And a good work ethic are all you need to be successful. The NFL is littered with the failures of plenty of QB prospects exactly like Webb. People eat up this fluff about him being the hardest working man in the locker room like hard working players are some rare unicorn. Plenty of guys have the desire to succeed, put in the hours, and just aren't NFL good.
his good characteristics and stating his good characteristics will make him succeed.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
When your rooting interest colors what you see you aren't seeing the truth.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
No idea if that’s directed at me or not but again, who’s not seeing the truth? Not everyone shares your views, not everyone is pessimistic about just about everything. None of us have any control over what happens with Webb. So you can beat a drum about him being terrible or you can see how it unfolds over the next 3 games.
To this point there is no evidence from his college or pep performance that he can play in the NFL. That's an objective analysis. The rest is hope - which is how we've been doing business the last five years.
I have little faith in Webb becoming useful at all, but it's still too early to declare it a sunk cost. I think we need to see a little more than like 40 minutes of preseason football - or whatever the total time he's played to this point has been - before we throw in the towel on the guy.
Beyond that, I thought I remembered seeing some good things from him last preseason. Last week obviously put a very sour taste in people's mouths.
But we have 3 games left - it's worth giving him a good amount of time. Eli should not need to play more than a quarter in any of these games, honestly. Webb and Lauletta need to be getting the majority of these reps so we can figure out if either guy is capable of backing #10 up or if we need to look elsewhere.
RE: There’s a huge difference between pointing out Â
his good characteristics and stating his good characteristics will make him succeed.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
He's a second year player. We're not talking about a couple missed reads here and there. We're talking about a guy that hasn't mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing the position. Why waste another snap teaching someone how to play quarterback?
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
I'm disappointed in this first look at Webb. Yes, there were timing and rust issues, and they were not all Davis. The Dumps and Flares and some Patterns were off time for much of his run.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
I'm disappointed in this first look at Webb. Yes, there were timing and rust issues, and they were not all Davis. The Dumps and Flares and some Patterns were off time for much of his run.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
He's a second year player. We're not talking about a couple missed reads here and there. We're talking about a guy that hasn't mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing the position. Why waste another snap teaching someone how to play quarterback?
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
It's not too early is your opinion - I don't think it's necessarily true or factual. I think giving up on a guy who has basically played grand total of one preseason game and has never even thrown a pass in one that counts and is only in his 2nd year is a bit premature.
Draft picks are precious assets. If you're going to dump a guy in year 2, you better be sure he's worthless. I personally don't think that's provable yet, and it doesn't seem like Pat Shurmur thinks so, either - and I'd say he knows just a tad more about the QB position than any of us do.
Lauletta isn't going to play every snap - this is the time to find out if Webb can give the Giants any reason to continue along with him or not.
I didn't think Webb was awful against the Patriots last year in the preseason finale. He made a couple nice plays.
To me, the Giants have nothing to really lose by giving Webb more preseason work to draw a better conclusion. If he doesn't show any improvement by the end of the month, cut bait and look for a vet to shake loose from somewhere else.
He hasn't mastered the basics in years - maybe the light will turn on and he'll learn basic body mechanics in 3 weeks.
Draft picks are indeed precious, and Reese wasted this one as he wasted many others his last few years here. That's part of the reason why he's gone.
Another part of the reason he's gone is that this team has a culture of giving its own guys the benefit of the doubt way too often. Instead of putting the onus on the players to not give the coaches a choice but to play them, this team has given guys opportunities they don't deserve. For the last 5 years or so incompetence and even abject stupidity (we rewarded a guy that blew his hand off with a contract extension) has been rewarded with opportunity.
I've got nothing against Davis Webb. By all accounts he works hard. So do lots of other people in the world...that doesn't make them qualified to be an NFL quarterback.
The "lets wait and see if things get better" approach is why this team has been a pathetic loser for the last 5 years.
He wasn't questioned as being a mechanical disaster in college.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a rookie struggling to get up to NFL speed and a guy that after a full year in the NFL still has not mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing quarterback.
Besides, you should be comparing Webb to Lauletta, not Goff. That's what matters to this team. And Lauletta in his very first NFL taste looked like he knew how to throw a football. Webb does not, despite the advantage of having spent a year on an NFL team.
Actually, Goff is the guy a lot of people compared Webb to as a guy who has a similar skillset - so he is relevant. They both played @ Cal and put up very similar numbers in their final year there.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
"We gave Davis a tremendous amount of freedom -- more than we gave Jared," Dykes says. "A lot of that has to do with what a guy is comfortable with. Certainly Jared had a great knowledge of our offense and what we were trying to do and everything, but I think he was a little more comfortable not having to direct traffic maybe not as much as Davis was.
"Davis likes directing traffic. That's kind of who he is."
After the snap, Webb showed off his cannon for an arm, which -- behind his brain and confident personality -- is his best attribute. He boasts an arm as pure as Lannister gold. He can throw from every platform. He doesn't need his feet to be set. He can make every throw required of an NFL quarterback.
Actually, Goff is the guy a lot of people compared Webb to as a guy who has a similar skillset - so he is relevant. They both played @ Cal and put up very similar numbers in their final year there.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
One note on this is that the WR's all (or mostly all) graduated with Goff, so Webb was working with all freshman, sophomores, and I believe 1 junior.
I don't know where you found that quote...but it reads like the Cal student newspaper.
Look...I can link stuff too:
Here's Sy's scouting report:
Quote:
6 – Davis Webb – California – 6’5/229: 74
Summary: Fourth year senior that graduated from Texas Tech early and was able to transfer to California for a graduate season. He earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2017, replacing last year’s top overall pick Jared Goff. Webb took advantage of his opportunity and displayed an NFL ability. His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup.
*Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.
Upside Pro Comparison: Brock Osweiler – CLE
Here's the "Weaknesses" and "Bottom Line" from the NFL.com scouting report:
Quote:
WEAKNESSES
Robotic decision-making. Decision on where to go with ball seems predetermined despite coverages. Needs to get better at manipulating safeties with his eyes. Inconsistent velocity to sideline causes nose of ball to dip. Drive throws sometime sail. Has slow setup in pocket with excessive pre-release steps. Cornerbacks contest too many throws due to lack of anticipation. Timing passes must come out sooner. Plagued by accuracy issues and decision-making outside the numbers on both intermediate and deep throws. Five of his 12 interceptions in 2016 were along deep sidelines due to under-throws and failure to read safety help. Touch and placement are an issue when forced to leave the pocket. Not a factor as a scrambler.
BOTTOM LINE
System quarterback with more than 65 percent of his attempts coming inside of 10 yards. Webb has enough raw talent to be considered a developmental prospect, but his decision-making and accuracy issues beyond 10 yards is a big red flag that might be tough to overcome in the NFL.
Here's Walter Football:
Quote:
Weaknesses:
Poor decision-making
Pre-determines too many throws
Stares down receivers, reads
Needs to improve reading defenses, reading coverage
Will need to learn operating a huddle
Will need to learn working under center
Will need to learn and improve footwork
Lacks composure when faced with a rush
Gets happy feet
Gets rattled by the rush
Pressure effects his accuracy
Seeing a theme? I'm seeing terms like "mechanics", "decision making", "footwork", and "reading a defense". I know it's not the Cal coaches talking, but silly me I'm going to listen to more to objective scouts.
And after a year in pro football we see those things playing out on the field. I'll concede that it's possible he'll improve these next three weeks. I don't have a crystal ball.
They said many of the same thing about Goff. Go look. His pre-draft concerns were things like poor mechanics, throwing wildly, not being NFL ready, being a developmental prospect, being a guy who's college stats were inflated by the system he played in, etc.
And his first year in the league, he was terrible. He started 7 games, threw 5 TD's and 7 picks. He had an 18.9 QBR. Absolutely pitiful.
If you were watching him that year and he was a Giant, I bet you would have said a lot of the same shit. "This guy can't play. Not an NFL QB. Cut bait"
Some QB's need time to develop. This is probably the most difficult position to play in all of pro sports.
I literally see no point whatsoever in not giving Webb another snap this preseason. There's nothing to gain. He was always considered a developmental guy. You don't draft a guy like that and then cut bait after one season where he didn't even get a shot to play in a game that mattered with starters.
This isn't me saying hold onto him for the entirety of his rookie contract or keep doing this for 3 more years. I'm literally just saying to give him more reps over the next 3 weeks and see if he shows any sign of progress. If he doesn't, move on. It's not really an absurd stance to have nor is it detrimental to the Giants to do that.
Webb is not Goff. You think the Giants give a shit about what Goff did in college related to Webb?
And besides that, there's nothing in common between the two. I'll go back to Sy's scouting report on Goff:
Quote:
1 – JARED GOFF – 6’4/215 – California: 86
Third year junior. Two time team captain. Semifinalist for the Davey O’Brien Quarterback Award in 2015. Has started all 38 possible games over his three year career. Goff has been re-writing the California record book since the day he stepped on campus. He checks off almost every box on the list when it comes ability, leadership, and off-field behavior. He has elite-level accuracy and touch in addition to consistent lower body mechanics and release points. Goff is as poised and as tough as it gets. His only main drawback a lack of bulk. He will need to gain weight and strength to ensure he can bounce back from the increasing physical nature of the game. There is a sense of smoothness, toughness, and patience here that is tough to find wrapped up in to one QB. While the frame concerns me like it did with Sam Bradford a few years ago, I think Goff will be able to handle the hits and stay on track. All in all, Goff will be one of the class’ elite prospects and very possibly the first quarterback taken.
"Consistent lower body mechanics and release points", "poised and as tough as it gets", "Elite level accuracy and touch". Did you read anything like that in Webb's scouting report?
I suppose it's possible Sy doesn't know what he's talking about. But given that Goff was the first pick overall and a playoff QB in his second year, and Webb was a third rounder that doesn't look like he knows how to throw a ball, I'm going to go with Sy on this one. Here's a Sy in his required reading "What I would have done" post-draft analysis:
Quote:
Again, I don’t want to be considered someone that “criticizes” any of the NYG picks, because that is NOT my intention. I didn’t like this one for a few reasons but at the end of day, NYG needs to start planning for life after Eli Manning. Webb checks a lot of boxes. He has a PLUS arm with a plus frame, he is a smart kid, he loves the game and studies it endlessly. What bothers me the most here is what he struggled with in September, he still struggled with in November. If anything, it appeared he went backwards once teams got some tape on him. His issues revolve around presence in the pocket and decision making once his initial reads weren’t there. In addition, this is a guy that really struggled to complete the tough throws. These college offenses make it so easy to complete passes so when I see Davis struggle to complete the deep ball and/or struggle to make throws in to tight windows toward the sideline, it worries me that he may not have it. What he does have right now, is time. Webb has 2+ years to improve and put his best foot forward. We’ll see.
Last week did you see anything other than what Sy wrote there? I did not. If anything, what we saw was worse.
So you ask: what's the harm in letting him stick around? To me, that's the mentality that makes this team shitty. Why aren't you asking, "What has Webb done to show he deserves a spot on the team?"
The answer is nothing. The only argument in his favor is we spent a third round pick on him. And that line of thinking is why this team sucks until proven otherwise.
How many teams cut bait with QB's this soon? Show me a list of teams that gave a developmental prospect drafted in the third round one year where he got zero playing time in a game that mattered and let him go immediately after.
Sy has his opinions and I respect them, but there are a billion scouts out there. I could easily go find scouting reports that say different things than his do. None of that shit is gospel.
Again, Jared Goff was utterly terrible as a rookie. He started 7 games and had a sub-20 QBR. Using your logic, what did he do to deserve staying in LA at that point? He was awful. He had a terrible preseason as a rookie, and his performance in games that counted was just as bad.
You're expecting a team to operate in a way that they simply do not operate. This has nothing to do with the Giants. Teams don't draft QB's in the 3rd round and then just get rid of them the very next season when they've thrown like 50 passes TOTAL on NFL fields in games that don't even count.
You can sit here and clamor for the Giants to not give him a single snap again and get rid of him all you want. They're not going to do that because that's not how teams develop players.
The funny thing is that I don't even think much of Davis Webb at all. I think Kyle Lauletta is far more interesting. I just think it's pointless to think the Giants are going to cut Webb off here. You keep repeating that they should, but they aren't going to and I'm fairly certain most other teams wouldn't either. Not now.
You've already conceded that it's possible he shows improvement. It's not symptomatic of a larger issue to give a 2nd year QB reps in the preseason.
You're also forgetting that this is now a completely different system than the one he learned last year. So, he's essentially a rookie again now. This is all brand new. Nothing is carrying over from last year. The staff is different, the coach is different, and a bunch of the players are too.
I'm really just wasting words here. I believe Webb should continue to get reps this preseason. If he shows us something, we move forward. If he has 2-3 more showings like last week, that's it. Our only major disagreement is that you're in a rush to ditch him right this second and I don't see any benefit to doing so. That's really all it boils down to.
Goff was terrible as a rookie for a different reason than what makes Webb terrible now. Goff was adjusting to the pro game. Lots and lots of guys struggle as rookies...it's part of the learning curve and completely natural.
What we have with Webb is not a learning curve issue, though. Besides having all the regular difficulties you'd associate with a young QB, he has deeper fundamental deficiencies that were never apparent in Goff, Eli, or any other successful NFL QB that endured a rough rookie start.
Put simply: he doesn't know how to throw a football at an NFL level. Not in a game situation, anyway. I'm sure in practice he looks great...but in a game situation under a pass rush is when you see the true mechanics come out. And the truth is Webb's are deeply, deeply flawed.
On a side note, I noticed the same issue with Josh Allen for the Bills. As their game went along his release point got lower and lower. Obviously his arm strength isn't an issue, but his accuracy is going to be erratic unless he gets his mechanics under control.
Also, you didn't answer my question - how many teams have given up on a 3rd rd QB after 1 preseason game in his 2nd season without there being any outside reason for doing so (i.e.. character issues, etc) ?
Your assessment of Webb really isn't much different than mine. I am just not seeing the rush in cutting the entire thing off here. Not everyone in the Giants org thinks Davis Webb is already a sunk cost and it doesn't have to reflect an organizational flaw for them to stick with him a little longer.
I just don't see how it harms the Giants to give this guy the rest of the preseason. I'm not even advocating anything beyond that. I think that's more than fair - and realistic.
Cutting bait right this second is not. It's just not something teams typically do, and the Giants aren't going to do that here either.
I don't know the answer to your question. If you want to know, feel free to research it.
And to answer your other question, Webb IS adjusting to the pro game too...so do you think that makes it more or less likely he is going to be able to completely revolutionize his fundamentals? Is that going to be an easy thing for him to do while learning the pro game? There's a reason teams tend not to draft quarterbacks that are bad at throwing footballs...the job is already difficult enough without having to teach them how to physically throw a ball.
And I've already outlined the cost of keeping Webb around. Those are snaps Lauletta doesn't get. Those are snaps that we can't properly assess our offensive depth players because the offense simply can not function with Webb under center.
And here's a question I've got for you: what is gained by keeping Webb around? We hope that he learns how to throw in a few weeks AND grasps the difficulties of an NFL offense? Wouldn't we be ahead of the game if we just replaced him with someone who knows how to throw?
Face it - Webb was drafted by Jerry Reese, a guy with a .000 batting average in drafting and developing QBs. He was drafted because he physically looks the part, even if he can't actually play the position - a mistake we've known Reese to make many times at many positions.
Finally, I'll quote Mike Lombardi from this week's GM Street podcast: "The Giants don't have a backup quarterback."
Again, though - you're stating your opinion as fact.
It's likely Webb won't pan out. Not definite. But you keep saying it like it's definite. If this were the case, Pat Shurmur wouldn't be wasting his time on this guy. One thing Shurmur knows is QB's. If he's sticking with this, despite the guy who drafted Webb not even being here any longer, I will defer to him and think that there's probably a reason for it.
You asked me what is gained by keeping him around and to me, it's a simple matter of comparing risk/reward. There is virtually zero risk associated with giving him more time this preseason, but there is potential reward if he improves and winds up being a capable player.
Kyle Lauletta doesn't need to play every snap in these games. Josh Johnson was the type of QB that preseason snaps were completely wasted on because he had been around long enough where it was crystal clear that he simply wasn't good and wasn't going to get any better.
You're making it sound like it's going to set the Giants back 10 years by giving a QB in his 2nd year preseason snaps. I don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you or why you're so desperate to see the guy get cut off right this second.
Bottom line is this: the Giants aren't going to do what you want them to do because there's no reason to do it.
Actually, what I saw in the game wasn't great from Webb... Â
but it would be incorrect to say that he hasn't progressed at all.
For one thing, several said here he couldn't be counted on to play a game on a 2 win team in December because he still didn't know how to take a snap under center. If that were true then, he has certainly progressed. I saw him take the right number of steps in his drop back multiple times.
It also appeared he was more comfortable operating in the pocket.
He also didn't turn the ball over. Truth be told, he did make an ill-advised throw (or two) into coverage, but that happens to a lot of QB's who make more than 20 attempts in a game. That's actually a sign of a guy who is confident in his arm to make a play. That can be both a positive and a negative.
What worries me is his lack of feel for both accuracy and touch. I'm with Shurmur who says arm strength isn't as important as accuracy when it comes to evaluating QB's. I'd feel much better about Webb if he could start to show more consistent accuracy.
Having said that, I've lived with Eli and enjoyed the highs of a guy who can come out and throw the most beautiful balls and play lights out for many games, then have stretches of horrible play where he throws off target and without great touch. If Eli can succeed, I think Webb has a chance to be successful in the NFL.
I'm not pro-Webb either, btw. I'm in his corner as long as he's designated the #2 behind Eli by the coaching staff. That's simply because of two things:
1. I have a lot less info than they do about his performance, including what he did vs. what he should have done.
2. I have a lot less experience than they do at evaluating QB's and their performance.
Given Shurmur's reputation I don't know how any serious Giants fan can expect to be better than he is at determining who should be #2.
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
I don't know enough about the mechanics of playing QB to know whether or not his throwing problems are related to taking dropbacks or not. One of other knocks against Webb is that he can be a bit slow to read and process the field. If that was the case in a shotgun offense, it could be exacerbated even more by having to play under center.
Look, I think it's fair to say that we all need to see more out of Webb starting tonight - otherwise this experiment won't last long.
I'm actually really looking forward to tonight to get another look at the QB's.
Like I said in another thread - Webb doesn't have to be perfect. All I want to see is a TD drive. I want to see some poise, some more accurate throws. Hopefully at least 60%. He doesn't have to go 20-25 and throw for 275 yards and 3 TD. Just show me that there's a reason to think last week was a hiccup and not where he's really at in is development (or lack-thereof)
If he sucks again, give Lauletta all of the snaps Eli doesn't take next week and then in Game 4, give Lauletta 3 quarters.
The funniest part about it is we all agree he likely won’t be the answer as Eli’s replacement, we are simply supporting the notion that time and reps could get him to turn the corner.
All I said was it’s entirely possible he improves and gives the Giants a reason to continue along in trying to develop him. He did exactly what I was looking for. He made an excellent throw on 3rd and very long. He had a 106.3 rating. Didn’t turn the ball over. Led a TD drive and made some really nice throws.
The only thing that isn’t surprising here is that you won’t concede anything because you think you know so much more than everyone else. Exactly what I expected.
But when I watched him last week..........
Can you take some time to let this thing materialize?
My god people...
Sunk cost.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
We're all rooting for Webb. It doesn't matter.
No idea if that’s directed at me or not but again, who’s not seeing the truth? Not everyone shares your views, not everyone is pessimistic about just about everything. None of us have any control over what happens with Webb. So you can beat a drum about him being terrible or you can see how it unfolds over the next 3 games.
Beyond that, I thought I remembered seeing some good things from him last preseason. Last week obviously put a very sour taste in people's mouths.
But we have 3 games left - it's worth giving him a good amount of time. Eli should not need to play more than a quarter in any of these games, honestly. Webb and Lauletta need to be getting the majority of these reps so we can figure out if either guy is capable of backing #10 up or if we need to look elsewhere.
I don’t really know what the confusion is. The chances of him working out are slim, pretty much everyone agrees on that. But I’ll root for him and I’ll look forward to the rest of the preseason to see if better coaching takes hold. Crazy concept, I know.
I wasn't speaking directly about your opinion.
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
The bigger issue is more basic...his Feet Mechanics are heavy and slow---he is not ready to throw. You can see his Head reacting to a read, and his shoulder loading....his feet just never get there.
Great QB's don't need to be fast twitch guys.... Eli, Marino, Brady---these guys move "a necessary step quickly", and they are ready for the throw.
Davis has very basic work to do...basic, not small.
Lauletta should be playing nearly the entirety of the rest of the preseason. Right now, he's the only thing we have approaching a viable backup quarterback, and our starter is 37 years old.
It's not too early is your opinion - I don't think it's necessarily true or factual. I think giving up on a guy who has basically played grand total of one preseason game and has never even thrown a pass in one that counts and is only in his 2nd year is a bit premature.
Draft picks are precious assets. If you're going to dump a guy in year 2, you better be sure he's worthless. I personally don't think that's provable yet, and it doesn't seem like Pat Shurmur thinks so, either - and I'd say he knows just a tad more about the QB position than any of us do.
Lauletta isn't going to play every snap - this is the time to find out if Webb can give the Giants any reason to continue along with him or not.
I didn't think Webb was awful against the Patriots last year in the preseason finale. He made a couple nice plays.
To me, the Giants have nothing to really lose by giving Webb more preseason work to draw a better conclusion. If he doesn't show any improvement by the end of the month, cut bait and look for a vet to shake loose from somewhere else.
Draft picks are indeed precious, and Reese wasted this one as he wasted many others his last few years here. That's part of the reason why he's gone.
Another part of the reason he's gone is that this team has a culture of giving its own guys the benefit of the doubt way too often. Instead of putting the onus on the players to not give the coaches a choice but to play them, this team has given guys opportunities they don't deserve. For the last 5 years or so incompetence and even abject stupidity (we rewarded a guy that blew his hand off with a contract extension) has been rewarded with opportunity.
I've got nothing against Davis Webb. By all accounts he works hard. So do lots of other people in the world...that doesn't make them qualified to be an NFL quarterback.
The "lets wait and see if things get better" approach is why this team has been a pathetic loser for the last 5 years.
The Rams should have just cut him then and there.
No. Just smarter than you.
Quote:
Man, I'm just surprised no one has hired you as a GM yet - you seem to be so much smarter than everyone else!
No. Just smarter than you.
Haha. Keep telling yourself that. No one loves your opinions more than you do.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a rookie struggling to get up to NFL speed and a guy that after a full year in the NFL still has not mastered the most fundamental aspects of playing quarterback.
Besides, you should be comparing Webb to Lauletta, not Goff. That's what matters to this team. And Lauletta in his very first NFL taste looked like he knew how to throw a football. Webb does not, despite the advantage of having spent a year on an NFL team.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
"Davis likes directing traffic. That's kind of who he is."
After the snap, Webb showed off his cannon for an arm, which -- behind his brain and confident personality -- is his best attribute. He boasts an arm as pure as Lannister gold. He can throw from every platform. He doesn't need his feet to be set. He can make every throw required of an NFL quarterback.
Goff - 64.5%, 4,714 yards, 43 TD, 13 INT
Webb - 61.6%, 4,295 yards, 37 TD, 12 INT
Davis Webb spent one season here in as dysfunctional a locker room/situation as we have had here maybe ever. He got zero playing time in the regular season. He didn't even get reps with starters in practice.
There's virtually nothing to gain by not giving him another snap this preseason. It would be stupid and thankfully, Pat Shurmur isn't that stupid. Webb will continue to get reps and if he doesn't show improvement, he'll be demoted/cut.
But I get it - you always need to be out ahead of everyone else on things, so you take everything to an extreme. Like suggesting you'd take a kicker in the 1st round if he was good enough or this warped idea of basically never paying players, etc.
One note on this is that the WR's all (or mostly all) graduated with Goff, so Webb was working with all freshman, sophomores, and I believe 1 junior.
Look...I can link stuff too:
Here's Sy's scouting report:
Summary: Fourth year senior that graduated from Texas Tech early and was able to transfer to California for a graduate season. He earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2017, replacing last year’s top overall pick Jared Goff. Webb took advantage of his opportunity and displayed an NFL ability. His size and easy throwing motion can get you excited, but he has a ways to go in terms of progression and learning. Webb is a couple years away and will have to spend a lot of time correcting elements such as a footwork, lower body mechanics, and reading a defense, among other things. Possible starter down the road, but more likely a backup.
*Webb is a hot name with some of the people I get to talk with…and others think he won’t ever be a starter. Nobody denies the talent, but he has a ways to go. I’ve watched every game of his from 2016 and he does the same things week in and week out that bother me. He has to completely change his game and while I think it is possible, it’s simply unlikely.
Upside Pro Comparison: Brock Osweiler – CLE
Here's the "Weaknesses" and "Bottom Line" from the NFL.com scouting report:
WEAKNESSES
Robotic decision-making. Decision on where to go with ball seems predetermined despite coverages. Needs to get better at manipulating safeties with his eyes. Inconsistent velocity to sideline causes nose of ball to dip. Drive throws sometime sail. Has slow setup in pocket with excessive pre-release steps. Cornerbacks contest too many throws due to lack of anticipation. Timing passes must come out sooner. Plagued by accuracy issues and decision-making outside the numbers on both intermediate and deep throws. Five of his 12 interceptions in 2016 were along deep sidelines due to under-throws and failure to read safety help. Touch and placement are an issue when forced to leave the pocket. Not a factor as a scrambler.
BOTTOM LINE
System quarterback with more than 65 percent of his attempts coming inside of 10 yards. Webb has enough raw talent to be considered a developmental prospect, but his decision-making and accuracy issues beyond 10 yards is a big red flag that might be tough to overcome in the NFL.
Here's Walter Football:
Poor decision-making
Pre-determines too many throws
Stares down receivers, reads
Needs to improve reading defenses, reading coverage
Will need to learn operating a huddle
Will need to learn working under center
Will need to learn and improve footwork
Lacks composure when faced with a rush
Gets happy feet
Gets rattled by the rush
Pressure effects his accuracy
Seeing a theme? I'm seeing terms like "mechanics", "decision making", "footwork", and "reading a defense". I know it's not the Cal coaches talking, but silly me I'm going to listen to more to objective scouts.
And after a year in pro football we see those things playing out on the field. I'll concede that it's possible he'll improve these next three weeks. I don't have a crystal ball.
But I know what I think is going to happen.
And his first year in the league, he was terrible. He started 7 games, threw 5 TD's and 7 picks. He had an 18.9 QBR. Absolutely pitiful.
If you were watching him that year and he was a Giant, I bet you would have said a lot of the same shit. "This guy can't play. Not an NFL QB. Cut bait"
Some QB's need time to develop. This is probably the most difficult position to play in all of pro sports.
I literally see no point whatsoever in not giving Webb another snap this preseason. There's nothing to gain. He was always considered a developmental guy. You don't draft a guy like that and then cut bait after one season where he didn't even get a shot to play in a game that mattered with starters.
This isn't me saying hold onto him for the entirety of his rookie contract or keep doing this for 3 more years. I'm literally just saying to give him more reps over the next 3 weeks and see if he shows any sign of progress. If he doesn't, move on. It's not really an absurd stance to have nor is it detrimental to the Giants to do that.
And besides that, there's nothing in common between the two. I'll go back to Sy's scouting report on Goff:
Third year junior. Two time team captain. Semifinalist for the Davey O’Brien Quarterback Award in 2015. Has started all 38 possible games over his three year career. Goff has been re-writing the California record book since the day he stepped on campus. He checks off almost every box on the list when it comes ability, leadership, and off-field behavior. He has elite-level accuracy and touch in addition to consistent lower body mechanics and release points. Goff is as poised and as tough as it gets. His only main drawback a lack of bulk. He will need to gain weight and strength to ensure he can bounce back from the increasing physical nature of the game. There is a sense of smoothness, toughness, and patience here that is tough to find wrapped up in to one QB. While the frame concerns me like it did with Sam Bradford a few years ago, I think Goff will be able to handle the hits and stay on track. All in all, Goff will be one of the class’ elite prospects and very possibly the first quarterback taken.
"Consistent lower body mechanics and release points", "poised and as tough as it gets", "Elite level accuracy and touch". Did you read anything like that in Webb's scouting report?
I suppose it's possible Sy doesn't know what he's talking about. But given that Goff was the first pick overall and a playoff QB in his second year, and Webb was a third rounder that doesn't look like he knows how to throw a ball, I'm going to go with Sy on this one. Here's a Sy in his required reading "What I would have done" post-draft analysis:
Last week did you see anything other than what Sy wrote there? I did not. If anything, what we saw was worse.
So you ask: what's the harm in letting him stick around? To me, that's the mentality that makes this team shitty. Why aren't you asking, "What has Webb done to show he deserves a spot on the team?"
The answer is nothing. The only argument in his favor is we spent a third round pick on him. And that line of thinking is why this team sucks until proven otherwise.
Sy has his opinions and I respect them, but there are a billion scouts out there. I could easily go find scouting reports that say different things than his do. None of that shit is gospel.
Again, Jared Goff was utterly terrible as a rookie. He started 7 games and had a sub-20 QBR. Using your logic, what did he do to deserve staying in LA at that point? He was awful. He had a terrible preseason as a rookie, and his performance in games that counted was just as bad.
You're expecting a team to operate in a way that they simply do not operate. This has nothing to do with the Giants. Teams don't draft QB's in the 3rd round and then just get rid of them the very next season when they've thrown like 50 passes TOTAL on NFL fields in games that don't even count.
You can sit here and clamor for the Giants to not give him a single snap again and get rid of him all you want. They're not going to do that because that's not how teams develop players.
The funny thing is that I don't even think much of Davis Webb at all. I think Kyle Lauletta is far more interesting. I just think it's pointless to think the Giants are going to cut Webb off here. You keep repeating that they should, but they aren't going to and I'm fairly certain most other teams wouldn't either. Not now.
You've already conceded that it's possible he shows improvement. It's not symptomatic of a larger issue to give a 2nd year QB reps in the preseason.
You're also forgetting that this is now a completely different system than the one he learned last year. So, he's essentially a rookie again now. This is all brand new. Nothing is carrying over from last year. The staff is different, the coach is different, and a bunch of the players are too.
I'm really just wasting words here. I believe Webb should continue to get reps this preseason. If he shows us something, we move forward. If he has 2-3 more showings like last week, that's it. Our only major disagreement is that you're in a rush to ditch him right this second and I don't see any benefit to doing so. That's really all it boils down to.
What we have with Webb is not a learning curve issue, though. Besides having all the regular difficulties you'd associate with a young QB, he has deeper fundamental deficiencies that were never apparent in Goff, Eli, or any other successful NFL QB that endured a rough rookie start.
Put simply: he doesn't know how to throw a football at an NFL level. Not in a game situation, anyway. I'm sure in practice he looks great...but in a game situation under a pass rush is when you see the true mechanics come out. And the truth is Webb's are deeply, deeply flawed.
On a side note, I noticed the same issue with Josh Allen for the Bills. As their game went along his release point got lower and lower. Obviously his arm strength isn't an issue, but his accuracy is going to be erratic unless he gets his mechanics under control.
Also, you didn't answer my question - how many teams have given up on a 3rd rd QB after 1 preseason game in his 2nd season without there being any outside reason for doing so (i.e.. character issues, etc) ?
Your assessment of Webb really isn't much different than mine. I am just not seeing the rush in cutting the entire thing off here. Not everyone in the Giants org thinks Davis Webb is already a sunk cost and it doesn't have to reflect an organizational flaw for them to stick with him a little longer.
I just don't see how it harms the Giants to give this guy the rest of the preseason. I'm not even advocating anything beyond that. I think that's more than fair - and realistic.
Cutting bait right this second is not. It's just not something teams typically do, and the Giants aren't going to do that here either.
And to answer your other question, Webb IS adjusting to the pro game too...so do you think that makes it more or less likely he is going to be able to completely revolutionize his fundamentals? Is that going to be an easy thing for him to do while learning the pro game? There's a reason teams tend not to draft quarterbacks that are bad at throwing footballs...the job is already difficult enough without having to teach them how to physically throw a ball.
And I've already outlined the cost of keeping Webb around. Those are snaps Lauletta doesn't get. Those are snaps that we can't properly assess our offensive depth players because the offense simply can not function with Webb under center.
And here's a question I've got for you: what is gained by keeping Webb around? We hope that he learns how to throw in a few weeks AND grasps the difficulties of an NFL offense? Wouldn't we be ahead of the game if we just replaced him with someone who knows how to throw?
Face it - Webb was drafted by Jerry Reese, a guy with a .000 batting average in drafting and developing QBs. He was drafted because he physically looks the part, even if he can't actually play the position - a mistake we've known Reese to make many times at many positions.
Finally, I'll quote Mike Lombardi from this week's GM Street podcast: "The Giants don't have a backup quarterback."
We don't.
It's likely Webb won't pan out. Not definite. But you keep saying it like it's definite. If this were the case, Pat Shurmur wouldn't be wasting his time on this guy. One thing Shurmur knows is QB's. If he's sticking with this, despite the guy who drafted Webb not even being here any longer, I will defer to him and think that there's probably a reason for it.
You asked me what is gained by keeping him around and to me, it's a simple matter of comparing risk/reward. There is virtually zero risk associated with giving him more time this preseason, but there is potential reward if he improves and winds up being a capable player.
Kyle Lauletta doesn't need to play every snap in these games. Josh Johnson was the type of QB that preseason snaps were completely wasted on because he had been around long enough where it was crystal clear that he simply wasn't good and wasn't going to get any better.
You're making it sound like it's going to set the Giants back 10 years by giving a QB in his 2nd year preseason snaps. I don't understand why this is such a sticking point for you or why you're so desperate to see the guy get cut off right this second.
Bottom line is this: the Giants aren't going to do what you want them to do because there's no reason to do it.
For one thing, several said here he couldn't be counted on to play a game on a 2 win team in December because he still didn't know how to take a snap under center. If that were true then, he has certainly progressed. I saw him take the right number of steps in his drop back multiple times.
It also appeared he was more comfortable operating in the pocket.
He also didn't turn the ball over. Truth be told, he did make an ill-advised throw (or two) into coverage, but that happens to a lot of QB's who make more than 20 attempts in a game. That's actually a sign of a guy who is confident in his arm to make a play. That can be both a positive and a negative.
What worries me is his lack of feel for both accuracy and touch. I'm with Shurmur who says arm strength isn't as important as accuracy when it comes to evaluating QB's. I'd feel much better about Webb if he could start to show more consistent accuracy.
Having said that, I've lived with Eli and enjoyed the highs of a guy who can come out and throw the most beautiful balls and play lights out for many games, then have stretches of horrible play where he throws off target and without great touch. If Eli can succeed, I think Webb has a chance to be successful in the NFL.
I'm not pro-Webb either, btw. I'm in his corner as long as he's designated the #2 behind Eli by the coaching staff. That's simply because of two things:
1. I have a lot less info than they do about his performance, including what he did vs. what he should have done.
2. I have a lot less experience than they do at evaluating QB's and their performance.
Given Shurmur's reputation I don't know how any serious Giants fan can expect to be better than he is at determining who should be #2.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
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he played in was almost exclusively out of the gun. You can certainly read about him taking snaps from under center for the first time by looking back into last year's camp articles. It's why when people were clamoring for Webb to start last year, those who knew about him from College were pretty confident in saying he didn't get playing time for a reason.
I'm aware of his college scheme and experience under center, which is why I brought it up as an area of improvement. I didn't see his playing under center as a part of the problem last week. Did you?
I don't know enough about the mechanics of playing QB to know whether or not his throwing problems are related to taking dropbacks or not. One of other knocks against Webb is that he can be a bit slow to read and process the field. If that was the case in a shotgun offense, it could be exacerbated even more by having to play under center.
I'm actually really looking forward to tonight to get another look at the QB's.
Like I said in another thread - Webb doesn't have to be perfect. All I want to see is a TD drive. I want to see some poise, some more accurate throws. Hopefully at least 60%. He doesn't have to go 20-25 and throw for 275 yards and 3 TD. Just show me that there's a reason to think last week was a hiccup and not where he's really at in is development (or lack-thereof)
If he sucks again, give Lauletta all of the snaps Eli doesn't take next week and then in Game 4, give Lauletta 3 quarters.
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Man, I'm just surprised no one has hired you as a GM yet - you seem to be so much smarter than everyone else!
No. Just smarter than you.
Bump.
Webb basically had a complete opposite game from last week. Showed improvement, threw a good ball, made reads, etc. but yeah, just cut him.
I'm not surprised you'd think he did well, though.
I'm not surprised you'd think he did well, though.
So you’d still cut him right now?
Boy you think way too much of your opinions...
The funniest part about it is we all agree he likely won’t be the answer as Eli’s replacement, we are simply supporting the notion that time and reps could get him to turn the corner.
Give Lauletta a ton of reps, then keep an eye on who shakes loose around the league.
The only thing that isn’t surprising here is that you won’t concede anything because you think you know so much more than everyone else. Exactly what I expected.
You're the dipshit that bumped the thread. I'm not the stubborn one.