Ho hum, complete game. 108 pitches, 9k’s 0 walks and didn’t give up an earned run. ERA is now 1.71. Cy Young worthy. Guy is having an unbelievable season. Hope he wins it.
can he expect to get at this point? Shame the Mets are so cheap and will likely lowball him while conveniently forgetting how he carried the team for 5 years
He should win the Cy Young. He has been the best pitcher in the game this year, hands down...and this is not coming from a Mets fan. I feel like the Mets can't win with him, Syndergaard, and Wheeler. They won't trade any of them and if they did trade they are likely not to get fair value. Yet, by holding on to them they are likely wasting the prime for each. We all know the reality is that the ownership isn't putting a first class team behind them and isn't paying them market value.
but it's far from over, the home stretch will determine the outcome (captain obvious?)
Scherzer very much alive - more K's, better WHIP (somehow), and more W's which is the least important stat, but voters are idiots.
Nola alive too and in the mix if both deGrom and Scherzer falter.
but those three are the obvious NL favorites down the stretch.
I would also be in favor of extending deGrom now. Nothing crazy, but try and give him some generational financial security with a good faith "home team discount" something like a 5 year 75M/85M deal tearing up his current contract.
He’ll get a big contract because even though he’s 30 Â
He’s like a really young 30. Because there isn’t a lot of mileage on his arm. And he started pitching late
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
He’s like a really young 30. Because there isn’t a lot of mileage on his arm. And he started pitching late
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
DeGrom's agent is pretty big time. He also represents Cespedes and Cano and got him that ridiculous Seattle contract. He's also been publicly critical of MLB owners not spending money. Pretty low chance of him playing conservatively with the mets.
RE: RE: He’ll get a big contract because even though he’s 30 Â
He’s like a really young 30. Because there isn’t a lot of mileage on his arm. And he started pitching late
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
That's precisely what the Mets should do. His next 2 trips to arbitration are not going to be cheap. So the Mets can:
- pay somewhere in upwards of 40M and lose him at 32
- extend him at say 110M/4 through age 34
- trade him him now for an absolutely haul and begin a rebuild
but deGrom's agent has also come out and publicly said he wants the Mets to extend deGrom, two full years before they need to extend him.
So in cases like that with a pitcher, would be 33 when he hits FA, has already had TJS and other health ailments to me it signals they want to stay in NY and wouldn't necessarily gouge the Mets for every last penny they could get.
but...proof is in the contract, so we'll see. I just want the Mets to at least negotiate in good faith and try and capitalize on it, if in face deGrom and his agent feel that way.
open market he would get 30m+ AAV like Sherzer easily. So if I'm the Mets, I'm relatively content with anything at or just under $25m per. After seeing how quickly things can change for a pitcher (Harvey) and knowing he wants to be here, I expect JDG is willing to take a fair deal just north of $100m. 5x120m would be my best guess at "fair" for both sides.
But if the Mets sign him to that contract they better be ready to keep the checkbook open to compete next season. Not adding a few other impact players with him would be like resigning Wright all over again.
I think getting the 5th year now will be impossible.
Who knows what he'd get in arbitration -- Price I think doubled his salary once and that was the biggest increase. If he ends with a sub 2 ERA and a Cy Young, I could see the next 2 years costing 15 & 22.
Just for arguments sake, say open market he's worth 33 a year. Maybe 4/110 isn't realistic, but 4/100 would be unbelievable value.
It would be a historical snub. Not only that but the defense behind him isn't even any good for fucksake. Go Jake.
Well for one, the voters are absolute high and mighty morons.
They still place a large amount of importance on wins...because they look pretty.
The Mets being a joke of a franchise certainly won’t help.
But in all seriousness, this is a DeGrom/Scherzer race to the Cy Young. If any other pitcher gets a CY vote it would be ridiculous (but not surprising from these idiot voters). Those two are neck and neck in most categories but Scherzer leads them all except for ERA. DeGrom will need to get the sympathy vote for him to win, IMO.
defense behind him, the BP behind him, the offense around him Â
It would be a historical snub. Not only that but the defense behind him isn't even any good for fucksake. Go Jake.
Well for one, the voters are absolute high and mighty morons.
They still place a large amount of importance on wins...because they look pretty.
The Mets being a joke of a franchise certainly won’t help.
But in all seriousness, this is a DeGrom/Scherzer race to the Cy Young. If any other pitcher gets a CY vote it would be ridiculous (but not surprising from these idiot voters). Those two are neck and neck in most categories but Scherzer leads them all except for ERA. DeGrom will need to get the sympathy vote for him to win, IMO.
That's actually not true. Scherzer has 1 more start and only 6 more total innings and has only been better in 2 categories I can find - wins and k's. Degrom is well ahead of him in almost every other category that speaks to how well either of them has pitched:
fip (half run lower)
xfip (half run lower)
fwar (.7 higher)
fewer walks (36 vs 41)
fewer homers (8 vs. 17)
same # of CG (1)
less total bases given up to hitters (25 less)
On top of all that Scherzer has actually had better luck than JDG with a lower babip against (likely because the nats d is better than the mets atrocious d).
So other than striking out 1-2 more guys per start and his team doing a better job for him in his 8 extra wins, I can't really find any stats that support Scherzer pitching better than JDG this year. Nor are there any stats that support JDG's era being a fluke. The fluke is how bad the team around him has been relative to how good he's been.
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
All great points, Eric. I was looking at more traditional stats as Â
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
RE: All great points, Eric. I was looking at more traditional stats as Â
opposed to advanced stats. Thanks for including those.
Then I refer to my original point...the voters are idiots.
agreed there. Oddly though, in this case I actually think the fact that his wins are so low and it's been discussed so much in the media helps. Kind of like the no publicity is bad publicity thing. Hopefully it gets out there enough over this last month of the season that the prevailing wisdom reflects the truth that jdg has just been in a class of his own this year.
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
It is strictly a two man race I was just pointing out Cahill's success. I think Billy Beane is overrated but he has done an incredible job this year with the usual limited payroll.
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
I think Cy is AL and NL so technically Cahill is (at best) 3rd place behind Sale and Bauer or Snell, etc.
MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
Sorry 1972 was the year.
One of his most remarkable records was accounting for nearly half (46%) of his team's wins, when he won 27 games for the last-place (59-97) 1972 Phillies.
MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
deGrom shouldn't be penalized for having shitty teammates.
MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
deGrom shouldn't be penalized for having shitty teammates.
I agree he shouldn't be penalized for being on a bad team. That is what the Cy Young would be for. Not the MVP, IMO.
The MVP award should be held to a higher standard
is out of the running for MVP even on a shitty team.
Mainly though it's because there is no run away dominant candidates as position players. Many NL players having great years (Carpenter, Freeman, Arenado, etc.) but none dominant.
If deGrom remains lights out for his next 6 or 7 starts or however many he has left and none of those guys catch fire he could win MVP.
I think voters would have an easier time giving a pitcher MVP if it was Scherzer (I believe Verlander, Clemens, and Kershaw the last few pitchers to win MVP off the top of my head - all were on teams who made the playoffs).
but IMO there is no rule nor should there be that an MVP has to come from a playoff team or contender.
in '58 and '59 on woefully bad Cubs teams. MVP is MVP regardless of team performance.
The reason I mentioned Steve Carlton in one of my previous posts is that he had an outstanding year with 27 WINS. For MVP, I don’t think ERA alone should be a significant factor. If you wanted to say Scherzer is deserving, I would agree.
not be a major factor? If Carlton pitches for this Mets team he likely has only a few extra wins due to his longevity. He doesn’t sniff 27 wins which is the point...
but when a pitcher is this far south of 2.00 it has to be factored heavily into the final decision.
Ok.. I concede that ERA is an MVP worthy factor.
Personally I don't think he should get MVP because IMO the Mets have lost far too many games and are too far out of it for any of their players to win league MVP. I just don't buy an argument that if you are considering him not to seriously look are his ERA as part of the equation.
In general I am not a fan of pitchers winning MVP over position players.
I agree. I think in general, the Cy is for pitchers and the MVP is for position players. Obviously there must be exceptions in the case of a pitcher having a truly dominant season. DeGrom would seem to fit as would Scherzer, but for a team that has won so little, I'd lean for a player having a dominant season on a very good team, that is the head and shoulders best player on the team. For the NL, I think Freeman and Goldschmidt both have good cases.
A shame he won't be pitching in October.
A shame? It would be great for him. Someone WILL and likely a team that knows how to run a ballclub.
but it's far from over, the home stretch will determine the outcome (captain obvious?)
Scherzer very much alive - more K's, better WHIP (somehow), and more W's which is the least important stat, but voters are idiots.
Nola alive too and in the mix if both deGrom and Scherzer falter.
but those three are the obvious NL favorites down the stretch.
I would also be in favor of extending deGrom now. Nothing crazy, but try and give him some generational financial security with a good faith "home team discount" something like a 5 year 75M/85M deal tearing up his current contract.
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
Who are you and what did you do with Stan?
Quote:
He’s like a really young 30. Because there isn’t a lot of mileage on his arm. And he started pitching late
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
DeGrom's agent is pretty big time. He also represents Cespedes and Cano and got him that ridiculous Seattle contract. He's also been publicly critical of MLB owners not spending money. Pretty low chance of him playing conservatively with the mets.
Quote:
He’s like a really young 30. Because there isn’t a lot of mileage on his arm. And he started pitching late
but he already had TJS and an ulnar nerve replacement. If I'm the Mets I take advantage of the opportunity now and lock him up until he's 35 (and not beyond).
That's precisely what the Mets should do. His next 2 trips to arbitration are not going to be cheap. So the Mets can:
- pay somewhere in upwards of 40M and lose him at 32
- extend him at say 110M/4 through age 34
- trade him him now for an absolutely haul and begin a rebuild
I bet I can guess what the Mets end up doing.
So in cases like that with a pitcher, would be 33 when he hits FA, has already had TJS and other health ailments to me it signals they want to stay in NY and wouldn't necessarily gouge the Mets for every last penny they could get.
but...proof is in the contract, so we'll see. I just want the Mets to at least negotiate in good faith and try and capitalize on it, if in face deGrom and his agent feel that way.
Don't trade the Franchise away again.
5 years 130M is a FA contract.
I think ideally it would be more like 5 years 90M IMO.
he made $7.4M this year. Say he gets $30M the next two season in arbitration (combined - say 13M and 17M), that leaves 3 years, $60M for the security.
I think that's fair.
But if the Mets sign him to that contract they better be ready to keep the checkbook open to compete next season. Not adding a few other impact players with him would be like resigning Wright all over again.
Again, deGrom has two years of arbitration before he even hits FA amd then he'll be 32+.
if you figure deGrom gets $13M next year in arb, and 17 the following year (assuming he's healthy).
then your 5 years 120M contract is essentially 3 years 90M.
too much IMO. I'd do 3 years 75M, so maybe 5 years $105M or something like that.
Early signings IMO need to have some give from the player. or they should to make them more attractive for the team.
Who knows what he'd get in arbitration -- Price I think doubled his salary once and that was the biggest increase. If he ends with a sub 2 ERA and a Cy Young, I could see the next 2 years costing 15 & 22.
Just for arguments sake, say open market he's worth 33 a year. Maybe 4/110 isn't realistic, but 4/100 would be unbelievable value.
Well for one, the voters are absolute high and mighty morons.
They still place a large amount of importance on wins...because they look pretty.
The Mets being a joke of a franchise certainly won’t help.
But in all seriousness, this is a DeGrom/Scherzer race to the Cy Young. If any other pitcher gets a CY vote it would be ridiculous (but not surprising from these idiot voters). Those two are neck and neck in most categories but Scherzer leads them all except for ERA. DeGrom will need to get the sympathy vote for him to win, IMO.
Quote:
It would be a historical snub. Not only that but the defense behind him isn't even any good for fucksake. Go Jake.
Well for one, the voters are absolute high and mighty morons.
They still place a large amount of importance on wins...because they look pretty.
The Mets being a joke of a franchise certainly won’t help.
But in all seriousness, this is a DeGrom/Scherzer race to the Cy Young. If any other pitcher gets a CY vote it would be ridiculous (but not surprising from these idiot voters). Those two are neck and neck in most categories but Scherzer leads them all except for ERA. DeGrom will need to get the sympathy vote for him to win, IMO.
That's actually not true. Scherzer has 1 more start and only 6 more total innings and has only been better in 2 categories I can find - wins and k's. Degrom is well ahead of him in almost every other category that speaks to how well either of them has pitched:
fip (half run lower)
xfip (half run lower)
fwar (.7 higher)
fewer walks (36 vs 41)
fewer homers (8 vs. 17)
same # of CG (1)
less total bases given up to hitters (25 less)
On top of all that Scherzer has actually had better luck than JDG with a lower babip against (likely because the nats d is better than the mets atrocious d).
So other than striking out 1-2 more guys per start and his team doing a better job for him in his 8 extra wins, I can't really find any stats that support Scherzer pitching better than JDG this year. Nor are there any stats that support JDG's era being a fluke. The fluke is how bad the team around him has been relative to how good he's been.
Then I refer to my original point...the voters are idiots.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
Then I refer to my original point...the voters are idiots.
agreed there. Oddly though, in this case I actually think the fact that his wins are so low and it's been discussed so much in the media helps. Kind of like the no publicity is bad publicity thing. Hopefully it gets out there enough over this last month of the season that the prevailing wisdom reflects the truth that jdg has just been in a class of his own this year.
Quote:
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
It is strictly a two man race I was just pointing out Cahill's success. I think Billy Beane is overrated but he has done an incredible job this year with the usual limited payroll.
Quote:
but Trevor Cahill is having a surprisingly good season for Oakland. Cahill with a 3.12 ERA, 3.11 FIP 1.03 WHIP. He is a big reason why Oakland is now tied for 1st.
Yeah, there are a bunch of pitchers playing really well this year. However, that are all playing for 3rd place in the Cy Young race behind Jake and Max.
I think Cy is AL and NL so technically Cahill is (at best) 3rd place behind Sale and Bauer or Snell, etc.
MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
Quote:
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MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
Sorry 1972 was the year.
One of his most remarkable records was accounting for nearly half (46%) of his team's wins, when he won 27 games for the last-place (59-97) 1972 Phillies.
Quote:
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MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
deGrom shouldn't be penalized for having shitty teammates.
Quote:
In comment 14043416 NyquistX3 said:
Quote:
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MVP - No way. CY Young - He is certainly in the running for it. To me, an MVP candidate is someone who leads his team to the playoffs, or close to it. Only exception I can think of is someone who had an exceptional year for a losing team. First one that comes to my mind - Steve Carlton in 1973 (I believe that is the year). He WON a high percentage of his teams' game won. That would be an MVP candidate for a pitcher.
deGrom shouldn't be penalized for having shitty teammates.
I agree he shouldn't be penalized for being on a bad team. That is what the Cy Young would be for. Not the MVP, IMO.
The MVP award should be held to a higher standard
Mainly though it's because there is no run away dominant candidates as position players. Many NL players having great years (Carpenter, Freeman, Arenado, etc.) but none dominant.
If deGrom remains lights out for his next 6 or 7 starts or however many he has left and none of those guys catch fire he could win MVP.
I think voters would have an easier time giving a pitcher MVP if it was Scherzer (I believe Verlander, Clemens, and Kershaw the last few pitchers to win MVP off the top of my head - all were on teams who made the playoffs).
but IMO there is no rule nor should there be that an MVP has to come from a playoff team or contender.
The reason I mentioned Steve Carlton in one of my previous posts is that he had an outstanding year with 27 WINS. For MVP, I don’t think ERA alone should be a significant factor. If you wanted to say Scherzer is deserving, I would agree.
Ok.. I concede that ERA is an MVP worthy factor.
Quote:
but when a pitcher is this far south of 2.00 it has to be factored heavily into the final decision.
Ok.. I concede that ERA is an MVP worthy factor.
Personally I don't think he should get MVP because IMO the Mets have lost far too many games and are too far out of it for any of their players to win league MVP. I just don't buy an argument that if you are considering him not to seriously look are his ERA as part of the equation.
I agree. I think in general, the Cy is for pitchers and the MVP is for position players. Obviously there must be exceptions in the case of a pitcher having a truly dominant season. DeGrom would seem to fit as would Scherzer, but for a team that has won so little, I'd lean for a player having a dominant season on a very good team, that is the head and shoulders best player on the team. For the NL, I think Freeman and Goldschmidt both have good cases.