Prevailing opinion in Jan 2016 was Tom Coughlin should go

where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year.

Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

I would've liked him to stay in the organization. Reese should've gone, but I don't really know if Coughlin should've been made the GM or given some other role.

And only swept off the front porch.

i did want him fired as coach though and i think the second superbowl let him have a couple extra years...

wanted nothing to do with mcadoo, did not look like a head coach to me and his 2nd year you could tell he let the success of 11 and 5 get to his head

2016 with Coughlin as coach and that defense.

I've always felt the offensive line was to blame for all of our woes.

Coughlin should have been able to coach it out another year or two and then kick upstairs. We would be better for it.

but I think I would put more emphasis on the point, that in everybody's head coaching career, you're done. And he was done as a HC.

Whether he would've/should've been promoted to GM is tough for any of us to opine. I would want to know more about his input on our previous drafts before I made a determination as to his talent evaluation ability.

Glad he was here for 2 nice runs though...

Kept Reese too long
Keeping Eli too long.

Mara can't let go.

is that TC mismanaged several games that year, particularly screwing up clock management late in games. That cost the team some wins. I felt he could no longer be relied on to coach at a high level. As for promoting him to GM, I can't say if he had the skill needed to evaluate players well enough to succeed there.

In comment 14064950 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year. Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

In hindsight I agree with this. I don't think the Giants necessarily made TC the fall guy, but figured given his age it was time to move on, and put Reese on notice should the team continue to struggle.

In hindsight, they should have dismissed both of them. No personnel decisions were made in a vacuum, the two of them contributed to a team that underperformed for some time.

And to be completely honest, I don't think the level of change that many believe occurred around here ever happened. Gettleman was brought back, most of the scouts retained. Not the type of purge that should have been expected given the results, which is why I'm not particularly optimistic for the coming season.

The Giants have a hard time letting go of the past.

By keeping Reese and firing Coughlin.

While I would have been OK just firing Reese & Ross, the best move probably would have been a complete house cleaning.

But a couple of things happened. If you win a couple os Super Bowls in the salary cap era eventually you are going to have to completely remake your team. This was pretty much what happened between 2012-2015 and guys like Nicks , Cruz, Bradshaw, Tuck, etc. needed to be replaced sooner than expected. We really didn't have the funds or ability to start remaking our team until 2016, the year after he was gone. That was the year we brought in Snacks, OV, and JJ.

I also think Coughlin made some poor coordinator hires. Maybe that should have been on Reese too but the coordinators were sub-par. I think if Coughlin had stayed he would have turned things around eventually. I also think if he was given autonomy he would have focused more on rebuilding the trenches...something we got away from at his end and through the CrapAdoo era.

Im just happy to have two coaches(defensive and offensive) that are respected around the league and have a reputation for coming up with intelligent schemes. Thats going to make a world of difference this year. Shurmer/Gettleman seem to have a little of that Coughlin attitude as well.

I just remember feeling like the whole thing had run its course. But the organization is a little hesitant on sweeping change and it essentially cost them 2 seasons.

TC still has a great vision for how to structure a team. I agree with Fats that the problem was letting Reese stay and shedding TC.

The revolving door of coordinators and the offensive scheme change at the end of TC's tenure was the mistake. You had what appeared to be competing philosophies. This year's team built on Gettleman's vision feels more like a TC team. The difference is I feel better about Shurmur's scheme.

The team could be in a similar place right now had they dropped Reese, hired TC to a similar role, and hired Shurmur. I just don't think Reese was capable of succeeding without TC. Clearly, TC has proven he can build a team without Reese. He's done it in Jacksonville twice, and regardless of what percentage you want to put on it, he did it in NY.

In all 3 cases, it looks like TC was the common denominator. Reese played a role, but TC was the backbone.

In comment 14064954 mattlawson said:

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And only swept off the front porch.

Perfectly said.

...a winning solution given the severity of the problems both with the roster and the other front office members (i.e. GM and Dir of Scouting).

Given his age and 3 straight lousy years I can't blame ownership for wanting to turn the position over before going on a spending spree in FA to replace what talent they'd failed to accumulate in the draft over the past 5-6 years. (and if he was still intent on coaching it makes the transition to GM scenario moot). While my sentiment says I'd like to have seen him given another chance with an opportunity to rebuild with all that cap space we had - my gut agrees with Fatman that the best course may have been to do a complete house cleaning.

But that being said - you can only hire from the pool of GMs that are available and I don't specifically recall what GM candidates were there after '16.

Reese definitely should have gone too. Reese should have been booted years before.

In comment 14064969 12aob said:

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is that TC mismanaged several games that year, particularly screwing up clock management late in games. That cost the team some wins. I felt he could no longer be relied on to coach at a high level. As for promoting him to GM, I can't say if he had the skill needed to evaluate players well enough to succeed there.

Agree 100%.

But I think it’s fair to say he was losing his fastball when it came to in game decisions. Would have loved to see him stay with the Giants in a team president role as he has now with Jax. But I suspect he has too much pride to have accepted getting quasi-fired/pushes upstairs with the Giants. I think he’s probably still pretty raw about how his departure went down.

I agree that Reese and Ross should have been out too at the time.

but I think he would have been outstanding being in control of building the team. He was the driving force building the Jags so quickly in when they were an expansion team in ‘94. And he’s doing it again now.

I think he’s a very, very good judge of talent...arguably the best I’ve ever seen at identifying WR talent.

In comment 14064958 Britt in VA said:

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2016 with Coughlin as coach and that defense. I've always felt the offensive line was to blame for all of our woes. Coughlin should have been able to coach it out another year or two and then kick upstairs. We would be better for it.

I disagree. As bad as he was with almost everything, McAdoo did a very good job managing those games to close wins. That team wasn’t great and I don’t think Coughlin would have gotten that team to 11 wins. Just my opinion.

It was time for TC ago go but they should have cleaned house. Half measures cost them dearly.

Personally, I think he and Reese clashed when it came to personnel decisions and Reese often got his way because he was in charge.

Coughlin is as much a legend as anyone else in Giants history as far as I’m concerned and its kind of bittersweet to see him doing so well some place else, but I wanted him and Reese both gone in back then and I think thats where Mara went wrong.

And have essentially the role he has now with Jacksonville.

Of course, how do you convince a quality Head Coach it’s the right job for them when you have your immediate predecessor and the MAN sitting in a booth above you every week.

what has he done? for the most part their core and best players were there before he got there...

a person that gets very slighted is marrone

That Coughlin should go. He was criticized unmercifully for in game decisions in which I felt he was trying to do everything and anything to get something out of nothing.

I never felt that Coughlin lost his fast ball or forgot to coach. Coughlins biggest issue was loyalty. He was always extremely loyal to his coaches to a fault.

The problem in my opinion was personnel and injuries. We could not replace the aging players on the offensive line and that was on Reese and Marc Ross.

I did not like that Coughlin was made the scapegoat and if changes were going to be made, it should have been wholesale. The half ass attempts is what got us here.

The offensive scheme was the issue (not an aging offensive line) so we fire gilbride and bring in mcadoo

It's the head coach so we fire him and hire mcadoo

the defense is the problem (not Jerry reese) and we go on a free agency spending spree

It went on and on, but they failed to see the problem had more to do with the personnel than it did with the coaches or scheme.

It took them 5 years to figure it out, but we got here and I hope that Mara really learned from this experience and we never see a repeat.

Gettleman and shurmur have been a breath of fresh air and I'm happy that they are putting their stamp on this team

yet refuse to believe he had any input on personnel.

Can't have it both ways. After Flowers was drafted, he was gushing (including contradicting Reese, who claimed Flowers could play at either guard or tackle by insisting he was an LT).

He didn't sit through all those combines with his clipboard and timer so that he could be told 'sorry coach, we don't care what you think.'

I'm sure there were times where he made decisions that others didn't agree with and vice versa, and it sure looked at times like they weren't on the same page. But to sit here and think he wasn't partly responsible for that mess of a roster is laughable.

TC as president, Gettleman as GM, and Shurmur as HC. With the benefit of hindsight, that's my cake and eat it to scenario.

being relieved of his duties as HC but would take a spot in the FO.

I can't blame him either - would any of you do that?

In comment 14064997 mako J said:

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TC as president, Gettleman as GM, and Shurmur as HC. With the benefit of hindsight, that's my cake and eat it to scenario.

From listening to Gettleman, he loved Coughlin (I think Gettleman gets a long with just about anyone), but Gettleman believed in Coughlins coaching philosophy. The same with parcells. Gettleman will often reference Coughlin and parcells in his thoughts on how to construct a team. The types of players and such

anymore with OBJ and losing was starting to be yearly. The Giants should have gotten rid of Eli, TC, and Reese that year and today we would be in much better place.

was his attention to detail. Yet, how many games did the Giants show up and look unprepared at the beginning of the game, especially on offense?

In comment 14064992 nygiants16 said:

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what has he done? for the most part their core and best players were there before he got there... a person that gets very slighted is marrone

He signed Calais Campbell, traded for Marcelo Dareus, signed Barry Church, drafted Fournette, drafted Cam Robinson...

That’s a fairly good group of contributors...no?

Coughlin only went upstairs because there wasn't an opportunity on the sideline.

He wasn't ever going give the up the reigns, he's not that kind of guy, and it's what made him a great coach.

Mara hopefully has learned the lesson that there are no happy endings for guys as competitive as Coughlin, Reese, and eventually Manning.

When they are done, you just pull the band-aid and move forward.

In comment 14064964 bluepepper said:

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Kept Reese too long Keeping Eli too long. Mara can't let go.

Lot of truth to this. The Giants' championship window opened in 2005 and closed in 2012 - the 0-6 start in 2013 should've hammered that point home. We've been clinging to the past with half measures ever since.

but the best football man in the organization with the most experience and proven record. I think he would have gladly excerpted the GM job, Jerry should have been the guy that took the fall, his drafts and free agency moves we really weak. I think Tom has many years left as a quality GM. Jacksonville will be a force to deal with for years to come and he will be the driving force.

I think he could have gone a lot further in the playoffs.

He constantly put demands on the players but none on himself.

He was a very good coach all week except the three hours during the game. His time management at the end of the second Patriots SB game was an embarrassment.

I will always believe that Eli dragged TC's sorry butt to both those SBs.

In comment 14065005 bceagle05 said:

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In comment 14064964 bluepepper said: Quote: Kept Reese too long Keeping Eli too long. Mara can't let go. Lot of truth to this. The Giants' championship window opened in 2005 and closed in 2012 - the 0-6 start in 2013 should've hammered that point home. We've been clinging to the past with half measures ever since.

Agreed on all accounts, and unfortunately I think the half measures continue. This season will be very telling as to who have been the culprits in this organization for 5 of the past 6 seasons. Excuses are all but gone for certain players and the organization has invested a lot to “get one more run” out of these players. My personal opinion is all the Giants did this year was kick a true rebuild down the road 3 seaons.

#1- Tom Coughlin was finished as a HC
#2- Jerry Reese should have been fired as a HC
#3- The Giants should have hired Doug Marrone

I wouldn’t have been opposed to moving TC in as GM to replace Reese.

I thought TC's time had come and gone. I never considered him as GM because I thought he would have wanted to coach and/or I didn't know how many decisions he made instead of Reese.

TC an Reese are welcome any time. Obviously TC can't be the GM and Reese we don't want. But nothing has changed for me how I was thinking back then.

As of today, sure I'd like TC as a GM. But that's obviously hindsight. I'm concerned with our new GM. Hopefully that concern will turn into nothing and we'll do great.

not the coaching, Tom didn't forget how to coach but the front office really let him down. Hes a great coach but not a miracle worker. Tom took the fall because of his age, it was a huge mistake by John Mara. I do have hope in Gettleman / Schurmer might be a good combo.

In comment 14064950 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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where the Giants erred was not letting both TC and Reese go at the same time and doing the overhaul they did this year. Basically, they made TC the fall guy, and after the debacle last year it was exposed that TC may have been part of the problem, but the issues ran far deeper.

Totally, 100% agree and obviously right in hindsight. Coughlin AND Reese should've gone.

Quote:

That Coughlin should go.

Me neither. He had little to work with his last few years.

I guess we were outliers.

2016 was the first complete roster we'd had in years. Clearly McAdoo was not the answer. I think they have a good tandem now though.

he would have happily given up the HC job to be GM or president are out of your heads. Where is the evidence he would have wanted that?

In comment 14065023 exiled said:

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Quote: That Coughlin should go. Me neither. He had little to work with his last few years. I guess we were outliers.

That's partially true, but he had many coaching gaffes that ended up costing us. I still don't know how he could've blown some of the games he did (the Miracle at the Meadowlands II comes to mind. I was at that game).

the BBI'rs who were so adamant about getting rid of TC to solve all our problems aren't about to admit that they were undoubtedly and hilariously wrong-headed. At best, you are going to get the "both he and Reese should have been canned." which is cop-out bullshit. No matter: let bygones be bygones; no one should expect a bunch of amateurs on the outside to discern all.

The people on the inside, however, are a different story. A blind man could see there was nothing to choose from with personnel. We had seasons without a competent safety, seasons with no running backs, seasons with no receivers, no functional tight ends, seasons with no decent o-linemen, not one competent linebacker, good players allowed to walk, horrendous drafts. All of the evidence pointed to the GM suite. It is little wonder Coughlin was incredulous about Reese staying. TC did a great job getting 6 wins and competitive games out of the dreck the personnel people furnished.

None of this had to happen. Mara committed multiple blunders: he listened to Reese's serial excuses when anyone with a brain could see the personnel issues, he spent $100 million anyway to buck up the GM and try and prove he didn't just fire the only competent guy in the organization, he let TC take the blame for everything, he failed to pursuade Coughlin to move up to VP of football operations (which of course would have meant stepping aside and just being an owner), and then the icing on the cake, hired Bozo the Clown as head coach.

So, forgive those not brimming over with optimism about the owners' judgment this time around. Let's see it on the field.

2013. That season was the previous era's team hitting bottom. Unfortunately, Mara identified McAdoo as the next coach so they went into a holding pattern until they thought he was ready. They have been wasting their window with Eli since then.

Bon Voyage Jerry

and if possible,keep Tom as GM

No need to discuss what we ended up with,but that's what I think should have happened

since the Giants let him go, and, at the end, the Giants were losing some games because of his decisions.

Absolutely, but that's not saying much. I understand why many look at the Coughlin Years with rose-colored glasses, but he had some absolutely putrid, inexcusable losses here.

In comment 14065003 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14064992 nygiants16 said: Quote: what has he done? for the most part their core and best players were there before he got there... a person that gets very slighted is marrone He signed Calais Campbell, traded for Marcelo Dareus, signed Barry Church, drafted Fournette, drafted Cam Robinson... That’s a fairly good group of contributors...no?

Unclear of the chain of command but TC is not the GM.I'm sure he had input but maybe it's not accurate giving him full credit for all of those moves.

In comment 14064964 bluepepper said:

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Mara can't let go.

In a span of two months last year, Mara may have made two decisions that set this team back a decade.

His commitment to Eli and his hiring, per Accorsi, of Gettleman as GM.

But they did not have a replacement.

I love TC and hated to see him go...but it was time.

Definitely had nothing to do with 3-13.

His coaching to the talent and new Cba rules and was out coached on a number of occasions in 2015. We lost a number of games due to lack of smart decisions. His clueless look in the Carolina debacle said it all as he completely lost control. The fact that he didn’t have any head coaching offers after that shows we made the right call to cut ties. If he still had it someone would have offered him a job Mara messed up by succeeding him with mcadoo. Reese and the scouts were definitely part of the problem as well

.

In comment 14065009 OntheRoad said:

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I think he could have gone a lot further in the playoffs.

And the Giants canned his ass. No wonder Snee was angries.

In comment 14064964 bluepepper said:

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Kept Reese too long Keeping Eli too long. Mara can't let go.

We kept Mara too long.

In comment 14064977 j_rud said:

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I just remember feeling like the whole thing had run its course. But the organization is a little hesitant on sweeping change and it essentially cost them 2 seasons.

Agree. But I can't say that I was in favor of firing Reese at the time.

I don't think the Giants handled it badly. Hindsight is 20/20, but for where they were at the time, their moves were logical. As observed above, TC looked shaky as head coach. They let TC go, put his designated successor in place and put everyone on notice, Reese included. When the team tanked, they finally cleaned house. If they knew it was all going to go south, then yeah, they'd have done the housecleaning all at once, or maybe dumped Reese and kicked Coughlin upstairs. But that wasn't obvious at the time.

give Coughlin complete credit for the turnaround in Jacksonville in.complete ignorance of his role there, and at the same time completely absolve him of his missteps in NY.

Facts don't matter, only our narrative matters.

And didn’t want him gone. 2 years later and I think they should have cleaned house.

That said he didn’t necessarily have to go. But people just had to have their pound of flesh and accountability and all that crap. Someone has to pay, even if it’s deteminental to the team, someone has to fucking pay.

Now tell me that this team wouldn’t have been better off with coughlin at the helm instead of mcadoo for that 2016 season when the team was remarkably healthy and the Nfl all but spread its legs for the taking. Please tell me that I could use a good laugh.

The giants were getting better from 2013-2014 and 2015. It was clear to see. That 2015 team was so devoid of defensive talent it’s downright shocking to behold. They battled every week when they had no business doing so. They should have kept coughlin. Deal with it.

Of his final season convince me it was time to move on

In comment 14065057 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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give Coughlin complete credit for the turnaround in Jacksonville in.complete ignorance of his role there, and at the same time completely absolve him of his missteps in NY. Facts don't matter, only our narrative matters.

it’s an emotional connection that defies logic

In comment 14064958 Britt in VA said:

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2016 with Coughlin as coach and that defense. I've always felt the offensive line was to blame for all of our woes. Coughlin should have been able to coach it out another year or two and then kick upstairs. We would be better for it.

m

Exactly. The giants gave coughlin no chance to succeed in 2015. They were doing it right after the 2013 debacle. They were rebuilding. They get to 2015 with a raw young team save for Beckham and Eli, they compete week in and out but god god forbid coughlin doesn’t run the absolute perfect game plan and makes 1-2 questionable moves and they use that as a reason to wack the guy, never once asking themselves who the fuck out there is better than coughlin? Mcadoo? Really?

At least we now have shurmur after a two year waste of time and money and Eli. We all should pray that shurmur is half the head coach coughlin was here. Good luck with that. I do think shurmur is a terrific offensive mind, what we don’t know is how good a leader or father figure he’s going to be here long term.

In comment 14064969 12aob said:

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is that TC mismanaged several games that year, particularly screwing up clock management late in games. That cost the team some wins. I felt he could no longer be relied on to coach at a high level. As for promoting him to GM, I can't say if he had the skill needed to evaluate players well enough to succeed there.

Ask yourself if any other coach gets more blood, sweat and drive out of that shit show of a roster. Forget this Monday morning qb crap with disecting coughlins every move that year. The guy goes for it on 4th down a few times or stays aggressive becusse the defense couldn’t stop a runny nose that season. Literally they couldn’t stop anyone.

Coughlin did a terrific job in 2015 with what he had. And he had two players with a shit.

In comment 14065057 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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give Coughlin complete credit for the turnaround in Jacksonville in.complete ignorance of his role there, and at the same time completely absolve him of his missteps in NY. Facts don't matter, only our narrative matters.

I'm not a Coughlin guy. Never wanted Mara to hire him. But he has a huge role in Jacksonville. He's in charge of everything. For example, when he arrived Khan asked him if he wanted to coach the team? If not, if he was okay with Marrone. Coughlin said he was fine Marrone as the HC.

Coughlin earned the right to stay and he should've received full control.

If that would've happened, I do believe that Tom would've been so satisfied with being able to call all of the shots that he naturally would've started to delegate more and more.

Gilbride would've stayed the course, we would've fixed the Offensive Line, and we would've probably won another ring by now.

should have moved on from both of them in their previous roles. I would have had no issue moving Coughlin up to team president and having him help hire both the next GM and head coach, but I don't know if he would have been interested in that at the time because he still wanted to coach.

Dear prospective coaching candidate,

Your boss is a two time superbowl winning coach we literally just let go. Have at it.

Cheers,

J. Mara.


Coughlin also needed the time out to realise he wasn't going to be coaching anymore. I doubt he'd have transitioned straight without the year out, to a head office role, although I think, as his first go in Jacksonville shows, he's pretty good at it.

not perfect by any means but good. He was just a terrible manager, and his intermediate hires were terrible. The GM rarely has eyes on anything projected to go past the mid second round, there's just not enough time.

Because of age discrimination. He’s better than at least half of the guys coaching today.

That's what should have happened.

Always grateful for the two SB runs but there were too many years where the team under performed given the talent. Way too many second half of the season collapses.

His last season was an enigma in itself in that I thought it was one of the better coaching performances of his career given the trash on the roster. But the amount of late game losses that year were somewhat of a microcosm of his tenure here.

Good coach but it was time to move on.

The problem from majority of the people I heard from around the league was in keeping everyone BUT Coughlin. They all agreed it was time for Coughlin to go but using him as the scapegoat left a little black eye.

had major input on player acquisition. It's silly to think a 2 time SB, borderline HOF, HC is not getting a say. It's been acknowledged by Mara that he had big time input.

This was his team just as much as it was Reese's. As Fatman said, they both should have gone together, but it was absolutely time for him to go. 2 SB's are fantastic. Missing the playoffs more often than not, and trending in the wrong direction, is a major blemish.

In comment 14065100 fkap said:

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had major input on player acquisition. It's silly to think a 2 time SB, borderline HOF, HC is not getting a say. It's been acknowledged by Mara that he had big time input. This was his team just as much as it was Reese's. As Fatman said, they both should have gone together, but it was absolutely time for him to go. 2 SB's are fantastic. Missing the playoffs more often than not, and trending in the wrong direction, is a major blemish.

To an extent, yes, but that 2014-2015 team wasn’t spending any money. They were saving up for a 2016 spending spree. They should have kept coughlin for one more year or cleaned house completely in 2013.

I’m glad we have shurmur now but what a wasteful embarrassing disaster 16-17 was. That 16 team could have won something.

She was very clear in saying we should have fired our GM and not our coach.

Before we give too much credit though, she also said something this summer to the effect that Davis Webb had the best camp of all our QB's. :-)

Enough with the sugarcoating

2013- Giants lose 6 straight games to open season

2014- Giants lose 7 straight games in midseason

2015- Giants lose 6 of 7 games to end season

If that wasnt enough- the blowout losses

2013- Giants lose 38-0, 31-7, 23-0, 37-14

2014- giants lose 27-0, 38-17, 35-14

2015- giants lose 27-7, 49-17

Alot of these games were over by halftime and alot to not even good teams

It was bad.

Reese should have joined Coughlin... TC had lost his edge as a HC. Reese long before lost his mojo as GM. McADoo was a rush job. Too bad he did not end up with the Eagles....

In his last season he put us in position to win quite a few times but we had a Pop Warner defense that couldn't hold on to a lead if handed to them on a platter.
The argument that he is responsible for personnel is retarded. You can't blame the coach for the players drafted and sign. Mostly because the HC doesn't sign or draft players.

But didnt do it overall with Reese etc..

Who knows if they had done as o, maybe outlook for this season wouldve been different with a more settled roster and contention

In comment 14065129 Thunderstruck27 said:

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In his last season he put us in position to win quite a few times but we had a Pop Warner defense that couldn't hold on to a lead if handed to them on a platter. The argument that he is responsible for personnel is retarded. You can't blame the coach for the players drafted and sign. Mostly because the HC doesn't sign or draft players.

And nary a running game to hold a lead. Didn't exactly have gutsy Bradshaw and Jacobs back there.

been fired much sooner along with Reese.

In comment 14065118 twostepgiants said:

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Enough with the sugarcoating 2013- Giants lose 6 straight games to open season 2014- Giants lose 7 straight games in midseason 2015- Giants lose 6 of 7 games to end season If that wasnt enough- the blowout losses 2013- Giants lose 38-0, 31-7, 23-0, 37-14 2014- giants lose 27-0, 38-17, 35-14 2015- giants lose 27-7, 49-17 Alot of these games were over by halftime and alot to not even good teams It was bad.

Let’s go over the roster. Please.

Oh never mind that’s not convenient for some of you.

The 2015 defense was nothing short of terrible. The O did its part. The team wasn’t good enough yet they were in every game.

He wasn’t perfect but the decision to fire coughlin 2/3 of the way through a rebuild and replace him with bozo the clown was monumentally bad. Nothing short.

In comment 14065013 since1925 said:

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He constantly put demands on the players but none on himself. He was a very good coach all week except the three hours during the game. His time management at the end of the second Patriots SB game was an embarrassment. I will always believe that Eli dragged TC's sorry butt to both those SBs.

And if coughlin elected to drain clock and then the kicker misses the FG we’d all be killing him to this day.

Coughlin has won everywhere he’s been. This is classic Monday morning qbing at its best.

In comment 14065184 djm said:

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In comment 14065013 since1925 said: Quote: He constantly put demands on the players but none on himself. He was a very good coach all week except the three hours during the game. His time management at the end of the second Patriots SB game was an embarrassment. I will always believe that Eli dragged TC's sorry butt to both those SBs. And if coughlin elected to drain clock and then the kicker misses the FG we’d all be killing him to this day. Coughlin has won everywhere he’s been. This is classic Monday morning qbing at its best.

He's also been fired from everywhere he's been, to be clear.

Coughlin’s tenure was winding down and it was hard to defend 13-15 seasons but I said it 10 times if I said it once at the time, the giants had better be damn sure they have a good HC replacement coming in if they want to fire coughlin. Don’t fire the guy just because the masses scream for blood. And why hell would you field that bad of a defense in 2015 and then fire the HC if you planned on firing the coach to begin with? It was a bullshit strategy and plan — they set coughlin up to fail, then set Reese up to fail with the mcadoo hire and at the same time wasted resources, money and time.

The giants could have done 2-3-4 things differently back when they were deciding on what to do after the 2015 season and each choice would have been better than what they ended up doing.

Go check the defensive line and linebackers and secondary from 2015. The WRs? Lol... the tes????? The rbs??? Lol right... sure they underachieved. My ass they did. The OL was even better.

in hindsight the biggest mistake was not firing Reese along with him, the next mistake was hiring McAdoo, who I was hopeful for at first. It's clear now that offense could put up points in 2015 because of Eli and OBJ, but it was just off and completely inconsistent. Should have seen the writing on the wall when the offense was even worse off in 2016 that year without TC in charge. The defense was lights out that year and Eli/OBJ did just enough to win games. I'm very hopeful and excited for Shurmur now, my expectations for this season are to be actually competitive in games, meaningful games in December or a wild card berth would be icing on the cake.

In comment 14065189 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 14065184 djm said: Quote: In comment 14065013 since1925 said: Quote: He constantly put demands on the players but none on himself. He was a very good coach all week except the three hours during the game. His time management at the end of the second Patriots SB game was an embarrassment. I will always believe that Eli dragged TC's sorry butt to both those SBs. And if coughlin elected to drain clock and then the kicker misses the FG we’d all be killing him to this day. Coughlin has won everywhere he’s been. This is classic Monday morning qbing at its best. He's also been fired from everywhere he's been, to be clear.

He wasn’t fired as head coach of BC in the pros yes.

No one was winning in 2015.

Wiser than keeping Reese. Reese was a zealot until it was too late. Draft DL DB and WRs over and over his first 6 years. The rest of the roster be damned.

They should have shit canned them both really. TC did inherit some pretty good talent in Jax. They found a competent coach and drafted a stud RB. Drafted OL who didn’t suck as well. Suddenly Bortles looks better.

If Reese could have found one great OL in 11 years as a GM maybe he’d still have a job.

Seriously. His best OL draft pick ever was Pugh who was solid. 11 years. Reese was an u touchable for way too long. Bringing in Ross was beyond inept.

So if they were to keep on maybe it should have been TC. Ur my guess he wasnt the yes man Reese was

In comment 14065047 RDJR said:

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.

And not firing Reese. Both deserved to go.

We would have been worse with him in 2016 than with McAdoo, who did a great job managing games.

The problem was we didn't completely overhaul everything. We still haven't.

they were in a tricky spot because they were high on McAdoo, but hiring an assistant off of a losing staff was a very flawed approach.

2016 should have yielded a new GM & entire new coaching staff.

Coughlin had to go as far as a head coach, that was clear, but Reese stunk a lot worse and the talent level on the team was horrendous. They overpaid to get defensive players here because Reese was so horrible the year McAdoodles took over.

I wanted the Giants to fire Reese and bring Coughlin upstairs, if not that then I felt that they needed to get rid of both, but getting rid of the person that knew football talent for a bum was pathetic on our ownership, but with them if you play golf with them and are a good friend, then you have a job for life.

In comment 14065232 PaulN said:

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Coughlin had to go as far as a head coach, that was clear, but Reese stunk a lot worse and the talent level on the team was horrendous. They overpaid to get defensive players here because Reese was so horrible the year McAdoodles took over. I wanted the Giants to fire Reese and bring Coughlin upstairs, if not that then I felt that they needed to get rid of both, but getting rid of the person that knew football talent for a bum was pathetic on our ownership, but with them if you play golf with them and are a good friend, then you have a job for life.

If Reese had been great at his job and drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have hit free agency at the same time and would have gotten the same contracts. One of these days, you'll have an opinion that isn't factually incorrect.

was wrongfully gonna take the fall for the failures of Reese and Ross, and that's exactly what happened.

The org needed change, but the Giants being the Giants would always axe the coach before the GM.

And it's not clear to me TC would be a good GM.


Water under the bridge. I think Gettleman is a breath of fresh air if not new air. It's early, but I like his philosophy. Both he and Shumur seem so much more forthcoming and media friendly than the Reese/Coughlin regime. And as far as talking to the media, McAdon't was even worse.

So I would say it was the right decision

President is a good position for him. Still knows football. He is just too old to coach.

Plus, if you read. BBI, you would think TC won four super bowls in Jacksonville. They made the playoffs once. Let’s see how they do before annointing Coughlin

But Reese keeping his job made no sense to me. The Giants should have cleaned house then.

to win the East at 8-8.

All they needed was to win the two games after the bye at Washington and then at MetLife vs the Jets.

And it was the offense that spit the bit in both: 20-14 loss in DC and then 23-20 at home getting shut out the entire second half and overtime.

This what the 2015 NYG offense did on its first ten possessions against Washington in the biggest game of that year:

Interception
Interception
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
Punt
Interception
Punt
Punt

True facts.

In comment 14065086 djm said:

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Because of age discrimination. He’s better than at least half of the guys coaching today.

This is even more ridiculous. In a league with dog killers, wife beaters, drunk drivers - you think all of the NFL skipped right over a guy they thought could help them win because he was too old?

Could it be maybe they had a look at this record with Eli and thought that even in better times he was a good coach but had lost some off his fastball?

He didn't get another job because he stopped being a good coach. It happens.

In comment 14065277 jcn56 said:

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In comment 14065086 djm said: Quote: Because of age discrimination. He’s better than at least half of the guys coaching today. This is even more ridiculous. In a league with dog killers, wife beaters, drunk drivers - you think all of the NFL skipped right over a guy they thought could help them win because he was too old? Could it be maybe they had a look at this record with Eli and thought that even in better times he was a good coach but had lost some off his fastball? He didn't get another job because he stopped being a good coach. It happens.

I won’t attribute it all to his age, you’re right coughlin was struggling to win I myself kind of caved and understood letting coughlin walk, but it was and is easy to second guess. Especially when you factor in his replacement and how talent deficient that 2014-2015 team truly was. I still don’t think people acknowledge this nearly enough. Those defenses weren’t winning games. Not with anyone.

I just respect him for the man he is and he did adapt .
They should have cleaned house at that point and got rid
of Reese right along with him.
TC is a class act and a great humanitarian despite his blemishes and a few curious mistakes . H brought two Lombardi's and some of the best SB games in history .

lost six games where they took the lead or tied the game in the final two minutes.

The defense could not hold, and everybody knew it, including Tom Coughlin. That had to complicate his game management decisions.

but not to fire Reese at the same time and then replacing Coughlin with what Green Bay described McAdoo as the class clown.

In comment 14065291 Britt in VA said:

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lost six games where they took the lead or tied the game in the final two minutes.

Not true at all. In several of those close games the Giants offense did not take the lead or tie the game in the final two.

And, despite everything, the chance to win the division was there if the offense had shown up in winnable games

In comment 14065327 shyster said:

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In comment 14065291 Britt in VA said: Quote: lost six games where they took the lead or tied the game in the final two minutes. Not true at all. In several of those close games the Giants offense did not take the lead or tie the game in the final two. And, despite everything, the chance to win the division was there if the offense had shown up in winnable games

It absolutely is true. Here's an article on it from December 2015. And they had one more after that.

Link - ( New Window )

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The Giants 2015 season was plagued by their inability to close out games, as the Giants lost 6 games in which they held leads or were tied within the final 2 minutes of the games. These losses included their opening game in Dallas, their home opener against the Falcons, a road loss in New Orleans and 2 home defeats against the Patriots and the Jets. Had the Giants won these games, they would've been 11-5 and would've won the NFC East.

Link - ( New Window )

obvious.

For example the Jets game lost in OT was a close game but it wasn't a game the Giants tied or took the lead in the final two.

The Giants never scored after halftime and seven of their 20 points were from a punt return.

I did not believe he was the problem at all. However, after 2015, I conceded that he was part of the reason we had that dismal season. His coaching in-game and with personnel decisions cost them games. But, I only felt he should have been fired if Reese was also fired. Reese was, ion my opinion, the primary reason the Giants were on the decline. His drafts and FA moves for more than a couple of seasons were awful.

So when Reese remained, I was pissed. When Reese remained and we hired someone who barely had gotten his feet wet as an NFL coach I was more pissed. The success we had in 2016 had very little to do McAdoo, in my opinion, but rather a lot to do with the personnel acquired on D. The regression in 2017, again in my opinion, had a ton to do with the absolutely awful coaching staff (the entire staff) and again a terrible job by the GM. The final outcome of both being fired, along with most of the staff I support 100%.

He should have been gone in 2013 or 2014. There becomes a time when the message becomes old and stale and the players aren't listening. It doesn't mean he couldn't coach, just his program had run its course. Now Reese and Ross should have been shown the door with TC. Those two gave him a shit roster that was and still is extremely thin. Blowing money on mediocre players to fill roster depth is a terrible way to build a winning program. Reese and Ross' mismanagement will hurt the team for the next two years at least.

The best thing for both TC and the Giants was that he was fired. It's just a shame the team didn't have the balls to do the same with Ross and Reese at the same time

From my perspective, there were a lot of us who wanted Tom to stay. We knew the problem was the GM. And we knew it three years before TC was let go when the Giants STILL could not get enough good talent on the Oline!

But forget the Handley-Reeves-Fassell years. It was incredibly stupid to exit Coughlin off the premises using his head to open the f*cking door without having some good coaching candidates in mind.

Should have just let <insert Gruden, Saban, Cohwer name here> taken over as GM/coach.

Three straight losing seasons, four seasons in a row of no playoffs. The problem was hiring McAdouche to replace TC. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see how much of a steaming pile of crap McAdoo's offense was while Coughlin was still around, because TC still had his imprint on the design despite BM being the offensive coordinator.

with the entire coaching staff and the entire front office. Most of the mess the Giants became after 2011 was because of Tom Coughlin getting old and the Mara's trying to protect him and prop him up. They're doing the same thing with Eli Manning now. In the last 5 years the Giants have been as mismanged as the mid 70's.

look how theve faired since hes been gone, last year was a train wreck, the locker room unravelled quick, the play calling was atrocious, no coughlin should not have been let go, look hows hes help build on jacksonville, i know its a different role but the guy knows what hes doing. dumb move then, dumb move now.

At a minimum not firing Marc Ross at the same time of before Coughlin was inexcusable.

At the time I wanted TC to stay with the organization and take over Mara's role, but realized that was not feasible as Mara was not going to fire himself.

Unfortunately, we've since learned that he'd have been a far better GM than Reese.

TC fired and was shocked that it actually happened. I really didn't think they would do it right until the day it happened. My rationale at the time (and it still is) was that it was very risky to go with an unproven head coach when Eli only had a few years left. BM was a clear bust. We'll see how Shurmur works out. Shurmur has no track record of success as a HC, so we will just have to wait to see if he is any good. I would have put my money on TC eventually turning things around over most others because he was an above average HC - a two-time super bowl winner - but it's all speculative and water under the bridge at this point. It doesn't matter now.