the #2 job, and even be the heir apparent to Eli, but there is also a new administration with no capital invested in him. So it isn't shocking that he might have been overly amped or nervous or a bit of both.
It's almost like "wait and see" is no longer an acceptable approach. I don't understand it.
People make up their minds the day these guys are drafted, find any shred of evidence that supports their claim - even when it's a tiny sample or inconclusive - scream from the heavens about it, but then ignore anything that doesn't.
Posters on this thread have very clear agendas and value their own opinions more than they probably should.
I'm pro-GIANTS. I am rooting for Davis and want him to succeed and am willing to give him more time.
Am I blind to the fact that he was garbage last week? Of course not. He sucked. Plain and simple. Cleveland also supposedly "game planned" for this game while we really didn't. I'm sure he was very amped up and jittery. If you're Davis Webb, this preseason literally can determine his entire future. Which seems dramatic - but it's true in a lot of ways.
More poor showings and Webb will go the way of Ryan Nassib pretty quickly. But if he shows signs of progress and encouragement, it will bode really well for him. He has a LOT riding on these next few weeks. Hard to ignore that aspect of this. Webb is going out there knowing this might be the only shot he ever really gets at this - there's a lot riding on it for him.
All I want to see is a better showing on Friday. If we get that, great. If he looks bad again, then hey... give Lauletta more time and try to get a better look at him so we can figure out who is really our best option should anything happen to Eli.
It's okay to be a little patient sometimes. A lot of posters here just seem to not be capable of it.
I guess when you really want to go all the way in, you just start making up figures to support a bullshit argument.
My evidence is my own. I looked at the entire NFL is week 1 and compiled it. It is linked. The vast majority were about 70%. Webb was at 41% and was 80th of 83 QBs
Now unless this was some unique occurrence in NFL history, this was a typical week in nfl preseason
What is your evidence and where did you get it?
I feel like Seinfeld in the car reservation line.
"You're doing compiling all over the place (arms waving wildly), but you aren't LOOKING at what you compiled. And that's the key - understanding what you've compiled......
You keep saying the evidence is your own, yet you really don't understand anything other than just listing the completion stats.
602 completions in 960 attempts is : 62.7%
Because I'm a Giants fan.
Regardless, I think it's important to note that many of the reviews of Webb from practice and training camp have said that he is the goods and looks better than anyone else on the roster under center. Raanan and Pat Traina have particularly been very bullish on him, as I recall.
So let's not make a final judgment based on a couple of quarters of play, shall we?
How in the world does BBI "giving Davis more time" impact what actually happens? You make it sound as though there is cause and effect between what people post here has some effect upon what decisions the Giants make on a player.
IMO, the entire issue of Webb "being ready" or "not ready" is a completely bogus issue. He was not drafted with the assumption he was going to be ready to play last year or this year. He is a project and remains a project. If he gets cut this year, it won't be because he wasn't good enough to be Manning's heir apparent - it will be because he wasn't good enough for the Giants keeping him around as a long term 3-5 year project.
But I do believe the Giants wanting to go forward with Eli could have skewed their evaluations of Darnold and the others.
Like everyone, you can always find reasons to make the choice you want to, it s called rationalization
I m not suggesting they were wrong about Barkley, but I m confident they were wrong about Darnold not being worth the value there
The league wide average was 62.7% - bear in mind that most major starters didnt really play so we are talking mostly backups and worse.
And Davis Webb was was 40.7%
So again, how on Earth does this help Davis Webb??? He was that bad.
But- I had said “most QBs throw 70%” - I didnt say the average.
The point of my post on the QB % was that nearly all of the QBs were over 50% - if you read it. 72 QBs out of 83 threw 50% and he couldnt do that.
And lastly, my point on Hackenberg was mocking. You compare to Simms and Eli and say hey they had crappy throws. Well I say even Hackenberg could look good in the preseason.
I mean you realize how dumb this is right?
twostepgiants : 10:54 am : link : reply
How on Earth does this help the argument Davis Webb?
The league wide average was 62.7% - bear in mind that most major starters didnt really play so we are talking mostly backups and worse.
And Davis Webb was was 40.7%
So again, how on Earth does this help Davis Webb??? He was that bad.
I wasn't trying to prove anything about Webb. I was producing evidence to refute a shitty, false point.
Like I said above - why make up something to try and argue a point. It is useless and takes away from any possible point you might have.
What you did was prove how bad Webb is
By your own admission and numbers, the league average was 62.7% and Webb was 41%
And you think this helps you!
Classic
We went from arguing over one pass and saying everyone does it to confirming that Webb was 21% worse than the average QB in week 1.
Great job, I couldn’t have said it better myself
Making up shit by pulling it out of your ass isn't going to strengthen anything
And you think this helps you!
Of course it helps me. I'm the one who said your stat was complete bullshit. Why am I supposed to be making Webb look good again?
The questions would be: If the evidence is so overwhelmingly there that webb sucks, why the fuck do you have to make up stats to try and support it??
“Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.”
You said that.
By your own math you showed that the average was 62.7% in week 1
So where is your evidence showing that the regular season completion percentage is 69.7% of all NFL QBs?
The all time NFL leader is 66.9% so this should be quite the evidence.
Or maybe you should just admit that you made it up
And admit my larger point was true. Its a lot easier for QBs to complete passes in the preseason
I said the preseason games average 7% lower completion rate than regular season games.
One fucking week isn't a benchmark. Last week at 62.7% doesn't mean that all or most preseason games have that %!!
Dude, stay away from stats - as you seemingly know shit about them and yet feel confident in stating made up ones as fact.
This is absolutely a waste of time.
Provide a link
I said the preseason games average 7% lower completion rate than regular season games.
One fucking week isn't a benchmark. Last week at 62.7% doesn't mean that all or most preseason games have that %!!
Dude, stay away from stats - as you seemingly know shit about them and yet feel confident in stating made up ones as fact.
This is absolutely a waste of time.
Is your argument that week 1 of the preseason is so far outside of the norm?
Because getting 7% below the NFL average is going to be pretty tough.
What you did was prove how bad Webb is
By your own admission and numbers, the league average was 62.7% and Webb was 41%
And you think this helps you!
Classic
We went from arguing over one pass and saying everyone does it to confirming that Webb was 21% worse than the average QB in week 1.
Great job, I couldn’t have said it better myself
Maybe you are too dense to understand but no one is defending Webb’s completetuon percentage. We are A. Saying your arbitrary numbers were pulled out of your ass and also incorrect and B. Are saying that we should give him time before coming to a final conclusion about his place on this team, because, you know, that’s what the preaseason is for.....
Lastly apply this logic to all players, this isn’t specific to Webb. Not sure if you realize that or not but there it is...
WHERE IS THIS INFO COMING FROM?
You said I made mine up. I gave you where I came up with it. I, of course said most QBs threw 70%. You came back with the “average is 62.7% - which isnt the same thing but fine, maybe my numbers a bit off but I made nothing up
Where is your evidence?
I can’t believe I just typed that by the way.
I can’t believe I just typed that by the way.
You have evidence proving this point?
“Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.”
Where?
Where is your evidence?
I refuted your point - by providing exactly what the completion % was in Week 1, and by the way, the number of QB's with 70% was less than the number who had 70%, so even that point was false.
You can keep showing your complete lack of understanding by providing evidence my stats were wrong. Maybe you'll learn something along the way.....
This is so fucking ridiculous. Apparently you aren't taking away the key point - STOP MAKING SHIT UP!!!
I was a bit off but the numbers show he was 21% worse.
My larger point is true.
FatMans point was that the preseason numbers are worse than regular season and therefore Webb wasnt as bad.
That’s what he challenged me with.
His larger point is wrong.
Im waiting for the evidence to show this:
“Preseason games have on average a 7% less rate of completions than regular season games.”
Ironically, you were 7% off the claim....
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You said I made mine up. I gave you where I came up with it. I, of course said most QBs threw 70%. You came back with the “average is 62.7% - which isnt the same thing but fine, maybe my numbers a bit off but I made nothing up
Where is your evidence?
I refuted your point - by providing exactly what the completion % was in Week 1, and by the way, the number of QB's with 70% was less than the number who had 70%, so even that point was false.
You can keep showing your complete lack of understanding by providing evidence my stats were wrong. Maybe you'll learn something along the way.....
This is so fucking ridiculous. Apparently you aren't taking away the key point - STOP MAKING SHIT UP!!!
Classic.
Prove me wrong
You accused me of making it up when you in fact made it up.
My point was that you were full of shit. I have actually said nothing about Webb in this thread.
What I did was show evidence that the 70% figure was complete bullshit, and it popped out because traditionally the completion % is lower in preseason.
Are you being purposely dense? Because it sure seems that way.
Ball is in your court, Chief.
If it's that you are making the argument that the Giants should have drafted Darnold, get over it.
Maybe you should take two steps back from the keyboard and rethink your argument.
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FatMans point was that the preseason numbers are worse than regular season and therefore Webb wasnt as bad.
My point was that you were full of shit. I have actually said nothing about Webb in this thread.
What I did was show evidence that the 70% figure was complete bullshit, and it popped out because traditionally the completion % is lower in preseason.
Are you being purposely dense? Because it sure seems that way.
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@MattLombardoNFL
It’s almost like Davis Webb turned the calendar back two months. Looks as good today as he did during May OTAs and minicamp
Ball is in your court, Chief.
You made it up. You can admit it
Or are you a stat-challenged as you appear in this thread?
My sole contribution to this thread was to show that the 70% figure was bullshit - because you are consistently a horrible poster who makes shit up. Is it too difficult for you to do the same?
Go ahead and prove me wrong.
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@MattLombardoNFL
It’s almost like Davis Webb turned the calendar back two months. Looks as good today as he did during May OTAs and minicamp
This DOES NOT belong on this thread..😎😎
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I'm pro-GIANTS. I am rooting for Davis and want him to succeed and am willing to give him more time.
How in the world does BBI "giving Davis more time" impact what actually happens? You make it sound as though there is cause and effect between what people post here has some effect upon what decisions the Giants make on a player.
IMO, the entire issue of Webb "being ready" or "not ready" is a completely bogus issue. He was not drafted with the assumption he was going to be ready to play last year or this year. He is a project and remains a project. If he gets cut this year, it won't be because he wasn't good enough to be Manning's heir apparent - it will be because he wasn't good enough for the Giants keeping him around as a long term 3-5 year project.
I made it sound like people's opinions of Webb effect how he plays or doesn't play? If thats what you got from my post, you suck at reading comprehension.
That wasn't the point at all.
Get it? Pretty simple stuff.
Who's Elijah?
62% (+/- 7%) went on to play in at least 1 Pro Bowl.
Or trying to make up more BS to counter with!
I post this not to say Webb is anything yet, however my point is its way too early to make any decision whatsoever. For example, if he practices well and then plays well against the Lions, then again against the Pats, that 1 qtr against the Browns will mean nothing. It will just be chaulked up to nerves on the first game.
I'll say again that any snaps he gets are wasted. They should actively be trying to fill his spot on the roster with someone else.
Funny you say 35 years because Simms showed some glimpses but was up and down or hurt from 79-83.
Plus we all know a good qb never ever ever ever struggles out of the gate.
But when I watched him last week..........
Can you take some time to let this thing materialize?
My god people...
Sunk cost.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
No idea if that’s directed at me or not but again, who’s not seeing the truth? Not everyone shares your views, not everyone is pessimistic about just about everything. None of us have any control over what happens with Webb. So you can beat a drum about him being terrible or you can see how it unfolds over the next 3 games.
Beyond that, I thought I remembered seeing some good things from him last preseason. Last week obviously put a very sour taste in people's mouths.
But we have 3 games left - it's worth giving him a good amount of time. Eli should not need to play more than a quarter in any of these games, honestly. Webb and Lauletta need to be getting the majority of these reps so we can figure out if either guy is capable of backing #10 up or if we need to look elsewhere.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
I wasn't speaking directly about your opinion.
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
It's not too early is your opinion - I don't think it's necessarily true or factual. I think giving up on a guy who has basically played grand total of one preseason game and has never even thrown a pass in one that counts and is only in his 2nd year is a bit premature.
Draft picks are precious assets. If you're going to dump a guy in year 2, you better be sure he's worthless. I personally don't think that's provable yet, and it doesn't seem like Pat Shurmur thinks so, either - and I'd say he knows just a tad more about the QB position than any of us do.
Lauletta isn't going to play every snap - this is the time to find out if Webb can give the Giants any reason to continue along with him or not.
I didn't think Webb was awful against the Patriots last year in the preseason finale. He made a couple nice plays.
To me, the Giants have nothing to really lose by giving Webb more preseason work to draw a better conclusion. If he doesn't show any improvement by the end of the month, cut bait and look for a vet to shake loose from somewhere else.
Draft picks are indeed precious, and Reese wasted this one as he wasted many others his last few years here. That's part of the reason why he's gone.
Another part of the reason he's gone is that this team has a culture of giving its own guys the benefit of the doubt way too often. Instead of putting the onus on the players to not give the coaches a choice but to play them, this team has given guys opportunities they don't deserve. For the last 5 years or so incompetence and even abject stupidity (we rewarded a guy that blew his hand off with a contract extension) has been rewarded with opportunity.
I've got nothing against Davis Webb. By all accounts he works hard. So do lots of other people in the world...that doesn't make them qualified to be an NFL quarterback.
The "lets wait and see if things get better" approach is why this team has been a pathetic loser for the last 5 years.
The Rams should have just cut him then and there.
No. Just smarter than you.
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Man, I'm just surprised no one has hired you as a GM yet - you seem to be so much smarter than everyone else!
No. Just smarter than you.
Haha. Keep telling yourself that. No one loves your opinions more than you do.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a rookie struggling to get up to NFL speed and a guy that after a full year in the NFL still has not mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing quarterback.
Besides, you should be comparing Webb to Lauletta, not Goff. That's what matters to this team. And Lauletta in his very first NFL taste looked like he knew how to throw a football. Webb does not, despite the advantage of having spent a year on an NFL team.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
"Davis likes directing traffic. That's kind of who he is."
After the snap, Webb showed off his cannon for an arm, which -- behind his brain and confident personality -- is his best attribute. He boasts an arm as pure as Lannister gold. He can throw from every platform. He doesn't need his feet to be set. He can make every throw required of an NFL quarterback.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
One note on this is that the WR's all (or mostly all) graduated with Goff, so Webb was working with all freshman, sophomores, and I believe 1 junior.
Look...I can link stuff too:
Here's Sy's scouting report:
Summary: Fourth year senior that graduated from Texas Tech early and was able to transfer to California for a graduate season. He earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2017, replacing last year’s top overall pick Jared Goff. Webb took advantage of his opportunity and displayed an NFL ability. His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup.
*Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.
Upside Pro Comparison: Brock Osweiler – CLE
Here's the "Weaknesses" and "Bottom Line" from the NFL.com scouting report:
WEAKNESSES
Robotic decision-making. Decision on where to go with ball seems predetermined despite coverages. Needs to get better at manipulating safeties with his eyes. Inconsistent velocity to sideline causes nose of ball to dip. Drive throws sometime sail. Has slow setup in pocket with excessive pre-release steps. Cornerbacks contest too many throws due to lack of anticipation. Timing passes must come out sooner. Plagued by accuracy issues and decision-making outside the numbers on both intermediate and deep throws. Five of his 12 interceptions in 2016 were along deep sidelines due to under-throws and failure to read safety help. Touch and placement are an issue when forced to leave the pocket. Not a factor as a scrambler.
BOTTOM LINE
System quarterback with more than 65 percent of his attempts coming inside of 10 yards. Webb has enough raw talent to be considered a developmental prospect, but his decision-making and accuracy issues beyond 10 yards is a big red flag that might be tough to overcome in the NFL.
Here's Walter Football:
Poor decision-making
Pre-determines too many throws
Stares down receivers, reads
Needs to improve reading defenses, reading coverage
Will need to learn operating a huddle
Will need to learn working under center
Will need to learn and improve footwork
Lacks composure when faced with a rush
Gets happy feet
Gets rattled by the rush
Pressure effects his accuracy
Seeing a theme? I'm seeing terms like "mechanics", "decision making", "footwork", and "reading a defense". I know it's not the Cal coaches talking, but silly me I'm going to listen to more to objective scouts.
And after a year in pro football we see those things playing out on the field. I'll concede that it's possible he'll improve these next three weeks. I don't have a crystal ball.
But I know what I think is going to happen.
And his first year in the league, he was terrible. He started 7 games, threw 5 TD's and 7 picks. He had an 18.9 QBR. Absolutely pitiful.
If you were watching him that year and he was a Giant, I bet you would have said a lot of the same shit. "This guy can't play. Not an NFL QB. Cut bait"
Some QB's need time to develop. This is probably the most difficult position to play in all of pro sports.
I literally see no point whatsoever in not giving Webb another snap this preseason. There's nothing to gain. He was always considered a developmental guy. You don't draft a guy like that and then cut bait after one season where he didn't even get a shot to play in a game that mattered with starters.
This isn't me saying hold onto him for the entirety of his rookie contract or keep doing this for 3 more years. I'm literally just saying to give him more reps over the next 3 weeks and see if he shows any sign of progress. If he doesn't, move on. It's not really an absurd stance to have nor is it detrimental to the Giants to do that.
And besides that, there's nothing in common between the two. I'll go back to Sy's scouting report on Goff:
Third year junior. Two time team captain. Semifinalist for the Davey O’Brien Quarterback Award in 2015. Has started all 38 possible games over his three year career. Goff has been re-writing the California record book since the day he stepped on campus. He checks off almost every box on the list when it comes ability, leadership, and off-field behavior. He has elite-level accuracy and touch in addition to consistent lower body mechanics and release points. Goff is as poised and as tough as it gets. His only main drawback a lack of bulk. He will need to gain weight and strength to ensure he can bounce back from the increasing physical nature of the game. There is a sense of smoothness, toughness, and patience here that is tough to find wrapped up in to one QB. While the frame concerns me like it did with Sam Bradford a few years ago, I think Goff will be able to handle the hits and stay on track. All in all, Goff will be one of the class’ elite prospects and very possibly the first quarterback taken.
"Consistent lower body mechanics and release points", "poised and as tough as it gets", "Elite level accuracy and touch". Did you read anything like that in Webb's scouting report?
I suppose it's possible Sy doesn't know what he's talking about. But given that Goff was the first pick overall and a playoff QB in his second year, and Webb was a third rounder that doesn't look like he knows how to throw a ball, I'm going to go with Sy on this one. Here's a Sy in his required reading "What I would have done" post-draft analysis:
Last week did you see anything other than what Sy wrote there? I did not. If anything, what we saw was worse.
So you ask: what's the harm in letting him stick around? To me, that's the mentality that makes this team shitty. Why aren't you asking, "What has Webb done to show he deserves a spot on the team?"
The answer is nothing. The only argument in his favor is we spent a third round pick on him. And that line of thinking is why this team sucks until proven otherwise.
Sy has his opinions and I respect them, but there are a billion scouts out there. I could easily go find scouting reports that say different things than his do. None of that shit is gospel.
Again, Jared Goff was utterly terrible as a rookie. He started 7 games and had a sub-20 QBR. Using your logic, what did he do to deserve staying in LA at that point? He was awful. He had a terrible preseason as a rookie, and his performance in games that counted was just as bad.
You're expecting a team to operate in a way that they simply do not operate. This has nothing to do with the Giants. Teams don't draft QB's in the 3rd round and then just get rid of them the very next season when they've thrown like 50 passes TOTAL on NFL fields in games that don't even count.
You can sit here and clamor for the Giants to not give him a single snap again and get rid of him all you want. They're not going to do that because that's not how teams develop players.
The funny thing is that I don't even think much of Davis Webb at all. I think Kyle Lauletta is far more interesting. I just think it's pointless to think the Giants are going to cut Webb off here. You keep repeating that they should, but they aren't going to and I'm fairly certain most other teams wouldn't either. Not now.
You've already conceded that it's possible he shows improvement. It's not symptomatic of a larger issue to give a 2nd year QB reps in the preseason.
You're also forgetting that this is now a completely different system than the one he learned last year. So, he's essentially a rookie again now. This is all brand new. Nothing is carrying over from last year. The staff is different, the coach is different, and a bunch of the players are too.
I'm really just wasting words here. I believe Webb should continue to get reps this preseason. If he shows us something, we move forward. If he has 2-3 more showings like last week, that's it. Our only major disagreement is that you're in a rush to ditch him right this second and I don't see any benefit to doing so. That's really all it boils down to.
What we have with Webb is not a learning curve issue, though. Besides having all the regular difficulties you'd associate with a young QB, he has deeper fundamental deficiencies that were never apparent in Goff, Eli, or any other successful NFL QB that endured a rough rookie start.
Put simply: he doesn't know how to throw a football at an NFL level. Not in a game situation, anyway. I'm sure in practice he looks great...but in a game situation under a pass rush is when you see the true mechanics come out. And the truth is Webb's are deeply, deeply flawed.
On a side note, I noticed the same issue with Josh Allen for the Bills. As their game went along his release point got lower and lower. Obviously his arm strength isn't an issue, but his accuracy is going to be erratic unless he gets his mechanics under control.
Also, you didn't answer my question - how many teams have given up on a 3rd rd QB after 1 preseason game in his 2nd season without there being any outside reason for doing so (i.e.. character issues, etc) ?
Your assessment of Webb really isn't much different than mine. I am just not seeing the rush in cutting the entire thing off here. Not everyone in the Giants org thinks Davis Webb is already a sunk cost and it doesn't have to reflect an organizational flaw for them to stick with him a little longer.
I just don't see how it harms the Giants to give this guy the rest of the preseason. I'm not even advocating anything beyond that. I think that's more than fair - and realistic.
Cutting bait right this second is not. It's just not something teams typically do, and the Giants aren't going to do that here either.
And to answer your other question, Webb IS adjusting to the pro game too...so do you think that makes it more or less likely he is going to be able to completely revolutionize his fundamentals? Is that going to be an easy thing for him to do while learning the pro game? There's a reason teams tend not to draft quarterbacks that are bad at throwing footballs...the job is already difficult enough without having to teach them how to physically throw a ball.
And I've already outlined the cost of keeping Webb around. Those are snaps Lauletta doesn't get. Those are snaps that we can't properly assess our offensive depth players because the offense simply can not function with Webb under center.
And here's a question I've got for you: what is gained by keeping Webb around? We hope that he learns how to throw in a few weeks AND grasps the difficulties of an NFL offense? Wouldn't we be ahead of the game if we just replaced him with someone who knows how to throw?
Face it - Webb was drafted by Jerry Reese, a guy with a .000 batting average in drafting and developing QBs. He was drafted because he physically looks the part, even if he can't actually play the position - a mistake we've known Reese to make many times at many positions.
Finally, I'll quote Mike Lombardi from this week's GM Street podcast: "The Giants don't have a backup quarterback."
We don't.
It's likely Webb won't pan out. Not definite. But you keep saying it like it's definite. If this were the case, Pat Shurmur wouldn't be wasting his time on this guy. One thing Shurmur knows is QB's. If he's sticking with this, despite the guy who drafted Webb not even being here any longer, I will defer to him and think that there's probably a reason for it.
You asked me what is gained by keeping him around and to me, it's a simple matter of comparing risk/reward. There is virtually zero risk associated with giving him more time this preseason, but there is potential reward if he improves and winds up being a capable player.
Kyle Lauletta doesn't need to play every snap in these games. Josh Johnson was the type of QB that preseason snaps were completely wasted on because he had been around long enough where it was crystal clear that he simply wasn't good and wasn't going to get any better.
You're making it sound like it's going to set the Giants back 10 years by giving a QB in his 2nd year preseason snaps. I don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you or why you're so desperate to see the guy get cut off right this second.
Bottom line is this: the Giants aren't going to do what you want them to do because there's no reason to do it.
For one thing, several said here he couldn't be counted on to play a game on a 2 win team in December because he still didn't know how to take a snap under center. If that were true then, he has certainly progressed. I saw him take the right number of steps in his drop back multiple times.
It also appeared he was more comfortable operating in the pocket.
He also didn't turn the ball over. Truth be told, he did make an ill-advised throw (or two) into coverage, but that happens to a lot of QB's who make more than 20 attempts in a game. That's actually a sign of a guy who is confident in his arm to make a play. That can be both a positive and a negative.
What worries me is his lack of feel for both accuracy and touch. I'm with Shurmur who says arm strength isn't as important as accuracy when it comes to evaluating QB's. I'd feel much better about Webb if he could start to show more consistent accuracy.
Having said that, I've lived with Eli and enjoyed the highs of a guy who can come out and throw the most beautiful balls and play lights out for many games, then have stretches of horrible play where he throws off target and without great touch. If Eli can succeed, I think Webb has a chance to be successful in the NFL.
I'm not pro-Webb either, btw. I'm in his corner as long as he's designated the #2 behind Eli by the coaching staff. That's simply because of two things:
1. I have a lot less info than they do about his performance, including what he did vs. what he should have done.
2. I have a lot less experience than they do at evaluating QB's and their performance.
Given Shurmur's reputation I don't know how any serious Giants fan can expect to be better than he is at determining who should be #2.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
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he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
I don't know enough about the mechanics of playing QB to know whether or not his throwing problems are related to taking dropbacks or not. One of other knocks against Webb is that he can be a bit slow to read and process the field. If that was the case in a shotgun offense, it could be exacerbated even more by having to play under center.
I'm actually really looking forward to tonight to get another look at the QB's.
Like I said in another thread - Webb doesn't have to be perfect. All I want to see is a TD drive. I want to see some poise, some more accurate throws. Hopefully at least 60%. He doesn't have to go 20-25 and throw for 275 yards and 3 TD. Just show me that there's a reason to think last week was a hiccup and not where he's really at in is development (or lack-thereof)
If he sucks again, give Lauletta all of the snaps Eli doesn't take next week and then in Game 4, give Lauletta 3 quarters.
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Man, I'm just surprised no one has hired you as a GM yet - you seem to be so much smarter than everyone else!
No. Just smarter than you.
Bump.
Webb basically had a complete opposite game from last week. Showed improvement, threw a good ball, made reads, etc. but yeah, just cut him.
I'm not surprised you'd think he did well, though.
I'm not surprised you'd think he did well, though.
So you’d still cut him right now?
Boy you think way too much of your opinions...
The funniest part about it is we all agree he likely won’t be the answer as Eli’s replacement, we are simply supporting the notion that time and reps could get him to turn the corner.
Give Lauletta a ton of reps, then keep an eye on who shakes loose around the league.
The only thing that isn’t surprising here is that you won’t concede anything because you think you know so much more than everyone else. Exactly what I expected.
You're the dipshit that bumped the thread. I'm not the stubborn one.
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And you’d still cut him right now. Amazing. The stubbornness is unparalleled.
You're the dipshit that bumped the thread. I'm not the stubborn one.
Oh yeah. You aren’t stubborn at all. How many times did you say Beckham was an asshole or harp on any of the other obsessive sticking points you’ve had over the years?
Cmon dude. You’re at the point now where you’re trying to frame mechanics being more important than results. Think about that. You want to cut a QB who was just drafted last year after his best preseason showing because you care that much about being right.
I actually like the back and forths we have because we basically agree on nothing. I’m definitely stubborn sometimes. But when I am wrong, I have no problem admitting it. Not sure I can say the same for you, bud.
This is the deal with college football now and it’s the job of guys like Shurmur to break players out of bad habits, harness what’s good, and try to put together a more polished final product. It’s called professional coaching.
So when I see reports of Davis Webb’s poor mechanics from his college days, I pretty much don’t give a shit. If Shurmur can correct some of it, even just a moderate amount, it could lead to promising results.
Lauletta looks much smoother and natural.
Still pretty early but I’m enjoying this competition. It was one of the things I was most looking forward to all offseason.
Last night was very positive for the QBs. Lauletta sailed a few throws and was a little off at times but he also again flashed and I really don't think the arm strength is going to be a problem. Loved the TD run. Eli hasn't been able to move anything like that in about a decade so it was kind of fun to see a Giants QB make a play with his legs.
Preseason is preseason but I think sometimes the results matter more for teams in certain situations and I think this team really needed to win a game like this and put some points on the board. It was important to have something positive to build on. I'm happy with what I saw last night and think it was a step in the right direction.
Throw those guys into the mix and I'd think that opens things up quite a bit more.
14 yard TD run, Week 4. First rushing TD of for the Giants last season and longest run from scrimmage up to that point - ( New Window )
I hope we remember Eli's legacy, which we should all treasure, and was marked by consistency as a pro even though the results on the field were regularly inconsistent.
Will he be a quality pro quarterback? Dunno, but there is at least evidence that he has a shot, after a nice game two. Claiming that he can't improve from here seems more than a little crazy, imo.